Author Topic: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?  (Read 3556 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #203 on: August 04, 2014, 11:55:36 AM »
This makes me think of a salesman standing at the door, attempting to sell me a product that I do not have sound reason for thinking is a real product (i.e. - it could be a scam). If I took your approach, I would say, "Sure, no problem!" and hand over my credit card - b/c, hey, "I still believe but don't know why". That method is an unreliable one for separating fact from fiction. The time to believe is after sufficient evidence has been presented. The default position should be (and nearly always is) skepticism (especially for extraordinary claims such as ones to the supernatural or miraculous). Any other method is (respectfully) sheer stupidity and foolishness. Why would you just hand over your credit card instead of being skeptical and withholding belief and/or judgment until there is sufficient evidence to warrant belief?

See...here's the thing.

I don't know if riley2112 is handing over his credit card carte blanche.  I think that riley2112 has paid the cover charge (saying 'yes' to the question 'does god exist'), but I'm not sure if he's bought any drinks.  Well, I guess he's gotten a drink - sounds like he ordered a water (saying 'yes' to the question 'did Jesus exist') or perhaps he bought a diet coke (saying 'yes' to the question 'does Jesus, a divine thingie-guy, exist).  He's now looking at the bar and trying to figure out if he wants to buy any of the drinks there.  Does he want to order a shot of well whiskey (accepting the premise 'god created reality'), does he want to get a generic vodka/tonic (accepting the premise 'god has an interest in your affairs'), does he get a glass of fine, expensive scotch (accepting the premise 'god produces miracles in response to imploring')...or does every drink look unappealing (untrue) and he should just leave the bar (no longer say 'yes' to the question 'does god exist')?

The question isn't so much why he would just hand his card over.  I think the more pertinent question is asking why he hasn't left the bar yet.

riley2112, I realize that I'm essentially saying that I don't think there is a whole lot to your belief in god.  That could be untrue, and your belief in the existence of some 'higher power thingie that can be labeled god' has more ramifications and consequence than simply you saying 'yes' to the question 'does god exist'.  But you need to start asking yourself what that 'more' is.  And if you keep wondering, over and over again, why you're in the bar in the first place...maybe it is time for you to leave it.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #204 on: August 05, 2014, 09:58:05 PM »
But, I would say that I would believe your grandfather rose from the dead if he had the same evidence that Jesus does.

I just gave you all the evidence you have to work with.  It is the exact same amount of evidence you have when it comes to Jesus.  You have one book with claims in it.  That's all.  Nothing more. 

You don't have an empty grave to go to.  You don't have video footage.  You don't have contemporary historians who speak about seeing my great great grandfather rising from the dead.  You don't have 500 people coming forward with eyewitness testimony.  You don't have a medical doctor declaring him dead one minute and alive three days later.  There is no evidence at all for my great great grandfather or for Jesus.  There is only the claim. 

To me, there's nothing hard to believe about a resurrection, since I believe in the soul. You put the soul back in the body, it reanimates.

And that's proving my point exactly about the whole confirmation bias thing.  This belief in a soul is part of the funneling I was talking about.  There is no evidence at all of a soul, yet that's part of the preconditioned belief system and you funnel your positions through it.  The evidence for people being resurrected at all is non-existent and you know it.  No one rises from the dead after 3 days.  No one.  It doesn't happen.  Yet you choose to believe it can happen because your belief system tells you it can.  Not only that, you make it sound like its as easy as screwing in a light bulb. 

In much the same way, If I truly believed in leprechauns, I might be chasing rainbows all day long in search of my pot of gold.  And while you may scoff at the silliness of the comparison, I'm quite serious in it.  Imagine what a person who seriously believed in leprechauns would be like...  Would they not make claims that finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow is a very real possibility?  Would they not find another persons tale of finding a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow incredibly compelling, and probably see it as evidence that those pots exist?  Yeah, they would.  Draw comparisons to yourself here, skeptic. 

The evidence for pots of gold at the end of rainbows is just as non-existent as the evidence for a resurrection.  Neither of them happen.  Or should I say... resurrections and pots of gold at the end of rainbows happen with the exact same frequency.  I can either continue to hold fast to that belief in leprechauns, and funnel my position through that belief, and constantly find excuses for why X doesn't happen, or Y does happen, or at some point I can start to realize that maybe pots of gold at the ends of rainbows are not real.   

