Author Topic: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?  (Read 2001 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6763
  • Darwins +819/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #58 on: July 25, 2014, 07:43:02 PM »
Again, my religion is not guilty of any of this.  But you lump us all together.

I am indeed lumping everyone together, rightly or wrongly. Since you are so different, how do you self-define your politics? Liberal, conservative, or more towards the middle?

Better yet, what are your views on immigration, the poor, health care, abortion and other hot-button issues? Are you markedly different that the baptists, or the catholics?

And you asked what harm the pamphlets do. You're asking the wrong person. I still hold a grudge against JW's for what they did to my cousin. When I was a kid, my favorite cousin was a sweet kid, and she was just a year or two younger than me. We had great times playing together on her parents farm. Then daddy, a methodist, suddenly got sucked in my a doorknocker and the family went full-blown JW. I never saw him laugh again, she had to start wearing long dresses and was no long allowed to play with non JW's, even relatives. Her family married her off to another JW family the day she turned 16. And she went from being a sweet, intelligent young lady into being terse, no-nonsense, serious and fun-hating female.

I know that isn't the intent, but it is the byproduct, and you'll have a hard time converting me because I've seen the dark side.

Note: I was an atheist before all of this happened. Stuff like that merely reinforced my stance against the god concept.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1913
  • Darwins +198/-7
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2014, 12:36:39 AM »
From jstwebbrowsing we get this: What you fail to realize is the things prophesied to occur are man made.

Which leads me to question how jst defines "prophecy". Since every question I've asked of jst so far has led me down a rabbit hole without actually answering anything, I'll just toss this observation out to the forum at large.

Prophecy is a prediction from God.  Predicting something doesn't mean he causes it.

Speaking of predictions..... nice place you have here on Watership Down.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline dloubet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1409
  • Darwins +83/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • Denisloubet.com
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2014, 01:19:57 AM »
From jstwebbrowsing we get this: What you fail to realize is the things prophesied to occur are man made.

Which leads me to question how jst defines "prophecy". Since every question I've asked of jst so far has led me down a rabbit hole without actually answering anything, I'll just toss this observation out to the forum at large.

Prophecy is a prediction from God.  Predicting something doesn't mean he causes it.

Good grief! It's not just a prediction! Have you not read any of this thread? The creation of something with absolute knowledge of what it will do equals the creation of what it will do.

There's no escaping that.

Creation IS the coercion.

Predictions are things that people make. Some predictions come true, some do not. But unlike a human prediction where you can act on the information to change the predicted outcome of events, the god character does something else where no amount of "free will" or effort on anyone's part has a chance of changing the prophesied outcome. The storied prophecies of the god character are fundamentally different from mere mortal predictions.
Denis Loubet

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1814
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2014, 08:48:47 PM »
My religion is strictly voluntary, politically neutral, and it is strictly non-violent.

When Christianity was powerful enough to have the ears of rulers, was it strictly voluntary, politically neutral, and strictly non-violent? Feel free to ignore burnings at the stake, inquisitions, support of fascism and anti-democracy, and crusades in your answer.

Christianity has always been voluntary.  It's men, of their own iniative, that have tried to make it mandatory.  Violence is forbidden to Christ's disciples from the scriptures.  Christ himself did not even establish any laws so these people's laws did not come from Christ.  Those that have practiced violence and oppression were not acting like Christ.  To me, Christendom, the marriage of politics and religion, is not the same as Christianity.  Christ did not join politics to religion nor instruct it to be done.  For these people, both the religious leaders and the politicians have used religion to oppress people and have gone well beyond what is written.  None of this is approved by Jehovah.  It is religious adultry and makes them part of "Babylon the Great" that commits fornication "with the kings of the earth."
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1814
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2014, 08:55:13 PM »
From jstwebbrowsing we get this: What you fail to realize is the things prophesied to occur are man made.

Which leads me to question how jst defines "prophecy". Since every question I've asked of jst so far has led me down a rabbit hole without actually answering anything, I'll just toss this observation out to the forum at large.

