Author Topic: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?  (Read 1813 times)

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Offline Energized

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #87 on: July 29, 2014, 09:54:09 AM »
You guys are simply just not understanding.

God sees everything (past, present, future) all at once. So to God, Satan is simultaneously starting armageddon and also simultaneously not starting it. But, from our viewpoint it just looks like Satan didn't make his decision yet. But, In God's eyes Satan did make the decision already.

You have to just stop looking at things as if human minds are the only way God can see things.

To be honest, I don't think you've fully understood the ramifications of your statement.

God sees everything past, present and future.

The past - prior to god creating the world, what was he looking at in the past? This is a rhetorical comment, however it begs the question of time being present prior to the creation of the universe. Indeed, what was god looking at in the past (or present at that time) before he created the universe?

Present - god sees what's going on now. Ok - no problem. According to christians, god intercedes when his believers pray. Before the universe was created, god knew he would answer your prayer on January 16, 2012 and on January 16, 2012, he did it. In reading the bible, god changes his mind. Did he know he would change his mind when Moses convinced him not to wipe out the Israelites in Exodus 32:14? Was he aware he would in the past or was it just a glitch in the Matrix?

Future - this is where it gets fun and this is where you need to wrap your brain around your statement.

Prior to the flood, god knew what the outcome would be. The world would still be going to hell. He knew the flood wouldn't accomplish his goal of ridding the world of evil so what was the point of doing it? Moreover, it would appear god couldn't see into the future because he expressed regret. Why?

God knew that Onan was going to "spill his seed" on the ground in Genesis and carried through with his execution.

God knew that Amanda Berry was going to kidnapped as a child and repeatedly abused and raped but did nothing.

God knew that tribes in the Amazon who have never had contact with the outside world were going to die without knowing him and be sent to hell.

God (in the present) knows that millions of children (in the future) will continue to die from malnutrition, poor medical health, abusive parents, etc. He knows that we will be watching our TVs at night and he knows we will see countless images of kids crying because they're sick, or their parents are dead and they live in slums. He knows that people will donate money to these organizations (mainly christian) and he knows that some high ranking christian within that organization will steal the money. He knows this will all occur and will do NOTHING to change that outcome... because he can't or won't?

Are you suggesting that god *can't* step in and change the outcome? Are you suggesting that god has limits in his power? Or are you suggesting god is following some sort of script?

Think about what god sees in the future and put yourself in his place: imagine you as a parent. Before your partner became pregnant, let's say you saw into the future and saw that your offspring was going to end up a disease riddled whore, living off of welfare and having kids they abused.

Would you still try to have that kid? If yes, you're a monster.

If no, then you're a lot more compassionate than the god you worship. WORSHIP! As though it's benevolent!  &)

Again - the bible is written and the prophesy is there for the devil to read RIGHT NOW in the present. You're basically saying that now (in the present) the devil *can't* stop what he is doing even though he knows the outcome? If yes, then why not?

Skeptic, did you ever read the Choose Your Own Adventure books when you were a kid? All of the stories were written and the outcomes were determined but it was up to you to decide what path you would follow based on your choices while reading the stories. Why can't the devil do the same?

Finally, maybe we aren't getting your explanation because you aren't explaining it right. Try again.

E.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 11:25:54 AM by Energized »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #88 on: July 29, 2014, 01:19:56 PM »
The question of whether Satan and demons have free will is interesting. If they have free will, they could choose to be good. But that would mess up the prophecies and god's plan, wouldn't it? So they cannot choose to be good. But they still have free will?

The scriptures never outright say it but there is good scriptural reasons to believe Satan and the demons have committed the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of holy spirit.  That being the case, Jehovah will never grant them repentence, meaning they will never repent.  I think he would actually have to take away their free will to get them to repent.

Quote
Same thing with human beings. If everyone became JW's as Jst would probably prefer, what would happen? Would there be no Armageddon? Would Jehovah have to do something different? Would the prophecies become lies? It seems as if part of Jehovah's plan would have to be sure that everyone does not become a JW.