Funny thing about belief... it doesn't have anything to do with the truth. 


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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #205 on: August 06, 2014, 08:59:05 AM »
I still believe in a higher power. Call it God ( for lack of a better name). I still believe in Jesus. ( and no, I can't tell you why .) which I find hard to understand. I mean you would think that I would have some reason to believe.
As for the bible. I question it a lot. As for why I believe. I really don't know. I have been looking for reasons to believe or not believe. Does not look like I am getting any where fast.. But I am still searching for the truth. Once I find the truth. God will either be there or he won't. Nice to see most of the gang still here..

It sounds really sad that you have not found evidence the evidence you want, and are trapped on the bridge.

If you want to read about how Yahweh was invented from other gods, there are some well researched books including - The Early History of God by Mark Smith. There are also some easier books on Asherah who was the wife of Yahweh. Finkelstein has written about the historical background.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #206 on: August 06, 2014, 09:08:45 AM »
I still believe in a higher power. Call it God ( for lack of a better name). I still believe in Jesus. ( and no, I can't tell you why .) which I find hard to understand. I mean you would think that I would have some reason to believe.
As for the bible. I question it a lot. As for why I believe. I really don't know. I have been looking for reasons to believe or not believe. Does not look like I am getting any where fast.. But I am still searching for the truth. Once I find the truth. God will either be there or he won't. Nice to see most of the gang still here..

It sounds really sad that you have not found evidence the evidence you want, and are trapped on the bridge.

If you want to read about how Yahweh was invented from other gods, there are some well researched books including - The Early History of God by Mark Smith. There are also some easier books on Asherah who was the wife of Yahweh. Finkelstein has written about the historical background.

2112, like many, is seeking absolute truth, so the question is... is absolute truth attainable...?  i mentioned in an earlier post that “evidence” can be rather subjective and support a number of worldviews depending on how you look at it.  in other words, you could say that all there IS, is evidence of a creator… a paradigm shift in your own worldview.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #207 on: August 06, 2014, 09:26:09 AM »
In the last few decades, society has made great strides in moving away from the rather silly assertion that women are inherently inferior to men and that they were "helpless little things". Consequently, women are now more empowered and achieve things that they'd previously been told that they couldn't do without the help of a man.

women’s status were limited by jewish law in ancient isreal.  they were considered inferior to men and under the authority of men.  throughout the gospel accounts of the ministry of jesus, his treatment towards women was radically opposed to the culture of the day.  he spoke of women as equal to men and accepted them in his inner circle, he gave honor to women which was in contrast to the mid-eastern beliefs of the day.  of course any objective account of the life of christ would show this to be true… but then again that probably doesn’t fit with your worldview which paints all religious beliefs with broad indignation.  what does screwtape call that again… oh yeah,  confirmation bias... that's what you have. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus%27_interactions_with_women

When, do you think Frank, that religious people will similarly stop believing that there are things that they can't do for themselves, and recognise that the articles that they thanked "god" for, were their own achievements?

interesting... are you suggesting there's such a thing as "free will"...?

Second, what ways can you think of that religious authorities might benefit from their [religious] followers constantly having their confidence and self-esteem undermined?

are you suggesting that absolute power and/or the abuse of authority only corrupts in the context of "religion"...?

Finally, do you think Christianity is any different from any other religion in the above examples? If not, why not?

refer to my first response.
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #208 on: August 06, 2014, 10:03:09 AM »
Did I hear my name?  Why, yes, I did.

what does screwtape call that again… oh yeah,  confirmation bias... that's what you have. 

He probably does have confirmation bias because everyone has it.  Those of us aware of it can (but do not always) overcome it.  But that is not what you described.  What you described was just bias.  Confirmation bias is a very specific hueristic that leads to problems with making accurate beliefs.  You should probably understand what confirmation bias is before you use the term.

As for your thesis that jesus H treated women well, I think that may be at least partially true.  But even if it is, you can find examples of misogyny in the NT that are supported in xian theology.  Paul hated women, as did several of the other apostles.  You can see how they treated Mary Mags when she found the tomb empty and they thought she was just being a stupid woman. 

