Author Topic: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?  (Read 1996 times)

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Online Jag

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2014, 01:48:05 PM »
From jstwebbrowsing we get this: What you fail to realize is the things prophesied to occur are man made.

Which leads me to question how jst defines "prophecy". Since every question I've asked of jst so far has led me down a rabbit hole without actually answering anything, I'll just toss this observation out to the forum at large.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline epidemic

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #30 on: July 21, 2014, 03:02:05 PM »
I would like theist here to explain what exactly demons are afraid of?

Jehovah's judgment of them.


As far as I know Jehovah has already judged demons and fallen angels??? 

Like I said before they know they are screwed.   

Skeptic,
How would destroying a bible get them in any hotter water then they are already in? 

god is more concerned with demons hurting a paper bible than actually posession and leading people astray?

If demons were scared of god wouldn't they stop doing evil of both types hurting people and hurting books?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:07:54 PM by epidemic »

Offline Energized

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #31 on: July 21, 2014, 03:28:50 PM »
But to completely screw up God's plan, all the Satan character has to do is sit on its hands. If it doesn't create the antichrist, then armageddon does not proceed as planned.

Unless the Satan character works for the God, and will dutifully cooperate with the God's wishes.

Or maybe the Satan character is the God's slave and has no free will, and was created to hit its marks and say the lines written by the God character.

Those last two choices sort of blur the line between Satan and the God, don't they?

Excellent point, once again.

However, think of it like a movie you've seen. Before you see it, you don't know what's gonna happen, and the characters still had free will. Then, you see the movie and know what's gonna happen and nothing is gonna change that.

Well, the world is like a movie that God has seen before but we have never seen yet. So, the prophecy is just telling us humans what Satan will do later on in the end times. It's not going to change.

The difference between your explanation and the scenario by dloubet is that we don't know how the movie is going to play out. But we could ruin it for ourselves if we read the script ahead of time.

The devil has the bible and I am quite sure he knows its contents because the bible tells us that demons can quote scripture.

So the devil is familiar with the plot.

Christians tell us the devil is crafty, sneaky, presenting himself as light when he's really darkness. If he's so sneaky, and able to infiltrate our thoughts and actions through music, movies, music videos, books, the Illuminati, etc. don't you think he knows his fate?

Christians tell us so much of the bible's prophesies have played out on the world stage which is why we should believe in its divinity. If this was truly the case, the devil HAS to know he'll burn in a lake of fire with the false prophet. If everything else has come to pass, then surely he knows his goose is gonna get cooked.

Why would he start the process knowing its inevitable outcome?

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2014, 03:34:01 PM »
All I can say is that I'm glad I don't live in your little world, you know, the one where you are absofrickiin'lutely helpless, except for the part where you might get to avoid demons if you pick exactly the right version of christianity. Here we all are, helpless puppets, forced to live through this battle between your god and your satan, free will out the door. The fact that we're sinners is being irrelevant because all we can do is sit in front of our TV sets and watch the events prophesied take place. Because there is no way for them not to take place.

What you fail to realize is the things prophesied to occur are man made.  "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened -- Mt 24:22.  This situation is brought about by man, not God.  God intervenes to stop it.

Manmade? Your god predicted it, so we're dong what he's making us do, right? And satan is right there, doing his part, so apparently it is both god and satan made, and we're just the puppets. (This is assuming your claims are real, which they are not.)

You see it as humans following lust and greed and stuff, and I see the story as one where god put everything in place and hence it has to happen. Apparently one of us has a higher opinion of imaginary creatures than the other.

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You and your brethren have constructed a fantasy world, one in which you think you understand everything, know everything, can predict everything, and in which you are helpless, other than thinking that, as individuals, you can selectively choose whose ass to kiss.

If you are not helpless then end the building tensions between the U.S. and Russia.  End the wars in the Middle East.  Stop the problems in Ukraine.  Stop the violence in Africa.  Stop the development of more nuclear weapons and biological weapons.  We are not talking about predictions.  We're talking about reality.  And what are you going to do?  You're going to sit helplessly and watch.

There is certainly a measure of helplessness for all of us, but much of that helplessness comes from being subjects to the whims of various religious people who claim that their god is supportive of their various deadly causes. The religious are distorting reality so badly, and with such fervor, that it is impossible to talk sense into them. People of one god are busy flying airplanes into buildings belonging to people with other gods, people of yet another god are busy killing an imprisoned population of displaced peoples today as we speak, people of other gods are busy condemning everything from birth control to immigration to gays to businesses being open on Sunday, not from a rational perspective, but rather one that is dictated by their particular belief. This is not easy for us rational people to deal with, because believers don't consider it an opinion, but rather an imperative. Kind of hard to negotiate under those circumstances.

