Author Topic: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?  (Read 3352 times)

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2014, 11:15:38 PM »
Doesn't that fact that our calendar is based on Jesus' birth prove that he is historical and real? Why base the calendar on a fictitious entity?

How did the people before Jesus keep track of what year it was? It's not like someone was born and they said, "Date of birth: 1,500 B.C."

That's the demon church you don't like that came up with that. They used to be pretty powerful, and its been easier to stick with the earlier numbers than come up with new ones. Once we get to the star trek age, we'll start using star dates, and then you won't be able to use that argument any more.  ;D

Well, how did they keep track of dates before Jesus?

They just wrote BC on everything, silly.

This is the year 5775 in the Jewish calendar (I may be a year or so off. My memory isn't what it used to be)
The muslims say this is 1435.
The Chinese say this is 4712
If the Egyptian calendar was still used, this would be 6250.

Funny how that last calendar is older than the flood. How could that be?

Jesus was white and spoke english, right? That's why we use his birthday to start our calendar. Obviously.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2014, 11:19:32 PM »
They just wrote BC on everything, silly.

This is the year 5775 in the Jewish calendar (I may be a year or so off. My memory isn't what it used to be)
The muslims say this is 1435.
The Chinese say this is 4712
If the Egyptian calendar was still used, this would be 6250.

Funny how that last calendar is older than the flood. How could that be?

Jesus was white and spoke english, right? That's why we use his birthday to start our calendar. Obviously.

if we had an atheist calendar, what year would this be? 4.5 billion?

OK, this is a digression. Sorry. Small joke.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 11:21:21 PM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #60 on: July 17, 2014, 11:20:02 PM »

Scholars place Paul's earliest letter at 50 A.D.


I don't see how they can do that, because no Christian document is ever written at one time. We can never know if the most important part of the document was added 100 years later, for the purposes of validating a claim. There is no tracking and edit history on any Christian document; no provenance; only 'logic' of believers, who think that you can date a letter, and that there must have been eye witnesses.

"Scholars" also say that Paul was running a mystery cult, who believed that Jesus came down from heaven at Capernaum. Scholars don't amount to anything. You have your belief, and you select the scholar you want to believe.

There is no tracking data on the Pauline epistles prior to when Marcion, the heretic, had them in 135AD, and we only know this because he was criticized by later Orthodox "Chrestians", around 220AD, who could have been lying out their arses, as they misappropriated Marcionite documents.

We have archeological and documentary evidence that the earliest "Christians" called themselves Chrestians. Also, we have no documentary evidence prior to 5th century that Christians ever called themselves Christians. The mis-conversion of the secret Chi Rho code was not done until the Nicene formation of Christianity. The reason why it was so late, is that prior to this time, Chrestians obviously divided themselves into groups who did and did not respect the Jewish law and physical messiah influence. Much later, when the Jewish law group dominated, they thought they could get away with backronyming Chi Rho, to Jesus Christ, and erasing all the Jesus Chrestos history.

http://www.mountainman.com.au/essenes/chrestians%20christians.htm

This re-writing of history even occurred when the Annals of Tacitus were revealed. The Chrestus had been blotted over with Christos. In other words, the early influence on the documents was by those who had the power to maintain Chrestos, against Christos. The Jesus Christ non-gnostics won this battle very late, and combined the diverse traditions with Jewish law documents, to create Christianity. Then they erased evidence of other formative beliefs that created the documents.

Quote
Also, Jesus is said have died between 27-37 A.D. Even if we say jesus died in 33 A.D., that is only 17 years to 50 A.D. Someone who was 15 years old during jesus' crucifixion would only be 32 in 50 A.D.

All rubbish history, as far as I'm concerned.

Quote
Plenty of people would easily remember.

Yeah, they remembered that he was Jesus Chrestos, who appeared from nowhere at Capernaum.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #61 on: July 17, 2014, 11:26:50 PM »
They just wrote BC on everything, silly.

This is the year 5775 in the Jewish calendar (I may be a year or so off. My memory isn't what it used to be)
The muslims say this is 1435.
The Chinese say this is 4712
If the Egyptian calendar was still used, this would be 6250.

Funny how that last calendar is older than the flood. How could that be?

Jesus was white and spoke english, right? That's why we use his birthday to start our calendar. Obviously.

if we had an atheist calendar, what year would this be? 4.5 billion?

OK, this is a digression. Sorry. Small joke.