Theoretically no there wouldn't be.  But realistically that's not going to ever happen.  Even if everyone thought we were 100% correct, not everyone would choose to become one of us.  Some people just don't want God, whether or not he exists is irrelevant to these.  Some people will choose evil simply because they prefer it.  Violence, for example, is not limited to religious or unreligous people.  Some people do violence just because that's what they want to do.  They don't care if there's a God that says not to, just like they don't care if there's a government that says not to. 

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline epidemic

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #89 on: July 29, 2014, 02:06:31 PM »
Theoretically no there wouldn't be.  But realistically that's not going to ever happen.  Even if everyone thought we were 100% correct, not everyone would choose to become one of us.  Some people just don't want God, whether or not he exists is irrelevant to these.  Some people will choose evil simply because they prefer it.  Violence, for example, is not limited to religious or unreligous people.  Some people do violence just because that's what they want to do.  They don't care if there's a God that says not to, just like they don't care if there's a government that says not to.


Ahh You me psychopaths and sociopaths.  Great punished because god gives you a broken brain.

1) Kids god allowed satan to have his way with turn on god and they get punished.
2) People with chemical imbalances get punished.
3) Kids god forced to be born and raised into families with broken abusive parents.
4) ...

I am all for earthly punishment of people because we are human and have limited patients and are not all benevolent.  I am all for us exacting the ultimate punishments.

However, hell is not a punishment I would inflict on child rapists or even Hitler.  Not even I am that cold.  Especially if I had the ability to nip the problem in the bud and failed to.

I can't imagine being a benevolent god who loves his children, wittnessing Satan having his way with a child or watching some clown (John Wayne Gacy) have his way with kids. 

I could not and would not stand by and watch Hitlers rise to power.  This rediculous claim that he wants free will ignores the free will robbed of dozens of millions of victims.

by allowing Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, ... Countless millions had their free will stolen from them.  Many of them probably lost faith in god so they also get a door prize of going to hell for being victimized.  Imagine if god had stepped in during Hitler's formative years and tweaked his childhood a little.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 02:08:27 PM by epidemic »

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #90 on: July 29, 2014, 02:34:37 PM »
Ahh You me psychopaths and sociopaths.  Great punished because god gives you a broken brain.

No, I don't mean those either.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline epidemic

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #91 on: July 29, 2014, 03:07:15 PM »
Ahh You me psychopaths and sociopaths.  Great punished because god gives you a broken brain.

No, I don't mean those either.

The point is that even bad people generally have a reason for being bad, it boils down to broken brains, chemical imbalances, bad bad parents, trauma...  There are very few bad people who for no apparent reason are bad.  Hitler most certainly had some sort of mental disorder, not necessarily one that would hold up in court.  But you don't just grow up wanting to kill an entire race of people with out some reason.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #92 on: July 29, 2014, 06:30:10 PM »
It's funny when you. Look at it from the outside. When Skeptic prayed to God to save the dog,God had intervener status and saved the dog to show sceptic he is real,but when the alter boy prays to God to stop the priest from raping or molesting him,God revokes his intervener status because it will disrupt free will.
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Offline Energized

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #93 on: July 29, 2014, 08:18:45 PM »
Agreed.  I have never witnessed a religion more self centered than those that revolve around the bible god.

Skeptic: why do you feel god thinks you're more important than the altar boy being raped?

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'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
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Perhaps it is time to die?'

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Offline dloubet

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #94 on: July 30, 2014, 04:11:21 AM »
You guys are simply just not understanding.

God sees everything (past, present, future) all at once. So to God, Satan is simultaneously starting armageddon and also simultaneously not starting it. But, from our viewpoint it just looks like Satan didn't make his decision yet. But, In God's eyes Satan did make the decision already.

You have to just stop looking at things as if human minds are the only way God can see things.

Look at it this way: Let's accept everything you just said. Now add in the supposed fact that the god created everything. If time plays out for the god as you seem to suggest, how is it that the god cannot be said to have deliberately created everything that Satan does, simultaneously with creating Satan itself? Your description above does not suggest that Satan can be separated from Satan's actions. Your description above suggests that if the god created Satan, it would have to simultaneously create everything that Satan does.