In the end, I would say the NT is conflicted on the matter.  You can find chapters and verses that support either perspective. But overall, I would say xianity is on balance misogynistic.

So, I think you are the one with a little confirmation bias here.  That is, you have a point of view and considered only the evidence that supports your view, rather than also take into consideration evidence that contradicts it.


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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #209 on: August 06, 2014, 10:45:22 AM »
(S)He probably does have confirmation bias because everyone has it.  Those of us aware of it can (but do not always) overcome it.  But that is not what you described.  What you described was just bias.  Confirmation bias is a very specific hueristic that leads to problems with making accurate beliefs.  You should probably understand what confirmation bias is before you use the term.

potayto, potahto

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/potayto,_potahto

we're talking about a meta-narrative here... of course you can find support in the NT for either perspective, but keep in mind, i wasn't conflating my position with "christianity"... i was alining my position only with the teachings of one man.  christianity didn't spread like wildfire until after this man was gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #210 on: August 06, 2014, 11:40:15 AM »
I watched a documentary a couple of days ago about life in Israel around the time of the Roman occupation and Jesus in about 10 - 20 AD. It was based on whatever documents the historians could get hold of. The thing that struck me was was when they talked about the familiarity everyone back then had with death. Women lived on average to their late twenties, men a little bit more, with the infant mortality rate around 50%.
Everybody very familiar about death, everyone knowing they would probably lose a child or two, everyone knowing their time on this world was short.

It seems obvious to me this is where Christianity and every other religion came from; a closeness with death. I can't begin to think what it must feel like to lose a child, every time I think about losing one of mine I blank the thought; it must be a hell on Earth.
When those poor folks lost a lot of loved ones I can easily see how they would accept the story about life after death, and I don't blame them for that. That belief must have soothed the pain a lot.
A friend of mine is a children's hospital doctor; I asked him about parent's belief. Although medicine in his field is very good with a high success rate, they still lose some kids. He said when parents do believe, it makes a noticeable difference to their pain.

Goddess/god belief does help sometimes, I just want it to be kept personal and out of schools and politics. Which unfortunately isn't possible with the small vocal minority of theists.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #211 on: August 06, 2014, 12:45:31 PM »
(S)He probably does have confirmation bias because everyone has it.  Those of us aware of it can (but do not always) overcome it.  But that is not what you described.  What you described was just bias.  Confirmation bias is a very specific hueristic that leads to problems with making accurate beliefs.  You should probably understand what confirmation bias is before you use the term.

potayto, potahto

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/potayto,_potahto

we're talking about a meta-narrative here... of course you can find support in the NT for either perspective, but keep in mind, i wasn't conflating my position with "christianity"... i was alining my position only with the teachings of one man.  christianity didn't spread like wildfire until after this man was gone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity
And not even then, did it. Maybe three hundred years later maybe. And then it was enforced on people, at pain of death.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #212 on: August 06, 2014, 12:50:22 PM »
Goddess/god belief does help sometimes, I just want it to be kept personal and out of schools and politics. Which unfortunately isn't possible with the small vocal minority of theists.

every 8th grader knows the american revolution was fought because of taxation without representation right...?  i say this because it is my belief that the history of our founder's strong faith and belief in god HAS been totally scrubbed from public schools and politics.  the founder's challenged the notion of the 'divine right of kings' and other societal issues based upon their beliefs in the scriptures. 

"the bible is the rock on which our republic rests" - andrew jackson

"america was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of holy scripture" - woodrow wilson

"no book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied and so profoundly meditated upon as the bible" - john quincy adams

"i say, for the human mind not to believe that there is in all this design, cause and effect up to an ultimate cause - a fabricator of all things, from matter and motion - their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms - and their regenerator into new and other forms" - thomas jefferson

there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"... kinda reminds me of ecclesiastes 1:9 what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.


« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 12:52:41 PM by frank callaway »
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #213 on: August 06, 2014, 12:55:01 PM »
there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Only one of those actually relates to Evolution, and that's assuming you're being honest about the examples.
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Offline wright

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #214 on: August 06, 2014, 01:38:11 PM »


every 8th grader knows the american revolution was fought because of taxation without representation right...?  i say this because it is my belief that the history of our founder's strong faith and belief in god HAS been totally scrubbed from public schools and politics.  the founder's challenged the notion of the 'divine right of kings' and other societal issues based upon their beliefs in the scriptures. 

