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(JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« on: July 17, 2014, 01:35:43 PM »
JstWebBrowsing. I believe I read you are a JW. 

With just 144,000 people making it to heaven and salvation, what is the point of following your religion,   The odds are so long as to be almost silly to even try.

108,000,000,000 that is 108 billion people have lived.
144,000 are going to be saved.

that works out to 0.000133333%

Of all people to have ever lived do you consider yourself in the top .0001% of all humans ever?

Offline Airyaman

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2014, 01:39:29 PM »
I think that 144k is the elite, the rulers. The other faithful JWs will spend eternity on a new earth, I think, so they still get some eternal goodies.
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2014, 01:41:00 PM »
JstWebBrowsing. I believe I read you are a JW. 

With just 144,000 people making it to heaven and salvation, what is the point of following your religion,   The odds are so long as to be almost silly to even try.

108,000,000,000 that is 108 billion people have lived.
144,000 are going to be saved.

that works out to 0.000133333%

Of all people to have ever lived do you consider yourself in the top .0001% of all humans ever?

That's just gross.   A thousand times gross.
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 04:24:39 AM »
They are actually virgin men who go to heaven. JWs believe that the rest of the population goes to Eden, as "the crowd".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_salvation
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 06:10:50 AM »
Thanks.   Ya learn something every day. 

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 10:19:56 AM »
I think that 144k is the elite, the rulers. The other faithful JWs will spend eternity on a new earth, I think, so they still get some eternal goodies.

That certainly is convenient
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 12:38:01 PM »
I think that 144k is the elite, the rulers. The other faithful JWs will spend eternity on a new earth, I think, so they still get some eternal goodies.

That certainly is convenient

Well, there has to be some carrot after all.
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 01:25:35 PM »
It's not just a JW thing -- it's in Revelation.  I thinks JWs just take it more seriously than other 'christians'.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 01:29:40 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and leave this here should Jstwebbrowsing pop into this thread:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/604-who-are-the-144-000-of-revelation-7-and-14

I suspect his thoughts on that article would be interesting.
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 01:34:08 PM »
It's not just a JW thing -- it's in Revelation.  I thinks JWs just take it more seriously than other 'christians'.

That's true. I actually think the JWs interpretation is more accurate. Other Christians just think "everyone goes to heaven in the skies". But the Bible clearly talks about a new earth and new skies.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 05:41:50 PM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.

And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jdawg70

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2014, 06:15:18 PM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.
The word 'appointed' is much, much more appropriate than 'elected'.

Quote
And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.
Wouldn't you want leaders who rule to be...of the elite of the populace?  It just seems that, if those 144,000 people are being picked out for some task of responsibility, you'd want to maximize success by appointing the best qualified - I dare say the elite for leadership.

Though perhaps this is just semantics, so I'm happy to drop the word 'elite'.  On what basis do you think god chooses to appoint one person over another?  Is it at all based on some merit of any kind, or is it more like random selection?

Quote
They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

Why do the characteristics of <entity A> not match with the expectations of <entity A> possessing, having, or otherwise embodying <descriptive word>?  Oh, that's because <entity A> possesses, has, or otherwise embodies <descriptive word> in a spiritual sense.

How about instead of slapping on 'spiritual sense' as a merely implied modifier, someone either explicitly write that sh*t down or, even better, just say what the bleep you actually mean.

Sorry, but I refuse to buy the 'in a spiritual sense' gambit to halt questioning of why the brand new Mercedes-Benz in your driveway looks like a rusted-out Gremlin.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2014, 06:31:03 PM »
I'm going to go ahead and leave this here should Jstwebbrowsing pop into this thread:

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/604-who-are-the-144-000-of-revelation-7-and-14

I suspect his thoughts on that article would be interesting.

There was for a time uncertainty among Witnesses about the 144,000, whether this was a literal number or a figurative number.  Because the number was in fact represented in two different ways, it was decided it is most likely a literal number.  Emphasizing something or a number more than once or in a different manner is most often an indication something is literal.  This does not however, necessitate that everything else in the passage must also be taken literal.

However, it is true that twelve is often a symbolic number.  It is used to describe earthly completeness or perfection.  If taken symbollically it would mean a complete number of them, a number fully sufficient to rule the earth.  A perfect number of them.

