Author Topic: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion  (Read 6233 times)

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Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2008, 07:45:26 AM »
False, atheism carries no set of beliefs or practices.  Atheism itself is not even a belief, it is the passive description of lacking belief in a god or gods.

False. You cannot prove god does not exist. So the best thing you can do is BELIEVE it does not exist. Therefore atheism is a belief that there is no god.
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Pastafarian

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2008, 07:47:24 AM »
OK, did you miss the bit about words being our servants, not the other way around?
Can you answer my questions please?
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Offline Omen

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2008, 07:50:24 AM »
False, atheism carries no set of beliefs or practices.  Atheism itself is not even a belief, it is the passive description of lacking belief in a god or gods.

False. You cannot prove god does not exist. So the best thing you can do is BELIEVE it does not exist. Therefore atheism is a belief that there is no god.

I do not have to prove something does not exist in order not to believe in it.  That is not the same as saying,"It does not exist."  More simply, not believing your claim is not the same as believing your claim is false.

There will never come a time where logically anyone would have to disprove what cannot be proven, in order not to believe said conclusion.  The only inevitable default position is the lack of the claim itself, the claim being 'theism' or god belief.  The same would be equally true for claiming there is no god or gods, but that is not the literal equivalent of non-belief in a god or gods.  Belief and knowledge are entirely two seperate things and we treat them seperately on virtually every issue.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #61 on: July 31, 2008, 07:51:38 AM »
OK, did you miss the bit about words being our servants, not the other way around?

What does that have to do with the said fact?


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Can you answer my questions please?

You'll have to be more specific, which question was that?
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Omen

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2008, 07:54:55 AM »
If you have a problem with how someone may identify themselves in a context, then address that context do not simply make up new definitions to pre-concieved bigoted assumptions.

Always so patient and dispassionate. :)
Well said, this is one of the reasons I prefer not to call myself an atheist (no capital "A"). There is a video on dawkins.net of Sam Harris speaking at the atheist alliance conference on this subject. He makes a very good case for not labeling ourselves except to say that we follow reason and evidence.

I love to tell theist that 'atheism' is the most irrelevant thing about me, but unfortunately most are to concerned with demonizing through labels and their own preconcieved notions to even get around that passive approach.  Notice void, who even after we point out that we as individuals likely use a different definition then his own - still insists on addressing us through his definition that does not appropriately apply to us or our use.  He seems to want to not only define us, but also talk for us and at us - about us.  Is there really a purpose of in continuing discussion with such an individual?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2008, 07:59:29 AM »
I do not have to prove something does not exist in order not to believe in it.  That is not the same as saying,"It does not exist."  More simply, not believing your claim is not the same as believing your claim is false.

Actually you're wrong. Not believing in something EQUATES to believing it does not exist or is false. It is in the base of how human mind works. It learns from the environment. Entire human experience in based on beliefs. You are "forced" to believe your senses because you have no other way to "directly" experience reality. And sometimes the senses lie, as evident in sensory and perception illusions. But that is irrelevant. The point is, all you, your mind or your brain knows is based on belief that the information gathered about it is true.

Therefore, not believing in god is believing it does not exist, and the belief is based on information you have about the reality, and your own conclusion based on the information.
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Pastafarian

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2008, 08:03:44 AM »
These statements, while they mean the same thing, lead to different places: I don't believe that Elvis is still alive/ i believe (insert rabid tele-evangelist accent) that Elvis is not alive. You choose the second phrase to say that lack of belief equals belief in the negative. It's disingenuous and not in the spirit of understanding.

There is no term for NOT being a racist or NOT believing Elvis is alive! So you can take "atheist" and shove it as well, thank you very much: it leads to bigotry and a whole set of presumptions, whereas you have no idea what I believe, only a little of what I don't. Does that help?

Here:http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=272.msg6018#msg6018
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Offline Omen

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2008, 08:06:17 AM »
Actually you're wrong. Not believing in something EQUATES to believing it does not exist or is false. It is in the base of how human mind works. It learns from the environment. Entire human experience in based on beliefs. You are "forced" to believe your senses because you have no other way to "directly" experience reality. And sometimes the senses lie, as evident in sensory and perception illusions. But that is irrelevant. The point is, all you, your mind or your brain knows is based on belief that the information gathered about it is true.

Therefore, not believing in god is believing it does not exist, and the belief is based on information you have about the reality, and your own conclusion based on the information.

