Author Topic: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?  (Read 3422 times)

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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #232 on: August 06, 2014, 07:17:15 PM »
I must have missed those parts of the bible as a JW kid. The bible I read was telling me to shut up and let the men run things, to be submissive, that women were unclean, that women tempted men into sinfulness, that Eve brought all the trouble into the world, etc, etc...

that is a weird bible... you sure your h8red for xtians isn't rooted in a bit more...?

Equal rights for men of all races and classes, the abolition of slavery, and the emancipation of women did not accompany the conversion of the pagan masses to Christianity. Unless medieval feudal Europe looked a lot different than we thought!

actually, the abolition of slavery in britain was indeed spearheaded by an evangelical christian.  his campaign led to the slavery abolition act 1833, which effectively abolished slavery in the british empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce

Who are the people most likely to suppress freedom for women around the world today? Are religious groups or secular ones trying to keep girls ignorant and unskilled, raping them for daring to be outside their homes, kidnapping them or throwing acid on them for going to school?

i agree, but that's not the xtian religion you h8 so much... but you know what religion it is, don't you.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #233 on: August 06, 2014, 08:15:26 PM »
Well, fc, religious people of good conscience have argued on both sides of the slavery/abolition issue. I think the fact that no major religion outlawed slavery from the getgo is one of the reasons I don't think religions come from any god. There have been times in the US when the proper Christian perspective was very pro-slavery because, the argument went, the slaves would be converted to Christianity and their souls would be saved, even if their bodies and minds were destroyed. 

If you read the letters and speeches of the Confederate leadership, it is all about how African slavery is ordained by god and the bible. That viewpoint was shared by a big segment of the US population, not just a handful of fringe nutjobs. The anti-slavery folks, like the Quakers, were considered the fringe nutjobs of their day.

If Christians were universally anti-slavery from the time of Jesus, it's hard to imagine why it ever caught on in Europe and the Americas, and why it lasted for so many centuries. If everyone was against it, why did it take until the 1800's for widespread abolition of the trade, and even longer for actual emancipation of the enslaved people? The bible offers plenty of support for slavery and was used to justify it in many countries for centuries. That is not a condemnation of the bible or of religion. It is just a fact.

If you want to think I hate religious people in general or Christians in particular, you are going to be disappointed. I can disagree with people without hating them. Most of my relatives, friends, neighbors, work colleagues and students are religious. I hate none of them. I am annoyed by some of them for various (generally non-religious) reasons, but that is very far from hatred.

I attend religious services whenever someone invites me--in the past few years I have been to various Christian, Muslim and Sikh houses of worship. I lived with Muslims, Catholics and Buddhists in other countries. I have recently given money to several Christian students to help them go on their mission trips. I arranged for a priest who works with street kids to speak to packed crowds at the college where I teach-- and still get regular emails from his organization updating me on their work. I am the faculty adviser for a Muslim student group. I financially help to support numerous families and individuals in need, both here in the US and overseas. All of them are quite religious people. I have never judged anyone or criticized them for their beliefs.

I would challenge you to find any evidence of religious hatred in my life.[1]

I am not going to go through the bible and find all those anti-woman quotes-- I read them and heard them every day as a kid. Someone else here can do that. Are you saying that those passages are not in the bible and I made them up? Or that they are there, but I am taking them out of context?
 1. What I find amusing is that every religious group I interact with think I am a member of or at least sympathetic to their faith. Unless I make a point of it, not a single person ever pegs me as a radical hardcore atheist. With my dreadlocks a lot of people assume I am a Rasta queen.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #234 on: August 06, 2014, 09:49:51 PM »
only what i can remember from my own experience.  and i must say, my history teachers were very good, but i don't recall the xtian aspect of our founders being central in my lessons... like it or not, agree with it or not... it's just the way it was. and that's my point... i agree that proselytizing public school children is wrong, but i also think that schools tiptoe around any mention of the bible or xtians because like you stated, they're afraid of the lawsuit.

I think that's a bit oversimplified. 

It is worthy of note that there is little emphasis in the history classes regarding the heavy involvement of Christianity in witch hunts, multitudes of different wars, slavery, antisemitism / the holocaust, the crusades, the treatment of so called 'heretics', scientific stifling, the treatment of the Native Americans by the puritans and many other things for which Christianity was the primary motivating force.  You get just as brief a mention of Christianity with those things as you do with the founding fathers, and in all likelihood, most Christians are probably fine with keeping it that way.  I doubt there is a teacher alive in the U.S. that would quote Exodus 22:18 when a curious student asks why the witch hunts took place.  Most of them would probably mumble something about superstition and move along to the next topic. 