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Satan's so called "fear" that his time is coming is, and I'm pretty sure this is just a coincidence  , is exactly the same fear that christians have. That their own lives will actually end at death, a fear so great that they are willing to fantasize their whole lives about alternate endings just so they can make it through the day. You know, the day they've filled with so much terror and foreboding they can't enjoy it anyway.

Why do you think that?

Because I know way too many religious people who have expressed a major fear of death. And since they are also big on jesus and his dad, I tend to assume they are hoping like crazy to go to heaven after death, rather than just ceasing to exist. I've had religious people ask me how I can live with the thought that when I die, that's it. The idea clearly horrifies them. So that's why I think that. I'm pretty sure it is closer to being a universal than it is to being an anomaly.

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You're doing it wrong. Each and every one of you. And you're ruining it for the rest of us.

What am I ruining for you?

Well, there is the simple stuff. The mormon who lives near me who has 67 kids at last count. The JW's that left a watchtower in my door last week. And then there is the idiotic stuff, like politicians who think they have to vote the way jesus would vote, even when it means voting not to provide fishes and loaves to the poor. And the aforementioned war crap. It all adds up.

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If you are able to take even a smidgen of comfort from the story you just told, then you haven't a the slightest idea about what reality is. And yet you're proud of it.

The only comfort is that God will interefere and he "makes wars cease to the ends of the earth." (Ps 46:9)

I rest my case.

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And of course, with your god taking his own sweet time about dealing with the devil, he gets to use that as an excuse to threaten us with crispy critterdom if we don't kowtow to his every whim, which he has lots of time for, since he's letting satan run the planet.

What do you mean "his every whim"?  What are his "whims" for a Christian?

Whims? Like demanding worship, demanding faith, demanding obedience, threatening all kinds of crap, ignoring satan for a few centuries, etc. Along with all the new whims you guys keep finding (anti-gay, anti-women, anti-immigration, anti-anything Obama wants) and it becomes a whim controlled world real fast. There is no logic to any of it, but there sure are a lot of excuses. It gets old.

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We're born, we live, and we die.

No that is not correct.  There is going to be a resurrection of the dead because of the "whims" of the creator.

No, that is not correct. There will be only the recycling of your organic and inorganic components in to other things and other life forms. At some point in the future, a worm with a few atoms of carbon that were in you when you died will be eaten by a robin who has a few atoms of calcium that were once in you. The same will happen to me in my future. Such happenings will be common. Up until the time our planet becomes lifeless via the expansion of the sun. And then all of our little bits an pieces will meet again at the center of a black hole a bit later on.

Alice never went to Wonderland, Dorothy never went to Oz, and you'll never go to heaven. All are fictions.

Edit: Sorry, went all noob on my quotes there for a second and the post was ugly. Fixed it.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2014, 03:37:07 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2014, 06:10:37 PM »
This is truly mind-boggling stuff. My brain hurts just reading this post. I see the point you are trying to make, but I just don't agree with it.

It certainly hurts to think about it, though.

Think of it this way.  Every outcome that happens is part of gods plan.  My brain takes the inputs from what has already happened and then appears to make a decision given choices.  But since it is ordaned that I will eat pizza all the previous inputs to my mind will lead me to the one decision.  To me it appears to be free choice but I am actually pre-programmed to eat pizza.  Everything in my life up to that moment was set forth in such a way as to insure that I perform this action.

In an omnipotent, omnicient god universe from the instant of the big bang god knew I would type "this right now!".

I may have the impression that I typed it through free will but since god knew i would type it from before I was born, then I was created to fulfill this task and probably more assuming I don't explode right now
The Christians try to say the god just knows what's going to happen, but didn't coerce it directly, in an effort to keep its hands clean. Unfortunately, the god they claim to believe in (1) created the universe, (2) is omniscient, and (3) is all powerful. The combination of these three qualities means the god is necessarily directly responsible for everything that happens in the universe. It not only created the universe, but due to its omniscience and omnipotence it deliberately created everything that happens in the universe as well. The act of creation was the coercion.

