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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #145 on: July 21, 2014, 07:56:13 PM »
I guess I can not prove Jesus to you. What evidence would you accept, anyway? Would you have to feel his nail marks like Thomas? Is that the only thing that can possibly prove Jesus to you?


When it comes to the belief in Jesus, you have to have a shared starting point.  That starting point, for everyone, is the bible.  At the very least, I think it is safe to say that everyone agrees Jesus is a character in a book.  Whether he was real or not, he was definitely a character in a book. 

Now, be honest with yourself here... If you went into any library in the world and found a book (other than the bible) that claimed one of the characters (say, the author's great, great grandfather) died and rose from the dead, would you immediately lean toward the book being fact or fiction?  And what if it said that 500 people saw this man a few days after he died, but none of those 500 people ever came forward to corroborate?  And what if the book said that a couple went to his grave a few days later and it was all dug up and nothing was there? Would that be enough to actually convince you that this man rose from the dead? Of course not. The author could simply be making it up.  People make stuff up all the time. 

Now ask yourself what sort of evidence that the rest of the book would have to contain in order to convince you that the person actually rose from the dead.  It would take a lot, right?  If you want to know what it would take to convince me that Jesus really died and rose from the dead, then just think about what it would take for me to convince you that my great, great grandfather did it.  It wouldn't be flying plates, bloody walls, visions of the great, great grandfather, dreams, emotional highs, or anything else like that.  It would take evidence. 

If you are using anything short of that same criteria when it comes to Jesus, then you are suppressing your very own skepticism in favor of confirmation bias, and you're simply funneling your personal experiences through that confirmation bias position.  People in every religion do that.  I know you don't think YOU do that, but nobody thinks they do that.  Nobody. 

Given the evidence, it's just vastly more reasonable to think it's all made up and that you're just like all the other religious people out there.
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #146 on: July 21, 2014, 08:24:17 PM »
Welcome back Jeff
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #147 on: July 21, 2014, 09:43:25 PM »
 :)
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline median

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #148 on: July 22, 2014, 01:29:35 AM »
Median, how has Skeptic come to the Jesus conclusion without first ruling our demons either posing as Jesus or leaving him to conclude Jesus without analysis first?  Without Skeptic doing self analysis he can't rule out demon deception.  Skeptic, of course jumped to the conclusion of Jesus. Skeptic could be spreading a false gospel for demons because he failed to actually be well....... skeptical, how is that for irony?

My guess is, he will cite you the passage that says, "You shall know them by their fruits" and then attempt to spin or rationalize the counter-examples which demonstrate that even the alleged 'demons' do what appear to be good works (i.e. - bear 'good fruit' - so as to trick people and lead them off the path). Under his own theology HE HIMSELF cannot be sure of salvation. Of course, all of this just muddies the waters b/c these types of doctrine charades are done by every fictitious religionist who accepts superstition as fact.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #149 on: July 22, 2014, 01:41:07 AM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.

I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.

So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?

This ex Christian gives an indepth reason why he no longer believes in the Christian god or any other god. When you get the time to check out his de conversion story, please do so. He also explains how monotheism started, and when the Christian god first came about, which pertains to your question as the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?annotation_id=annotation_37010&feature=iv&p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&src_vid=MlnnWbkMlbg

If you want to see how monotheism came from polytheism, and your Christian god came to be, watch the 2 videos he did on "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong.


Offline epidemic

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #150 on: July 22, 2014, 11:52:48 AM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.

I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.

So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?

This ex Christian gives an indepth reason why he no longer believes in the Christian god or any other god. When you get the time to check out his de conversion story, please do so. He also explains how monotheism started, and when the Christian god first came about, which pertains to your question as the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?annotation_id=annotation_37010&feature=iv&p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&src_vid=MlnnWbkMlbg

If you want to see how monotheism came from polytheism, and your Christian god came to be, watch the 2 videos he did on "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong.



I watched his whole video series.  I enjoyed it.  I did also find it enligtening how he dissects the whole origins of the bible.  His tale is quite different than  Lee Strobel's The Case For Christ.  In this book they show how all the books of the bible have just the right amount of errors as well as corroberations as to be 98% historically accurate or something like that.