"the bible is the rock on which our republic rests" - andrew jackson

"america was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of holy scripture" - woodrow wilson

"no book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied and so profoundly meditated upon as the bible" - john quincy adams

"i say, for the human mind not to believe that there is in all this design, cause and effect up to an ultimate cause - a fabricator of all things, from matter and motion - their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms - and their regenerator into new and other forms" - thomas jefferson

there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.

Welcome to the forum, frank.

This "scrubbing" is hardly "total". No atheist regular here (AFAIK) would deny that many of the founders of the US were (broadly speaking) Christians and that this informed their politics and rhetoric. I admit to not having read a public primary or high-school history text for decades, but is there really no mention of that aspect of US history? This sounds like hyperbole on your part.

It seems to me what has happened in recent decades is that US public schools are realizing that to perpetuate Christian privilege (allowing teachers and administrators to openly spread their religion while on the job) is to invite very expensive and controversial lawsuits that are often won by the plaintiffs, as per the First Amendment. By correcting those policies, official and unofficial, they avoid both unnecessary expense and controversy, two things school boards tend to dislike.

The problem is that a vocal, often well-financed minority equate that loss of unconstitutional privilege with censorship and oppression. These are the ones that see teaching the solidly-grounded science behind evolutionary theory as "atheistic" and "unchristian". But to quote Jon Stewart talking to religious conservatives:
Quote
You’ve confused the war on religion with not always getting everything you want.

Do you have any specific examples of what you see as the religious history of the US being downplayed or ignored?


Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #215 on: August 06, 2014, 01:42:45 PM »
  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Do you know the difference between science and a guess?
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #216 on: August 06, 2014, 02:47:50 PM »


every 8th grader knows the american revolution was fought because of taxation without representation right...?  i say this because it is my belief that the history of our founder's strong faith and belief in god HAS been totally scrubbed from public schools and politics.  the founder's challenged the notion of the 'divine right of kings' and other societal issues based upon their beliefs in the scriptures. 

"the bible is the rock on which our republic rests" - andrew jackson

"america was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of holy scripture" - woodrow wilson

"no book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied and so profoundly meditated upon as the bible" - john quincy adams

"i say, for the human mind not to believe that there is in all this design, cause and effect up to an ultimate cause - a fabricator of all things, from matter and motion - their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms - and their regenerator into new and other forms" - thomas jefferson

there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.

Welcome to the forum, frank.

This "scrubbing" is hardly "total". No atheist regular here (AFAIK) would deny that many of the founders of the US were (broadly speaking) Christians and that this informed their politics and rhetoric. I admit to not having read a public primary or high-school history text for decades, but is there really no mention of that aspect of US history? This sounds like hyperbole on your part.

It seems to me what has happened in recent decades is that US public schools are realizing that to perpetuate Christian privilege (allowing teachers and administrators to openly spread their religion while on the job) is to invite very expensive and controversial lawsuits that are often won by the plaintiffs, as per the First Amendment. By correcting those policies, official and unofficial, they avoid both unnecessary expense and controversy, two things school boards tend to dislike.

The problem is that a vocal, often well-financed minority equate that loss of unconstitutional privilege with censorship and oppression. These are the ones that see teaching the solidly-grounded science behind evolutionary theory as "atheistic" and "unchristian". But to quote Jon Stewart talking to religious conservatives:
Quote
You’ve confused the war on religion with not always getting everything you want.

Do you have any specific examples of what you see as the religious history of the US being downplayed or ignored?

only what i can remember from my own experience.  and i must say, my history teachers were very good, but i don't recall the xtian aspect of our founders being central in my lessons... like it or not, agree with it or not... it's just the way it was.  and that's my point... i agree that proselytizing public school children is wrong, but i also think that schools tiptoe around any mention of the bible or xtians because like you stated, they're afraid of the lawsuit. 
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

-Jonathan Swift

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #217 on: August 06, 2014, 02:51:00 PM »
  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Do you know the difference between science and a guess?

do you mean theory and hypothesis...?
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

-Jonathan Swift

Offline One Above All

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #218 on: August 06, 2014, 02:56:06 PM »
  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Do you know the difference between science and a guess?

do you mean theory and hypothesis...?

