Author Topic: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.  (Read 471 times)

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Offline epidemic

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What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« on: July 18, 2014, 03:21:41 PM »
1) auto correct bible, any document that claims to be the word of god does not allow the user to print falsehoods about you.
....a) if you attempt to write a falsehood in a book describing god the book immediatly burst into flames.
....b) if you attempt to say a falsehood about god your words become garbled.

2) People who sin immediatly change color
....a) When they repent in keeping with the unchangable bible they return to their original color.

3) Heal only amputees of the one true faith.
....a) you don't have to heal all but randomly healing only the faithful to the one true religion

4) Perform an unexplainable trick that all can see once or twice a year.
....a) perhaps write Catholicism is right on the moon in text that every human on earth can read

5) Once a generation in a booming voice that all can understand simultaniously around the world which religion to follow.

6) Correct me when I run afoul of your laws/rules/guidelines.  Do so in no ambiguous terms. 
....a) epidemic you lusted after that woman right over there. 
....b) epidemic you lusted after those women over there
....c) epidemic you lusted after that woman over here

Sorry god I think if there is one commandment I break regularly it is lust.  I really dig chicks.  They are hot.  Why did you give me such a strong sex drive. 

7) perhaps some one on one personal time where you answer a few questions until I understand.  Some here know this can be an arduous process so if you can also use a little magic to help me understand it might save you some time.

8) How bout some cool non vengeful things like being able to fly, teleport, be invisible when I am forgiven for 1 hour when I follow most of your rules for an entire day.  Nah we both know what I would do with invisibility (girls locker room )

Choose any or preferably all of the above.  Perhaps in you can come up with better ones god.  But definitely dont use any of the old methods, those just dont work with me that well.  Second hand telling of your great works by bronze age sheep herders is not all that helpful and burning me to a crisp really does not seem to tell me anything in a timely manner so as to allow for change.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 03:25:02 PM by epidemic »

Offline One Above All

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 03:23:36 PM »
Assuming a being I would be willing to call "god" existed, it would know what it would have to do to convince me.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 03:26:37 PM »
I gave him that option .   But I thought my ideas were more fun but I am sure God could improve on the list.  Hell I bet you folks could posibly improve the list.

Offline dloubet

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2014, 12:21:54 AM »
There's plenty of things that would make me listen more closely to theists if they occurred, but they don't.

But logically, for me to agree that a thing is omniscient: I would have to be omniscient.
Denis Loubet

Offline epidemic

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2014, 08:30:52 AM »
There's plenty of things that would make me listen more closely to theists if they occurred, but they don't.

But logically, for me to agree that a thing is omniscient: I would have to be omniscient.

I don't see any reason that I would need proof that god is omniscient.  I am just speaking of gods existence.  I would not have a problem with a god that did not know what was going to happen tomorrow.  In fact it would make god more reasonable if he were not omnicient.  Then he could have created the universe as an experiment to see what will happen.  Each decision I make might then be interesting to god.

Perhaps gods powers are limited to ability to create a universe and omnipresence.

With that in mind you could see him even tweaking the experiment with evolution, Jesus, old testament and Moses. 

A god with out omniscience eliminates most apparent flaws with the bible.  God is kinda like a captain in the federation of planets (star trek) following the prime directive.  He wants to watch the experiment unfold but on occasion feels compelled to change the course of the experiment against a general rule of non interference.

Now that he is not omniscient he can also become angry because things are not going as he had hoped.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 08:38:18 AM by epidemic »

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2014, 08:40:57 AM »
Call cease fire to all of your followers who think their way is the only way and are killing each other to prove it.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Boots

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2014, 08:45:15 AM »
For a god that is capable of creating all of reatlity, and altering the reality of his creations (ie. hardening Pharoh's heart), he should simply be able to change my mind if he so desired.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline epidemic

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2014, 09:30:36 AM »
For a god that is capable of creating all of reatlity, and altering the reality of his creations (ie. hardening Pharoh's heart), he should simply be able to change my mind if he so desired.

Capable yes.  But if he is following the "Prime Directive" and just monitoring our progress a scientist god may not wish to change your heart.  This of course would not be the bible god.  Or rather not how the bible god is described.  But a hands off non omniscient god would almost make sense.  Like a scientist with a petri he may get upset when his strain of bacteria does not do what he was hoping.

Offline Boots

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2014, 12:26:20 PM »
For a god that is capable of creating all of reatlity, and altering the reality of his creations (ie. hardening Pharoh's heart), he should simply be able to change my mind if he so desired.