And actually funny. Boy, it would be a bitch to have to write July 17, 4500000000000 on our checks. Almost makes me glad we have christians making up the date.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #62 on: July 17, 2014, 11:47:04 PM »
fits into this mold  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero#Mythic_hero_archetype;

ie;  Mythic hero archetype[edit]

The "Mythic Hero Archetype" is a set of 22 common traits shared by many heroes in various cultures, myths and religions throughout history and around the world. The concept was first developed by FitzRoy Somerset, 4th Baron Raglan (Lord Raglan) in his 1936 book, The Hero, A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama. Raglan argued that the higher the score, the more likely the figure is mythical.[7] Otto Rank and Alan Dundes later elaborated on the list:

1.Mother is a royal virgin
2.Father is a king
3.Father related to mother
4.Unusual conception
5.Hero reputed to be son of god
6.Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7.Hero spirited away as a child
8.Reared by foster parents in a far country
9.No details of childhood
10.Returns or goes to future kingdom
11.Is victor over king, giant, dragon or beast
12.Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13.Becomes king
14.For a time he reigns uneventfully
15.He prescribes laws
16.Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17.Driven from throne and city
18.Meets with mysterious death
19.Often at the top of a hill
20.His children, if any, do not succeed him [i.e., does not found a dynasty]
21.His body is not buried
22.Nonetheless has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

Dundes offered the following list of top ten figures who best matched the archetype along with their scores of 22 when he appeared in the documentary The God Who Wasn't There.

1.Oedipus (22)
2.Theseus (20)
3.Jesus (19)
4.Romulus (17)
5.Hercules (17)
6.Perseus (16)
7.Zeus (15)
8.Jason (15)
9.Robin Hood (13)
10.Apollo (11)

Lord Raglan did not score Jesus as agreed with his publisher, but contemporary author Robert M. Price argues that the high score among otherwise mythical figures supports the Christ myth theory.[8]


and;

"Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed mother the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment. Still, after he left this world, he returned to meet his followers in order to convince them that he was not really dead but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him.[18]

when speaking of;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana


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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #63 on: July 18, 2014, 12:55:11 AM »
^^^Good catch.

I counted at least 13 for Muhammed. Krishna, the god who is credited with bringing the Gita (the sacred text of Hinduism) to India, has a bunch of those characteristics.  I recognize some of the west African pantheon in there. King Arthur, too.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #64 on: July 18, 2014, 01:11:57 AM »
fits into this mold  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hero#Mythic_hero_archetype;

ie;  Mythic hero archetype[edit]

The "Mythic Hero Archetype" is a set of 22 common traits shared by many heroes in various cultures, myths and religions throughout history and around the world. The concept was first developed by FitzRoy Somerset, 4th Baron Raglan (Lord Raglan) in his 1936 book, The Hero, A Study in Tradition, Myth and Drama. Raglan argued that the higher the score, the more likely the figure is mythical.[7] Otto Rank and Alan Dundes later elaborated on the list:

1.Mother is a royal virgin
2.Father is a king
3.Father related to mother
4.Unusual conception
5.Hero reputed to be son of god
6.Attempt to kill hero as an infant, often by father or maternal grandfather
7.Hero spirited away as a child
8.Reared by foster parents in a far country
9.No details of childhood
10.Returns or goes to future kingdom
11.Is victor over king, giant, dragon or beast
12.Marries a princess (often daughter of predecessor)
13.Becomes king
14.For a time he reigns uneventfully
15.He prescribes laws
16.Later loses favor with gods or his subjects
17.Driven from throne and city
18.Meets with mysterious death
19.Often at the top of a hill
20.His children, if any, do not succeed him [i.e., does not found a dynasty]
21.His body is not buried
22.Nonetheless has one or more holy sepulchers or tombs

Dundes offered the following list of top ten figures who best matched the archetype along with their scores of 22 when he appeared in the documentary The God Who Wasn't There.

1.Oedipus (22)
2.Theseus (20)
3.Jesus (19)
4.Romulus (17)
5.Hercules (17)
6.Perseus (16)
7.Zeus (15)
8.Jason (15)
9.Robin Hood (13)
10.Apollo (11)

Lord Raglan did not score Jesus as agreed with his publisher, but contemporary author Robert M. Price argues that the high score among otherwise mythical figures supports the Christ myth theory.[8]


and;

"Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed mother the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment. Still, after he left this world, he returned to meet his followers in order to convince them that he was not really dead but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him.[18]

when speaking of;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_Tyana

That never stuck around, though.
Jesus was the real deal and he stuck around for the long haul.

I am quite skeptical of much of the stuff you mentioned, hence my name.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #65 on: July 18, 2014, 01:16:25 AM »
That never stuck around, though.
Jesus was the real deal and he stuck around for the long haul.

I am quite skeptical of much of the stuff you mentioned, hence my name.

You think something becomes real, once it's fooled people, and stuck around via Catholic force, inquisitions, lies and mistranslations; until it's integrated into our psyches by fear.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #66 on: July 18, 2014, 02:07:17 AM »

Doesn't that fact that our calendar is based on Jesus' birth prove that he is historical and real? Why base the calendar on a fictitious entity?