I think this answers Foxy Freedom's question, but that's just me.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #219 on: August 06, 2014, 03:03:16 PM »
  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Do you know the difference between science and a guess?

do you mean theory and hypothesis...?

No, I mean the difference between science and a guess? Why were the ancient Greek writers not doing science? Why does evolution date from Darwin and Wallace and not ancient Greece? Why is a magical medieval explanation of something still a magical explanation even if it is proved by science that the answer is correct?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #220 on: August 06, 2014, 03:11:08 PM »
  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Do you know the difference between science and a guess?

Saying these guys developed the theory of evolution instead of Wallace, Darwin, et al, is like attributing the invention of the airplane to da Vinci.
http://www.da-vinci-inventions.com/flying-machine.aspx

Yeah, RenFair Man was really amazingly brilliant. He thought about flying machines a lot. He drew designs for them. But there would be no engine to power the thing for another 200 years. His designs, no matter how aerodynamically accurate and elegant, would never get off the ground.

So, it is not enough to have an idea, even a really good new idea, about the world. Philosophers and mystics come up with ideas about the world all the time. Myths, legends, and science fiction are full of good new ideas about the world. But the creators of Star Trek did not make working cell phones, space shuttles or laptop computers. It took actual scientists--inventors, engineers, designers and technicians to do that.[1]

You have to connect the good idea to reality, and see if it will fly. That is why ideas about evolution were not actual science until people like Darwin did observations, made hypotheses, tested them out and produced evidence in support of evolution.

Hint: A methodology that produces testable evidence is the difference between science, and a guess. That's why one is called "the scientific method" and the other is called "you got it right that time, you lucky bastid, but we don't know how you did it, and we cannot repeat it".
 
 1. We still don't have mind melds, but with computers that can interface with people's brains, we are getting close! This sh!t freaked me out! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface#MEG_and_MRI
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wright

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #221 on: August 06, 2014, 03:19:14 PM »
only what i can remember from my own experience.  and i must say, my history teachers were very good, but i don't recall the xtian aspect of our founders being central in my lessons... like it or not, agree with it or not... it's just the way it was.  and that's my point...

No argument that it existed. But why should it be central to any lesson plan, unless the class is specifically about US religious history? That aspect deserves mention and examination, but not to the point of special privilege.


i agree that proselytizing public school children is wrong, but i also think that schools tiptoe around any mention of the bible or xtians because like you stated, they're afraid of the lawsuit.

That could well be, and if that means kids aren't being taught the more controversial aspects of US history, I agree that's wrong. But I also think recent history shows that Christian theology has had unofficial, largely unrecognized sanction and privilege even in the public schools in the US. That this is being recognized and corrected does not equate to Christianity being censored and downplayed. The playing field is just being leveled, as the law of the land requires.


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Offline screwtape

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #222 on: August 06, 2014, 03:21:20 PM »

potayto, potahto

No.  Sorry.  That is not the case.  I am not trying to "stick it to you".  I am trying to help you.  I understand you may feel embarrassed about your error, and attempt to hand-wave it away.  You shouldn't do that, though.  It is important to you to learn the distinction, otherwise you will just make the same error, compounding the problem.

we're talking about a meta-narrative here...

Since you misused the term "confirmation bias", I do not believe you know what "meta-narrative" means.  Also, in context, it appears to contradict what you are saying in the next few sentences.  Please explain what you think the term means. 

allow me to help:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metanarrative

Please feel free to amend your post once you have a good grasp of what the word means.

Also, how old are you?

i was alining my position only with the teachings of one man. 

Interestingly, the teachings of one man was not the context of the questions asked of you.  The questions were broader. 