« Last Edit: July 22, 2014, 11:58:01 AM by epidemic »

Offline Betelnut

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #151 on: July 24, 2014, 07:45:21 PM »
Read "The History of God" by Karen Armstrong--an excellent book.  Essentially, Christianity is an sect of Judaism.  So a better question would be, How Did Judaism Start?

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #152 on: July 24, 2014, 10:59:28 PM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.

I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.

So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?

This ex Christian gives an indepth reason why he no longer believes in the Christian god or any other god. When you get the time to check out his de conversion story, please do so. He also explains how monotheism started, and when the Christian god first came about, which pertains to your question as the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?annotation_id=annotation_37010&feature=iv&p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&src_vid=MlnnWbkMlbg

If you want to see how monotheism came from polytheism, and your Christian god came to be, watch the 2 videos he did on "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong.



Now, that is certainly interesting. The problem is that one must not swallow all of this information whole without being at least a tad bit skeptical of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't know if it was propaganda or not. You can say it's true, but it might be propaganda and likewise you might say it's propaganda but it might be true.

Now with that in mind, we must ask ourselves a common sense question: Would it have persisted for over 3,000 years if it can so simply and easily be proven wrong by a youtube video? I mean, the Jews of 2,000 years ago didn't have youtube so how would they know their religion is false? Seems like a "no-brainer," doesn't it?

Or is there something deeper going on here?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #153 on: July 25, 2014, 02:44:43 AM »
Now, that is certainly interesting. The problem is that one must not swallow all of this information whole without being at least a tad bit skeptical of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't know if it was propaganda or not. You can say it's true, but it might be propaganda and likewise you might say it's propaganda but it might be true.

Now with that in mind, we must ask ourselves a common sense question: Would it have persisted for over 3,000 years if it can so simply and easily be proven wrong by a youtube video? I mean, the Jews of 2,000 years ago didn't have youtube so how would they know their religion is false? Seems like a "no-brainer," doesn't it?

Or is there something deeper going on here?

Religions don't persist because they are right or wrong, but because people find them useful, for example, in controlling other people's thoughts.

Your thoughts are being controlled. Remember how you accepted that muslim propaganda video?When someone tells you how Yahweh was invented, you won't accept the truth.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #154 on: July 25, 2014, 07:32:07 AM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.

I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.

So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?

This ex Christian gives an indepth reason why he no longer believes in the Christian god or any other god. When you get the time to check out his de conversion story, please do so. He also explains how monotheism started, and when the Christian god first came about, which pertains to your question as the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?annotation_id=annotation_37010&feature=iv&p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&src_vid=MlnnWbkMlbg

If you want to see how monotheism came from polytheism, and your Christian god came to be, watch the 2 videos he did on "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong.



Now, that is certainly interesting. The problem is that one must not swallow all of this information whole without being at least a tad bit skeptical of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't know if it was propaganda or not. You can say it's true, but it might be propaganda and likewise you might say it's propaganda but it might be true.

Now with that in mind, we must ask ourselves a common sense question: Would it have persisted for over 3,000 years if it can so simply and easily be proven wrong by a youtube video? I mean, the Jews of 2,000 years ago didn't have youtube so how would they know their religion is false? Seems like a "no-brainer," doesn't it?

Or is there something deeper going on here?


As a skeptic, you might want to research it rather than defaulting to thinking it is propaganda.  If you need proof  people would follow a false religion for centuries, well just look at Islam, Mormonism or any other religion that is not yours. OK now that we have established that people will follow false religions for thousands of years we know it is possible.  Reason would dicatate that Judahism could be subject to the same flaws.

Perhaps research into the historiocity of the evolution of Judahism from polytheism might be enligtening. 


PS did you just look at the clip or did you look at his entire 2 hour series?

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #155 on: July 25, 2014, 08:01:09 AM »
He absolutely should be skeptical.   But the problem with believers who are skeptical is that if he checks his facts with a pastor who is financially committed in his career to "debunking" skeptics of Christianity, he's not going to get the real answers.

But Skeptic, I'd honestly check with a local college history teacher if you have a shot... I went to a Catholic College and the guy who taught History of Western Europe was intellectually honest and taught us about "the great schism", "papal indulgences" and "the inquisition".