Quote from: web site
Also, the apostle saw a “great multitude, which no man can number” out of every nation. These too were redeemed individuals who had been made white in the Lamb’s blood (v. 14). They had victoriously triumphed over tribulation, and they served God continuously in his temple.

The great tribulation occurs on earth.  Anyone that triumphs over it will be on earth.

Quote
Again, in Revelation 14:1ff, John saw the Lamb on Mount Zion. With him were 144,000, sealed with the Father’s name upon their foreheads. This great multitude had been “purchased out of the earth,” and they were said to be the “firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.”

This is misinformation.  Those "purchased out of the earth" are the 144,000, not the great multitude.  (Rev 14:3; Rev 7:9-17)  The great multitude are those that "come out of the great tribulation".  They "come out" in the sense that they live through it or "triumph over it" as the writer said.

Quote
That is not so. This multitude was described as “standing before the throne” (7:9), which is in heaven (1:4; 4:2-10). Furthermore, these saints “before the throne” were serving God in “his temple” (7:15). Elsewhere John comments that “the temple of God … is in heaven” (11:19).

This is misinformation too.  One does not need to be in heaven to stand before God.  For example, the commandment "have no other Gods before me" means "have not other God's in my presence".  This applies on earth. 

"And the men turned from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before Jehovah." (Gen 18:22)

"And all Judah stood before Jehovah, with their little ones, their wives, and their children." (2 Chronicles 20:13)

The earth is also part of that temple.  It corresponds to the courtyard of the temple.

Quote
•Only men will be in heaven, hence, Hannah, Mary, Dorcus, and women of like faith are without that hope.
•Only unmarried men who are virgins will gain heaven. This would exclude Abraham, Moses, Peter, and a host of other biblical worthies.

This argument is still a strawman and is not true.  If the number is literal it does not mean the entire passage is literal.  But truthfully the number of them is insignificant.  Either you have a heavenly calling or an earthly calling.

Quote
Finally, the Bible makes it clear that no one will dwell on a “glorified earth,” for there will be no earth subsequent to the Second Coming of Christ (see Mt. 24:35; 2 Pet. 3:10ff; Rev. 21:1).

This is a self-refuting argument.  Mt 24:35 " Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away."  First I would ask, if both heaven AND earth pass away, where will be left?  How is anyone going to be in heaven if it too passes away?

The scriptures answer.  "Then I saw "a new heaven and a new earth," for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea." (Rev 21:1)

gtg




« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:13:40 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2014, 07:06:46 PM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.

And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

So there is nothing special about the "elect"?
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2014, 07:58:12 PM »
WHERE IS THE BIT ABOUT MANSIONS??
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #15 on: July 18, 2014, 09:06:42 PM »
The word 'appointed' is much, much more appropriate than 'elected'.

Yes it actually is.  Some translations renender it "chosen ones".  We actually use the word "anointed".  I used the word because it's familiar to many people in many translations.  But I agree.  Elect is not the best word.

Quote
Wouldn't you want leaders who rule to be...of the elite of the populace?  It just seems that, if those 144,000 people are being picked out for some task of responsibility, you'd want to maximize success by appointing the best qualified - I dare say the elite for leadership.

Though perhaps this is just semantics, so I'm happy to drop the word 'elite'.  On what basis do you think god chooses to appoint one person over another?  Is it at all based on some merit of any kind, or is it more like random selection?

It is not random but we don't know any prerequisites other than spiritual purity.  Why did Christ choose the apostles that he chose?  Were they chosen based on personality traits, experiences they had in their lives, leadership qualities, or whatever.  He surely considered them "good" people to have chosen them, but beyond that there is no merit system or requirements set out in scripture.  There is only one standard in Christianity.

It is assumed they are or become very good Christians just like the apostles but none are necessarily more spiritual or closer to Jehovah than those with an earthly calling. 

Quote
Why do the characteristics of <entity A> not match with the expectations of <entity A> possessing, having, or otherwise embodying <descriptive word>?  Oh, that's because <entity A> possesses, has, or otherwise embodies <descriptive word> in a spiritual sense.

How about instead of slapping on 'spiritual sense' as a merely implied modifier, someone either explicitly write that sh*t down or, even better, just say what the bleep you actually mean.

Sorry, but I refuse to buy the 'in a spiritual sense' gambit to halt questioning of why the brand new Mercedes-Benz in your driveway looks like a rusted-out Gremlin.

I will state what is certain.