They also alluded to the fact that, despite jesus' alleged radical approach to women, xianity has been pretty down on women for about 1670 of its 1700 (or so) years.  And in many ways, it still is.  It seems that society has progressed in that area in spite of xianity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity

Thank you so much for this link.  It is full if interesting information.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #223 on: August 06, 2014, 04:50:21 PM »
No.  Sorry.  That is not the case.  I am not trying to "stick it to you".  I am trying to help you.  I understand you may feel embarrassed about your error, and attempt to hand-wave it away.  You shouldn't do that, though.  It is important to you to learn the distinction, otherwise you will just make the same error, compounding the problem.

ummmmm, yes, confirmation bias - when people filter out useful facts and opinions that don’t coincide with their preconceived notions... kinda like when xyzzy stated that, just recently... in the past few decades, society has moved away from the notion that women are inherently inferior to men.  and i show her how jesus did in fact treat women equal to men, thus refuting her claim that society has just recently moved away from that notion... but of course xyzzy already knew that, she just filtered it out because it didn't coincide with her preconceived notion...

Since you misused the term "confirmation bias"...

since i did not misuse the term... the rest of your post is irrelevant.  and i'm afraid this will also have a negative impact on your previous posts as well.  if i knew how or had the inclination to give you a -darwin point... i might consider it.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #224 on: August 06, 2014, 04:59:13 PM »
[…] Christianity is not like the other religions of just listening to someone's claim. The early Christians would have eyewitness testimony to the Resurrection. If the Resurrection was bollocks, it would have died.

By Zeus this reply irked me. Must have been a combination of the bold and underline. skeptic, I’m late to the game in this thread, and I’m glad to see you’re well and still around debating but I’m a little disappointed with your apologetics here.

It’s been explained to you in the past why eyewitness testimony is unreliable. To misquote the Dude: “That isn’t, like, my opinion man.” It’s a fact. It’s unreliable. Here's a refresher. And let’s be crystal clear here- Christianity doesn’t even have any eyewitness accounts. All we have are secondhand accounts of eyewitness accounts. An unknown author that wrote the Gospel of Luke who wrote about another person that saw Jesus preach isn’t reliable, and it sure as hell isn’t an eyewitness account. It’s as comical as Tropic Thunder. He’s a dude writin' about a dude that supposedly saw another dude!

it is completely different from anything else.

On the contrary, it’s exactly like modern Indian gurus, or for that matter anyone that used ancient parlor tricks to gather followers. These con men perform “miracles” in front of thousands upon thousands of people by creating jewels and holy ash from thin air. These so called gurus have hundreds and thousands of actual eyewitness testimonies. Right now. In our day and age. Believers not by faith but by eyewitness accounts. While you can only imagine watching Jesus turn water into wine, somewhere in India these guys are literally witnessing these "miracles" happen. But is that any reason to believe these guys are legit prophets and divine beings in the flesh? No. So, why should anyone be persuaded by these thousand year old copies of manuscripts of secondhand writings of supposed testimonies of the same type of miracles?

You said IF the story of the Resurrection of Christ was bollocks it would have died, but here we have modern examples of Indian gurus performing miracles which were proven to be bollocks, yet they still thrive on ignorance and eyewitness testimonies and word of mouth. So the popularity and spread of the Gospel stories has no bearing on their validity. More likely than not it's the same ol' run of the mill bollocks.
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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #225 on: August 06, 2014, 05:01:26 PM »
  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"...

Do you know the difference between science and a guess?

Saying these guys developed the theory of evolution instead of Wallace, Darwin, et al, is like attributing the invention of the airplane to da Vinci.
http://www.da-vinci-inventions.com/flying-machine.aspx

Yeah, RenFair Man was really amazingly brilliant. He thought about flying machines a lot. He drew designs for them. But there would be no engine to power the thing for another 200 years. His designs, no matter how aerodynamically accurate and elegant, would never get off the ground.

So, it is not enough to have an idea, even a really good new idea, about the world. Philosophers and mystics come up with ideas about the world all the time. Myths, legends, and science fiction are full of good new ideas about the world. But the creators of Star Trek did not make working cell phones, space shuttles or laptop computers. It took actual scientists--inventors, engineers, designers and technicians to do that.[1]

You have to connect the good idea to reality, and see if it will fly. That is why ideas about evolution were not actual science until people like Darwin did observations, made hypotheses, tested them out and produced evidence in support of evolution.