It would not be fair to point to the select group of founding fathers that happened to be Christian and make a heavy push to teach the children that these men took their Christian faith and used it to form our country, without also saying, 'see, look how these men took their Christian faith and used it to defend hunting down and killing 'witches', and so called 'heretics', and how they used it to justify wars and slavery. 

Christianity is probably mentioned just enough in history classes so as to avoid children from saying 'WTF is up with those ass hole Christians', and to avoid parents from drumming up a lawsuit. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline kcrady

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #235 on: August 07, 2014, 07:51:15 AM »
ummmmm, yes, confirmation bias - when people filter out useful facts and opinions that don’t coincide with their preconceived notions... kinda like when xyzzy stated that, just recently... in the past few decades, society has moved away from the notion that women are inherently inferior to men.  and i show her how jesus did in fact treat women equal to men,

Yes, that must be why all twelve of "the Twelve" were...men.

"We here at Jesus, Inc. are an equal opportunity employer!  Sure, there may be no women in our management team, but that's because...um...SQUIRREL!"

In fairness, the Gospel of Mary Magdalene portrays Jesus making Mary Magdalene an inner-circle disciple and even teaching her things he didn't share with the others.[1]  But then, that Gospel didn't get the votes to make it into the Bible, did it?
 1. Given the way the 12 Disciples are portrayed in the canonical Gospels, i.e. as complete idiots, it wouldn't be surprising if Jesus decided they weren't ready for the "deeper" teachings.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #236 on: August 07, 2014, 08:17:44 AM »
hey, i just figured out how to start a new topic - question moved to new thread... please don't give me any -darwin points.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2014, 08:25:03 AM by frank callaway »
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

-Jonathan Swift

Offline screwtape

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #237 on: August 07, 2014, 08:48:05 AM »
ummmmm, yes, confirmation bias -

ummmmm, no, that is not confirmation bias.  I even linked the definition for you.  And still you got it wrong.


kinda like when xyzzy stated that, just recently... in the past few decades, society has moved away from the notion that women are inherently inferior to men.  and i show her how jesus did in fact treat women equal to men, thus refuting her claim that society has just recently moved away from that notion...

ummmmm, no.  Let's assume for the moment that your allegation is accurate - that jesus H did treat women equal to men.  That does not refute that society only recently rejected gender inequality.  It only shows that one guy might have been ahead of his time. You said as much in your prior post:

i wasn't conflating my position with "christianity"... i was alining my position only with the teachings of one man.

get your story straight.  Otherwise someone might get the impression you are talking out your ass.

since i did not misuse the term...

you did. QED.

 
the rest of your post is irrelevant.

Ummmmmm, no.  Me being right about one has no bearing on the other.  You still misused the the term "metanarrative" and contradicted yourself.

if i knew how or had the inclination to give you a -darwin point... i might consider it.

oh, quick, someone bring the fainting couch and smelling salts.  I have been threatened with a smite.  However will I make it through my day?


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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #238 on: August 07, 2014, 09:18:24 AM »
ummmmm, no.  Let's assume for the moment that your allegation is accurate - that jesus H did treat women equal to men.  That does not refute that society only recently rejected gender inequality.  It only shows that one guy might have been ahead of his time. You said as much in your prior post:

yep, and the OP stated unequivocally that "society" had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men.  She did not say "most" of society, or a "large portion" of society, or give any indication of what "society" she was even talking about.  so one can only conclude that she was talking about 100% of every "society" on the planet, which would include 100% of every person on the planet who has ever lived... get it?

get your story straight.  Otherwise someone might get the impression you are talking out your ass.

i cannot help your lack of comprehension...


since i did not misuse the term...

you did. QED.

did not

the rest of your post is irrelevant.

the rest of your post is irrelevant... what, what... deja vu... i shall make this a permanent fixture on future exchanges.
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #239 on: August 07, 2014, 11:03:37 AM »
yep, and the OP stated unequivocally that "society" had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men.  She did not say "most" of society, or a "large portion" of society, or give any indication of what "society" she was even talking about.  so one can only conclude that she was talking about 100% of every "society" on the planet, which would include 100% of every person on the planet who has ever lived... get it?
Is there some reason you think an exaggerated strawman argument like this is going to accomplish anything meaningful?  It is not even slightly reasonable to conclude that if someone makes a general statement like "society had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men" that they in fact mean every single person in every single human society that has ever existed on the face of the Earth; if that were the case, there would have been no need for society to move away from that notion, because it would have never been held to begin with.