How did the people before Jesus keep track of what year it was? It's not like someone was born and they said, "Date of birth: 1,500 B.C."

I would like to introduce you to the magic google machine, my son....

The first thing to realize is that ancient people, like in bible times, didn't keep track of days. The lived on agricultural time, and paid close attention mainly to the changing seasons and the phases of the moon. The Arabs, Chinese, Greeks all used lunar calendars.

They had festivals based on the solstices and equinoxes, or when the rains came, or the Nile flooded or whatever their seasonal changes were. It was not like they had to make an appointment with the earth to plant the wheat at 4pm on Tuesday, May 6th in the year of the leaping goat.

The Jewish calendar year started with the spring equinox, same as many pagan cultures in the northern hemisphere. Everyone celebrated the rebirth of the earth's fertility with the beginning of the new year. Easter (Estrus, or fertility) is the pagan "wild sex in the fields to remind Mother Earth what she needs to do" party made over into the boring "Christ is risen hunt for colored eggs" party. But we have kept the flowers, lambs, chicks and bunnies from the pagans.

Our modern calendar is therefore a hodgepodge of ancient pagan beliefs and fictitious entities from the Romans, the Norse, etc. Unless you think Thor (Thursday) and Odin, or Woden (Wednesday) were real people. We still have Saturday, Sunday and Monday even though few of us worship Saturn, the sun and the moon nowadays.

The seven day week comes from the ancient Babylonians. Other pagan influences are Janus, the two-faced god who looked forward and backward=January;  Mars, the god of war=March; Juno, goddess of weddings and marriage=June. 

The calendar we use in the US is called the Gregorian calendar (an improvement over the Roman Julian calendar that was really messed up because they only had months of 29 or 31 days-- they thought even numbers were unlucky) so named for demon-worshiper Pope Gregory who established it in the late 1500's.

People in Europe accepted the AD and BC time periods only sporadically--it was not like everyone looked at each other and said, "We all love Jesus! Let's start the time with the year he was born!" Some Christian regions wanted to start with the crucifixion, others with the resurrection.

It took until the 800's for 1 AD to become the accepted beginning of the "Christian era" in Catholic medieval Europe. People were not using BC until the 1400's. Protestants adopted it from the Catholics, seemingly with little fanfare, but scratched out the saints days, and some even scratched out Christmas as too pagan.[1] The Orthodox Christian folks use a different calendar. As do the Coptics and Ethiopian Christians.

As you probably know, the Mayan calendar is more accurate than the pagan-based one started by the Romans, and does not need clumsy leap years to stay on track with the sun. Hindus, Persians, Buddhists and Bahais all have different calendars. If we had been conquered and colonized by any of them, we would be using theirs instead of the Roman one.

http://www.crowl.org/lawrence/time/days.html
http://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/gregorian-calendar.html
 1. I find it interesting that Easter is far more pagan than Christmas, but is accepted by all Christians as okay to celebrate. Even the anti-holiday JW's observe it as the Passover/Lord's Evening Meal.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #67 on: July 18, 2014, 02:56:43 AM »
Well, how did they keep track of dates before Jesus?

I -1'd you - but I'm not sure whether a +1 would have been more appropriate, as you are clearly joking.  I hope.

Anyhoo.....in answer to the OP, I must just re-post this little gem.....

- - - - - - - - - -
Do you mean the Jesus who healed the sick and even raised the dead? Where the former paralysed walked again, the blind could miraculously see again, and the deaf could listen and the mute speak after the Master's gentle touch? But he did not only heal the body, he also healed the soul. They called him Saviour and Redeemer, and he healed both rich and poor, men and women, young and old, slaves and free men, friends and enemies. In one occasion a paralysed man was brough to him in his bed, and took his bed and left walking after the Saviour had touched him. What was this Saviour's name?

… Asklepios.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who was born by a mortal virgin mother and had a divine Father, and was known as the "Saviour of the world"? Before he was born his parents wandered to a bigger town, and prophets had foretold his birth and that he would be a king. This instigated a search for the infant Saviour by a leading figure who wanted to kill him. After growing up the Son of God was shown all the kingdoms of the world from a high mountain. He also walked on water and when he met his end his mother and his favorite disciple stood by him. He then tells his mother: "Do not cry, I'm going to heaven". When he dies he utter: "It is finished" and the earth trembles and darkness cover the land. Then he ascended to heaven, and his greatest achievement was to conquer death.

His name was of course...Hercules.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We all of course know the Redeemer who was no figure of pagan Greek polytheism. He was the true saviour who wanted to help and save the sinful humans, by sacrificing himself. But he was willing to do this, out of love, pity and compassion for the humans.