Hint: A methodology that produces testable evidence is the difference between science, and a guess. That's why one is called "the scientific method" and the other is called "you got it right that time, you lucky bastid, but we don't know how you did it, and we cannot repeat it".
 1. We still don't have mind melds, but with computers that can interface with people's brains, we are getting close! This sh!t freaked me out! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%80%93computer_interface#MEG_and_MRI

apparently my response of "do you mean theory and hypothesis...?" was taken seriously... it was an attempt at being a smart ass... which i have been known to be, although not the worst from those who accuse me.

but i have a question for you nogodsforme... what do you think of those "captain obvious" commercials...?  it's the first thing that came to mind after reading this post...
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

-Jonathan Swift

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #226 on: August 06, 2014, 05:32:24 PM »
Whoa, fc, what government did Jesus run, where these egalitarian laws regarding women were enforced? Are you really trying to say that, because one guy, Jesus,  was sometimes nice to women, the whole world immediately became a women-oriented place? Beginning in 35 AD? Seriously?

How did I forget that huge, woman-friendly ancient Christian society led by Jesus, where everyone had equal rights, nobody was subservient or enslaved, and women took their places of leadership and authority alongside of men? 

I must have missed those parts of the bible as a JW kid. The bible I read was telling me to shut up and let the men run things, to be submissive, that women were unclean, that women tempted men into sinfulness, that Eve brought all the trouble into the world, etc, etc. Those were "preconceived notions" that I (and evidently a lot of other people) got from the bible.

If Jesus existed, he was just one minor rabbi, a rebel and a hippie, maybe even a rabble rouser--but he gathered no instant mass following. Nobody important even seemed to notice the members for hundreds of years.  His followers were a minor and insignificant sect with no political power until the Roman emperor adopted the religion and forced everyone in the empire to join.

It took hundreds of years and many changes in the teachings of Jesus (first by Saul of Tarsus and later by the Roman councils and even later by the Protestant reformers) before something vaguely recognizeable as modern Christianity caught on in most European countries.

Equal rights for men of all races and classes, the abolition of slavery, and the emancipation of women did not accompany the conversion of the pagan masses to Christianity. Unless medieval feudal Europe looked a lot different than we thought!

Those political and economic improvements were gained by social revolutions starting in the 18th and 19th centuries. Those principles were not originally part of any branch of early Christianity. Religion was much more likely to be used by the powerful to maintain the status quo than to make radical changes.[1]

Or did Jesus advocate for women's education, suffrage, inheritance and property rights and I somehow missed that? How Jesus personally treated women had no effect on the laws of the countries that later adopted Christianity.
 1. Who are the people most likely to suppress freedom for women around the world today? Are religious groups or secular ones trying to keep girls ignorant and unskilled, raping them for daring to be outside their homes, kidnapping them or throwing acid on them for going to school?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #227 on: August 06, 2014, 05:37:17 PM »
One person's obvious fraud or mistake is another person's miraculous godly mystery.

BTW fc, if everything about the universe was obvious and did not need explaining, it would be a rather boring place, don't you agree? And, no I have not seen any Captain Obvious commercials. Would my life be better if I had seen them? :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wright

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #228 on: August 06, 2014, 05:40:36 PM »
ummmmm, yes, confirmation bias - when people filter out useful facts and opinions that don’t coincide with their preconceived notions... kinda like when xyzzy stated that, just recently... in the past few decades, society has moved away from the notion that women are inherently inferior to men.  and i show her how jesus did in fact treat women equal to men, thus refuting her claim that society has just recently moved away from that notion... but of course xyzzy already knew that, she just filtered it out because it didn't coincide with her preconceived notion...

How does it refute her claim? Are you saying that Roman Palestine was somehow rendered gender-equal by Christian teachings about 2000 years ago? A few local rabble-rousers espousing such concepts clearly didn't have much if any effect at the time.

With few exceptions, patriarchial social views prevailed until the last few hundred years of human history. Yes, there have historically been exceptions and if some early Christians did in fact have a more egalitarian view they would be included. But widespread acceptance and practice of such ideas has only happened recently.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #229 on: August 06, 2014, 05:57:00 PM »
every 8th grader knows the american revolution was fought because of taxation without representation right...?
And broadly, that's why they are 8th graders: there was a bit more to it than that.
Quote
i say this because it is my belief that the history of our founder's strong faith and belief in god HAS been totally scrubbed from public schools and politics.
Their faith, at least the public expression of their faith, was not particularly strong. They had seen the injustices done in Europe and they set in stone the right to have your faith, regardless of what it was and they specifically excluded the state having a role in faith.
Quote
the founder's challenged the notion of the 'divine right of kings' and other societal issues based upon their beliefs in the scriptures.
And that is why the people are left to their own resources as far as faith is concerned: the state is neutral.

