Ok here is the thing. You say "believe or go to hell" that is right but only at the moment of your death. You are able to not believe all you life and believe just at the moment of your death (which is paradoxically eternity) and go to heaven. As you understand someone meeting with God would be pretty silly to not want to believe in him. But they still exist people who do not want to meet god, these people do not believe hence to to hell.
I really don’t care what excuses you want to make, you really don’t know that your excuses are actually true. You just want them to be true. The only thing that matters (which is all I care about) is that indeed the Catholic Church teaches “believe or go to hell”. All the fluff you choose to add after the fact is irrelevant as they are just excuses to justify the ultimatum and your beliefs. I think this discussion is done. I’m not really interested in reading more of your excuses (I’ve heard and read them all before multiple times throughout my life).
You got 4 possible conclusions in this scenario which was created by your religion:1. This is avoiding your responsibilities. would you blame the gun's constructor because he made the gun you used to kill yourself? In a way, he is responsible for your death.
1. Your god is responsible for sending people to hell and thus is a malevolent god.
2. Your religion is wrong and your god accepts those who don’t believe in “Jesus/God” into heaven, thus you would no longer be a Christian
3. Your religion is wrong and your god did not create the universe and for some reason is incapable of avoiding the ultimatum, thus you would no longer be a Christian and your god is impotent.
4. Your religion is wrong because there is no god and thus the ultimatum is an illusion meant to manipulate people into following the religion.
Where did I say we are not responsible or we are avoiding our responsibilities? Maybe we are responsible, although how responsible are we if we are given ultimatums. How much responsibility we have is irrelevant, we do or we do not have responsibility, it doesn’t matter. THE POINT is that your god IS responsible and THAT is what you are trying to avoid. If you believe we are responsible, do you also believe that your god shares equally in the responsibility? I don’t think that you do, and that is the problem. You seek to absolve your god of any responsibility because your god isn’t real and things that aren’t real can’t have responsibility.
Regarding the gun manufacturer, yes, the gun manufacturer is partially responsible for the violence that their product is a part of. Are they completely responsible? No, obviously those who commit the violence with the guns have the large share of the responsibility. The thing about guns is that they are part of the society that accepts them, so the entire society is responsible in some part. Only those who actively seek to abolish guns can be considered to be absolved of gun violence. I personally do not own a gun, nor do I support any pro-gun causes but I don’t do enough to be absolved of at least partial responsibility as a member of society which accepts gun violence.
Your response to optional conclusion number 1 is nothing more than an attempt to shift the focus away from the point.
2. God accept those who did not believe during their lives, as long as they believe after.
Which completely misses the point. Are you willfully missing the point? For fucks sake, I would bet you are now thinking after reading that question that I am missing your point. No, I know what your point is, I understand that your religion teaches that your god is accepting of those who didn’t believe (all they need to do is believe). It doesn’t matter as MY POINT is that you believe that your god DOES NOT accept those who DO NOT EVER believe. Am I right or am I wrong? Does your god accept those who DO NOT EVER believe? No, your god does not.
Seriously, you are responding to me like a robot (which only verifies points made by jdawg). Will you please make an effort to comprehend what I am writing OR at least stop responding to me?
If your god does not accept those who DO NOT EVER believe, then your god is responsible for people going to hell, thus you would have chosen optional conclusion number 1. IF however your god does accept those who DO NOT EVER believe (as well as everyone else) then there is no hell and your god is not responsible for sending people to hell (or allowing them to descend into hell, take your pick). Yes, yes, I know, the people who go to hell made their choice to go to hell, which is irrelevant as even if those people willingly choose hell as you say, your god IS STILL responsible for them going to hell.
I’m sorry, you don’t get to absolve your god of responsibility. If your god exists, then your god is responsible, and there is no way for you to get around this fact, it is right there in front of you and you keep trying to look away. I understand why you want to look away, it doesn’t match up with everything else you believe. The reality you’ve constructed for yourself doesn’t make sense if your god is malevolent, so you absolve your god of any responsibility. If your god isn’t responsible, then your god isn’t malevolent. Unfortunately for you, your god is responsible, so your god is indeed a malevolent god. This was the point of optional conclusions 2, 3 and 4.
If your god accepts everyone into heaven, THEN no one would descend into hell and thus your god would not be malevolent. Like I said though, believing everyone goes to heaven does raise new questions but it does successfully absolve your god of responsibility of sending/allowing people to go to hell. This option also would mean you wouldn’t be Christian any longer either.
3 & 4 I disagree.
Of course you disagree since you don’t like any of the rational conclusions which is why I stated the following:
Your efforts here are all just an attempt to avoid coming to a conclusion you don’t like. Unfortunately for you, any conclusion you come to besides those 4 possible ones I list above is far less likely to be possible and are almost certainly wrong.
Look if you got a 5th rational option that I haven’t considered, then be my guest and present it. In what way is your god absolved of responsibility for people going to hell besides the options 2, 3 and 4 that I presented? No, you don’t get to say we are responsible because your god didn’t make the choice. If your god created the universe, then your god created the ultimatum, thus your god is responsible even if your god didn’t make the choice. So there are only 3 ways (that I can think of) that your god would be absolved of responsibility, either there is no hell and your god accepts everyone into heaven, your god did not create the universe or your god does not exist.
To answer the question : "why would believing in this god’s plan make someone right, but not believing in this god’s plan make that same person wrong?" The answer is "it doesn't" It does only matter at the time of your death not during your life. But as I tried to explain to you, someone used to make the same mistake will most surely keep making it even after he's dead. And the fact that you already accepted love/good in your life usually means that you will keep choosing good/love after you're dead.
Yes, I already understand your excuses. Unfortunately, you’re assuming that choosing good/love will mean someone will believe in “Jesus/God” at the time of their death or after. I’m sure this is what you want to believe Is true, but we don’t actually know it is. Maybe it is, maybe it isn’t. What if it isn’t though, what then? What if someone chooses good/love all of their lives and even after they die, BUT they DO NOT believe in “Jesus/God”. Again, it comes back to the ultimatum, if they don’t, then they descend into hell, that is the rule. According to the Catholic Church, someone could choose good/love all of their life, but if they don’t believe then they will spend eternity in hell.
I don’t know what question you think you were answering, but “it doesn’t” does not answer the question I asked. Here I’ll split it up and clarify it a little bit so you can understand:
Part 1 – Why would a person (who chooses good/love all of their life) believing in “Jesus/God’s” plan make them right?
Part 2 – Why would a person (who chooses good/love all of their life) NOT EVER believing in “Jesus/God’s” plan make them wrong?
"Could it be that this is one of the primary rules designed by religion to keep people believing?" No. People keep believing because they are loving it, not because they are scared of hell.
Oh so, Christians have no fear of hell? Christians are completely okay with not believing in their god and going to hell? Catholics don’t ever confess their sins for fear of going to hell (have you spoken to every Catholic on Earth about this)?
For the record, if people kept believing because they love it, then there wouldn’t be multiple religions and there wouldn’t be atheists. If people were loving it, then no one would have a crisis of faith. If people were loving it, then there wouldn’t be any need for Christian apologetics.
Nope sorry, wrong answer, thanks for playing, better luck next time. Oh, It might be true that some Christians keep believing because they love it, not all do though. The fact that all don’t and some believe because they fear hell is all it takes to prove my point. The problem is, hell is there in the back of the mind of every Christian, so even if they actually keep believing because they love it, hell is there if they don’t.