His name:...Prometheus.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, who was the real Son of God, born by a mortal virgin mother, and often presented as the venerated newborn infant, or depicted riding a donkey? He healed the sick and did numerous wonders, among those making fine wine from plain water. He was killed but resurrected from the dead and became immortal. The followers of this god often ate a holy meal in a kind of sacramental union with the deity to achieve immortality after their death. One of this god's finest achievements was his death, his sacrifice, which delivers the whole human kind.

The God was the very popular Dionysos.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who is the "Light of the World", the One, the God who defeated death? Born of a virgin mother, considered the first true king by the people, who rose from the grave and ascended to heaven. He defeated death, and must be considered the single true God.

Of course the Egyptian Osiris!

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, the real God often called the "Light of the world", "The good shepherd", "The lamb" and is "…the way, the truth, and the life". Identified with a cross. Who could that be?

Horus, (the son of Osiris).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original "Light of the world" was the mediator between God and man and was born on the 25th of December. Local shepherds witnessed his birth and gave him gifts. He had 12 disciples, and when his work was done on earth he gathered together to a last supper, and then ascended to heaven. At doomsday he will return to pass judgment on both the living and the dead. The righteous will go to heaven and the sinful will be killed in a giant fire. Sunday is his holy day, and this religion gave us the seven days of the week. His followers called each other "brothers" and their leaders "fathers". They practiced baptism and established a sacred meal ritual, where flesh and blood was symbolically consumed by initiates. Above earth was heaven, and below the dark, hell, with demons and the sinners.

The 'Light of the World' is of course the sungod Mithra.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wise men were led to his birth by a star, and his conception was miraculous. After his birth the ruler in the area wanted him dead and started a hunt for the child. But his parents were warned by a heavenly messenger who told them to escape over the river with the holy child. Here, he was met by shepherds. The boy grew up and did many great deeds, and was the mediator between God and man.


His name: Krishna.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Who then, was the god whose mother was told by an angel that she would give birth to a holy child destined to be a saviour? Even as a child he instructed the priests in the temple in religous matters, while his parents were looking for him. He started his religious career when he was (circa) 30 years of age, and surrounded himself with 12 disciples. One of the disciples is his favorite another is a traitor. He and his disciples abstain from wealth and travel around talking in parables and metaphors. This God called himself "Son of Man" and was referred to as "Prophet", "Master" and "Lord". He did many great wonders and healed the sick, blind could see again and deaf hear.
He also walked on water. When one of his disciples tried to do the same, he started to sink - his faith was not strong enough.

We are here obviously talking about Buddha.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This saviour cannot be mistaken for any other. He performed countless miracles on earth, miracles well attested to by bystanders. He healed the sick and the crippled, restored sight to the blind, cast out demons, and even raised the dead! His birth was of a virgin, foretold by an angel. While still a child, he exhibited extraordinary knowledge of religious scripture. He reformed the corrupt and worldly religions of his day. He was crucified, rose from the tomb and appeared to his disciples to prove to them his power over death, after which he ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of the father. He was known as "the Son of God!" His message is of love and compassion.

We give you: Apollonius of Tyana

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And there is of course the god-man, the prophet, the founder of a great monotheistic religion that still exist today. He preached that there was only one true god, and his teachings focused on the eternal fight between good and evil. The teachings include the idea of the saviour will wake the dead and pass judgment on all. The righteous ones goes to paradise and the sinful straight to a burning hell. The very word of Paradise stems from this religion. This semigod started his career in his early thirties, and had a following of disciples. As a band of monks they wandered around, preaching their religion. He was eventually killed and sent to heaven.

And he was the Persian Zarathustra.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The problem for Jesus is that all these deities are much older than him. You don't have to be very bright to see where the authors of the gospels got their "devine inspiration" when they created the Jewish version of the popular God-Man/ World-Saviour of antiquity.

*Thanks to:

http://www.bandoli.no/

- - - - - - - - - -

And that's the point.  Every single one of those tales above were believed by tens of thousands of people.  Initially just a few, probably - just like Christianity - but eventually the tales grew and spread and were believed by large numbers of people in the known world at the time.

So.....do you agree that all those people in that list above existed and did everything ascribed to them?  Or are you going to argue that it is perfectly possible for myths and untruths to grow up around the very normal human activities of a person until, in the repeated tellings, they become as gods?

And once you've decided which of those positions you intend to apply to my little list of gods and demigods, you'll then need to explain why the Jesus-myth is anything special.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #68 on: July 18, 2014, 03:50:37 AM »
What eyewitness evidence supports the idea that Jesus died and came back to life rather than just survived the crucifixion?