Which is what I've been saying.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 04:13:50 AM by dloubet »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #95 on: July 30, 2014, 08:19:43 AM »
Skeptic: why do you feel god thinks you're more important than the altar boy being raped?

[xian rationalization]

He doesn't.  You are making a categorical error comparing the importance of spiritual issues with material ones.  god was giving skep faith.  Faith gave him the ability to embrace jesus H christ, thus saving him for eternity.  The altar boys, being altar boys, were obviously already well on their way to salvation.

What the altar boys went through was Of The World, and temporary.  Intervening on their behalf would not have really mattered because it would only have spared them a little discomfort in this world.  And their awful experience could be viewed as a test by god.  If they could forgive the priests, then it would strengthen their faith in jesus H and make them more christlike, preparing them for the next life.

What the altar boys went through is only significant if you have a materialistic view of the world.[1]  In that case, what happens in life is eminently important because it is the only life we have. 

But when you believe in god, it isn't.  We have an after life that is infinitely longer and infinitely more important.  So the only thing that matters in the material life is making sure you get the eternal reward.  Everything else is meaningless.  Pretty straight forward game theory.

[/xian rationalization]

this is the logic and horrible conclusion religious belief spawns.  And if god exists, I think this is a rational way to think.  So the only difference, to me, is whether you believe a god exists.  It changes your whole approach to life.  Beliefs matter.


 1. well, it could be significant for the priests if they do not repent and seek forgiveness from JHC.  But if they do, all is right in the world...
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #96 on: July 30, 2014, 09:24:34 AM »
Screwtape,screwtape,screwtape.....the example was to show an answered prayer,to show God was there.  Now what do you think would be more important to God that the alter boy keeps his faith,I doubt getting raped by a priest and praying for God to stop it would keep my faith in God,but hey that's me. God seems more interested in gaining a follower by answering Skeptics prayer and "saving" a dog that just died later anyways.

 BAM,now instead of a quiet alter boy keeping his faith in God,he(god) has a loudmouthed,crass unapologetic blind keeper of the faith. Skeptic is often un-factual and incorrect in his assertions,but hey he is loud and proud.

 If I were God I know which one I would save,and as much as I love dogs it's the alter boy every time for me.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #97 on: July 30, 2014, 11:01:20 AM »
Now what do you think would be more important to God...

[xr]

How should I know?  Why would I presume to know the mind of god?  And why would you?  It is said god does not burden us with problems we cannot bear.  Perhaps god knew the altar boys' faith would not be lost?  Like Job or Abraham?  Or perhaps god did answer the prayers in some cases.
 
You have to ask, what would answered prayers look like?  Sure, they could look like guilty priests spontaneously combusting.  But that is not what they must be.  It could instead be more subtle.  It could be a priest retiring.  Or a bishop removing the priest.  Or the priest being arrested.  Or the making public of the entire scandal could be the answered prayer?

[/xr]

I doubt getting raped by a priest and praying for God to stop it would keep my faith in God,but hey that's me.

[xr]

Yes, that is you.  And you should only speak for yourself.  Speaking for others, especially god, is presumptuous.

In writing, the saying is "write what you know".  It is a problem for a writer to have as a character The World's Smartest Man.  Because unless the writer is The World's Smartest Man, he has no idea what TWSM would do. 

You have the same problem when saying "god would do this or that".  You are not god.  It is unlikely you would be able to predict what god would do in a given situation.

[/xr]

God seems more interested in gaining a follower by answering Skeptics prayer and "saving" a dog that just died later anyways.

[xr]

Again, you are assuming you know something god did not.  Maybe skeptic just needed it more?  Maybe without god's intervention skeptic would have been a homocidal maniac, killing hundreds?  You have no idea what might have been otherwise.

[/xr]

BAM,now instead of a quiet alter boy keeping his faith in God,he(god) has a loudmouthed,crass unapologetic blind keeper of the faith. Skeptic is often un-factual and incorrect in his assertions,but hey he is loud and proud.

[xr]

imagine how bad he might be without the moderating power of jesus?

[/xr]


If I were God I know which one I would save,and as much as I love dogs it's the alter boy every time for me.

[xr]

yes, well, fortunately for all of us, you are not god.