1.  In the Bible harlotry comes in two sorts.  Physical harlotry.  And religous harlotry.  For example:  " You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God?".  There are many scriptural examples about religious harlotry.  Those claiming to be German Christians that sold their integrity to Hitler by becoming murderers are prime examples in religious harlotry also.   

2.  No Christian is ever told to be single or celibate.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #16 on: July 18, 2014, 09:23:44 PM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.

And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

So there is nothing special about the "elect"?

They become kings and  [high] priests for 1000 years, serving in the "Holy of Holies", heaven itself.  So yes that's is special and a priveledge.  But they are not "better Christians" than everyone else.

That is a very big privelege however there are many blessing to living on earth that heavenly ones won't enjoy, things such as having families, making discoveries, and everything that makes humans humans.  Humans were designed specifically to enjoy life on this earth, with an unlimited universe all around us and a tremendous ability to enjoy it.  Those on earth will in no way suffer by comparison.

So it's highly subjective if they are "special".  But as far as being "better Christians", no. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2014, 09:38:04 PM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.

And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

So there is nothing special about the "elect"?

They become kings and  [high] priests for 1000 years, serving in the "Holy of Holies", heaven itself.  So yes that's is special and a priveledge.  But they are not "better Christians" than everyone else.

That is a very big privelege however there are many blessing to living on earth that heavenly ones won't enjoy, things such as having families, making discoveries, and everything that makes humans humans.  Humans were designed specifically to enjoy life on this earth, with an unlimited universe all around us and a tremendous ability to enjoy it.  Those on earth will in no way suffer by comparison.

So it's highly subjective if they are "special".  But as far as being "better Christians", no.

So kings and high priests would not be considered "elite"? I never said they were better Christians, but you are admitting they are unusual and above others in spiritual rank, which falls in line with "elite".
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2014, 10:11:24 PM »
They are actually virgin men who go to heaven. JWs believe that the rest of the population goes to Eden, as "the crowd".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah%27s_Witnesses_and_salvation

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

Wait, hold on. I thought JW's held that marriage was between a man and a woman? Yet here you are making "brides" out of virgin men.

Did I miss something. Is the Watchtower org now OK with teh gays getting married?

Also, how does Christ get to have bride(s)? Is Polygamy back in fashion? What would be the collective noun for that - a himreem?

Or maybe, just maybe, this Christ fellow gets special treatment on account of the fact that some people claim he's got a family connection with the boss?

Keep talking. Gerry Springer will be here momentarily.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2014, 10:23:46 PM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.

And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

So there is nothing special about the "elect"?

They become kings and  [high] priests for 1000 years, serving in the "Holy of Holies", heaven itself.  So yes that's is special and a priveledge.  But they are not "better Christians" than everyone else.

That is a very big privelege however there are many blessing to living on earth that heavenly ones won't enjoy, things such as having families, making discoveries, and everything that makes humans humans.  Humans were designed specifically to enjoy life on this earth, with an unlimited universe all around us and a tremendous ability to enjoy it.  Those on earth will in no way suffer by comparison.

So it's highly subjective if they are "special".  But as far as being "better Christians", no.

So kings and high priests would not be considered "elite"? I never said they were better Christians, but you are admitting they are unusual and above others in spiritual rank, which falls in line with "elite".

No.  I do not like the implications of the word "elite".  It seems to imply they are somehow better, or more spiritual, Christians.

"1At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, “Who, then, is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
 
2He called a little child to him, and placed the child among them. 3And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.4Therefore, whoever takes the lowly position of this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.5And whoever welcomes one such child in my name welcomes me." (Mt 18:1-5)

"But the greatest among you shall be your servant." (Mt 23:11)
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #20 on: July 19, 2014, 01:52:25 AM »
I remember at the JW Passover/Lord's Evening Meal[1] there were these two really elderly white ladies who were the only people in the congregation who ever partook.

I finally got the courage to ask my father why nobody else ever ate or drank. He said they were of the 144,000 chosen ones who would sit at the right hand of Jehovah in heaven. I asked how does someone know they are the chosen ones. My father said, they just know. I wondered if all the 144,000 were white. :?

As I got older I wondered about the wisdom of continuing to witness and try to get more people to join up if the number of the chosen would always stay the same..... One thing I knew for sure. I was not of their number. When I realized that, I was kinda bummed.  I was destined to be a JW worker bee for all eternity. Everlasting life was going to be a long slog.