Capable yes.  But if he is following the "Prime Directive" and just monitoring our progress a scientist god may not wish to change your heart.  This of course would not be the bible god.  Or rather not how the bible god is described.  But a hands off non omniscient god would almost make sense.  Like a scientist with a petri he may get upset when his strain of bacteria does not do what he was hoping.

would a hands-off god like you describe want us to know of/follow him?
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
~jdawg70

Offline Airyaman

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2014, 12:34:06 PM »
I suppose you are suggesting a deist type god. Never saw the point, honestly.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline dloubet

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2014, 06:28:15 PM »
There's plenty of things that would make me listen more closely to theists if they occurred, but they don't.

But logically, for me to agree that a thing is omniscient: I would have to be omniscient.

I don't see any reason that I would need proof that god is omniscient.  I am just speaking of gods existence.  I would not have a problem with a god that did not know what was going to happen tomorrow.  In fact it would make god more reasonable if he were not omnicient.  Then he could have created the universe as an experiment to see what will happen.  Each decision I make might then be interesting to god.
But how are we to establish that a god exists without identifying it in accordance with its supposed properties? I was using the Christian description of god, as vague as that is, because that's the common one that is argued on these forums. If you're going to open the description of god to anything, then this is kind of a pointless exercise. If someone points at a totem and says "This is god." and offers no further description of magical powers or abilities beyond a wooden totem, then I have to agree that god exists. Surely there's more to the point that you're trying to make.
Quote
Perhaps gods powers are limited to ability to create a universe and omnipresence.

With that in mind you could see him even tweaking the experiment with evolution, Jesus, old testament and Moses. 

A god with out omniscience eliminates most apparent flaws with the bible.  God is kinda like a captain in the federation of planets (star trek) following the prime directive.  He wants to watch the experiment unfold but on occasion feels compelled to change the course of the experiment against a general rule of non interference.

Now that he is not omniscient he can also become angry because things are not going as he had hoped.

Okay, this is definitely not the thread the title led me to expect. How is speculation proof?
Denis Loubet

Offline Defiance

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2014, 06:36:31 PM »
Tell him to instantly fix corruptness, keep it that way, get rid of illnesses, fix natural issues (global warming, dirty energy from fossils, freak storms, tsunamis,  sun's life span, sunflares, ozone layer, millions of potentially dangerous asteroids and comets), help us find out more about the big bang,  fix our mistakes in understanding science, be around more, like an actual parent.

But too bad, gods are imaginary.  :/
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline jsmacks

Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2014, 08:30:29 PM »
1) auto correct bible, any document that claims to be the word of god does not allow the user to print falsehoods about you.
....a) if you attempt to write a falsehood in a book describing god the book immediatly burst into flames.
....b) if you attempt to say a falsehood about god your words become garbled.

2) People who sin immediatly change color
....a) When they repent in keeping with the unchangable bible they return to their original color.

3) Heal only amputees of the one true faith.
....a) you don't have to heal all but randomly healing only the faithful to the one true religion

4) Perform an unexplainable trick that all can see once or twice a year.
....a) perhaps write Catholicism is right on the moon in text that every human on earth can read

5) Once a generation in a booming voice that all can understand simultaniously around the world which religion to follow.

6) Correct me when I run afoul of your laws/rules/guidelines.  Do so in no ambiguous terms. 
....a) epidemic you lusted after that woman right over there. 
....b) epidemic you lusted after those women over there
....c) epidemic you lusted after that woman over here

Sorry god I think if there is one commandment I break regularly it is lust.  I really dig chicks.  They are hot.  Why did you give me such a strong sex drive. 

7) perhaps some one on one personal time where you answer a few questions until I understand.  Some here know this can be an arduous process so if you can also use a little magic to help me understand it might save you some time.

8) How bout some cool non vengeful things like being able to fly, teleport, be invisible when I am forgiven for 1 hour when I follow most of your rules for an entire day.  Nah we both know what I would do with invisibility (girls locker room )

Choose any or preferably all of the above.  Perhaps in you can come up with better ones god.  But definitely dont use any of the old methods, those just dont work with me that well.  Second hand telling of your great works by bronze age sheep herders is not all that helpful and burning me to a crisp really does not seem to tell me anything in a timely manner so as to allow for change.


Take a 3 day period and have god appear to everyone in a dream worldwide. Anyone who is not getting sleep, have them safely pass or zone out to appear. If everyone had the same dream that would be pretty good proof. And by it being a dream I think that would still require a bit of faith.

If I had the dream and several of my friends from different backgrounds and cities had the dream, that would be something.