[/xr]

seriously, your argument has some holes in it.
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #98 on: July 30, 2014, 01:25:17 PM »
The way I see it there are two possibilities:

1. Lucifer knew that there was no hope for victory before he rebelled, but since he has no free will and is an automaton, he carried out these actions. However, he carried out these actions at the behest of YHWH. For if the creator is omnipotent, nothing happens unless it allows it to happen. humans, demons, angels, we're all just actors in a play. Or rather, a huge wrestling match between jesus and lucifer at armageddon where the outcome is already a foregone conclusion: jesus heavyweight champion of the world!

2. The future is not set in stone, and Lucifer decided to rebel because he'd had enough of YHWH's bullshit. YHWH, panicking, decided to write a bunch of propaganda claiming to have everything under control. YHWH sends his kid down to earth, but Lucifer convinces the romans to nail him to a tree. YHWH panicking again, retcons this and claims that was the plan all along, and now he's got Lucifer trapped right where he wants him. Any moment now, the rapture will happen, and the demons will finally be defeated at armageddon. However, Lucifer has continued to corrupt the world and recruit more and more atheists to his cause.  This would be akin to the diablo universe, where demons and angels are in a never ending conflict, and humanity can tip the scales in one direction or the other.

Those are both fine ideas,   but they do not answer the basic question I posed.  Why are demons afraid to mess with a book but not afraid to oppose god.   Skeptic indicated in another thread that the demons were afraid of god when asked why satan/demons don't mess with the bible.

I have a problem with that idea.  logically you can only a couple of ways with that logic.
...1) Demons are afraid of messing with the bible but it is ok to mess with people.
...2) If demons are afraid of god and temper their behavior due to this fear, then they would tend to try and be good.

If it is option 1 then god cares more about the book than people.
If option 2 is correct demons would be trying to get back into gods good graces.

1. Can you clarify what you mean by messing with the bible. What exactly do you mean? This is the first time I ever heard of demons being afraid to "mess with the bible", in any kind of theological literature or even any kind of pop culture reference.
2. Setting aside the whole mess with the bible thing for a second, and just looking at why demons are afraid but still mess with human beings, think again in terms of an RPG. Low level undead can be turned by clerics of good alignment. However, higher level undead require can only be turned by the highest level clerics. So carrying over the D&D analogy. Demons can haunt/possess humans in areas where there aren't many clerics/paladins around. A level 10 demon might get pwned by holy water, but demogorgon would only become enraged. So of course low level demons would not want to piss off high level angels, and the reverse holds true as well. But you can see even in the bible, lucifer isn't afraid of YHWH, he kicks it with him in the book of job, and tempts jesus in the gospels. This either means they are of equal power level, or he is merely a puppet.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #99 on: July 30, 2014, 01:57:09 PM »
Ahh You me psychopaths and sociopaths.  Great punished because god gives you a broken brain.

No, I don't mean those either.

The point is that even bad people generally have a reason for being bad, it boils down to broken brains, chemical imbalances, bad bad parents, trauma...  There are very few bad people who for no apparent reason are bad.  Hitler most certainly had some sort of mental disorder, not necessarily one that would hold up in court.  But you don't just grow up wanting to kill an entire race of people with out some reason.

You mean they have an excuse for being bad.  They do not have a reason.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Energized

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #100 on: July 30, 2014, 02:10:33 PM »
So the devil doesn't have a reason? Just an excuse?

What could it be?

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #101 on: July 30, 2014, 02:12:30 PM »
1. Can you clarify what you mean by messing with the bible. What exactly do you mean? This is the first time I ever heard of demons being afraid to "mess with the bible", in any kind of theological literature or even any kind of pop culture reference.
2. Setting aside the whole mess with the bible thing for a second, and just looking at why demons are afraid but still mess with human beings, think again in terms of an RPG. Low level undead can be turned by clerics of good alignment. However, higher level undead require can only be turned by the highest level clerics. So carrying over the D&D analogy. Demons can haunt/possess humans in areas where there aren't many clerics/paladins around. A level 10 demon might get pwned by holy water, but demogorgon would only become enraged. So of course low level demons would not want to piss off high level angels, and the reverse holds true as well. But you can see even in the bible, lucifer isn't afraid of YHWH, he kicks it with him in the book of job, and tempts jesus in the gospels. This either means they are of equal power level, or he is merely a puppet.