Prophecy is a prediction from God.  Predicting something doesn't mean he causes it.

Good grief! It's not just a prediction! Have you not read any of this thread? The creation of something with absolute knowledge of what it will do equals the creation of what it will do.

There's no escaping that.

Creation IS the coercion.

Predictions are things that people make. Some predictions come true, some do not. But unlike a human prediction where you can act on the information to change the predicted outcome of events, the god character does something else where no amount of "free will" or effort on anyone's part has a chance of changing the prophesied outcome. The storied prophecies of the god character are fundamentally different from mere mortal predictions.

No, humans don't make predictions.  They take guesses.  Jehovah sees what we do and tells us how it will turn out.  It's really nothing more than cause and effect, reaping what you sow.  I've never said he created anything with absolute knowledge of everything that would be done.  That would be the Calvanists.  I'm not a Calvanist.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1814
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2014, 09:32:44 PM »
I am indeed lumping everyone together, rightly or wrongly. Since you are so different, how do you self-define your politics? Liberal, conservative, or more towards the middle?

Better yet, what are your views on immigration, the poor, health care, abortion and other hot-button issues? Are you markedly different that the baptists, or the catholics?

I am politically neutral.  I believe abortion is wrong and therefore would not vote for it.  I also believe that forcing my views on others is wrong and therefore would not vote against it.  I abstain.  The same goes for gay marriage.  I cannot in good conscience vote for it or against it.  I certainly wouldn't myself come up with laws against it.  And while I don't agree with them I do think having laws against them are inconsistent with the constitution, at least in the U.S.  I think these are largely moral issues and I don't think that morality should be legislated through law.  It is not the scriptural way.

While I do not get involved in these other issues either, I have opinions.  But all I can really do is point out the problems.  I don't have solutions.  Health coverage sucks and has for as long as I can remember.  The only difference now is that I have to pay a tax, but if not there I would be taxed somewhere else.  One fact of life seems to be that taxes go up continually.  The poor are still the poor and where I live can earn more on welfare than with minimum wage.  However the problem is more complex that just raising minumum wage.  The problem is high prices.  The recent increase in fuel prices caused the price of everything to go up.  However, once fuel prices fell back some, prices did not fall back down but continue to rise. 

And what about immigration?  I don't see a good solution.  How can you turn away suffering people?  How can you take in people that you cannot afford?  My idea is to quite revolving everything around money.  Do you think I have any chance that will be instituted?  That would literally oppose the entire world, but it could solve a lot of problems.  The problem is the love of money.  It gets in the way of everything.


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4717
  • Darwins +107/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2014, 09:35:29 PM »
So you are a Marxist theist,you think Jesus had Marxist ideals?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1814
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #65 on: July 26, 2014, 09:48:11 PM »
So you are a Marxist theist,you think Jesus had Marxist ideals?

That is a contradiction of terms.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1698
  • Darwins +114/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2014, 05:49:00 AM »
Christianity has always been voluntary.  It's men, of their own iniative, that have tried to make it mandatory.  Violence is forbidden to Christ's disciples from the scriptures.  Christ himself did not even establish any laws so these people's laws did not come from Christ.  Those that have practiced violence and oppression were not acting like Christ.  To me, Christendom, the marriage of politics and religion, is not the same as Christianity.  Christ did not join politics to religion nor instruct it to be done. For these people, both the religious leaders and the politicians have used religion to oppress people and have gone well beyond what is written.  None of this is approved by Jehovah.  It is religious adultry and makes them part of "Babylon the Great" that commits fornication "with the kings of the earth."

This is just your fantasy. Religion was always political.

The stories and trial of Jesus were purposely faked to make him appear less of a jihadist rebel than he was. The romans clearly stated the crime of Jesus on his cross. The writers of the bible could not deny that, so they tried to say it meant something different than it did.