Offline bertatberts

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2014, 07:36:48 AM »
Quote
What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
Even if a god creature knew what it would have to do to convince me. I would still be sceptical, as I could never know whether it was a highly advance alien species trying to make me think it were a god. So basically there is no proof that would change my mind.
I'm not saying there cant be superior beings/aliens, but why should I consider calling it/them a god/gods, heck we are superior to certain animals on this planet. but we're not gods.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline epidemic

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2014, 07:58:59 AM »
For a god that is capable of creating all of reatlity, and altering the reality of his creations (ie. hardening Pharoh's heart), he should simply be able to change my mind if he so desired.

Capable yes.  But if he is following the "Prime Directive" and just monitoring our progress a scientist god may not wish to change your heart.  This of course would not be the bible god.  Or rather not how the bible god is described.  But a hands off non omniscient god would almost make sense.  Like a scientist with a petri he may get upset when his strain of bacteria does not do what he was hoping.

would a hands-off god like you describe want us to know of/follow him?

Perhaps if he wanted to insure the experiment progressed in certain directions.  Every so often god decides to spike the petri dish with something to see what happens.

Offline epidemic

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2014, 08:01:32 AM »
Okay, this is definitely not the thread the title led me to expect. How is speculation proof?

I am sorry I offended thee.  Follow the original thread and have at it.  I just am spitballing and having fun here.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2014, 08:22:35 AM »
Nothing could change my mind apart from god itself because of the way believers define god. If god can do anything then there is no way to ever distinguish when god is doing something or not.
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2014, 08:55:08 AM »
My step-daughter was diagnosed with infantile spasms when she was 2 months old.  She's seven, wheelchair bound, has never eaten solid food, is fed through a tube, and she can't speak, acknowledge you or interact much in any way.   

Her mom of course prayed for a healthy baby like all other parents, and, she's a kind, loving person who'd be a great mom.  She's great with kids.   She goes out of her way to make sure her daughter is well taken care of and has the most healthy food and vitamins possible.

Very rarely, I've seen this girl smile, and I've seen her react slightly to a few things.

So if there was a god and he decided to miraculously heal this girl's brain and let it start growing normally or just instantly restore it, to where, in a year, she was talking or trying to stand...   I'd take that as proof of miracles and proof of answered prayers.   Neurologists have no hope of this happening so, I'd consider that a good act by a loving god.

I've already prayed for this, even though I don't believe, just in case I was wrong about god being imaginary, because I've believed for so many years.   It was worth any miniscule chance to help this little girl.   Plus, I know the favorite excuses for God... "Well, god can't act on selfish requests... blah blah blah"   and I'd like to break a person's jaw who suggested that healing this poor little kid so she could run across the room and hug her mom is a selfish request.   In fact, I'd like to never stop punching that person who suggests an excuse for god in this case.

I know that even if there was a god as described by evangelicals, he wouldn't act in this case, he'd be too busy getting mustard stains out of their favorite sunday dress or helping a millionaire catch touchdown passes.  =-)   

It all comes down to it being comforting that god is imaginary, because, if he's not, he's a true dick.

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline dloubet

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #18 on: July 23, 2014, 05:33:24 AM »
Quote
What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
Even if a god creature knew what it would have to do to convince me. I would still be sceptical, as I could never know whether it was a highly advance alien species trying to make me think it were a god.
Exactly! That's why I said I'd have to be omniscient before I could declare anything to be a god.

How about this approach: What's the minimum necessary to be a god? Does it need the 3 omnis, or can it still be a god if it doesn't have any of them? Maybe creating the universe is the single defining characteristic of a god? Or only creating part of the universe, will that get you in the god club? How about only creating an aspect of the universe, like gravity? Or are we talking about a wooden totem that affects the odds of a good harvest in a single spot on earth if the locals perform the right juggling trick? There would be different requirements to prove these different gods.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2014, 05:45:44 AM by dloubet »
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #19 on: July 23, 2014, 01:13:06 PM »
How about just this?

At those Christian vs atheist debates where the Christian always gets pwned?   What if God stepped in and gave a very specific answer to a question posed by the atheist during the debate?

Sam Harris - "It's pretty clear that this belief in god is delusional..."

Ray Comfort - "Ask me any question that only you would know the answer to, I've got a personal relationship with God, I'll ask him, he'll give me the answer, and then you confirm or deny it... how about that?"

Sam Harris - "I had a puppy as a kid and that puppy chewed up something very valuable to me... what was it?"

Ray Comfort - "Get that Jesus?   Ok... yeah, Jesus said your puppy named Lance (after the astronaut) chewed up your Stretch Armstrong doll and got goop all over your Roberto Clemente baseball card from the insides of the doll.   Jesus also wanted you to know that the puppy did not destroy your Raquel Welsh poster as your mom said, but she ripped it down and blamed the puppy because she thought you were masturbating to it... can you call your mom and verify that second thing right now?"