The origins of Christianity are the same... just study other, older religions where there's no agenda against Christianity ok?   You'll see other variations of the golden rule.  You'll see other variations of the Jesus story.   How did they get there?    Was God tricking us all again?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline median

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #156 on: July 25, 2014, 11:41:54 AM »

Now, that is certainly interesting. The problem is that one must not swallow all of this information whole without being at least a tad bit skeptical of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't know if it was propaganda or not. You can say it's true, but it might be propaganda and likewise you might say it's propaganda but it might be true.

Now with that in mind, we must ask ourselves a common sense question: Would it have persisted for over 3,000 years if it can so simply and easily be proven wrong by a youtube video? I mean, the Jews of 2,000 years ago didn't have youtube so how would they know their religion is false? Seems like a "no-brainer," doesn't it?

Or is there something deeper going on here?

The "deeper" part you are missing is that the persistence of an idea (or set of teachings) has no bearing on whether or not it is true. Islam is a perfect example of this. Their beliefs have persisted too. Does that make them true? There simply is no time limit or expiration date on false beliefs b/c we know people believe false things for their entire lives sometimes. So this standard you are attempting to use is faulty. It is unreliable for separating true claims from false claims because false beliefs can last just as long as true ones.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline epidemic

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #157 on: July 25, 2014, 02:00:43 PM »

Now, that is certainly interesting. The problem is that one must not swallow all of this information whole without being at least a tad bit skeptical of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't know if it was propaganda or not. You can say it's true, but it might be propaganda and likewise you might say it's propaganda but it might be true.

Now with that in mind, we must ask ourselves a common sense question: Would it have persisted for over 3,000 years if it can so simply and easily be proven wrong by a youtube video? I mean, the Jews of 2,000 years ago didn't have youtube so how would they know their religion is false? Seems like a "no-brainer," doesn't it?

Or is there something deeper going on here?

The "deeper" part you are missing is that the persistence of an idea (or set of teachings) has no bearing on whether or not it is true. Islam is a perfect example of this. Their beliefs have persisted too. Does that make them true? There simply is no time limit or expiration date on false beliefs b/c we know people believe false things for their entire lives sometimes. So this standard you are attempting to use is faulty. It is unreliable for separating true claims from false claims because false beliefs can last just as long as true ones.

I am not sure how persistent these teachings are either.  There were many retellings and modifications to the Torah.  The New Testament went off in all directions for a few hundred years until they had a religious group pick and choose which stories they wished to follow.  With the printed word and the crushing of alternative views and one body overseeing what was gospel we see stabilization.

Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #158 on: July 25, 2014, 03:15:40 PM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.

I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.

So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?

How did Christianity start? I don't know. But, I do know that even when the facts are easily researched, folks still find a way to believe what they want to believe. And what they want to believe isn't always good for them. Take homeopathy, for example. Not only has it not been shown to work, but it's been shown not to work. But, people still buy that stuff.

Scientology is another perfect example. Here we have a religion that was started in modern times, has no backing evidence, and even has some things directly pointing to it being a complete con. None of that stops believers from defending it with a passion.

It does not at all seem improbable to me that ancient peoples started believing something like the resurrection.

Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #159 on: July 25, 2014, 10:14:20 PM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.

I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.

So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?

This ex Christian gives an indepth reason why he no longer believes in the Christian god or any other god. When you get the time to check out his de conversion story, please do so. He also explains how monotheism started, and when the Christian god first came about, which pertains to your question as the OP.

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?annotation_id=annotation_37010&feature=iv&p=A0C3C1D163BE880A&src_vid=MlnnWbkMlbg

If you want to see how monotheism came from polytheism, and your Christian god came to be, watch the 2 videos he did on "A History Of God" by Karen Armstrong.



Now, that is certainly interesting. The problem is that one must not swallow all of this information whole without being at least a tad bit skeptical of it. Otherwise, you wouldn't know if it was propaganda or not. You can say it's true, but it might be propaganda and likewise you might say it's propaganda but it might be true.

Now with that in mind, we must ask ourselves a common sense question: Would it have persisted for over 3,000 years if it can so simply and easily be proven wrong by a youtube video? I mean, the Jews of 2,000 years ago didn't have youtube so how would they know their religion is false? Seems like a "no-brainer," doesn't it?

Or is there something deeper going on here?