It is not even reasonable to conclude that it means every single person in every single society that exists on the planet today, since a few decades is well within normal human lifespans, and thus many of the people who were around when society did hold the notion that women were inferior to men are still alive today.  Therefore, your argument is patently ridiculous and is a clear strawman.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #240 on: August 07, 2014, 02:51:15 PM »
I must have missed those parts of the bible as a JW kid. The bible I read was telling me to shut up and let the men run things, to be submissive, that women were unclean, that women tempted men into sinfulness, that Eve brought all the trouble into the world, etc, etc...

that is a weird bible...
It's the same Bible that you have never read.
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Online Jag

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #241 on: August 07, 2014, 02:55:43 PM »
yep, and the OP stated unequivocally that "society" had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men.  She did not say "most" of society, or a "large portion" of society, or give any indication of what "society" she was even talking about.  so one can only conclude that she was talking about 100% of every "society" on the planet, which would include 100% of every person on the planet who has ever lived... get it?
Is there some reason you think an exaggerated strawman argument like this is going to accomplish anything meaningful?  It is not even slightly reasonable to conclude that if someone makes a general statement like "society had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men" that they in fact mean every single person in every single human society that has ever existed on the face of the Earth; if that were the case, there would have been no need for society to move away from that notion, because it would have never been held to begin with.

It is not even reasonable to conclude that it means every single person in every single society that exists on the planet today, since a few decades is well within normal human lifespans, and thus many of the people who were around when society did hold the notion that women were inferior to men are still alive today.  Therefore, your argument is patently ridiculous and is a clear strawman.

And in fact, none of this has anything to do with the actual OP, written by skeptic (a guy), 9 pages ago.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #242 on: August 07, 2014, 02:57:03 PM »
yep, and the OP stated unequivocally that "society" had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men.  She did not say "most" of society, or a "large portion" of society, or give any indication of what "society" she was even talking about.  so one can only conclude that she was talking about 100% of every "society" on the planet, which would include 100% of every person on the planet who has ever lived... get it?
Is there some reason you think an exaggerated strawman argument like this is going to accomplish anything meaningful?  It is not even slightly reasonable to conclude that if someone makes a general statement like "society had only recently, within the past few decades, moved away from the notion that women were inferior to men" that they in fact mean every single person in every single human society that has ever existed on the face of the Earth; if that were the case, there would have been no need for society to move away from that notion, because it would have never been held to begin with.

It is not even reasonable to conclude that it means every single person in every single society that exists on the planet today, since a few decades is well within normal human lifespans, and thus many of the people who were around when society did hold the notion that women were inferior to men are still alive today.  Therefore, your argument is patently ridiculous and is a clear strawman.

And in fact, none of this has anything to do with the actual OP, written by skeptic (a guy), 9 pages ago.

Glad I'm not the only one who realized it. I think frank callaway got his threads mixed up. Probably a years-old thread, given the subject.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #243 on: August 14, 2014, 10:09:35 PM »
Goddess/god belief does help sometimes, I just want it to be kept personal and out of schools and politics. Which unfortunately isn't possible with the small vocal minority of theists.

every 8th grader knows the american revolution was fought because of taxation without representation right...?  i say this because it is my belief that the history of our founder's strong faith and belief in god HAS been totally scrubbed from public schools and politics.  the founder's challenged the notion of the 'divine right of kings' and other societal issues based upon their beliefs in the scriptures. 

"the bible is the rock on which our republic rests" - andrew jackson

"america was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of holy scripture" - woodrow wilson

"no book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied and so profoundly meditated upon as the bible" - john quincy adams

"i say, for the human mind not to believe that there is in all this design, cause and effect up to an ultimate cause - a fabricator of all things, from matter and motion - their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms - and their regenerator into new and other forms" - thomas jefferson

there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"... kinda reminds me of ecclesiastes 1:9 what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.




How is Andrew Jackson a "Founding Father"?

How is Woodrow Wilson a "Founding Father"?

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