We were a predominantly black congregation, but the 3-4 brothers in leadership roles were white guys. (Two were actual brothers.) And the chosen ones were these two white women who were so old, I think the Kingdom Hall had been built around them. Go figure.

I am sure race had nothing to do with any of this...... &)
 1. My brother always said it was called Passover because the tray with the unleavened bread and the goblet with the wine was always passed over the heads of the children so we wouldn't touch them. We used to joke about what would happen to us if we did reach up and touch the tray, maybe knock it over. Armageddon. Immediate Armageddon. ;D
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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #21 on: July 19, 2014, 04:31:59 AM »
Hey nogodsforme, just curious....why did your "kingdom hall" allow two ladies to claim they were part of the 144,000?  Isn't the 144,000 supposed to be made up of just men who don't "defile" themselves with women (Rev. 14:4)? 

Follow up question for any female believer in Jesus who has had sexual relations with a man: How do you feel knowing that you have "defiled" that man by having sex with him?  "Defile" is a nasty word and if I was a woman I would have a hard time worshiping a god that says I would "defile" a man just by having sex with him. 

I am always surprised at the number of female believers in Jesus.  It goes without saying that the bible does not speak very highly of females.  But then again maybe I don't know how to "spiritually" interpret all the verses that portray women negatively.

Oh yeah.  Jstwebbrowsing, the straightforward reading of Rev. 14:4 refutes your argument that "no Christian is ever told to be single or celibate" in your #15 reply.       
"The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries, that have afflicted the human race, have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion."
~Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason)

Offline Airyaman

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2014, 07:24:15 AM »
The 144,000 are not "elite".  They are simply "elected" by Christ, the same as the apostles.  All Christians are not "elect", but being elected does not in anyway make them "elite Christians" and every Witnesses must determine for themselves if they have an earthly or heavenly calling.  They are not elected by any man.

And yes, the elect will be "kings and priests of God" and will rule the earth with Christ for a thousand years.  The first of those elected were the apostles.  This privelege was first offered to the Jews by Christ himself.

They are virgins in a spiritual sense.  As Christ's bride they have not committed fornication with other Gods or with the governments of men.  They are, however, not the only spiritual virgins.  They are not "elite" they are simply "elect".

So there is nothing special about the "elect"?

They become kings and  [high] priests for 1000 years, serving in the "Holy of Holies", heaven itself.

So the kings and high priests would not be considered elite?

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So yes that's is special and a priveledge.  But they are not "better Christians" than everyone else.

"Elite" does not necessarily mean that.

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That is a very big privelege however there are many blessing to living on earth that heavenly ones won't enjoy, things such as having families, making discoveries, and everything that makes humans humans.  Humans were designed specifically to enjoy life on this earth, with an unlimited universe all around us and a tremendous ability to enjoy it.  Those on earth will in no way suffer by comparison.

So it's highly subjective if they are "special".  But as far as being "better Christians", no.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2014, 12:32:23 PM »
One thing I knew for sure. I was not of their number.

How did you know?  Did you want to be?  Were you ever baptized?

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I was destined to be a JW worker bee for all eternity.

I don't understand what you mean by this?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2014, 12:36:33 PM »
Oh yeah.  Jstwebbrowsing, the straightforward reading of Rev. 14:4 refutes your argument that "no Christian is ever told to be single or celibate" in your #15 reply.

No it does not.  There are no instructions given at Rev 14:4.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2014, 01:02:59 PM »
So the kings and high priests would not be considered elite?

1. ( often used with a plural verb ) the choice or best of anything considered collectively, as of a group or class of persons.

Not according to this definition.

2.  ( used with a plural verb ) persons of the highest class: Only the elite were there.

Nor this one.

3. a group of persons exercising the major share of authority or influence within a larger group: the power elite of a major political party.

This would apply, however only in a relative sense.  Jehovah himself is the actual ruler.  Like Christ was while on earth they do not carry out their own will and Jehovah himself is their ruler too.

In a similar way the U.S. government is not the "elite" of the country.  They are the rulers but that doesn't make them elite.  It's subjective.  Some may say scientists are the elite of the nation.  Some would say the richest are the elite.  Some may say those with the happiest families are elite.  But neither of these are objectively true.  It depends on how you define "elite".  I don't like the word in reference to the anointed because it carries too much baggage with it such as definitions 1 and 2 above.  I don't want people lead to believe that is the case and that is what is impilied by the use of "elite".  If they were elite, then the Bible would call them "the elite", but it doesn't.