The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6826
  • Darwins +555/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #67 on: July 27, 2014, 06:19:23 AM »
So you are a Marxist theist,you think Jesus had Marxist ideals?

That is a contradiction of terms.
Here's a repeat, just in case you missed it:

I considered North Korea:

The Leader of North Korea has died but "lives on."
The Original Leader created your world.
The Leader of North Korea sent his son to continue his work.
Three people who all have the same idea “Juche” are united  as one.
In North Korea you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible.
In North Korea, the leader knows everything.
In North Korea, the leader made everything possible.
In North Korea, if you accept the Leader then life will be good.
North Korea thinks that only they have the answer to life.
North Korea sees itself surrounded by enemies.
North Korea sees itself as persecuted.
North Korea suffers famine and disease but these are the result of disobedience to the Leader.
North Korea wants to wipe out its enemies
North Korea has no free elections.
In North Korea you advance by utter and complete obedience to the Word of the Leader
In North Korea, people who rebel are punished or sent to prison camps.
In North Korea, people who try and escape to find another leader are executed.
In North Korea, the benefits of the Leader's Paradise are only available to members of the Party
In North Korea, you thank the leader every day for what he has done for you
In North Korea, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.

These people are in need of Christianity: what a wonderful change it will be for them.

The Leader of Christianity has died but "lives on."
The Original Leader created your world.
The Leader of Christianity sent his son to continue his work.
Three people who all have the same idea “Christianity” are united  as one.
In Christianity you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible.
In Christianity, the leader knows everything.
In Christianity, the leader made everything possible.
In Christianity, if you accept the Leader then life will be good.
Christianity thinks that only it has the answer to life.
Christianity sees itself surrounded by enemies.
Christianity sees itself as persecuted.
Christianity suffers famine and disease but these are the result of disobedience to the Leader.
Christianity wants to wipe out its enemies.
Christianity has no free elections.
In Christianity you advance by utter and complete obedience to the Word of the Leader
In Christianity, people who rebel are punished or sent to Hell.
In Christianity, people who try and escape to find another leader are executed.
In Christianity, the benefits of the Leader's Paradise are only available to members of the Church.
In Christianity, you thank the leader every day for what he has done for you
In Christianity, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.

Indeed, Marxism and Christianity are wildly different!
In Marxism, Marx urges the rich to give their wealth to the poor, ill and disadvantaged.
Whereas, in complete contrast,
in Christianity Jesus urges the rich to give their wealth to the poor, ill and disadvantaged.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2014, 06:42:51 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4717
  • Darwins +107/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #68 on: July 27, 2014, 12:34:51 PM »
So you are a Marxist theist,you think Jesus had Marxist ideals?

That is a contradiction of terms.
Welcome to the mind of a religious person. You are able to say that God is love BUT requires his followers to kill. Of course he commands killing as a way of preservation for his "chosen people". The Jews to this day use it as an excuse to kill,the Christians do as well.....and the Muslims. The same time they state their God is love,but use the same God for a reason to kill the other factions.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4717
  • Darwins +107/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #69 on: July 27, 2014, 12:35:46 PM »
So you are a Marxist theist,you think Jesus had Marxist ideals?

That is a contradiction of terms.
Here's a repeat, just in case you missed it:

I considered North Korea:

The Leader of North Korea has died but "lives on."
The Original Leader created your world.
The Leader of North Korea sent his son to continue his work.
Three people who all have the same idea “Juche” are united  as one.
In North Korea you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible.
In North Korea, the leader knows everything.
In North Korea, the leader made everything possible.
In North Korea, if you accept the Leader then life will be good.
North Korea thinks that only they have the answer to life.
North Korea sees itself surrounded by enemies.
North Korea sees itself as persecuted.
North Korea suffers famine and disease but these are the result of disobedience to the Leader.
North Korea wants to wipe out its enemies
North Korea has no free elections.
In North Korea you advance by utter and complete obedience to the Word of the Leader
In North Korea, people who rebel are punished or sent to prison camps.
In North Korea, people who try and escape to find another leader are executed.
In North Korea, the benefits of the Leader's Paradise are only available to members of the Party
In North Korea, you thank the leader every day for what he has done for you
In North Korea, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.