Sam Harris... "but... I, I, I... how did you know that?"

Ray - "Jesus told me.  We have a personal relationship."

Audience Member - "I wrote a number down on a piece of paper in my wallet, can you tell me what it is?"

Ray - "Jesus told me that fake mentalists can do this trick, but he said you put a really big number on the card as a guard against that... it's 9,563,789.0013 correct?"

Ray - "Now I'm going to go out there and do this with people on the street that you pick out and bring to me.   After that, I'll answer any and all questions that don't make sense about the Bible.   After that I'll go demonstrate this power to the JREF foundation, win a million dollars, and give it to Seventh-Day-Adventists because they're the ones who got it right by the way."

Would it be enough to prove Christian God?  Probably not... but I bet we'd all be waiting to see what Ray said next right?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Jag

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #20 on: July 23, 2014, 02:25:26 PM »
^^^Heck yeah I would!  :)
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline bertatberts

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2014, 03:05:17 AM »
How about just this? Snip< ---------- >Snip

Would it be enough to prove Christian God?  Probably not... but I bet we'd all be waiting to see what Ray said next right?
It only proves that either ray comfort can read minds ( but that's not possible, it's a wonder he has enough braincells to walk)  or an alien with a mind reading ability, who is passing messages to him to make it appear it's jesus/god.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2014, 04:13:39 AM »
Teeny -tiny personal Jesuses.

Basically, every person has their own personal Jesus that stands about a foot high, that can ride around on their shoulder.  Through the magic of divinity, each of these minigods IS Jesus, physically manifesting the "god is everywhere" deal.

These tiny Jesuses will answer whatever theological questions you ask them, clearly and immediately.  So they will answer "is it right to do this?", but not "which lottery numbers shoud I pick?".  They will answer questions whether you are alone, or in a group, so the answers from one Jesus can be heard by others, and confirmed by their own Jesuses.

This would in effect be nothing different to the current situation that believers are in today.  Jesus is everywhere; they have a personal relationship with him; he answers their questions about what is right and wrong.  All that happens with no violation of free will.  All my scenario adds is visibility to others, and an element of confirmation.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline natlegend

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2014, 05:38:13 AM »
Really? REALLY?? Is that the best question you can come up with?? Here's what I'd like to see...

Quote
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where God should have come up and said hello. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f*ckin turn up and say well done." - Eddie Izzard
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline natlegend

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2014, 05:45:54 AM »
OYG[1] it doesn't matter a flying fuck anyway. Any theist who asks this retarded question inevitably ends up saying something obtuse like "Oh but my god doesn't do tricks on demand ."
BORING AND PREDICTABLE
 1. Oh Your God
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline epidemic

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2014, 07:13:07 AM »
OYG[1] it doesn't matter a flying fuck anyway. Any theist who asks this retarded question inevitably ends up saying something obtuse like "Oh but my god doesn't do tricks on demand ."
BORING AND PREDICTABLE
 1. Oh Your God

I know that god supposedly does not do tricks so I guess turning people purple when they sin might be a bit too showy.  I think the least flashy trick was a bible that all could read regardless of their education (some sort of magic) and a bible who's message could not be adapted or modified.  No other book in existence is capable of this.  I still have free will choose to read, follow the tennants of,  and otherwise acknowledge it.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 07:18:09 AM by epidemic »

Offline Graybeard

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2014, 08:18:00 AM »
OK, God is famous for causing earthquakes, curing the infirm (inc. the dead), and fish sandwich based snacks.

All I would require is that He gives a logical explanation of this 'magic' based on scientific reasoning and the knowledge we presently have (plus any new discoveries/insights) such that we understand how it was done.

However, once He had done this, He would no longer be remarkable, nor a god, because when a magician shows how the trick was done, the trick is no longer “magic” and the magician no longer a magician.

So any god would then just become like any of us.

So in basic terms, I want God to show that he is not the god that his gullible followers think he is, but, because he created everything and thus must understand everything, he is here to give real, clear knowledge for the practical advancement of mankind in the 21st century.

The storyteller in Genesis had it absolutely wrong when he gave El-Elyon, speaking for himself and the council of gods, the immortal words,

Ge:3:22a: And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,”

The truth is that man is the god because man can explain his own world, and genuinely understands, whereas the gods have no understanding and no knowledge.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2014, 08:44:07 AM »
OYG[1] it doesn't matter a flying fuck anyway. Any theist who asks this retarded question inevitably ends up saying something obtuse like "Oh but my god doesn't do tricks on demand ."
BORING AND PREDICTABLE
 1. Oh Your God

Christian's SAY that God doesn't do tricks on demand but... the supposedly infallible Bible says otherwise.