The bible speaks of 500 brethren who saw Jesus at once.

 of course you will say, "The author just made it up!" but, how do you know for sure he made it up? You really can't be 100% sure the author just made it up. Wouldn't that be a presupposition that the Resurrection didn't happen?

And if he just survived the crucifixion without a resurrection. They could say exactly the same thing. I want something which actually proves he came back from the dead.
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #69 on: July 18, 2014, 04:16:54 AM »
This is my best-fit attempt to explain Christianity, via Occam's Razor. Not saying it's true; just a best-fit to common beliefs.



A guy with no kingly history or academic record comes along, and preaches against Judaism. He has a different interpretation (which has been lost), and claims that the world will shortly be purified by fire, and that those who follow his interpretation will enter an earthly heaven with him.

The Jews and Romans successfully kill him, along with a bunch of other trouble makers. His followers (outraged by his death) still believe his interpretation and are anti-Jewish. However, now there is a power struggle, and various factions fight to become the leaders of the diversified church of Jesus, which spreads into regions where it can't be persecuted by Jews. This also allows more evolution, because any real eye-witnesses are far away.

The ones who hold the most authority, claim they have been sent special messages from Jesus. One group has members that claim they have actually seen Jesus, so their interpretation gains more momentum. Their claim is eventually synthesized into a bigger Pauline-style claim, that not only has Jesus been seen physically, but their head of church is also receiving messages from him.

The Pauline style authors note that the physical history of Jesus was rather limited, because he was an itinerant preacher. They capitalized on it, and wrote of a Jesus who came from the sky, and went back to the sky. In this way, he becomes even more miraculous, and born from God. This group spawns Marcionism. At this point, the epistles have already been edited, to accord with their point of view, that Jesus didn't really have an earthly existence at all.

To get a more physical Jesus, back to the Jews, the book of acts was then faked, where Paul is said to be as miraculous as their version of Jesus. This gives a flawed basis for Paul's supposed writings, but makes him endorse Jewish law, in a strained way, by using a Jewish maxim about neighbours. It also explains how he has authority, by creating his revelation on the Road to Damascus.

The book of John was then faked up, to down-revise the Jewish law interpretation of Jesus. The author fabricates a Jesus not even know about loving his neighbour. He improves his powers, by resurrecting Lazarus (a feat that went unnoticed by other authors), and makes him unaccountable to Jews and Romans, by a cloak of invisibility. He makes Jesus the "Word", and the Light, and says that you only have to believe in him.



What it boils down to, is that you can source the motivation for lying from faction fighting, and people vying to be head of each faction. Such people will do just about anything.

Here's some opinion on how faked-up Acts and Luke is.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #70 on: July 18, 2014, 05:59:14 AM »
Doesn't that fact that our calendar is based on Jesus' birth prove that he is historical and real? Why base the calendar on a fictitious entity?

We only use the christian part for the numbering, the months are based on old pagan naming system


http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/months.htm


the days of the week are too

http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/roman/daysweek.htm


Does this mean that these gods are real?
Lol, of course not they're demons...
...but this does mean the you speak the name of a demon probably on a daily basis.  :-\

I'd be careful if I were you... :-X


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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #71 on: July 18, 2014, 06:12:11 AM »
It started the same way all religions[1] did: lies and deception.

A bunch of people want power. They make up events for the foundation of a new religion. They write stuff that can't be verified or falsified at the time, related to events that (supposedly) happened a long time ago in an unreachable place. Mix some events from other religions, such as a virgin birth, reincarnation, fear of eternal punishment for something they didn't do, and so on, and voila. New religion. Next step is to get some people who will believe it by tricking them with "miracles" and others' "testimonies", as well as "prophecies" that are seemingly fulfilled, not to mention the ego stroking ("An all-powerful entity who created everything loves me above everyone else? That's amazing!"). They get more people to believe them, who get more people to believe them, and so on. Coincidences happen from time to time, like someone getting better from the common cold or finding a coin on the ground, which just serves to increase the number of followers. Over a couple thousand years, we get to nowadays: the religion is dying off.
 1. Hyperbole. I believe the very first religion was an honest, if highly misguided, attempt at understanding the Universe.
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #72 on: July 18, 2014, 06:41:55 AM »
....we get to nowadays: the religion is dying off.

Even people who say they believe it, have to alter the primitive concepts. JW thinks his god is a form of energy and not a form of human. Dominic has taken on Hinduism and calls it a new form of Christianity. It is part of the general trend. Change or become extinct. Hare Krishna Shep. Devi paribhavanti. (Gods become obsolete).
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #73 on: July 18, 2014, 07:19:39 AM »
As you guys all know, I don't really start new topics all too often, but I felt that this topic would be a fun one.

I would like the atheists to explain how they think Christianity started, especially considering something as groundbreaking as the Resurrection of Christ.
There you go assuming that Christ was crucified, which assumes there was a Christ, which assumes that he was the son of god because only god can do powerful magic and make dead people come alive.