These people are in need of Christianity: what a wonderful change it will be for them.

The Leader of Christianity has died but "lives on."
The Original Leader created your world.
The Leader of Christianity sent his son to continue his work.
Three people who all have the same idea “Christianity” are united  as one.
In Christianity you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible.
In Christianity, the leader knows everything.
In Christianity, the leader made everything possible.
In Christianity, if you accept the Leader then life will be good.
Christianity thinks that only it has the answer to life.
Christianity sees itself surrounded by enemies.
Christianity sees itself as persecuted.
Christianity suffers famine and disease but these are the result of disobedience to the Leader.
Christianity wants to wipe out its enemies.
Christianity has no free elections.
In Christianity you advance by utter and complete obedience to the Word of the Leader
In Christianity, people who rebel are punished or sent to Hell.
In Christianity, people who try and escape to find another leader are executed.
In Christianity, the benefits of the Leader's Paradise are only available to members of the Church.
In Christianity, you thank the leader every day for what he has done for you
In Christianity, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.

Indeed, Marxism and Christianity are wildly different!
In Marxism, Marx urges the rich to give their wealth to the poor, ill and disadvantaged.
Whereas, in complete contrast,
in Christianity Jesus urges the rich to give their wealth to the poor, ill and disadvantaged.
DAMMIT THAT'S BRILLIANT
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1814
  • Darwins +33/-115
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #70 on: July 27, 2014, 06:51:25 PM »
Quote
I considered North Korea:

The Leader of North Korea has died but "lives on."
The Original Leader created your world.
The Leader of North Korea sent his son to continue his work.
Three people who all have the same idea “Juche” are united  as one.
In North Korea you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible.
In North Korea, the leader knows everything.
In North Korea, the leader made everything possible.
In North Korea, if you accept the Leader then life will be good.
North Korea thinks that only they have the answer to life.
North Korea sees itself surrounded by enemies.
North Korea sees itself as persecuted.
North Korea suffers famine and disease but these are the result of disobedience to the Leader.
North Korea wants to wipe out its enemies
North Korea has no free elections.
In North Korea you advance by utter and complete obedience to the Word of the Leader
In North Korea, people who rebel are punished or sent to prison camps.
In North Korea, people who try and escape to find another leader are executed.
In North Korea, the benefits of the Leader's Paradise are only available to members of the Party
In North Korea, you thank the leader every day for what he has done for you
In North Korea, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.

Source?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4717
  • Darwins +107/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #71 on: July 27, 2014, 09:13:51 PM »
Dodge?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Energized

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Darwins +29/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Enma Ai is GOD!
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #72 on: July 27, 2014, 09:29:41 PM »

Source?

Really?

Books: Escape from camp 14, The Aquariums of Pyongyang and Nothing to Envy.

News: Any of the myriad reports from the UN, Amnesty International and other human rights groups.

Video: The Vice Guide to North Korea, documentaries by the BBC, ABC in Australia and 60 Minutes (excerpts, whole videos found on YouTube)

Is that enough?

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2344
  • Darwins +438/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #73 on: July 27, 2014, 11:02:34 PM »
Perhaps it has something to do with the Ontological argument?
Ya know, I've thought of that.  But let's be honest here - do any theists out there have any actual dependency on the ontological argument?  I know it gets trotted out here during discussions a lot, but seriously...has anyone ever been, like, convinced by the ontological argument?  Does anyone's belief in the existence of god really hinge on the ontological argument?

So maybe they want to keep the ontological argument in their back pocket for future argumentation or something - I dunno - but you've got to do a whole lot of mental pretzel-shaping-cognitive dissonancing in order to hold onto that sad excuse of a trump card.