If their idea of their god is true, then it wrote the script and we're just saying the lines. We are slaves to the script. No free will possible.

And this goes for demons too. Demons are just reading from the god's script, every bit as much a slave to it as we are.

I can only suppose the god is enjoying the show.
Denis Loubet

Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2014, 07:17:51 AM »
If you are not helpless then end the building tensions between the U.S. and Russia.  End the wars in the Middle East.  Stop the problems in Ukraine.  Stop the violence in Africa.  Stop the development of more nuclear weapons and biological weapons.  We are not talking about predictions.  We're talking about reality.  And what are you going to do?  You're going to sit helplessly and watch.


False Dichotomy. There is room between "helpless" and "able to change the world instantly"

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #35 on: July 24, 2014, 11:32:37 PM »
But to completely screw up God's plan, all the Satan character has to do is sit on its hands. If it doesn't create the antichrist, then armageddon does not proceed as planned.

Unless the Satan character works for the God, and will dutifully cooperate with the God's wishes.

Or maybe the Satan character is the God's slave and has no free will, and was created to hit its marks and say the lines written by the God character.

Those last two choices sort of blur the line between Satan and the God, don't they?

Excellent point, once again.

However, think of it like a movie you've seen. Before you see it, you don't know what's gonna happen, and the characters still had free will. Then, you see the movie and know what's gonna happen and nothing is gonna change that.

Well, the world is like a movie that God has seen before but we have never seen yet. So, the prophecy is just telling us humans what Satan will do later on in the end times. It's not going to change.

The difference between your explanation and the scenario by dloubet is that we don't know how the movie is going to play out. But we could ruin it for ourselves if we read the script ahead of time.

The devil has the bible and I am quite sure he knows its contents because the bible tells us that demons can quote scripture.

So the devil is familiar with the plot.

Christians tell us the devil is crafty, sneaky, presenting himself as light when he's really darkness. If he's so sneaky, and able to infiltrate our thoughts and actions through music, movies, music videos, books, the Illuminati, etc. don't you think he knows his fate?

Christians tell us so much of the bible's prophesies have played out on the world stage which is why we should believe in its divinity. If this was truly the case, the devil HAS to know he'll burn in a lake of fire with the false prophet. If everything else has come to pass, then surely he knows his goose is gonna get cooked.

Why would he start the process knowing its inevitable outcome?

E.

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question here.

The devil knows the outcome because the devil himself has chosen it. You are saying that the devil should be able to choose to do something that he knows he will not choose to do even though he already made the choice to choose to do it. but, that is nonsensical.

Since he already chose to do it, and God is omniscient and knows he chose to do it, and it's written in Revelation what he will choose to do, then Satan can not possibly ever choose to not do it because he already made the choice to do it.

For example, you yourself can not choose to do something else on July 25, 2000 because that date already passed. Does that mean your free will was affected? No, it was not. So, Satan chose to do something already and he knows he will choose to do it and he isn't able to choose to not do it because the time to choose to not do it has already passed in God's eyes so the devil can only choose to do what he already knows he has chosen and can't not choose to do it because that would be like changing a past choice and you can't choose to not choose to choose a past choice.

it's very simple.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online skeptic54768

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #36 on: July 24, 2014, 11:41:37 PM »
This is truly mind-boggling stuff. My brain hurts just reading this post. I see the point you are trying to make, but I just don't agree with it.

It certainly hurts to think about it, though.

Think of it this way.  Every outcome that happens is part of gods plan.  My brain takes the inputs from what has already happened and then appears to make a decision given choices.  But since it is ordaned that I will eat pizza all the previous inputs to my mind will lead me to the one decision.  To me it appears to be free choice but I am actually pre-programmed to eat pizza.  Everything in my life up to that moment was set forth in such a way as to insure that I perform this action.

In an omnipotent, omnicient god universe from the instant of the big bang god knew I would type "this right now!".

I may have the impression that I typed it through free will but since god knew i would type it from before I was born, then I was created to fulfill this task and probably more assuming I don't explode right now
The Christians try to say the god just knows what's going to happen, but didn't coerce it directly, in an effort to keep its hands clean. Unfortunately, the god they claim to believe in (1) created the universe, (2) is omniscient, and (3) is all powerful. The combination of these three qualities means the god is necessarily directly responsible for everything that happens in the universe. It not only created the universe, but due to its omniscience and omnipotence it deliberately created everything that happens in the universe as well. The act of creation was the coercion.