I am sorry I can not find the original reference where someone had indicated that demons feared taking action against the bible.  I read that spawned this thread and then promptly forgot where the source was.:(

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #102 on: July 30, 2014, 03:07:26 PM »
So screwtape, your excuse for saving Skeptic over the alter boy is that Skep might become a killer........ what about Stalin, Hitler and all the other murders? Your argument has holes also
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #103 on: July 30, 2014, 03:11:16 PM »
Or should I say your excuses have holes
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #104 on: July 30, 2014, 03:41:29 PM »
Side note for fishjie: you a stone cold nerd, dude. :-*
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #105 on: July 30, 2014, 04:05:58 PM »
Ahh You me psychopaths and sociopaths.  Great punished because god gives you a broken brain.

No, I don't mean those either.

The point is that even bad people generally have a reason for being bad, it boils down to broken brains, chemical imbalances, bad bad parents, trauma...  There are very few bad people who for no apparent reason are bad.  Hitler most certainly had some sort of mental disorder, not necessarily one that would hold up in court.  But you don't just grow up wanting to kill an entire race of people with out some reason.

You mean they have an excuse for being bad.  They do not have a reason.

If a person has brain damage and does not know that what they are doing is bad or even harmful, is that a reason or an excuse? What if they are convinced that what they are doing is actually good, because it is what god wants them to do?

I would argue that someone who, due to a chemical screw up in their brain, hears a voice that they think is god telling them to kill people, has a reason, not an excuse. Because they are not in control of their brain chemicals.

I do not struggle constantly against the impulse to kill people. I do not have a voice in my head saying it is god, screaming at me to kill people who are loathsome sinners. So, I do not kill people, and the person with the screaming voice does.

Am I just a better person or am I genetically lucky that my brain chemicals are not as messed up?

I know that there are some people who want the world to be simple, with good people who choose, every minute, to do right, and bad people who choose at some point to do wrong. Then we can feel justified in punishing (or having god punish) the wicked. If everyone has an equal chance to be good or bad, and it is all a choice, of course that makes sense.

But the more we learn about the brain, the less it appears to be the case. Maybe someday we will have a medical test to see who has messed up brain chemistry. We might be able to develop treatments so that potential murderers and rapists don't have the impulse to do that sh!t anymore.

If you rely on the doctrine of original sin, think that bad people are choosing to do wrong, believe that some people are inherently evil, or that demon possession causes people to misbehave, what will you do when taking a pill cures someone of wanting to commit crimes?

We have had several otherwise nice sounding, normal seeming Christian people right here on this site tell us that, if god told them to kill their families, and they were 100% sure that it was indeed god, they would kill their families. Like Abraham and the other folks in the bible, you obey god, no matter what. So, are people who think god is telling them to kill evil, wicked, bad or sinful?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #106 on: July 30, 2014, 04:13:56 PM »
So screwtape, your excuse for saving Skeptic over the alter boy is that Skep might become a killer........ what about Stalin, Hitler and all the other murders? Your argument has holes also

free will. 

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Offline fishjie

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #107 on: July 30, 2014, 04:22:13 PM »
1. Can you clarify what you mean by messing with the bible. What exactly do you mean? This is the first time I ever heard of demons being afraid to "mess with the bible", in any kind of theological literature or even any kind of pop culture reference.
2. Setting aside the whole mess with the bible thing for a second, and just looking at why demons are afraid but still mess with human beings, think again in terms of an RPG. Low level undead can be turned by clerics of good alignment. However, higher level undead require can only be turned by the highest level clerics. So carrying over the D&D analogy. Demons can haunt/possess humans in areas where there aren't many clerics/paladins around. A level 10 demon might get pwned by holy water, but demogorgon would only become enraged. So of course low level demons would not want to piss off high level angels, and the reverse holds true as well. But you can see even in the bible, lucifer isn't afraid of YHWH, he kicks it with him in the book of job, and tempts jesus in the gospels. This either means they are of equal power level, or he is merely a puppet.