False, there could very well be a god or gods yet I still do not believe in a god or gods.  Knowledge and belief are seperate in terms of how know something and what we believe from that information.

I noticed you omitted this:
"There will never come a time where logically anyone would have to disprove what cannot be proven, in order not to believe said conclusion.  The only inevitable default position is the lack of the claim itself, the claim being 'theism' or god belief.  The same would be equally true for claiming there is no god or gods, but that is not the literal equivalent of non-belief in a god or gods.  Belief and knowledge are entirely two seperate things and we treat them seperately on virtually every issue."
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2008, 08:14:32 AM »
You choose the second phrase to say that lack of belief equals belief in the negative. It's disingenuous and not in the spirit of understanding.

Quite to the contrary, lack of belief in general means you have no opinion on the subject. In the current context that means agnostic. Are you agnostic? But that is not what we're discussing here. Were discussing people falling into Atheist category, ie. those that have a belief that there is no god.

Then again, someone going at great lengths to show me why god does not / cannot exist etc, is not agnostic. That person has a (strong) belief that god does not exist, and therefore atheism IS a belief.

Let's not forget the whole premise of this discussion. Atheism IS a belief system. If you don't have a belief about god, ie. you are indecisive, you are not atheist, you're agnostic at best. Otherwise you either believe god DOES exist or god DOESN'T exist, to various degrees of "truthness" of either assumption.

I believe that also answers your question.
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Pastafarian

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2008, 08:18:10 AM »
No it doesn't. Answer the questions.
Don't pin that on jesus! He has enough nail holes as it is - House

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2008, 08:19:42 AM »
False, there could very well be a god or gods yet I still do not believe in a god or gods.  Knowledge and belief are seperate in terms of how know something and what we believe from that information.

False. There is no knowledge without belief. Your brain synapses do not form automagically to store information you "know" about something. You must have learned that information and believed the source is true, hence it is based on belief. Without it, there is no knowledge.
 

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I noticed you omitted this:
"There will never come a time where logically anyone would have to disprove what cannot be proven, in order not to believe said conclusion.  The only inevitable default position is the lack of the claim itself, the claim being 'theism' or god belief.  The same would be equally true for claiming there is no god or gods, but that is not the literal equivalent of non-belief in a god or gods.  Belief and knowledge are entirely two seperate things and we treat them seperately on virtually every issue."

That does not apply to the current discussion. Either you:

1. Believe in god and are a theist
2. Believe there is no god and are atheist
3. Believe various degrees of both and or something else at the same time (agnostic or something else)
4. Are not sure and / or do not have a formed opinion (agnostic or something else)

A person falling under categories in 3 and 4 does not go at great lengths to affirm atheism.
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2008, 08:24:17 AM »
No it doesn't. Answer the questions.

Ok, I guess I have to draw it to you. Very well:

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Not believing in elvis still being alive also a religion? mmmm?

If Elvis falls under the category of supernatural, as given by the definition of religion up above, then yes. It is obvious that you do not even know what a religion is, otherwise you would not ask this stupid question that bears absolutely no relevance to the topic of Atheism being a religion.

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Are you a buddist/thorist etc... because of your religulous reasoning?

Depends on what your religious beliefs and declarations are. Having religious beliefs does not automagically make you belong to a major organized religion. Note that organized religion does not equate to the definition of religion. The latter is a concept the former is (physical) implementation thereof.
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Omen

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2008, 08:28:07 AM »
False, there could very well be a god or gods yet I still do not believe in a god or gods.  Knowledge and belief are seperate in terms of how know something and what we believe from that information.

False. There is no knowledge without belief. Your brain synapses do not form automagically to store information you "know" about something. You must have learned that information and believed the source is true, hence it is based on belief. Without it, there is no knowledge.

A person that has never heard of a god or gods, still doesn't believe in a god or gods.  Regardless of knowing what they are, and not believing in them.

Just as there could very well be a god or gods, yet I do not believe in a god or gods because the claim itself does not demonstrate that there is a god or gods.  The lack of belief in a claim is not the equivalent to the belief the claim is true.

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Quote
I noticed you omitted this:
"There will never come a time where logically anyone would have to disprove what cannot be proven, in order not to believe said conclusion.  The only inevitable default position is the lack of the claim itself, the claim being 'theism' or god belief.  The same would be equally true for claiming there is no god or gods, but that is not the literal equivalent of non-belief in a god or gods.  Belief and knowledge are entirely two seperate things and we treat them seperately on virtually every issue."