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22 Then Elijah said to them, “I am the only one of the Lord’s prophets left, but Baal has four hundred and fifty prophets. 23 Get two bulls for us. Let Baal’s prophets choose one for themselves, and let them cut it into pieces and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. I will prepare the other bull and put it on the wood but not set fire to it. 24 Then you call on the name of your god, and I will call on the name of the Lord. The god who answers by fire—he is God.”

Then all the people said, “What you say is good.”

25 Elijah said to the prophets of Baal, “Choose one of the bulls and prepare it first, since there are so many of you. Call on the name of your god, but do not light the fire.” 26 So they took the bull given them and prepared it.

Then they called on the name of Baal from morning till noon. “Baal, answer us!” they shouted. But there was no response; no one answered. And they danced around the altar they had made.

27 At noon Elijah began to taunt them. “Shout louder!” he said. “Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened.” 28 So they shouted louder and slashed themselves with swords and spears, as was their custom, until their blood flowed. 29 Midday passed, and they continued their frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But there was no response, no one answered, no one paid attention.

We can see that if a god doesn't answer in any kind of meaningful way, it's PERFECTLY FINE FOR ELIJAH TO TAUNT THEM BECAUSE THEIR GOD IS IMAGINARY!

This passage makes it clear that not only is it ok to test god, but, if a god fails to answer that test, it's "proof" that they aren't the real god.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Kings%2018&version=NIV

Elijah called for a contest between Baal and Yahweh.   Elijah then likely used a mix of chemicals like sulfer and naptha which were available at the time, and poured regular water over them, causing a chemical reaction that generates intense heat, over the combustion point of wood if used in the right proportion...

After Elijah was successful with a trick to make it seem god was real, they had all the priests of Baal butchered.

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36 At the time of sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed: “Lord, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel and that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. 37 Answer me, Lord, answer me, so these people will know that you, Lord, are God, and that you are turning their hearts back again.”

38 Then the fire of the Lord fell and burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench.

39 When all the people saw this, they fell prostrate and cried, “The Lord—he is God! The Lord—he is God!”

40 Then Elijah commanded them, “Seize the prophets of Baal. Don’t let anyone get away!” They seized them, and Elijah had them brought down to the Kishon Valley and slaughtered there.

If you read about the exact method by which Elijah prepared the altar, it's pretty obvious he was setting it up...  he didn't just randomly pile wood in a random place and ask god to light it...

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30 Then Elijah said to all the people, “Come here to me.” They came to him, and he repaired the altar of the Lord, which had been torn down. 31 Elijah took twelve stones, one for each of the tribes descended from Jacob, to whom the word of the Lord had come, saying, “Your name shall be Israel.” 32 With the stones he built an altar in the name of the Lord, and he dug a trench around it large enough to hold two seahs[a] of seed. 33 He arranged the wood, cut the bull into pieces and laid it on the wood. Then he said to them, “Fill four large jars with water and pour it on the offering and on the wood.”

34 “Do it again,” he said, and they did it again.

“Do it a third time,” he ordered, and they did it the third time. 35 The water ran down around the altar and even filled the trench.

Here's an example of causing a fire by pouring water on a mix of chemicals.


This was possible to do in biblical times with chemicals like naptha and sulfer which were readily available and would have been a secret restricted to "wizards" or "alchemists" or "prophets".

The reason it is perfectly ok for god to prove himself, and to mock other gods who don't prove themselves (and then butcher their priests) is because it was all a trick, god is imaginary, Elijah faked it, and God could never do anything that would be anything other than a man made trick.

This is why "challenges" to God were stopped because people can catch on to the man made tricks...   but there is GREAT BIBLICAL EXAMPLE that you CAN ask God to prove himself and he finds it worthwhile and even happily uses it as just cause for murder.

When debating Christians, please use this story to counter "but you can't test god"
« Last Edit: July 24, 2014, 08:45:54 AM by YRM_DM »
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: What kind of proof could god give you to change your mind.
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2014, 10:09:37 AM »
So in basic terms, I want God to show that he is not the god that his gullible followers think he is, but, because he created everything and thus must understand everything, he is here to give real, clear knowledge for the practical advancement of mankind in the 21st century.

ooooo that sounds like a bad idea.  Would you give your 6 year old a gallon of liquid oxygen to play with?

Perhaps giving humans practical knowledge of how to tap into the powers that created the universe might not be that good an idea.  Even the wonders of nuclear fission/fussion are a bit problematic.  Imagine what the DARPA would do with black hole generators and zero point bombs.