Well, it's a plus that you feel it's interesting, at least you didn't say it was bullshit. The problem is, is that you swallowed the Christianity pill without being skeptical of it. The guy that did that video based it on the book by Karen Armstrong, who did indepth research on the history of gods. The people who base their beliefs by propaganda are Christians, just do your research....skeptic.

Like I said, it's not just someone making a Youtube video, it was a person who did massive amounts of research to write a book on the subject.

The only thing going on deeper is Christian bullshit, we've all been sinking in it for many years. Thing is, some of chose to start swimming towards the truth.

BTW, Did you watch any of his other videos, his de conversion videos? I always say that a believer should ask an ex believer why they stopped believing. The guy is very nice and will answer any of your questions.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 10:16:17 PM by Eddie Schultz »

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #160 on: July 25, 2014, 11:54:27 PM »
Well, it's a plus that you feel it's interesting, at least you didn't say it was bullshit. The problem is, is that you swallowed the Christianity pill without being skeptical of it. The guy that did that video based it on the book by Karen Armstrong, who did indepth research on the history of gods. The people who base their beliefs by propaganda are Christians, just do your research....skeptic.

Like I said, it's not just someone making a Youtube video, it was a person who did massive amounts of research to write a book on the subject.

The only thing going on deeper is Christian bullshit, we've all been sinking in it for many years. Thing is, some of chose to start swimming towards the truth.

I see what you are saying that she put in time and effort into her work, but people put lots of time and effort into things.

Jeffrey Dahmer put a lot of time and effort into killing people, but that doesn't mean it was right. Obviously, I'm not comparing this woman to Jeffrey Dahmer at all, but I am just saying that just because something was full of time and effort does not automatically make it the truth.

BTW, Did you watch any of his other videos, his de conversion videos? I always say that a believer should ask an ex believer why they stopped believing. The guy is very nice and will answer any of your questions.

But why should I find it convincing that someone stopped believing? When I tell you guys why I am an ex-atheist and started believing, you don't want to hear it. You say I wasn't a true atheist or that I was heavily deluded.

That certainly doesn't seem very fair, does it?




Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #161 on: July 26, 2014, 12:00:32 AM »
How did Christianity start? I don't know. But, I do know that even when the facts are easily researched, folks still find a way to believe what they want to believe. And what they want to believe isn't always good for them. Take homeopathy, for example. Not only has it not been shown to work, but it's been shown not to work. But, people still buy that stuff.

Scientology is another perfect example. Here we have a religion that was started in modern times, has no backing evidence, and even has some things directly pointing to it being a complete con. None of that stops believers from defending it with a passion.

It does not at all seem improbable to me that ancient peoples started believing something like the resurrection.

Now that is very true. Hubbard himself said that he made it up as a joke to make money and yet people still defend it. Excellent point. How does one differentiate a false belief from a true belief? Well, I would say the founder making a statement that it's a joke should prove it's false. We have no such statement about Christianity though. Of course, we don't have a statement from Joseph Smith either saying Mormonism is false, but Mormonism has been proven wrong by history experts who have proven Jesus never visited the Native Americans.

So that is 2 religions that are easily proven false and people still defend them. Of course, my belief is that demons answer their prayers and keep them in the religions, but why do you guys think people still believe it even with the proof those 2 are wrong? Also, is it reasonable to believe in Christianity, considering it has never been proven wrong?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #162 on: July 26, 2014, 12:13:30 AM »
Well, it's a plus that you feel it's interesting, at least you didn't say it was bullshit. The problem is, is that you swallowed the Christianity pill without being skeptical of it. The guy that did that video based it on the book by Karen Armstrong, who did indepth research on the history of gods. The people who base their beliefs by propaganda are Christians, just do your research....skeptic.

Like I said, it's not just someone making a Youtube video, it was a person who did massive amounts of research to write a book on the subject.

The only thing going on deeper is Christian bullshit, we've all been sinking in it for many years. Thing is, some of chose to start swimming towards the truth.

I see what you are saying that she put in time and effort into her work, but people put lots of time and effort into things.

Jeffrey Dahmer put a lot of time and effort into killing people, but that doesn't mean it was right. Obviously, I'm not comparing this woman to Jeffrey Dahmer at all, but I am just saying that just because something was full of time and effort does not automatically make it the truth.

BTW, Did you watch any of his other videos, his de conversion videos? I always say that a believer should ask an ex believer why they stopped believing. The guy is very nice and will answer any of your questions.