If their idea of their god is true, then it wrote the script and we're just saying the lines. We are slaves to the script. No free will possible.

And this goes for demons too. Demons are just reading from the god's script, every bit as much a slave to it as we are.

I can only suppose the god is enjoying the show.

God did not write the script. it is more like improv but God knows what they will say. Prior knowledge of a specific something does not equate to causing that specific something.

God knew what everyone will choose so if He made the choice to not create, then it would mean God was not omniscient because what He knew would happen did not happen then. How can God know what will happen and then make it not happen? That is just silly to me.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2014, 12:46:04 AM »
Skep, I think you're an article from The Onion. You act serious, you sound funny.

What's wrong with your god saying "Oh, if I did that, it would make a mess. I'd better change the scenario before I do it and not screw up every single human being on the planet by ladening him or her or it with inherited guilt."

Oh. Never mind. I have the answer. Right before changing things to keep Adam and Eve from fucking up the planet, he said "Oh wait, if I don't let them mess stuff up, Skep will never be happy. He comes first. So I need me some dirt, where did I put the dirt..."

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2014, 01:06:15 AM »
Skep, I think you're an article from The Onion. You act serious, you sound funny.

What's wrong with your god saying "Oh, if I did that, it would make a mess. I'd better change the scenario before I do it and not screw up every single human being on the planet by ladening him or her or it with inherited guilt."

Oh. Never mind. I have the answer. Right before changing things to keep Adam and Eve from fucking up the planet, he said "Oh wait, if I don't let them mess stuff up, Skep will never be happy. He comes first. So I need me some dirt, where did I put the dirt..."

How does God change a scenario created by free will? Should He take away their free will and force them to make decisions as if he has a switch on their backs set to "good?" What would the point of that be? Absolutely nothing.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #39 on: July 25, 2014, 01:48:15 AM »
Skep, I think you're an article from The Onion. You act serious, you sound funny.

What's wrong with your god saying "Oh, if I did that, it would make a mess. I'd better change the scenario before I do it and not screw up every single human being on the planet by ladening him or her or it with inherited guilt."

Oh. Never mind. I have the answer. Right before changing things to keep Adam and Eve from fucking up the planet, he said "Oh wait, if I don't let them mess stuff up, Skep will never be happy. He comes first. So I need me some dirt, where did I put the dirt..."

How does God change a scenario created by free will? Should He take away their free will and force them to make decisions as if he has a switch on their backs set to "good?" What would the point of that be? Absolutely nothing.

What I was saying is that he could have designed the scenario different before putting people in it. And he could have designed the people different, before putting them in an awkward situation. He could have given us the same free will, but also given us more talents so that we could exercise it better. Especially the new kids on the block, who could have either been better informed or less tempted.

Free will isn't restricted to only one possible way of doing it. What you're saying is that your god was forced to provide us with free will and this one specific scenario, which is somewhat contrary to what gods are all about.

Of course, I'd rather just convince you that this stuff never happened. But we're arguing the specifics of a fiction, and hence no satisfying outcome is available.
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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2014, 02:17:51 AM »
How does God change a scenario created by free will? Should He take away their free will and force them to make decisions as if he has a switch on their backs set to "good?" What would the point of that be? Absolutely nothing.

There is no such thing as free will. When you make a decision are all your choices equal or do you have preferences? The preferences you have because of your personality or experiences mean you do not have free will to choose.
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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #41 on: July 25, 2014, 02:31:34 AM »

Think of it this way.  Every outcome that happens is part of gods plan.  My brain takes the inputs from what has already happened and then appears to make a decision given choices.  But since it is ordaned that I will eat pizza all the previous inputs to my mind will lead me to the one decision.  To me it appears to be free choice but I am actually pre-programmed to eat pizza.  Everything in my life up to that moment was set forth in such a way as to insure that I perform this action.

In an omnipotent, omnicient god universe from the instant of the big bang god knew I would type "this right now!".

I may have the impression that I typed it through free will but since god knew i would type it from before I was born, then I was created to fulfill this task and probably more assuming I don't explode right now
The Christians try to say the god just knows what's going to happen, but didn't coerce it directly, in an effort to keep its hands clean. Unfortunately, the god they claim to believe in (1) created the universe, (2) is omniscient, and (3) is all powerful. The combination of these three qualities means the god is necessarily directly responsible for everything that happens in the universe. It not only created the universe, but due to its omniscience and omnipotence it deliberately created everything that happens in the universe as well. The act of creation was the coercion.

