Author Topic: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.  (Read 2430 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #116 on: August 26, 2014, 09:53:14 AM »
If atheists believe in free will, has any of them ever explained where free will came from?

How would the fact that it's an atheist making the claim make the issue any more or less relevant? Has any theist explained how their god(s)'s powers work? In fact, has any theist ever explained anything supernatural?
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #117 on: August 26, 2014, 09:58:01 AM »
free will in xtian philosophy begins with what they call "original sin"...

And this is where most atheists get off the bus. Because in order to accept original sin as valid, you have to believe that Adam and Eve and a talking snake existed. Without a literal Eden, fruit and temper, then Jesus Christ died on the cross to atone for a metaphor.
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #118 on: August 26, 2014, 10:09:19 AM »
If atheists believe in free will, has any of them ever explained where free will came from?

Not in any satisfactory manner, no.  Compatibilism[1] is one view that Daniel Dennett pushes, but it largely boils down to a semantic argument - which isn't really a problem actually, because I think semantics is one of more difficult problems involving any discussion of 'free will'.  I remember reading Sam Harris' Free Will, and remember asking myself what exactly Sam Harris was arguing.  He takes the position that there is no free will, and then goes on to argue...ish why compatibilism is an incorrect view of free will, but from what I got, his argument essentially boiled down to 'and what compatibilism calls free will ain't free will'[2].

Some people will cite natural uncertainty per quantum mechanical models as the mechanism for 'free will', but that's unsatisfactory insofar as all that provides is a mechanism for unpredictability.  And unpredictability is a feature of 'free will', but I don't think is a sufficient property for some...thingie?  behavior?...to be called 'free will'.  Or, rather, just because an entity is unpredictable does not necessarily mean it is a free agent.

So I think most conversations around 'free will', at least among those that accept 'free will' as an actual thingie or phenomenon[3], revolve around trying to nail down precisely what everyone means with the phrase 'free will'.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compatibilism
 2. It's been a long time since I've read it...or, frankly, done any deep thinking regarding free will, so my memory of what Harris' work says is somewhat suspect.  Take with a grain or 9 of salt.
 3. As opposed to an observed set of behaviors and characteristics that leads one to label someone/thing as an entity possessing free will - a label used to describe an ill-defined emergent phenomenon
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #119 on: August 26, 2014, 10:28:42 AM »
free will in xtian philosophy begins with what they call "original sin"...

And this is where most atheists get off the bus. Because in order to accept original sin as valid, you have to believe that Adam and Eve and a talking snake existed. Without a literal Eden, fruit and temper, then Jesus Christ died on the cross to atone for a metaphor.

if the fruit represents human nature and the snake represents evil, then christ died to redeem man and save humanity from its own selfish desire... (or something like that) it's not that hard to get the metaphor... but i agree, if you are "bible literalistic" then talking animals become an issue.   
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #120 on: August 26, 2014, 10:45:24 AM »
if the fruit represents human nature and the snake represents evil, then christ died to redeem man and save humanity from its own selfish desire... (or something like that) it's not that hard to get the metaphor... but i agree, if you are "bible literalistic" then talking animals become an issue.

Paul has a bone to pick with people that believe that. And for people with those beliefs, is Jesus also a metaphor for salvation? Did a man not really die on a cross for sin? And how do they explain the genealogies linking Adam to Jesus?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #121 on: August 26, 2014, 11:18:46 AM »
I have been thinking about that issue about the metaphor vs literal.

If we Christians believe it's literal, then we get called insane for believing it.

If we believe it's a metaphor, then we get called insane for not believing it's literally true.

Isn't that a logical fallacy of some kind by the atheists?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #122 on: August 26, 2014, 11:24:49 AM »
If we believe it's a metaphor, then we get called insane for not believing it's literally true.

Who called you insane for not believing in it? Citation needed.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #123 on: August 26, 2014, 11:25:19 AM »
How would the fact that it's an atheist making the claim make the issue any more or less relevant? Has any theist explained how their god(s)'s powers work? In fact, has any theist ever explained anything supernatural?

Excellent point. Both sides can't do it.

On the atheistic side, you have to say, "atoms were always there with the power to do what they do. It just is that way."

On the Christian side, we have to say, "God was always there with the power to do what he does. It just is that way."

I guess it's a wash for both sides.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #124 on: August 26, 2014, 11:26:36 AM »
skeptic, there are inconsistencies with both interpretations that make them invalid. Believing in either interpretation doesn't make a person insane. I'm not sure any atheist here has said that, and if they have they are wrong. The question then is what do we call a person that wholeheartedly believes something is true when they are unable to address the inconsistencies in their beliefs?
Leave nothing to chance. Overlook nothing. Combine contradictory observations. Allow yourself enough time. -Hippocrates of Cos

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #125 on: August 26, 2014, 11:33:52 AM »
if the fruit represents human nature and the snake represents evil, then christ died to redeem man and save humanity from its own selfish desire... (or something like that) it's not that hard to get the metaphor... but i agree, if you are "bible literalistic" then talking animals become an issue.