But why should I find it convincing that someone stopped believing? When I tell you guys why I am an ex-atheist and started believing, you don't want to hear it. You say I wasn't a true atheist or that I was heavily deluded.

That certainly doesn't seem very fair, does it?

Ok, point me to where you told others here how you were an atheist and became a believer in the Christian god, I missed it. How much time did you put into not believing a god exists, to believing the Christian god exists? Probably as much as Kirk Cameron, who said he was a "staunch atheist". He has been put in his place numerous times, yet he still keeps spouting the same bullshit as if it's something new, as all Christians do.

If your reason for becoming a Christian is so strong, with evidence to support it, other than personal experience, us atheists and ex Christians would surely give it some merit, don't you think?

You'll find many more ex Christians in the world than you will ex atheists. Those that become ex atheists really don't have a good reason to start believing in a god, especially the Christian god. There is no significance of the Christian god than any other god that people have devoted their lives to over millennia. You basically believe out of fear of the unknown. Think about that.

Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #163 on: July 26, 2014, 12:16:27 AM »
How did Christianity start? I don't know. But, I do know that even when the facts are easily researched, folks still find a way to believe what they want to believe. And what they want to believe isn't always good for them. Take homeopathy, for example. Not only has it not been shown to work, but it's been shown not to work. But, people still buy that stuff.

Scientology is another perfect example. Here we have a religion that was started in modern times, has no backing evidence, and even has some things directly pointing to it being a complete con. None of that stops believers from defending it with a passion.

It does not at all seem improbable to me that ancient peoples started believing something like the resurrection.

Now that is very true. Hubbard himself said that he made it up as a joke to make money and yet people still defend it. Excellent point. How does one differentiate a false belief from a true belief? Well, I would say the founder making a statement that it's a joke should prove it's false. We have no such statement about Christianity though. Of course, we don't have a statement from Joseph Smith either saying Mormonism is false, but Mormonism has been proven wrong by history experts who have proven Jesus never visited the Native Americans.

So that is 2 religions that are easily proven false and people still defend them. Of course, my belief is that demons answer their prayers and keep them in the religions, but why do you guys think people still believe it even with the proof those 2 are wrong? Also, is it reasonable to believe in Christianity, considering it has never been proven wrong?

Once you give your answer to the other thread, if you have one, you'll see that Christianity is proven false. This thread.

Re: Atheists - Do you hate individual Theists just because they are?

Then what?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 12:24:55 AM by Eddie Schultz »

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #164 on: July 26, 2014, 12:44:06 AM »
Also, is it reasonable to believe in Christianity, considering it has never been proven wrong?

Where has hinduism been proven wrong? Buddhism?

How was Greek mythology proven to be wrong? You do realize that there are still people living in Greece who believe in the Greek pantheon of gods, as they call it. And they consider their country under christian occupation. Do you have a way to prove to them that their gods are not real? Is there something you can say to them about their gods that doesn't apply to your own? That disproves them?

Or are you forced to accept that all claims of gods are equally legitimate unless fraud is detectable. Such as with mormons and such. If a cultural group claims it has gods and those gods are real, how in the world can you proclaim them to be wrong and yourself right using the exact same standards? They have no proof that their god is real, you have no proof that yours is. They are forced to believe because proof doesn't exist, as are you.Their gods haven't shown up in person and introduced themselves to the masses, nor has your god.

I've always wondered this. If there is a real god, why would be play exactly the same game as all the false gods; i.e., why would he be just as invisible and require exactly as much belief/faith? You'd think a real go could avoid the flaws of a fake religion, you know, by being a bit more forthright and stuff. But if the hindu or christian or greek gods are real and none of the others are, the real god(s) appear to be unconcerned.

No far-fetched claim can be disproven unless the claimants make the mistake of being too specific. Something neither the hindus or christians have done. And when specific claims are made (such as a specific day for jc to return) and it doesn't happen, there is always a human individual willing to explain why they were wrong. Their unmet predictions/claims/etc. never involved the god itself. The dude(s) and, if applicable, dudettes, always get off scott free.