Quote
Andrew Jackson

“I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation form the political concerns of the General Government.” (letter explaining his refusal to proclaim a national day of, among other things, prayer.)

Quote
woodrow Wilson
Where was he in 1776?

Quote
John Quincy Adams
“There are in this country, as in all others, a certain proportion of restless and turbulent spirits - poor, unoccupied, ambitious - who must always have something to quarrel about with their neighbors. These people are the authors of religious revivals.”

Quote
Thomas Jefferson
Have you every read of the Jefferson Bible
Quote
The Jefferson Bible, or The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth as it is formally titled, was a book constructed by Thomas Jefferson in the latter years of his life by cutting and pasting with a razor and glue numerous sections from the New Testament as extractions of the doctrine of Jesus. Jefferson's condensed composition is especially notable for its exclusion of all miracles by Jesus and most mentions of the supernatural, including sections of the four gospels which contain the Resurrection and most other miracles, and passages indicating Jesus was divine
Or used these quotes: •  “The serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous.”
•  “I join you [John Adams], therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character.”

Quote
there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.
Well, I’ve got lots of quotes to say that those above were often deists rather than Christian, and for good reason.

The “scriptural foundation is a myth – like the scriptures.
Quote
it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.
Your understanding of scince is about the same as your understanding of the constitution and history.
Quote
but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"...
All those things that were shown to be misguided and inaccurate – very similar to that book “The Bible” written years ago and which can be shown to be misguided and inaccurate ... The trouble is, we have moved on from those early attempt at explanation, but you seem to be stuck with Bronze-Age science.
Quote
kinda reminds me of ecclesiastes 1:9 what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
Yes, until we learn by our mistakes, admit them and correct them, there will be no progress. Why do you think that some people still believe that there is an Israeli tribal god up above the sky who helps us?

Frank,
You listen a lot to Fox News, don’t you?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2014, 05:58:31 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #230 on: August 06, 2014, 06:33:35 PM »
apparently my response of "do you mean theory and hypothesis...?" was taken seriously... it was an attempt at being a smart ass... which i have been known to be, although not the worst from those who accuse me.

Anything you can say as a smart ass, or as sarcasm, or as a joke, has already been said on this site by someone who meant it seriously. Too much smart ass and you lose all credibility.

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #231 on: August 06, 2014, 07:01:17 PM »
Goddess/god belief does help sometimes, I just want it to be kept personal and out of schools and politics. Which unfortunately isn't possible with the small vocal minority of theists.

every 8th grader knows the american revolution was fought because of taxation without representation right...?  i say this because it is my belief that the history of our founder's strong faith and belief in god HAS been totally scrubbed from public schools and politics.  the founder's challenged the notion of the 'divine right of kings' and other societal issues based upon their beliefs in the scriptures. 

"the bible is the rock on which our republic rests" - andrew jackson

"america was born to exemplify that devotion to the elements of righteousness which are derived from the revelations of holy scripture" - woodrow wilson

"no book in the world deserves to be so unceasingly studied and so profoundly meditated upon as the bible" - john quincy adams

"i say, for the human mind not to believe that there is in all this design, cause and effect up to an ultimate cause - a fabricator of all things, from matter and motion - their preserver and regulator while permitted to exist in their present forms - and their regenerator into new and other forms" - thomas jefferson

there are literally hundreds if not thousands of similar quotes, but now it seems that little evidence of the scriptural foundation remains in our classrooms.  it's like how many today believe the theory of evolution is the product of darwin.  but history shows us that anaximander (610-546 b.c.) introduced the theory of "spontaneous generation"...  diogenes (412-323 b.c.) had the concept of "primordial slime"... empedocles (495-455 b.c) introduced the theory of "natural selection" or "survival of the fittest"... kinda reminds me of ecclesiastes 1:9 what has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.
if all this was true and the founders followed the teachings of this one man(Jesus), the blood of 60 million aboriginals would not be on their hands.... Love thy neighbour and all that.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)