If their idea of their god is true, then it wrote the script and we're just saying the lines. We are slaves to the script. No free will possible.

And this goes for demons too. Demons are just reading from the god's script, every bit as much a slave to it as we are.

I can only suppose the god is enjoying the show.

God did not write the script. it is more like improv but God knows what they will say. Prior knowledge of a specific something does not equate to causing that specific something.

No. Prior knowledge equates to causing a specific something if you also create the thing that causes the specific something. If you create a thing, with prior knowledge of what it will do, then you have also necessarily created everything it will do.

Quote
God knew what everyone will choose so if He made the choice to not create, then it would mean God was not omniscient because what He knew would happen did not happen then. How can God know what will happen and then make it not happen? That is just silly to me.

This makes no sense. What are you trying to say.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 02:34:10 AM by dloubet »
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #42 on: July 25, 2014, 07:11:03 AM »
No. Prior knowledge equates to causing a specific something if you also create the thing that causes the specific something. If you create a thing, with prior knowledge of what it will do, then you have also necessarily created everything it will do.

Ditto, The only way to make the above statement false is to make god not Omniscient. 

A non omniscient god really makes everything work much better. 

Why did god create the universe?   Because he was bored and wanted something to do.

Why did god create angels?  Seemed interesting.

Why did god get pissed at the angels?  Because they did something he didn't design them to do and it caught him off guard.

Why did god create man?  Because the angel experiment did not turn out as expected.

Why did god give free will?  It seemed like one way to make a creature happy.

Why did god get pissed at man?  Because man did something unexpected.

Non Omnicience, Wanting to know what would happen would clear up so much.

Now of course the non omnicient god and his experiments apparently not that well thought out.  God would appear to be like a kid with a chemistry set and some knowledge but his logic and reason are somewhat impetuous.  He really has to look at his previous experiments and think about how to not make the same undesired results.


God being a Q (see Star Trek Next Generation)would make it all seem logical.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 07:18:32 AM by epidemic »

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2014, 08:40:23 AM »
God did not write the script. it is more like improv but God knows what they will say. Prior knowledge of a specific something does not equate to causing that specific something.

Knowing what will happen, on its own, does not equate to causing what will happen.  That is true.  However, being able to know what will happen - even in principle - means that "what will happen" is fixed.  It is pre-determined.  Otherwise, it could not be known for certain, not even by a god.  If the future is there to know, then nothing is free to depart from that future.

The script is written by someone or something, if the future is able to be known for certain.  Whether that someone or something is a god or not, free will is still impossible in that scenario.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2014, 09:10:49 AM »
Right. Knowing what would happen with a scenario you yourself created and set in motion does mean you are responsible for the outcome. The illusion of free will might be there, but every move has already been determined beforehand. An omniscient, omnipotent god should have the ability to "preview" various scenarios, eliminate some of the problems (such as keeping the serpent out of the garden or allowing for mistakes with minor punishment as a learning experience) and not set the whole thing in motion until the potential kinks, all of which he would be able to clearly see in advance, had been ironed out.

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2014, 09:22:07 AM »
He(god)wrote the beginning and the end,and now he is watching,who's line is it anyway,the centuries long improve that is the middle act.

 I don't know which one of you(skeptic,lukevance) is better at pulling garbage out of your backsides. It seems as you both are making it up as you go along.....at the very least it's free entertainment.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2014, 09:52:29 AM »
have any of the theists, taken on the basic question?

Especially skeptic, since you are the reason I asked the question in the first place.

Why do Demons fear god?

Why do demons not mess with the bible (skeptic???) what do they fear will happen if they do mess with the bible?

If demons did interfere with the legitimate message of the bible, what would god do differently.  (considering that all demons will be smited in the end and not now,  None of their actions seem to provoke any reaction positive or negative from god)

Offline dloubet

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2014, 04:08:08 PM »
have any of the theists, taken on the basic question?

Especially skeptic, since you are the reason I asked the question in the first place.

Why do Demons fear god?

Why do demons not mess with the bible (skeptic???) what do they fear will happen if they do mess with the bible?

If demons did interfere with the legitimate message of the bible, what would god do differently.  (considering that all demons will be smited in the end and not now,  None of their actions seem to provoke any reaction positive or negative from god)

The free will issues of omniscience plus creation mean the demons are doing exactly what the god character created them to do. It means that the prophecies are actual spoilers telling you everything that's going to happen, and there's nothing humans or demons can do about it even with spoiler knowledge.