So nope, we can't disprove gods. Just as we can't disprove the Icelandic little people, the Huldufólk. In Iceland, it is illegal to throw rocks, because you might hit their version of a leprechaun. And over half the population thinks that the Huldufólk are real. You can't disprove it. Is that, in and of itself, a good enough reason to believe them to be real?

The reason I initially became an atheist as a child (at around 10 or 11) was that I was being taught all about Greek mythology during the week at school, and then being told virtually identical stories in Sunday school as if they were real. And while you can fool some of the people some of the time, you can't food all the people all of the time, and in my case, the acceptance of religious claims came to a grinding halt..

Over half a century later, I'm confident I made the right choice. And you can't prove me wrong.

So if neither side can prove the other one wrong, why should a person go with the positive claim? Why, when every christian story sounds just like Achilles being dipped in the pool, should I say to myself "Oh, that sounds real. Yea, sure, I can see a big boat full of animals really happening. And the garden thingy. It could happen…"

I can't think of a reason in the world to take christian claims seriously. Not a single one. If I didn't go to church when I was a teenager even though the church was full of cute girls, you can be darned sure I thought I was right. And I still do.

So nope, I can't prove christianity (or any other religion) wrong. But I have no reason to bother trying. Because no religion can prove itself true.
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Offline Timo

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #165 on: July 26, 2014, 01:22:02 AM »
So that is 2 religions that are easily proven false and people still defend them. Of course, my belief is that demons answer their prayers and keep them in the religions, but why do you guys think people still believe it even with the proof those 2 are wrong? Also, is it reasonable to believe in Christianity, considering it has never been proven wrong?


Personally, I think people just sometimes believe weird things.  To go back to an earlier example, there are a not insignificant number of Americans that believe that President Barack Obama was not actually born in Hawaii.  What's so weird about this view to me is that its proponents believe that his being born in Kenya would somehow delegitimatize his election.  But even if he had been born in Kenya, he would almost certainly still be eligable for the presidency since his mother was an American citizen.  Similarly, Senator Ted Cruz of Texas is often talked about as a potential presidential candidate despite the fact that he was born in Canada to an American mother and Cuban father.  And yet this myth persists despite the fact that it doesn't make sense on its own terms and has been readily corrected in the media.

Sometimes people believe weird things!  I feel like shouting it!  Sometimes they even hold firmly to those weird beliefs even after being corrected.  Sometimes the correction itself even strengthens their false beliefs.  For example, a recent study[1] showed that giving parents information about the fact that there is no link between autism and vaccines actually made some parents more likely to believe that such a link existed.  Studies on other topics have yielded similar results.

Again, the argument that we should somehow hold up the persistence of Christianity as evidence of its truth is absurd.  Hinduism is older than Christianity and yet Christians would presumably maintain it's false.  With that being the case, it should be obvious to the Christian that the truth of a belief is not decided on the basis of seniority.


I see what you are saying that she put in time and effort into her work, but people put lots of time and effort into things.

And if you wanted to put the time and effort in to read her book you would have a better idea of whether or not her claims are true.  If you don't feel that you have enough knowledge to really test her claims then you can always read reviews of the book by other scholars in her field.  If that doesn't satisfy you, you can look at her sources or read other books on the topic.

Honestly, if you were to encourage a non-believer to read the Bible before criticizing or dismissing it and they gave the sort of response that you gave, what would you think of that person?
 1. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/02/25/peds.2013-2365
Nah son...

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #166 on: July 26, 2014, 03:34:22 AM »
skeptic54768, in your own words, what does Occam's razor state?

Still waiting for an answer to this.
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #167 on: July 26, 2014, 06:50:38 AM »
How did Christianity start? I don't know. But, I do know that even when the facts are easily researched, folks still find a way to believe what they want to believe. And what they want to believe isn't always good for them. Take homeopathy, for example. Not only has it not been shown to work, but it's been shown not to work. But, people still buy that stuff.

Scientology is another perfect example. Here we have a religion that was started in modern times, has no backing evidence, and even has some things directly pointing to it being a complete con. None of that stops believers from defending it with a passion.

It does not at all seem improbable to me that ancient peoples started believing something like the resurrection.
Also, is it reasonable to believe in Christianity, considering it has never been proven wrong?