That does not apply to the current discussion. Either you:

1. Believe in god and are a theist
2. Believe there is no god and are atheist
3. Believe various degrees of both and or something else at the same time (agnostic or something else)
4. Are not sure and / or do not have a formed opinion (agnostic or something else)

A person falling under categories in 3 and 4 does not go at great lengths to affirm atheism.

False.

An agnostic can at any time answer the question: Do you have a god belief?

The question itself is purely limited to a yes/no answer, and agnosticism as a stand alone entity is more or less a fallacy of the middle ground.  The break down of belief occurs in the following pattern:

Gnostic-Theism: Believing there are gods and claiming to know.
Agnostic-Theism: Not knowing, yet believing in a god.
Agnostic-Atheism: Not knowing, yet not believing in a god.
Gnostic-Atheism: Believing there are no gods and claiming to know.

Virtually every single atheist on this board addresses belief in this manner and if you are going to bother talking for us, at us, and about us - then I insist you actually use the context that applies to us or there is no communication that can occur that will not de-evolve back into this semantical nonsense.

Atheism is literally ( a from greek meaning without ) and theism ( meaning doctrine of god belief ); without or lacking a doctrine of god belief.
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #71 on: July 31, 2008, 08:48:22 AM »

I hope you realize that all you listed actually falls under my #3 category? And neither assumes lack of belief due no exposure to the belief in the first place?

Which is in itself a non-sequitur. Belief in god or belief there is no god is completely meaningless to someone never exposed to the concept of god. Trying to fit that into this model is like trying to do a division by zero!
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Omen

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #72 on: July 31, 2008, 08:58:25 AM »

I hope you realize that all you listed actually falls under my #3 category? And neither assumes lack of belief due no exposure to the belief in the first place?

Which is in itself a non-sequitur. Belief in god or belief there is no god is completely meaningless to someone never exposed to the concept of god. Trying to fit that into this model is like trying to do a division by zero!

And it demonstrates that belief and knowledge are seperate, just like not knowing there is a god or not is seperate from lacking belief in a god or gods, and just like an agnostic cannot avoid the question: Do you have a god belief?

Lacking belief in the claim is not equivalent to knowing the claim is false.

Nor is 'theism' defended or comparable to the lack of theism, by claiming one cannot disprove what cannot be proven.  Because there will never come a time in which logic dictates that I have to disprove what cannot be proven.  The burden of proof is inescapably upon the theist, you're just attempting to shift the burden of proof and appealing in very clunky terms to a middle ground you cannot justify because you yourself cannot avoid the question:

Do you have a god belief?
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline essgeeskee

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #73 on: July 31, 2008, 09:19:44 AM »

Yes it is. It is also organized religion, and it has a church: http://firstchurchofatheism.com/


If you think that Atheism is a religion, then this video will really enlighten you:

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"Follow your intuition!"

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #74 on: July 31, 2008, 09:23:02 AM »
Void is aptly named.

Offline Codswallop

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #75 on: July 31, 2008, 09:26:41 AM »
Atheism is not a religion.

Yes it is. It is also organized religion, and it has a church


Wow. I've been reading your posts for a while, and I actually thought you had a lot on the ball until you came out with this. I am staggered by the assertion.

To borrow a phrase (that I have used a few times recently), "Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."





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Offline benji

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #76 on: July 31, 2008, 11:28:51 AM »
Void is aptly named.
George, I beat you to it. Check reply #54.

Offline Vynn

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #77 on: July 31, 2008, 11:38:39 AM »
Atheism is not a religion.

Yes it is. It is also organized religion, and it has a church: http://firstchurchofatheism.com/



Ah, yes, the web link that proves atheism is a religion, just like the web link in this post of yours that proved math to be suspect.  ;D

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #78 on: July 31, 2008, 11:53:03 AM »

LOL, not only is atheism a religion with its own churches, but they also take donations in another thread!
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Vynn

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #79 on: July 31, 2008, 11:57:56 AM »
LOL, not only is atheism a religion with its own churches,

Lol, a naked assertion!


but they also take donations in another thread!

Oh, and you've proved that any group which accepts donations is a religion, have you?

Let me guess, you doubt i'd understand, yes?

Offline Operator_011

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #80 on: July 31, 2008, 01:51:14 PM »
@everyone: Please stop the personal attacks.