So demons fear god because it's in the script. Like every event, thought, and deed, it's in the script. We're all in show business, with an audience of one.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2014, 04:33:34 PM »
So demons fear god because it's in the script. Like every event, thought, and deed, it's in the script. We're all in show business, with an audience of one.

Yep, and you know who should get the Oscar or Emmy or whatever for "Best Made Up", don't you?  ;D
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2014, 04:34:49 PM »
God knew what everyone will choose so if He made the choice to not create, then it would mean God was not omniscient because what He knew would happen did not happen then. How can God know what will happen and then make it not happen? That is just silly to me.

Ha!  You're basically saying "God" is not omnicient if "God" doesn't know the consequences of different actions or in-actions.  This would make "God" as much a puppet as we are.

An omnicient "God" would know what would happen prior to actually doing anything in order to make the best decision.  This is the point of omniscience.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2014, 04:36:37 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #50 on: July 25, 2014, 04:39:16 PM »
What I don't really understand is why the easiest, most effective 'out' from this little omniscience/free will contradictory gambit isn't simply embraced by the vast majority of Christians.

God is not omnipotent, but he is ultrahypermegasupercapable, above and beyond any other sentient entity in all of reality.
God is not omniscient, but he is ultrahypermegasupersmart, above and beyond any other sentient entity in all of reality.

That's it.  Problem solved.  God has a plan; god is superawesomesauce at executing/realizing plans; it is technically feasible to thwart this plan, but it would be exceptionally difficult, because god is that awesome.  So you still have your free will, and god has done a lot to account for the possibility of your f*ck ups to potentially ruin his plans, and has taken appropriate measures to ensure that the end result of this plan is realized[1].

Why isn't this just immediately accepted?  It eliminates so many of the weird logical conundrums that are part-and-parcel with an entity that can realize absolutely whatever the hell result it wants whenever the hell it wants without any cost to itself whatsoever.  Is it because the bible makes some claims to omni-whatever?  Why can't that simply be chalked up to hyperbole to hammer the point home that god is the most powerful, most smarterest, most loveydovey of them all?  Why are infinite attributes (infinattributes?) remotely important?

Seriously, why not just go with this answer:
God doesn't know what will happen in the future with certainty.  He is the wisest, most intelligent being in all of reality, but he doesn't know absolutely everything.  Being that he is the wisest, most intelligent being in all of reality, his plans are really, really awesome, and would be really, really hard for you to derail.  He's planned for a lot of contingency.

I don't really get it.
 1. For specifics on the plan, such as what the goal actually is...HEY SQUIRREL!!!!!!!
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #51 on: July 25, 2014, 04:57:15 PM »
Jdawg,

Perhaps it has something to do with the Ontological argument?

Or it could be the one up game (well my god is better than your god) type of situation.

The real problem though is that we're discussing an imaginary concept.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2014, 06:17:27 PM »
This is truly mind-boggling stuff. My brain hurts just reading this post. I see the point you are trying to make, but I just don't agree with it.

It certainly hurts to think about it, though.

Think of it this way.  Every outcome that happens is part of gods plan.  My brain takes the inputs from what has already happened and then appears to make a decision given choices.  But since it is ordaned that I will eat pizza all the previous inputs to my mind will lead me to the one decision.  To me it appears to be free choice but I am actually pre-programmed to eat pizza.  Everything in my life up to that moment was set forth in such a way as to insure that I perform this action.

In an omnipotent, omnicient god universe from the instant of the big bang god knew I would type "this right now!".

I may have the impression that I typed it through free will but since god knew i would type it from before I was born, then I was created to fulfill this task and probably more assuming I don't explode right now
The Christians try to say the god just knows what's going to happen, but didn't coerce it directly, in an effort to keep its hands clean. Unfortunately, the god they claim to believe in (1) created the universe, (2) is omniscient, and (3) is all powerful. The combination of these three qualities means the god is necessarily directly responsible for everything that happens in the universe. It not only created the universe, but due to its omniscience and omnipotence it deliberately created everything that happens in the universe as well. The act of creation was the coercion.

If their idea of their god is true, then it wrote the script and we're just saying the lines. We are slaves to the script. No free will possible.

And this goes for demons too. Demons are just reading from the god's script, every bit as much a slave to it as we are.