Quote
Or it could be the one up game (well my god is better than your god) type of situation.
And that can still be accomplished with finite-yet-completely-undefined declarations of power/capability/love.

How powerful is god?

"Well, we don't know, but we know it's more powerful than any other thingie ever in the whole multi-ultra-verse, because reasons."

Quote
The real problem though is that we're discussing an imaginary concept.
Bah!  God has not pesky limits!  He can be both real and imaginary, all at the same time, and also not at the same time.  Which was in anti-parallel time (it's a...divine concept.  Don't worry about it, it's true, trust me.) to the happenstance of god squishing a burrito too hot for him to eat with a rock too heavy for him to lift.  It's all part of the plan for Salvation Part 2: Electric Boogaloo where he sends his only son, Jesus, and his other only son, Steven, to sacrifice an innocent golden plate of underwear in order to cleanse us of our sins.  You know, the backwash from the last cleansing of our sins.  Because infinite reasons
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2831
  • Darwins +57/-453
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #74 on: July 28, 2014, 01:17:24 AM »
Ya know, I've thought of that.  But let's be honest here - do any theists out there have any actual dependency on the ontological argument?  I know it gets trotted out here during discussions a lot, but seriously...has anyone ever been, like, convinced by the ontological argument?  Does anyone's belief in the existence of god really hinge on the ontological argument?

The ontological argument is one of the best arguments for God.  I don't feel that my belief hinges on the argument. I feel the argument proves God's existence, so i have no choice but to accept it. To deny the argument is to deny logic.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Eddie Schultz

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Darwins +5/-0
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #75 on: July 28, 2014, 01:32:46 AM »
Ya know, I've thought of that.  But let's be honest here - do any theists out there have any actual dependency on the ontological argument?  I know it gets trotted out here during discussions a lot, but seriously...has anyone ever been, like, convinced by the ontological argument?  Does anyone's belief in the existence of god really hinge on the ontological argument?

The ontological argument is one of the best arguments for God.  I don't feel that my belief hinges on the argument. I feel the argument proves God's existence, so i have no choice but to accept it. To deny the argument is to deny logic.

If you're a follower of William Lane Craig's worn out arguments, yes.

I see you come in and post in a thread, but you don't address other threads that have plenty of replies to your comments. Care to check them out? There are a couple down the list that were last replied to by me, and the latest thread directed at you. Do I detect dodging on your part?

Typical, because as in one of my comments I say " People who debate the existence of "god" can never win, because Christianity is untenable"

Go ahead, defend it.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2831
  • Darwins +57/-453
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #76 on: July 28, 2014, 01:36:36 AM »
Ya know, I've thought of that.  But let's be honest here - do any theists out there have any actual dependency on the ontological argument?  I know it gets trotted out here during discussions a lot, but seriously...has anyone ever been, like, convinced by the ontological argument?  Does anyone's belief in the existence of god really hinge on the ontological argument?

The ontological argument is one of the best arguments for God.  I don't feel that my belief hinges on the argument. I feel the argument proves God's existence, so i have no choice but to accept it. To deny the argument is to deny logic.

If you're a follower of William Lane Craig's worn out arguments, yes.

I see you come in and post in a thread, but you don't address other threads that have plenty of replies to your comments. Care to check them out? There are a couple down the list that were last replied to by me, and the latest thread directed at you. Do I detect dodging on your part?

Typical, because as in one of my comments I say " People who debate the existence of "god" can never win, because Christianity is untenable"

Go ahead, defend it.