You vastly underestimate how gullible the people of Judea were around 33AD. They sincerely believed in all sorts of magic, in witches and that the weather was the wrath of their gods.

Christianity seems to have arisen through Paul. Christianity was no more than a sect of Judaism, rather like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses are a spin-off sect of Christianity today.

You will see from your readings of Paul[1] that Paul, who had never met Christ, and has temporal lobe epilepsy, becomes a fervent convert and, when he runs out of answers he makes them up, often contradicting Christ.

As we see from the rise of the JWs and Mormons, intense proselyting gets converts regardless of how lunatic the idea behind it is.

Paul and his followers are simply arseholes, but, in the way that Al Quaida/ISIS/Hamas glory in the blood of martyrs to make their Church stronger, the suppression of Christianity serves only to create more martyrs and the movement takes off.

Eventually, the Head Man (Constantine) gets converted and obsessed and orders that everyone else gets converted so he doesn't look like an idiot.

The Conversion of Constantine is reminiscent of how the tribal god Yahweh came to be the god of a land: King Josiah had been the same way and had employed Jeremiah, a gifted orator totally devoid of morals, to enforce Jahwism on all of his people.



Quote
I want to see if the atheists' explanation makes more rational sense than the simplest explanation (Occam's razor), which is that Jesus rose from the dead.
WTF! Simple!!!??? How "simple" is it to rise from the dead??? If it is that "simple" please explain in biological and scientific terms, referencing what we know today, as to how this was done.

Or was it "Magic"?

Quote
So, how did Christianity start when people who were alive could have squashed the Resurrection myth?
Yeah, well it didn't, did it? See how it didn't catch on in Jerusalem? But it did in Asia Minor and then Rome - miles away from Jerusalem and decades after the death of Christ.

You see Skep, if you start out with false assumptions, your reasoning can take you anywhere - as it has so clearly with you.
 1. or in your case, you will not, as I doubt that you have ever bothered reading a Bible
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2014, 07:21:04 AM »
skeptic54768, in your own words, what does Occam's razor state?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:26:53 AM by One Above All »
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2014, 07:28:37 AM »
skeptic,

If you look at how the religion evolved different groups from different regions all had their own set of religious texts.  There were even genocides of these groups as the one true catholic church slowly formed.  The catholic church picked and chose stories from these groups and assembled a library of books and called them the bible.  A group of people with skin in the game chose from the religous texts available at the time.  On a smaller scale I am sure each of the traditions of these groups each probably assembled stories into their religious traditions and texts. 

With in a lifetime you could probably see quite alot of change. Jesus was probably a pretty good speaker and religous leader.  His message resonated with many of the have nots.  So I think this is a very plausible scenario.

Group A spoke of a great preacher was killed by the romans the end.  He preached the truth and was killed for it.
Group B Living in a town 100 miles away, Heard that a guy saw Jesus work a miracle
Group C living 200 miles away (that is a long distance that probably few would journey) says jesus was killed and one member says I heard that a guy I know saw him came back from the dead for a few days.
Along comes a guy from group A who says he walked with Jesus and cried at jesus's funeral and Jesus remained dead.  Someone from group C screams heratic and they kill the guy who walked with Jesus the preacher.

 

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2014, 08:21:40 AM »
Well, how did they keep track of dates before Jesus?

Suggestion:
if you look this kind of thing up for yourself, you might learn something.  Whereas if you hear it from us, you are more likely to reject true facts out of hand because 1)it comes from us, 2)during a debate, and 3)might prove one of your beliefs wrong. 

Plus, this is just lazy.
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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2014, 08:32:56 AM »
Well, how did they keep track of dates before Jesus?

I think perhaps this is the most poorly reasoned question I have seen on this website.

in the face of the fact that time measurement that has been around since the dawn of man.  It existed before jesus the only thing that changed is the name we give the unit of measurement, the duration of the unit and the reference point.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2014, 09:02:07 AM »
Christians were a blip on the radar until about 60 AD when Nero blamed them for a fire.    So for 30 years after Jesus death, barely anyone was a Christian at all.   

Paul's letters were written before that, but the gospels were written after that.  Since so much time had passed, it's possible that Jesus existed, and possible he didn't exist at all and was invented for the purposes of the church, since they could claim to have eyewitness testimony to things that nobody could disprove.

After a few centuries of persecution and being a growing underground cult... (Pagans considered them atheists and intolerant) the Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity somewhere around the year 300-320.   With the leader of a large empire converted, there was no more support of paganism and Christianity grew from a cult to a religion.