Void, perhaps you can address the issue of whether or not Atheism is a religion in another thread? As to the subject of this thread, are you saying that each and every reason for not believing in God (as listed here) are rendered invalid by your worldview? In which case, I think you had better fully explain said worldview, otherwise there can be no further debate. Comments like this:

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I might answer that, but I doubt you would understand.

Aren't conducive to good-natured communication. If you are up to the challenge of explaining, then I'm sure the members here can rise to the challenge of understanding.

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Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #81 on: July 31, 2008, 02:10:15 PM »
@everyone: Please stop the personal attacks.

Void, perhaps you can address the issue of whether or not Atheism is a religion in another thread?

Well, personally I don't care. If I were an Atheist it would not bother me if someone stated the obvious saying that atheism is a religion. It all boils down to priorities. What is important to an atheist? That atheism is or isn't religion? That there is no god? That organized religions should be taken out of the focus of everyday life? All of the above?

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As to the subject of this thread, are you saying that each and every reason for not believing in God (as listed here) are rendered invalid by your worldview? In which case, I think you had better fully explain said worldview, otherwise there can be no further debate.

I still stand by what I originally said, that the list applies to major organized religions, and not to religions in general. Because generalization is really, really bad and leads to lots of evils. Ignorance breeds fear and all that. I think I was being pretty clear on why I think that. Of course, was immediately ridiculed but that is only because of the following.

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Aren't conducive to good-natured communication. If you are up to the challenge of explaining, then I'm sure the members here can rise to the challenge of understanding.

Agreed, though sometimes the obvious must be stated since the alternative answer is either ignoring, or ad-hominem.
--There are greater idiots than those interpreting the bible literally to prove god. Those interpreting the bible literally to deny god.

Offline Pastafarian

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #82 on: July 31, 2008, 02:57:15 PM »
This is a waste of time because you think you know what an "atheist" should think and feel and then proceed to get on your high horse and pretend that the reason everyone is disagreeing with you, over their own position no less (bluddy hell), is that because everyone is not smart enough to "get it". We get it. You are just not correct in your (bluddy hell) description of us.

There are reasons people feel so strongly about it as well. I have given you at least one of my own. What is your reason to feel so strongly about putting me in a box?

Do you not see what people are trying to tell you? or is this just a silly little game of formal logic and words to you? If so, that's fine, but a waste of my time in this case, and most others, because it leads to intellectual dishonesty and frustration. I come here to play hard, not play around. Most of the time anyway. Start a chillaxing thread for that.
Don't pin that on jesus! He has enough nail holes as it is - House

Offline Vynn

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2008, 02:59:39 PM »
What is your reason to feel so strongly about putting me in a box?


You better hope that next week he doesn't try to put you in a nutshell!! Have you seen how TINY those things are?

Offline Void

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #84 on: July 31, 2008, 03:00:55 PM »
Waste of your time?! LoL DRAMA! What, am I keeping you chained to your keyboard, ordering you at gunpoint to participate in these threads? C'mon, srsly!

Besides, what makes you think I was never an atheist? What makes you think you know how many religions I experienced in my life, and which were those, just because I don't advertise that? I was an atheist so uh I really do know what an atheist thinks.
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Offline Vynn

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #85 on: July 31, 2008, 03:03:22 PM »
I was an atheist so uh I really do know what an atheist thinks.


Similarly,
I was a welder, so i know what welders think. <---- Poor logic.


Offline Pastafarian

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Re: Reasons for not believing in God/Religion
« Reply #86 on: July 31, 2008, 03:10:20 PM »

If Elvis falls under the category of supernatural, as given by the definition of religion up above, then yes. It is obvious that you do not even know what a religion is, otherwise you would not ask this stupid question that bears absolutely no relevance to the topic of Atheism being a religion.

So let me get this straight. Seriously, no sarcasm. You say that believing that elvis is alive is a religion because it is outside the realms of possibility, hence supernatural? Is believing in santa a religion?

Oh and if you do, why is it irrelevant to your assertion that the lack of supernatural beliefs is a religion? And when you said "yes it is", are you asserting that the lack of belief in a living Elvis is a religion? Because that was my question. Not whether elvis belief is a religion. Are you comfortable writing "a-elvisist" in a "religion" preference box? Does your lack of belief in elvis being alive define you?

Answer them all.Take them one by one, pictures are fine by me.

I subscribe to reason and evidence. That's it. Not hard to understand if you don't believe in the supernatural, pretty damn near impossible for those that do.
Don't pin that on jesus! He has enough nail holes as it is - House