I am sorry I can not find the original reference where someone had indicated that demons feared taking action against the bible.  I read that spawned this thread and then promptly forgot where the source was.:(

I tried googling and am getting back a bunch of spiritual warfare websites for the lulz. I haven't heard that they are afraid of the bible before, and I've been to multiple churches over a span of almost two decades. It doesn't make much sense. Demons have been around forever, and the bible is a disparate collection of writings that was only put together a few centuries ago. Why would they have any more power now that a council decided to combine them into one book?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #108 on: July 30, 2014, 06:08:05 PM »
So screwtape, your excuse for saving Skeptic over the alter boy is that Skep might become a killer........ what about Stalin, Hitler and all the other murders? Your argument has holes also

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Offline Jag

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #109 on: July 30, 2014, 08:52:35 PM »
Agreed.  I have never witnessed a religion more self centered than those that revolve around the bible god.

Skeptic: why do you feel god thinks you're more important than the altar boy being raped?

E.

For that matter, has anyone seen  "The Magdalene Sisters", or read any of the almost countless blogs written by women who have left an abusive past, and the religion that encouraged it, behind.[1]? Plenty of women have been abused, sexually and otherwise, by clergy as well, and apparently they weren't very important either.
 1. many, many more examples, don't want to go too far off topic.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #110 on: July 31, 2014, 05:41:32 AM »
The scriptures never outright say it but there is good scriptural reasons to believe Satan and the demons have committed the unforgivable sin, which is blasphemy of holy spirit.
…and as there is no mention of this, there is equally good reason to think this did not happen and that you are simply rationalising a story about magical beings that has been entertaining children for generations. 

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That being the case, Jehovah will….
But we don’t know that is the case, do we?

I could make up a story in which God steals Satan’s car and gets it resprayed and then denies He did it and won’t give it back, it is just as likely.

The point is that God needs Satan. The Bible is some sort of adventure story. All heroes become heroes by defeating the individual acts of the enemy.

Batman need the Joker -> Joker does something bad: Batman makes everything better.
Superman need Lex Luthor -> Lex Luthor does something bad: Superman makes everything better.
Harry Potter needs Voldemort -> Voldemort does something bad: Harry Potter makes everything better.
God needs Satan -> Satan does something bad: God makes everything better.

What happens if the enemy is defeated? Our hero is out of a job!

In WWII, the Allies were the heros and the Axis Powers the enemy. Whilst the war was in progress, the Allies fought bravely for all of us. But once the Axis Powers were defeated, the Allies became ordinary; there were no more exciting deeds of heroism, strategy and bravery.

So, to keep the story going, the enemy must not be defeated. This is the oldest script in history and is common to all civilisations, the Egyptians had it, the Chinese had it, the Norsemen had it, the Native Americans had it – we have it today in millions of books.

You listen to or read the story and you identify with the hero, his bravery, his wisdom, his selflessness, etc.

So, in the epic story, God cannot destroy Satan, otherwise God is ordinary and God is not a hero: there are no more troubles for God to sort out.



Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #111 on: July 31, 2014, 07:52:42 AM »
I could make up a story in which God steals Satan’s car and gets it resprayed and then denies He did it and won’t give it back, it is just as likely.

Yeah, but there has been a lot of fake scripture written between the original fakes, and the time of the Jesus fakery, which says otherwise.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #112 on: July 31, 2014, 12:04:54 PM »
So true. Whenever we ask someone why god allows the devil or demons or wicked people to run loose doing bad stuff, all we get is lame excuses.

God only acts through human beings nowadays. Well, he's not being very effectual at that, is he? Satan is apparently acting through human beings as well in this big Thunderdome called earth, and is pretty good at what he does. As Jst points out, lots of things still suck wads. This should not be, especially considering there is this supposedly all-powerful loving being hanging around. Besides, if we humans have to do all the work anyway, what do we need god for? Seriously, can anyone tell me?

It's not time for god to act yet, he has to wait. For what? To get really pumped? C'mon, god, baby, you can do it! (Cue Rocky theme music.)