Paul has a bone to pick with people that believe that. And for people with those beliefs, is Jesus also a metaphor for salvation? Did a man not really die on a cross for sin? And how do they explain the genealogies linking Adam to Jesus?

paul was a philosophizer of sorts, like his contemporaries in hellenism... to me, the ancient scriptures are philosophical and don't really come across as "scientific literature"...
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #126 on: August 26, 2014, 11:41:26 AM »
Excellent point. Both sides can't do it.

On the atheistic side, you have to say, "atoms were always there with the power to do what they do. It just is that way."

Yeah... no. The naturalistic (naturalism=/=atheism) explanation for free will can be a long list of things, though it will most likely not make sense. You've gone beyond the realm of false dichotomy and went into the land of strawmen.

On the Christian side, we have to say, "God was always there with the power to do what he does. It just is that way."

You can literally say whatever you want, but there won't ever be any evidence whatsoever.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #127 on: August 26, 2014, 11:43:26 AM »
If atheists believe in free will, has any of them ever explained where free will came from?

It is inherent in our DNA as it adds to our survival skills. Some call it our selfish gene.

Have a look at how it expresses itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Regards
DL



Offline One Above All

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #128 on: August 26, 2014, 11:47:49 AM »
<snip>

Stringing a bunch of science-related words together doesn't make your point true.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #129 on: August 26, 2014, 11:50:04 AM »
If atheists believe in free will, has any of them ever explained where free will came from?

Your idea of free will would have to be defined but let me as a more direct question.

Do threats or coercion negate free will?

For instance, if I hold a gun to your head and say, do not move or I will kill you, do you still have a free will to either move or not?

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DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #130 on: August 26, 2014, 11:51:28 AM »
<snip>

Stringing a bunch of science-related words together doesn't make your point true.

True but a complaint about the wording does not refute the findings.

Regards
DL

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #131 on: August 26, 2014, 11:52:38 AM »
Do you realize that doing meta-analyses of large amounts of data can take ten years or longer?
Yes, some of them can. Others are right here to pick up for anyone who want to look for the truth.

And that when gathering longitudinal data, time frames much longer than 10 years are standard? And you can also find and predict data trends even with data that is ten years old or older?
That is not correct. Could you send me in pm (since we are not discussing data collection here) supporting your claims. Let's say a study of longitudinal data made 10 years ago supporting a study made 20 years ago.

Further, there are LOADS of good data out there on any topic you want, if you actually want to look for it.
Yeah, I don't want to look for things that you guys should have looked for before claiming things like women in the work force are abused.
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #132 on: August 26, 2014, 11:57:41 AM »
free will in xtian philosophy begins with what they call "original sin"...

And this is where most atheists get off the bus. Because in order to accept original sin as valid, you have to believe that Adam and Eve and a talking snake existed. Without a literal Eden, fruit and temper, then Jesus Christ died on the cross to atone for a metaphor.

if the fruit represents human nature and the snake represents evil, then christ died to redeem man and save humanity from its own selfish desire... (or something like that) it's not that hard to get the metaphor... but i agree, if you are "bible literalistic" then talking animals become an issue.

Especially when to believe in Jesus or his God, you have to read at least some of the bible literally.

Otherwise, Jesus cannot exist in a literal way because that book of myths is the only place where his story is told.

It is hard not to be a literalist Christian if not impossible. Right?

Regards
DL

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #133 on: August 26, 2014, 11:57:53 AM »
About the subject at hand "Women. Religion’s longest running victims."
I hope there is something that should be made clear. Religion is not the one creating the victims. It's the people misinterpreting the Religion who does that. Of course it only when we talk about the 3 classics religions Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. There are many other religions that should not be compared here because of their insignificant role in humanity.
These Religion teaches you equality among everyone. If you don't learn the lesson well you are bound to make mistakes. And some mistakes are made, I give you that.
We shouldn't blame religion but the makers of the mistakes.
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Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #134 on: August 26, 2014, 12:00:45 PM »
if the fruit represents human nature and the snake represents evil, then christ died to redeem man and save humanity from its own selfish desire... (or something like that) it's not that hard to get the metaphor... but i agree, if you are "bible literalistic" then talking animals become an issue.

Paul has a bone to pick with people that believe that. And for people with those beliefs, is Jesus also a metaphor for salvation? Did a man not really die on a cross for sin? And how do they explain the genealogies linking Adam to Jesus?

It is quite hard for Jesus, who was to be of the house of David, if his father was God.

The line follows the male in those days but some Christians say it transferred to Mary somehow.

When your theology is based on lies it is easy to just keep lying.

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DL

Offline One Above All

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #135 on: August 26, 2014, 12:02:20 PM »
True but a complaint about the wording does not refute the findings.

Also true. The fact that the words have nothing to do with free will, together with the fact that the words were used as an introduction to the findings, however, does.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #136 on: August 26, 2014, 12:04:30 PM »
How would the fact that it's an atheist making the claim make the issue any more or less relevant? Has any theist explained how their god(s)'s powers work? In fact, has any theist ever explained anything supernatural?