Oh but it has been though, hasn't it Skep? Remember star age proving the Earth is older than 6000 years? Proof absolute that your young Earth Christianity is wrong. But because you are deluded, you cannot accept that fact.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #168 on: July 26, 2014, 08:16:40 AM »
Now that is very true. Hubbard himself said that he made it up as a joke to make money and yet people still defend it. Excellent point. How does one differentiate a false belief from a true belief? Well, I would say the founder making a statement that it's a joke should prove it's false. We have no such statement about Christianity though. Of course, we don't have a statement from Joseph Smith either saying Mormonism is false, but Mormonism has been proven wrong by history experts who have proven Jesus never visited the Native Americans.

So that is 2 religions that are easily proven false and people still defend them. Of course, my belief is that demons answer their prayers and keep them in the religions, but why do you guys think people still believe it even with the proof those 2 are wrong? Also, is it reasonable to believe in Christianity, considering it has never been proven wrong?

The person who made up Christianity was the delusional Saul/Paul and he boasts in his letters that he does not care that the original disciples of Jesus were hostile to him changing their beliefs. So the founder of Christianity actually admits he was just making up new ideas.

History experts will also tell you that Jesus was not a Christian, but there is a bible full of fake documents and stories saying that he was a Christian, building on the false ideas of Saul/Paul.

There is the letter of Peter which says that the universe was made from water (as in genesis).

So you see everything about Christianity has been proven wrong. Your beliefs have also been proven wrong. You believe muslim propaganda videos and the book of Enoch.
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Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #169 on: July 28, 2014, 01:19:54 AM »
Skeptic, are you ever going to reply to the many replies in differet threads pointed at you? This is one of them, and if you look down the list of threads, there are a couple more last replied to by me that you should take the time to reply to.

Thanks

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #170 on: July 28, 2014, 08:12:12 AM »
skeptic54768, in your own words, what does Occam's razor state?

Still waiting for an answer to this.

He didn't answer but I think it's this...   "The first blade shaves incredibly close, the second even closer, the third, forth, fifth and sixth blades shave down to the cellular level, and the seventh blade shaves to the atomic level."

Buy Occam's Razor, for the closest shave in the universe.*

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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #171 on: July 28, 2014, 11:17:25 PM »
skeptic54768, in your own words, what does Occam's razor state?

Still waiting for an answer to this.

He didn't answer but I think it's this...   "The first blade shaves incredibly close, the second even closer, the third, forth, fifth and sixth blades shave down to the cellular level, and the seventh blade shaves to the atomic level."

Buy Occam's Razor, for the closest shave in the universe.*

*Occam's Razor is not liable for bankruptcy caused by buying the $440 replacement cartridges.

i know what it says. it says that the simplest explanation with the least amount of assumptions is probably correct. To deny the resurrection is to make tons more assumptions as to what happened with the body than to simply say "He rose."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #172 on: July 29, 2014, 12:59:37 AM »
That doesn't really make much sense.  To believe that God raised Jesus from the dead we need to assume a lot more than to assume He didn't, even in light of what evidence we find in the Gospels and the stories of the early Christians.  It requires that we assume:

1.  A god exists.  But not just any god, the god Yahweh exists.
2.  Yahweh sometimes raises people from the dead.

Whereas my explanation is that I don't believe the story in the first place and therefore don't accept that there is all that much for me to explain in the first place.  Is there any particular reason that I should trust the Gospel accounts given that they were heavily redacted, sometimes borrowed from each other, and were written decades after Jesus' death?

Am I missing something?
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Online skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #173 on: July 29, 2014, 01:37:21 AM »
That doesn't really make much sense.  To believe that God raised Jesus from the dead we need to assume a lot more than to assume He didn't, even in light of what evidence we find in the Gospels and the stories of the early Christians.  It requires that we assume:

1.  A god exists.  But not just any god, the god Yahweh exists.
2.  Yahweh sometimes raises people from the dead.

Whereas my explanation is that I don't believe the story in the first place and therefore don't accept that there is all that much for me to explain in the first place.  Is there any particular reason that I should trust the Gospel accounts given that they were heavily redacted, sometimes borrowed from each other, and were written decades after Jesus' death?

Am I missing something?

Number 1 is not an assumption. It's a conclusion based on the evidence of the resurrection.

Number 2 is also not an assumption because if you refer to number 1 you will see that it PROVES God raises the dead.

So, neither one is an assumption. So the simplest explanation is that Jesus rose.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)