With Christianity being organized and empowered almost 300 years after Jesus, they could gather any writings they wanted.  They could have changed things, added things, "found writings" that they created... who was going to say the emperor lied or was lied to?   This is why there were writings around the time of the gospels that weren't included in the Bible.

If you consider Scientology, which came out in an era of information and modern thinking, grew to about 50,000 members, give or take, over the last few decades...   and this was a religion invented by a guy that we KNOW was a SCIENCE FICTION WRITER!   There are quotes from L Ron Hubbard to the effect of "forget being a novelist, the real money is in inventing a religion!".

Now, with the growth of the internet, Scientology has been shrinking.   It's been exposed to everyone as a cult and a sham so it's much harder for them to get recruits.   In the same way, Christianity is shrinking in the United States now that it's been exposed online as having many, many holes in it.

Let's imagine instead, that Scientology had been invented in Jesus time with some slightly different mythology to fit the time better... let's imagine that a Roman Emperor had adopted Scientology as his primary religion and used his power to gather "official" church writings into a collection.

Scientology tries to force their believers not to question it, and they attack anyone who does question it, so, this likely would have worked well as a religion of the state at that time.

So given that Christianity took decades to even start to become a blip... decades for the myth to grow.

And then didn't really become more than a cult for a few hundred years...

It doesn't seem like a good source to take as "concrete proof" that a guy died and rose from the dead, or turned water into wine, or made the blind see.

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #79 on: July 18, 2014, 10:43:54 AM »

Christianity seems to have arisen through Paul. Christianity was no more than a sect of Judaism, rather like the Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses are a spin-off sect of Christianity today...You will see from your readings of Paul[1] that Paul, who had never met Christ, and has temporal lobe epilepsy, becomes a fervent convert and, when he runs out of answers he makes them up, often contradicting Christ.

One question that recurs for me....Paul never met Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. When Jesus appeared in a vision for Paul, how did Paul know it wasn't someone just pretending to be Jesus? In the modern world, anyone who looks like George Harrison circa 1968 is said to look like Jesus. If the Devil is real and has the power to play tricks on people, how does anyone know that Paul's vision was not the Devil making himself up like George Harrison and fooling Paul?

Also, same question for anyone who claims to have a vision of Jesus. No portraits survive that were made in Jesus' lifetime (if any were even made). So there is no record, except of imaginary Jesuses created by artists. (Many early Jesus portraits show him sans beard, so we don't even know for sure he looked like George Harrison!) How do people know it's really Jesus and not the Devil or a demon playing a trick?

Offline Timo

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #80 on: July 18, 2014, 11:27:34 AM »
One question that recurs for me....Paul never met Jesus during Jesus' lifetime. When Jesus appeared in a vision for Paul, how did Paul know it wasn't someone just pretending to be Jesus? In the modern world, anyone who looks like George Harrison circa 1968 is said to look like Jesus. If the Devil is real and has the power to play tricks on people, how does anyone know that Paul's vision was not the Devil making himself up like George Harrison and fooling Paul?

It's probably the same spooky business as with the other disciples.  For example, here's Mary of Magdala's encounter:

Quote from: The LORD Thy God
But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre.  And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.  And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.[John 20:11-16]

This failure on the part of the disciples to recognize the risen Christ is repeated throughout the Gospels.  Here's another example:

Quote from: The LORD Thy God
13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. And they talked together of all these things which had happened. And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people. And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre. And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken. Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?  And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them. [Luke 24:13-33]

So Paul's experience would fit neatly with the rest of the narratives.  Paul had an experience with an entity that he soon understands to be the risen Christ, just as the people who knew him did.  Also:

Yeah, well it didn't, did it? See how it didn't catch on in Jerusalem? But it did in Asia Minor and then Rome - miles away from Jerusalem and decades after the death of Christ.

That's a great point that had never really occurred to me.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:35:49 AM by Timo »
Nah son...

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #81 on: July 18, 2014, 11:52:37 AM »
It certainly seems i have bitten off more than I can chew.

I believe I have failed.  :-\

Never in my wildest dreams did I think this thread would blow up this fast. I need some of my Christian buddies to give me a hand with this stuff.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 11:55:39 AM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #82 on: July 18, 2014, 11:58:31 AM »
WTF! Simple!!!??? How "simple" is it to rise from the dead??? If it is that "simple" please explain in biological and scientific terms, referencing what we know today, as to how this was done.

Or was it "Magic"?

I am saying it's simple because God is all-powerful. It really is kind of ridiculous to say that God can't make a dead man rise.

of course if you are thinking in purely naturalistic terms of "no God" then of course you will think it's hokum and hogwash. but, I personally try to look at the bigger picture of God being all-powerful.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Energized

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #83 on: July 18, 2014, 11:58:54 AM »
That never stuck around, though.
Jesus was the real deal and he stuck around for the long haul.