Like god is an elderly Dirty Harry-- slooooowly getting dressed, now almost ready, he's looking for his glasses, now he's shakily loading his gun, oops dropped the bullets, now finally, he's lining up the bad guy in his gun sight, wait, wait, almost time. Meanwhile the bad guy is raping, killing and robbing his little heart out.

In the case of the earth, the bad guy has been at it for thousands of years. No sign of intervention from god. When things get better, it is because we humans have gotten our act in gear and done something about disease or poverty or pollution or inequality. Oh excuse me, I mean god occasionally does act through people, sometimes, here and there, but not so's you'd notice him. Maybe he's shy.

I know that time means nothing to god, but we can only understand things in human terms. And since god is "outside of time" why does he need to wait for anything anyway? Is he content to look ahead in time, see Satan doing even more bad stuff to more people, and wait? WTF is that about?

God is still getting his pants on and looking around for his glasses--he'll get to things when he gets to them. God as lovable ol' Uncle Billy. Again, I see nothing here worthy of worship, or even grudging respect. God should stick to his gardening.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #113 on: August 01, 2014, 03:08:59 PM »
Ahh You me psychopaths and sociopaths.  Great punished because god gives you a broken brain.

No, I don't mean those either.

The point is that even bad people generally have a reason for being bad, it boils down to broken brains, chemical imbalances, bad bad parents, trauma...  There are very few bad people who for no apparent reason are bad.  Hitler most certainly had some sort of mental disorder, not necessarily one that would hold up in court.  But you don't just grow up wanting to kill an entire race of people with out some reason.

You mean they have an excuse for being bad.  They do not have a reason.

If a person has brain damage and does not know that what they are doing is bad or even harmful, is that a reason or an excuse? What if they are convinced that what they are doing is actually good, because it is what god wants them to do?

I would argue that someone who, due to a chemical screw up in their brain, hears a voice that they think is god telling them to kill people, has a reason, not an excuse. Because they are not in control of their brain chemicals.

I do not struggle constantly against the impulse to kill people. I do not have a voice in my head saying it is god, screaming at me to kill people who are loathsome sinners. So, I do not kill people, and the person with the screaming voice does.

Am I just a better person or am I genetically lucky that my brain chemicals are not as messed up?

I know that there are some people who want the world to be simple, with good people who choose, every minute, to do right, and bad people who choose at some point to do wrong. Then we can feel justified in punishing (or having god punish) the wicked. If everyone has an equal chance to be good or bad, and it is all a choice, of course that makes sense.

But the more we learn about the brain, the less it appears to be the case. Maybe someday we will have a medical test to see who has messed up brain chemistry. We might be able to develop treatments so that potential murderers and rapists don't have the impulse to do that sh!t anymore.

Again, I am not talking about the mentally ill.  However, not all socipaths are violent.  Your average spouse abuser is not a psychopath nor a sociopath, but they are violent.  Quit thinking in extremes.  I'm not talking about extremes.  Most violent people will at least try to tailor their behavior around the law.  They are not just maniacs with no regard for life and limp.  What about people that start wars?  Are they all psychopaths?
 
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If you rely on the doctrine of original sin, think that bad people are choosing to do wrong, believe that some people are inherently evil, or that demon possession causes people to misbehave, what will you do when taking a pill cures someone of wanting to commit crimes?

You think a pill will cure violence?

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So, are people who think god is telling them to kill evil, wicked, bad or sinful?
[/quote]

You didn't reference any people.  You are trying to take a hypothetical answer and base it in reality.  Who did God tell to kill their families?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline screwtape

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #114 on: August 01, 2014, 03:13:07 PM »
You didn't reference any people.  You are trying to take a hypothetical answer and base it in reality.  Who did God tell to kill their families?

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #115 on: August 01, 2014, 03:16:15 PM »
…and as there is no mention of this, there is equally good reason to think this did not happen and that you are simply rationalising a story about magical beings that has been entertaining children for generations.

I didn't say there was no mention of it.  It is implied.

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I could make up a story in which God steals Satan’s car and gets it resprayed and then denies He did it and won’t give it back, it is just as likely.

No it wouldn't.  You'd have no scriptural reason to think that.

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The point is that God needs Satan.

No, he does not.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10