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2014, 01:05:52 PM »
One thing I knew for sure. I was not of their number.

How did you know?  Did you want to be?  Were you ever baptized?

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I was destined to be a JW worker bee for all eternity.

I don't understand what you mean by this?

Ironically, my grandmother who is a lifelong Nazarene hopes heaven is like the earth because she would rather be in a place like that.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2014, 01:08:53 PM »
One thing I knew for sure. I was not of their number.

How did you know?  Did you want to be?  Were you ever baptized?

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I was destined to be a JW worker bee for all eternity.

I don't understand what you mean by this?

I asked my father about it and he said if you were chosen, you just "knew it", inside. Of course I wanted to be the special chosen one-- who wouldn't? I felt around inside to see if I "knew it" and I did not. That meant that I was just a regular JW, doing the everlasting life thing on earth, forever, but would never get the "promotion" that would enable me to hang with Jehovah and Jesus in heaven. That's what I mean by being a JW worker bee.

The pictures of everlasting life always had nuclear family groups, mom, dad and two or three kids, segregated by race and wearing traditional ethnic garb to show diversity. But they spent their time walking around a big park picking baskets of fruit. Sometimes they were petting lions or other wild animals to show that everything was peaceful. They looked very happy, but it seemed a really boring way to spend eternity to an inner city kid--no cars, no tv, no movies, not even houses were shown in the pictures.

Did they go to the bathroom in the park? (If all they ate was fruit they would have to go a lot.) Where did they sleep? On the ground next to the lions? Did it ever rain or snow? would there be no meat, since there would be no killing or dying? Would the park ever fill up with people as they had babies, or would there always be the same number? Where would the babies be born if there were no hospitals since nobody got sick or died?

These were the kinds of questions that got me in trouble. And I never got good answers, even though I kept on asking and kept getting in trouble. I was told to trust that Jehovah would take care of everything.

It was like the JW imagination went back to the Garden of Eden, but skipped over everything people had done in terms of civilization in the meantime. I mean, where did the ethnic garb come from without farms to grow the cotton, factories or at least tailor shops with people sewing, stores or some other kind of distribution centers, etc. Where did the people get the baskets to collect the fruit? They were wearing shoes--what were the shoes made of? Wood and bark?

I never got baptized, because by the time I was old enough my parents were divorced and we had stopped attending the Kingdom Hall. My oldest brother did get baptized and remained with the JWs all his life. When he died, I attended his funeral and it was the first time I had been around the congregation in 30 years. It was surreal to see the same people still believing stuff that had stopped making sense to me back when I was a teenager.

Problem with telling people they should just "know" things about religion--it leads to introspection about other aspects, like the existence of god. I was suppose to just "know" that, too. And I felt around inside and I did not.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: (JstWebbrowsing) Jehova's wittness 144,000
« Reply #28 on: July 19, 2014, 03:40:04 PM »
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I never got baptized

The anointing does not occur before baptism.  This pattern was set by Christ at his baptism.

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Did they go to the bathroom in the park? (If all they ate was fruit they would have to go a lot.) Where did they sleep? On the ground next to the lions? Did it ever rain or snow? would there be no meat, since there would be no killing or dying? Where would the babies be born if there were no hospitals since nobody got sick or died?

These were the kinds of questions that got me in trouble. And I never got good answers, even though I kept on asking and kept getting in trouble. I was told to trust that Jehovah would take care of everything.

I don't understand why you were not given answers.  I am wondering if you were so young your parents and your brothers thought you were too young to understand or for some reason chose not to more fully explain things.  The answer you've related to me seem to be answers some might tell a young child.  Maybe they preferred you to learn more directly from the Kingdom Hall.  I don't know, but there are answers to your questions.

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
 
22They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree shall be the days of my people, and my chosen shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
 
23They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for calamity; for they are the seed of the blessed of Jehovah, and their offspring with them.
 
24And it shall come to pass that, before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. (Isaiah 65:21-24)

Obviously there are going to be structures and even technology.  Humans have an inborn tendancy to want learn and create.  We even find enjoyment in satisfying work.  Jehovah is not going to deprive us of these things and he did not create the entire universe for nothing, nor are any of the earth's resources withheld from us.  There is no reason to believe people will become primitive again.  But we will work for different goals.  No longer will life be about mere survival, money, and competition.