I am quite skeptical of much of the stuff you mentioned, hence my name.

It has been explained to you in page upon page, post upon post. You have been given FACTS and you have been shown LOGIC. You have been clearly shown why Jesus was nothing more than a myth, you have been shown WHY this religion was propagated, you have been educated on other religions to show that older religions all have the same characteristics.

And you have the nerve to troll such an answer and call yourself a skeptic?

Seriously, dude? Do you even know what a skeptic is? There was absolutely nothing in EH!'s post that would require such an answer (you basically said tl:dr) - his post demonstrates the similarity in myths and their characteristics.  Anfauglir also did the same.

And you still insist "Jesus was the real deal".

All right, smartass, put up or shut up. Prove Jesus. Simple as that. Start a new thread. Quit putting the onus of proof on us - we aren't the ones making the claim, YOU ARE. If you don't or can't, I personally don't plan on wasting anymore of my time on a ridiculous troll who essentially sits there with fingers in his ears and eyes closed.

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Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #84 on: July 18, 2014, 12:08:05 PM »
That never stuck around, though.
Jesus was the real deal and he stuck around for the long haul.

I am quite skeptical of much of the stuff you mentioned, hence my name.

It has been explained to you in page upon page, post upon post. You have been given FACTS and you have been shown LOGIC. You have been clearly shown why Jesus was nothing more than a myth, you have been shown WHY this religion was propagated, you have been educated on other religions to show that older religions all have the same characteristics.

And you have the nerve to troll such an answer and call yourself a skeptic?

Seriously, dude? Do you even know what a skeptic is? There was absolutely nothing in EH!'s post that would require such an answer (you basically said tl:dr) - his post demonstrates the similarity in myths and their characteristics.  Anfauglir also did the same.

And you still insist "Jesus was the real deal".

All right, smartass, put up or shut up. Prove Jesus. Simple as that. Start a new thread. Quit putting the onus of proof on us - we aren't the ones making the claim, YOU ARE. If you don't or can't, I personally don't plan on wasting anymore of my time on a ridiculous troll who essentially sits there with fingers in his ears and eyes closed.

E.

I guess I can not prove Jesus to you. What evidence would you accept, anyway? Would you have to feel his nail marks like Thomas? Is that the only thing that can possibly prove Jesus to you?

I am sorry I can not do that.  :(
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #85 on: July 18, 2014, 12:15:19 PM »
I guess I can not prove Jesus to you. What evidence would you accept, anyway? Would you have to feel his nail marks like Thomas? Is that the only thing that can possibly prove Jesus to you?

I am sorry I can not do that.  :(

You know how we've proven gravity is real? Repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unbiased, unambiguous experiments. You know how we've proven evolution is real? Repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unbiased, unambiguous experiments. You know how we've proven germs are real? Repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unbiased, unambiguous experiments. You know how we've proven electricity is real? Repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unbiased, unambiguous experiments. You know how we've proven calculators work? Repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unbiased, unambiguous experiments.
You know how you can prove Jesus? That's right: repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unbiased, unambiguous experiments.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:17:25 PM by One Above All »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Atheists, How Did Christianity Start?
« Reply #86 on: July 18, 2014, 12:17:05 PM »
A prophet is never appreciated in his own land. Not even Jesus.  Buddha roamed around looking for enlightenment-- far from home of course. Same with Rasputin, the classic itinerant holy man. Muhammed had to flee from his hometown of Mecca to Medina before Islam caught on. One of my favorite parts of this story is that Mo's beloved Uncle Talib, who raised him and protected him from his enemies, never became a Muslim himself!  :?

I can imagine him looking at his wacky preachy nephew out of the corner of his eye and shaking his head, muttering, "These kids nowadays with their highfalutin' Islam. Telling me he's ashamed of our clan's sacred statues, that they're 'idolatrous'. Whatever that means. Hell, worshiping the nature sprits was good enough for all his ancestors, but now he has to go all monotheistic on us. It's a fad, like that Christianity stuff some of the kids are smoking. It's those damn Jewish kids he's been running around with. It's a phase."[1]

So many of these holy guys have go on the epic journey away from home to gain followers. Wonder why that is? Interesting how the folks who know the prophet the best--friends, neighbors, family, local leaders-- are often the very people who don't believe the hype!

Like, how many times did Penn and Teller's relatives sit through them pulling strings of needles out of their mouths in front of guests, and catching bullets in their teeth across the dinner table before going, "Why don't you boys go out and put on shows for other people..... somewhere far away from here?"  ;D
 1. Uncle Talib died a polytheistic pagan. Muslims today say he secretly converted to Islam on his deathbed, a ret-con if I ever heard one. Can't have Mo's uncle burning in hell, now can we?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 12:18:47 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.