I am sorry. Please show me which questions you would like me to answer as the main priorities.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6826
  • Darwins +555/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #77 on: July 28, 2014, 07:25:57 AM »
Quote
I considered North Korea:

The Leader of North Korea has died but "lives on."
The Original Leader created your world.
The Leader of North Korea sent his son to continue his work.
Three people who all have the same idea “Juche” are united  as one.
In North Korea you are required to believe that the leader (and his offspring) are infallible.
In North Korea, the leader knows everything.
In North Korea, the leader made everything possible.
In North Korea, if you accept the Leader then life will be good.
North Korea thinks that only they have the answer to life.
North Korea sees itself surrounded by enemies.
North Korea sees itself as persecuted.
North Korea suffers famine and disease but these are the result of disobedience to the Leader.
North Korea wants to wipe out its enemies
North Korea has no free elections.
In North Korea you advance by utter and complete obedience to the Word of the Leader
In North Korea, people who rebel are punished or sent to prison camps.
In North Korea, people who try and escape to find another leader are executed.
In North Korea, the benefits of the Leader's Paradise are only available to members of the Party
In North Korea, you thank the leader every day for what he has done for you
In North Korea, if something appears to be wrong, it is because you do not understand properly.

Source?
Me. I wrote that.

What bit do you want more information on?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • Darwins +61/-14
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #78 on: July 28, 2014, 07:29:31 AM »
As far as I know Jehovah has already judged demons and fallen angels??? 

Like I said before they know they are screwed.

They fear his judgments becoming reality.

Oh so they don't mess with the bible because they fear that will piss off god and god will render judgement because then defaced a book?

But demons do not fear messing with humans on a regular daily basis, including the fall of man?  This is ok with god but mess with the pages of the bible and that is going to get you smited?

People on the otherhand can daily basis people can tweak and modify misrepresent the word of god with out fear?

How is messing with the bible the only thing that will make god pissed enough to smite demons instantly?



If demons fear god, wouldn't they tend to be on good behavior most of the time in hopes of existing longer?

Offline fishjie

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 242
  • Darwins +12/-0
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #79 on: July 28, 2014, 01:27:14 PM »
The way I see it there are two possibilities:

1. Lucifer knew that there was no hope for victory before he rebelled, but since he has no free will and is an automaton, he carried out these actions. However, he carried out these actions at the behest of YHWH. For if the creator is omnipotent, nothing happens unless it allows it to happen. humans, demons, angels, we're all just actors in a play. Or rather, a huge wrestling match between jesus and lucifer at armageddon where the outcome is already a foregone conclusion: jesus heavyweight champion of the world!

2. The future is not set in stone, and Lucifer decided to rebel because he'd had enough of YHWH's bullshit. YHWH, panicking, decided to write a bunch of propaganda claiming to have everything under control. YHWH sends his kid down to earth, but Lucifer convinces the romans to nail him to a tree. YHWH panicking again, retcons this and claims that was the plan all along, and now he's got Lucifer trapped right where he wants him. Any moment now, the rapture will happen, and the demons will finally be defeated at armageddon. However, Lucifer has continued to corrupt the world and recruit more and more atheists to his cause.  This would be akin to the diablo universe, where demons and angels are in a never ending conflict, and humanity can tip the scales in one direction or the other.


Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 921
  • Darwins +61/-14
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2014, 02:01:20 PM »
The way I see it there are two possibilities:

1. Lucifer knew that there was no hope for victory before he rebelled, but since he has no free will and is an automaton, he carried out these actions. However, he carried out these actions at the behest of YHWH. For if the creator is omnipotent, nothing happens unless it allows it to happen. humans, demons, angels, we're all just actors in a play. Or rather, a huge wrestling match between jesus and lucifer at armageddon where the outcome is already a foregone conclusion: jesus heavyweight champion of the world!

2. The future is not set in stone, and Lucifer decided to rebel because he'd had enough of YHWH's bullshit. YHWH, panicking, decided to write a bunch of propaganda claiming to have everything under control. YHWH sends his kid down to earth, but Lucifer convinces the romans to nail him to a tree. YHWH panicking again, retcons this and claims that was the plan all along, and now he's got Lucifer trapped right where he wants him. Any moment now, the rapture will happen, and the demons will finally be defeated at armageddon. However, Lucifer has continued to corrupt the world and recruit more and more atheists to his cause.  This would be akin to the diablo universe, where demons and angels are in a never ending conflict, and humanity can tip the scales in one direction or the other.