Imagine a world where science is only used for good.  Imagine a world where talent is not lost because the talented are too poor, or are of the wrong race, to participate.  Imagine a world that does not have to support a military.  Imagine a world where people don't compete but work together.  Imagine a world where certain technologies are not withheld because it would hurt the economy.  The guilt of mankind lies in the fact that we are already capable of creating a world like that, but don't.  All we have to do is the right thing.  But we will never acheive it as long as there are so many that just want to dominate their fellow man.  That is the downfall of mankind.  It's  the desire to have power over others.  Leadership is good and even necessary, but leadership is not domination.  Plus there are those that wouldn't follow a good leader if they had one.

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Would the park ever fill up with people as they had babies, or would there always be the same number?

Yes, the earth will logically fill up and Jehovah's purpose will be met.  What happens after that is speculation but it is certain mankind will not just become stagnant.  Once Jehovah completes a purpose, he begins another.  Jehovah will always make sure the "desires of our hearts" are met.  (Psalm 37:4).

The scriptures do indicate that in the beginning of the 1000 year reign there will be more divine instructions, perhaps in the form of more inspired writings.  Our purpose will then change.  Likely, after Armageddon some things will have to be cleaned up.  It will be a time of more fully educating mankind.  And a time of welcoming back the dead, progressively, they will not all be raised at one time, and basically repossessing the earth.

That does not mean however, we are going to do this to the exclusion of everything else.  Mankind will continue to learn and "evolve".  We will stop destroying the earth with our pollution but we're not going to go backwards, so to speak.

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would there be no meat, since there would be no killing or dying?

I am not certain.  One thing for sure is that animals will not live forever.  Animals will still die.  Adam and Eve did not eat meat, but animals were given as food beginning with Noah.  I don't know if this is permanant or if it has been done temporarility for a specific purpose.  Scriptures do indicate animals will become more peacable. 

"The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, And with the young goat the leopard will lie down, And the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; And a little boy will lead them.  The cow and the bear will feed together, And their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull.." (Isaiah 11:6,7)

It has been pointed out that it says "reside for a while".  YLT used the word "soujourn" which means "1. a temporary stay: during his sojourn in Paris. verb (used without object) 2. to stay for a time in a place; live temporarily".  This may indicate predator and prey are not entirely best friends, but may just be relatively more at peace with each other.

Also the part about the lion eating straw, it has been suggested this may not indicate an entire change of diet but perhaps a diet suplemented with something else orther than meat.  Of course is may be very literal.

One thing to keep in mind is that on the seventh day Jehovah rested from his work of creation.  Once that seventh day is over he will resume his work.  Notice he does create again  "See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind." (Isaian 65:17)

The scriptures say there will even come to be grain on the top of the mountains. -- (Psalm 72:16).  It may very well be that new forms of vegetation will be introduced.  There will be food in the desert.  It could be that some new vegetation could be the diet of meat eaters.  Some scientist is even trying to find a way to turn vegetation into meat and is have some success.  If Jehovah creates then anything is possible.  Perhaps humans will even take part in changing these things.  What could humans themselves do in 1000 years if there were not so many opposing conditions?

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Where would the babies be born if there were no hospitals since nobody got sick or died?

Midwives are a very real possibility.

The Bible does not directly answer some of your questions.  But in these cases there are scriptures that can be applied that can at least give us some possibilities.  The main thing is that we will stop destroying the earth.  Jehovah does not limit what we can do as long as we stay within the confines of taking care of the earth and not destroying it or what's in it.  He does not create for us to destroy.  That creates a conflict of interest.  Imagine a creation of yours purposely destoying your other creations.  How would you feel?

I do enjoy talking about these things.  I hope the post is not too long for you.  But you should keep in mind that Christ will then be ruling unopposed as king with a real functioning government.  He will lead us.  Yes this takes faith (trust) and faith can be a scary thing, but at some point it's required.  If you get to know Jehovah he will earn that trust.

This is why I keep emphasizing that like Adam and Eve we are always going to be ignorant of something.  Jehovah will educate us and we can educate ourselves.  But where we are ignorant we need to trust Jehovah.  The only time we won't need to have trust for him is when we know literally everything and I don't think that's possible, even if we are given forever.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 03:52:44 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10