Excellent point. Both sides can't do it.

On the atheistic side, you have to say, "atoms were always there with the power to do what they do. It just is that way."

On the Christian side, we have to say, "God was always there with the power to do what he does. It just is that way."

I guess it's a wash for both sides.

Except that your God of the Gaps promises to send the vast majority of us to hell and death just for not believing in his absentee self.

We also see atoms. Your God only speaks through men while atoms are apparent everywhere, no man required.

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DL

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #137 on: August 26, 2014, 12:05:49 PM »
True but a complaint about the wording does not refute the findings.

Also true. The fact that the words have nothing to do with free will, together with the fact that the words were used as an introduction to the findings, however, does.

If you do not see that baby showing a free will then you are not worth my time.

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DL

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #138 on: August 26, 2014, 12:08:15 PM »
when we talk about the 3 classics religions Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.

wouldn't that be christianity, islam & judaism...?
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #139 on: August 26, 2014, 12:10:55 PM »
If you do not see that baby showing a free will then you are not worth my time.

Just "a" free will? Is there more than one? Or is it a different type? If you're really talking about babies - you know, the humans at such an early stage of development that they don't qualify as sentient and act purely on instinct - I'd really like to know what definition of "free will" you're using.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Greatest I am

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #140 on: August 26, 2014, 12:14:01 PM »
About the subject at hand "Women. Religion’s longest running victims."
I hope there is something that should be made clear. Religion is not the one creating the victims. It's the people misinterpreting the Religion who does that. Of course it only when we talk about the 3 classics religions Christianity, Islam and Hinduism. There are many other religions that should not be compared here because of their insignificant role in humanity.
These Religion teaches you equality among everyone. If you don't learn the lesson well you are bound to make mistakes. And some mistakes are made, I give you that.
We shouldn't blame religion but the makers of the mistakes.

Analogy time.

We should not blame the S.S., but only Hitler, the maker of the mistake.

Your foolish remark is like saying that the leader you elect bears all the blame for what he does and those who elected him have nothing to repent for.

Shifting responsibility to a scapegoat is a Christian thing and here you are doing the same.

That is why women are still oppressed in this modern age. Because men will not step up to their mistakes and keep trying to shift the blame elsewhere.

Regards
DL
 

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #141 on: August 26, 2014, 12:20:17 PM »
Paul has a bone to pick with people that believe that. And for people with those beliefs, is Jesus also a metaphor for salvation? Did a man not really die on a cross for sin? And how do they explain the genealogies linking Adam to Jesus?

not sure on the genealogies question, but i did find this if anyone is interested...

http://christianity.about.com/od/biblefactsandlists/a/jesusgenealogy.htm

otherwise, it is my experience that people who reject christianity, typically reject the historicity of jesus as well.
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #142 on: August 26, 2014, 12:40:03 PM »
Analogy time.

We should not blame the S.S., but only Hitler, the maker of the mistake.

Your foolish remark is like saying that the leader you elect bears all the blame for what he does and those who elected him have nothing to repent for.

Shifting responsibility to a scapegoat is a Christian thing and here you are doing the same.

That is why women are still oppressed in this modern age. Because men will not step up to their mistakes and keep trying to shift the blame elsewhere.

Regards
DL

wait, what...?  that's a very poor analogy.  philosophical worldviews vary significantly, even within the same overarching idea.  to say that the SS represents xtians and that hitler represents their philosophical worldview is absurd.  and furthermore, shifting blame is hardly a tenet of christianity... in fact the xtian doctrine teaches the exact opposite; to take personal responsibility.  and if men are the true oppressors of women, i agree that they (men) should step up and right this wrong.  however, from a evolutionary view, one could argue that this is the role men have evolved into, the dominate role. 
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

-Jonathan Swift

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #143 on: August 26, 2014, 12:55:01 PM »
frank, so here's the main issue:

If the genealogy from Adam to Jesus is allegorical and only demonstrates Jesus' relationship with original sin, then when did the Fall of Man occur? Since Adam and Eve and the Garden never actually existed then when exactly did the fall happen? Can we pin point it? The metaphorical story tells us we became corrupt and sinful creatures. Well at what point in the history of human evolution did it happen? Did it happen to homo hablis 2,000,000 years ago? Did homo erectus fall 1,500,000 years ago? Did homo sapiens get corrupted 200,000 years ago? And how exactly did the species become fallen?

If the Fall of Man event never happened, then we can toss the concept of sin out the window and the Christian philosophy of sin and free will is invalid.

Edit: I just realized how far off we are from the OP. frank we can discuss this in another thread if you want.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2014, 12:57:14 PM by Zankuu »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Women. Religion’s longest running victims.
« Reply #144 on: August 26, 2014, 01:34:21 PM »
when we talk about the 3 classics religions Christianity, Islam and Hinduism.
wouldn't that be christianity, islam & judaism...?
Nope Judaism is 6th. It comes after 4.Buddhism and 5.Sikhism
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