Those are both fine ideas,   but they do not answer the basic question I posed.  Why are demons afraid to mess with a book but not afraid to oppose god.   Skeptic indicated in another thread that the demons were afraid of god when asked why satan/demons don't mess with the bible.

I have a problem with that idea.  logically you can only a couple of ways with that logic.
...1) Demons are afraid of messing with the bible but it is ok to mess with people.
...2) If demons are afraid of god and temper their behavior due to this fear, then they would tend to try and be good.

If it is option 1 then god cares more about the book than people.
If option 2 is correct demons would be trying to get back into gods good graces.

Offline Energized

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 172
  • Darwins +29/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Enma Ai is GOD!
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #81 on: July 28, 2014, 03:17:39 PM »
I'm not sure I'm understanding your question here.

The devil knows the outcome because the devil himself has chosen it. You are saying that the devil should be able to choose to do something that he knows he will not choose to do even though he already made the choice to choose to do it. but, that is nonsensical.

According to the bible, the devil's demise is in the future. It hasn't occurred yet. The rapture hasn't happened yet (obviously, you, the only true believer is still here). The devil hasn't been cast into the lake of fire according to Revelation. The only thing that has occurred (according to the bible) is that the devil is here to oppose god.

Since he already chose to do it, and God is omniscient and knows he chose to do it, and it's written in Revelation what he will choose to do, then Satan can not possibly ever choose to not do it because he already made the choice to do it.

Since he already chose to do what? Rebel? You make the point yourself, based on what I highlighted in your quote. It's written in Revelation what he will choose to do - that infers that he can change his choice. Why can't he? I mean, he's read the bible - he knows the prophecy. The prophecy will only come true based on his "future" choices or making direct war with god.

Why would he choose to continue with this course of action knowing what the outcome will be? If you answer, "well, he has no choice" then the devil doesn't have free will. Why would you assume you or I also have free will? If you answer, "well, sure he can change anything", then the prophesy is meaningless and Armegeddon might never occur. What does that say about the bible then?

For example, you yourself can not choose to do something else on July 25, 2000 because that date already passed. Does that mean your free will was affected? No, it was not. So, Satan chose to do something already and he knows he will choose to do it and he isn't able to choose to not do it because the time to choose to not do it has already passed in God's eyes so the devil can only choose to do what he already knows he has chosen and can't not choose to do it because that would be like changing a past choice and you can't choose to not choose to choose a past choice.

it's very simple.

Not the way you explain it.

One thing does not necessarily lead to another.

I rebel against my parents as a teenager. I move out of their home and don't speak to them for years. This doesn't mean that 30 years later I will show up at the their door to murder them, and they kill me in the process, does it? No. I move out of their home and go on with my life.

Look - the devil, according to the bible and your own writing here on WWGHA, doesn't care for god. He hates god. He doesn't fear god. If he did, he'd be afraid to oppose god. He wants to destroy the world, he wants to torture our souls for ever, he wants us to be separated from god. He enjoys doing these things. Why in the world would he want the party to end, especially when he knows he's gonna fry in the end? Unless he has no choice...

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6951
  • Darwins +941/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #82 on: July 28, 2014, 04:15:39 PM »
The question of whether Satan and demons have free will is interesting. If they have free will, they could choose to be good. But that would mess up the prophecies and god's plan, wouldn't it? So they cannot choose to be good. But they still have free will?

Same thing with human beings. If everyone became JW's as Jst would probably prefer, what would happen? Would there be no Armageddon? Would Jehovah have to do something different? Would the prophecies become lies? It seems as if part of Jehovah's plan would have to be sure that everyone does not become a JW.[1]

Like suppose it was part of Jehovah's plan for everyone to use the internet. He makes sure that using the internet is sensible, easy, fun and rewarding for people. After a while, everyone is using the internet--some people even get addicted to using it, they like it so much. Mission accomplished.

But suppose Jehovah did not want people to use the internet. He could make it really difficult, like all the content is in Sanskrit or in tiny dense black and white type with no pictures. He could make it so that the computer keys burned your fingers. Or that the images on the screen give everyone nightmares or seizures. Or that everyone who looks at the screen immediately goes painfully blind. And the internet makes all your other appliances malfunction. After a while, nobody would use the internet. Mission accomplished.

So, from looking at the world, what does Jehovah want us to do?

1) Become a strict JW Christian, with a lot of reading, bible study, and rules that are hard to understand and beliefs that don't pass the critical thinking test. Plus the possibility of being persecuted, or at least being disliked for being strange and annoying.

2) Choose a different religion that makes more cultural sense to you. Follow it as well as you can.

3) Ignore strict religions of all kinds, try to be basically good and be kind of lax about religious rules. Live and let live.

What is the most sensible, easy, fun, and rewarding? In order to fulfill his plan of Armageddon, Jehovah has set it up so most people will do the wrong thing. People will either choose 2) or gradually drift into default mode and choose 3). Most people are thereby screwed, ensuring that Jehovah's plans and prophecies are fulfilled. Hurray!

Seems like free will is heavily influenced by the incentives Jehovah built into his operating system.
 1. Making sure that it is a very contradictory, nonsensical and unattractive religion to the vast majority of the people on the planet would be a part of Jehovah's plan.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2831
  • Darwins +57/-453
  • Gender: Male
  • Christianity is the most beautiful religion.
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #83 on: July 28, 2014, 11:42:02 PM »
You guys are simply just not understanding.

God sees everything (past, present, future) all at once. So to God, Satan is simultaneously starting armageddon and also simultaneously not starting it. But, from our viewpoint it just looks like Satan didn't make his decision yet. But, In God's eyes Satan did make the decision already.

You have to just stop looking at things as if human minds are the only way God can see things.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1698
  • Darwins +114/-12
  • Why is it so difficult to say you don't know?
    • Foxy Freedom on Doctor Who
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #84 on: July 29, 2014, 05:37:12 AM »
You guys are simply just not understanding.

God sees everything (past, present, future) all at once. So to God, Satan is simultaneously starting armageddon and also simultaneously not starting it. But, from our viewpoint it just looks like Satan didn't make his decision yet. But, In God's eyes Satan did make the decision already.

You have to just stop looking at things as if human minds are the only way God can see things.

So you know all about what your god can do? This is not a normal thing for someone to say.
The Foxy Freedom antitheist website is http://the6antitheist6guide6.blogspot.co.uk

The 2nd edition of the free ebook Devil or Delusion ? The danger of Christianity to Democracy Freedom and Science.       http://t.co/2d1KcJ9V

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12693
  • Darwins +709/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #85 on: July 29, 2014, 08:17:19 AM »
You guys are simply just not understanding.

God sees everything (past, present, future) all at once. So to God, Satan is simultaneously starting armageddon and also simultaneously not starting it. But, from our viewpoint it just looks like Satan didn't make his decision yet. But, In God's eyes Satan did make the decision already.

You have to just stop looking at things as if human minds are the only way God can see things.

So you are saying reality is like a movie to god, and we are the characters in the movie.  yes?

Didn't you try this analogy already?  It may not have been you, but someone did and it failed hard.

I think you are the one who is not understanding the implication of god being able to see into the future.

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4717
  • Darwins +107/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #86 on: July 29, 2014, 09:20:11 AM »
Skeptic when God killed humans in the flood did it require demons> God did not like the fact that humans were not paying attention to him,kills them all in a flood......now since the "flood" failed to curtail human disobedience,God needed someone else to blame,as he could not blame himself for his own failures,BAM,Satan,the new enemy of God.

 Your God could not even scare humans into behaving in a manner he sees fit(so he kills them off a few times) why would a demon fear God? God as its written and has been shown is an incompitent fuck up,or the easy explanation,non-existant
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)