I can only suppose the god is enjoying the show.

God did not write the script. it is more like improv but God knows what they will say. Prior knowledge of a specific something does not equate to causing that specific something.

God knew what everyone will choose so if He made the choice to not create, then it would mean God was not omniscient because what He knew would happen did not happen then. How can God know what will happen and then make it not happen? That is just silly to me.
Skeptic there is no set end date,I know you wish it was soon,but you will be long dead,as a lot of your descendants will be.....and the world will still be hearing from theists( if there are any left) that the end times are coming soon. It's a fucking retarded game,and it hurts our intellectual and technological processes,and it will make us fall even further behind from where we should be in the future.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2014, 06:42:36 PM »
From jstwebbrowsing we get this: What you fail to realize is the things prophesied to occur are man made.

Which leads me to question how jst defines "prophecy". Since every question I've asked of jst so far has led me down a rabbit hole without actually answering anything, I'll just toss this observation out to the forum at large.

Prophecy is a prediction from God.  Predicting something doesn't mean he causes it.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2014, 06:43:39 PM »
As far as I know Jehovah has already judged demons and fallen angels??? 

Like I said before they know they are screwed.

They fear his judgments becoming reality.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2014, 07:03:59 PM »
There is certainly a measure of helplessness for all of us, but much of that helplessness comes from being subjects to the whims of various religious people who claim that their god is supportive of their various deadly causes. The religious are distorting reality so badly, and with such fervor, that it is impossible to talk sense into them. People of one god are busy flying airplanes into buildings belonging to people with other gods, people of yet another god are busy killing an imprisoned population of displaced peoples today as we speak, people of other gods are busy condemning everything from birth control to immigration to gays to businesses being open on Sunday, not from a rational perspective, but rather one that is dictated by their particular belief. This is not easy for us rational people to deal with, because believers don't consider it an opinion, but rather an imperative. Kind of hard to negotiate under those circumstances.

I agree.  Religion, politics, and commerce are what abuse the people.  You seem to limit it to religion.  I do not.  Religion has used politics and politicians have used religion to oppress people.  But when it comes to religions it's all bad is the impression I get from many athiests.  I guess we all must look alike.  My religion has done none of those things.  My religion is strictly voluntary, politically neutral, and it is stirctly non-violent.

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Because I know way too many religious people who have expressed a major fear of death. And since they are also big on jesus and his dad, I tend to assume they are hoping like crazy to go to heaven after death, rather than just ceasing to exist. I've had religious people ask me how I can live with the thought that when I die, that's it. The idea clearly horrifies them. So that's why I think that. I'm pretty sure it is closer to being a universal than it is to being an anomaly.

I don't fear death, but hope to to experience a painful one.  Even if Jehovah chooses not to resurrect me I do not fear death.  I suppose many religios people may fear being tortured forever.  I do not.  If I am not resurrected, I will never know it.

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Well, there is the simple stuff. The mormon who lives near me who has 67 kids at last count. The JW's that left a watchtower in my door last week. And then there is the idiotic stuff, like politicians who think they have to vote the way jesus would vote, even when it means voting not to provide fishes and loaves to the poor. And the aforementioned war crap. It all adds up.

So leaving a magazine ruins what?  Are you harmed in some way?  Is that the only charge you have against how we live our lives?

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I rest my case.

Yes, it is comforting to think that wars end.  You act as if this is something evil or harmful.

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Whims? Like demanding worship, demanding faith, demanding obedience, threatening all kinds of crap, ignoring satan for a few centuries, etc. Along with all the new whims you guys keep finding (anti-gay, anti-women, anti-immigration, anti-anything Obama wants) and it becomes a whim controlled world real fast. There is no logic to any of it, but there sure are a lot of excuses. It gets old.

Again, my religion is not guilty of any of this.  But you lump us all together.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #56 on: July 25, 2014, 07:04:57 PM »
If you are not helpless then end the building tensions between the U.S. and Russia.  End the wars in the Middle East.  Stop the problems in Ukraine.  Stop the violence in Africa.  Stop the development of more nuclear weapons and biological weapons.  We are not talking about predictions.  We're talking about reality.  And what are you going to do?  You're going to sit helplessly and watch.


False Dichotomy. There is room between "helpless" and "able to change the world instantly"

Yes, there has actually been thousands of years that have passed and still war rages on.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Skeptic, do satan and or demons fear god?
« Reply #57 on: July 25, 2014, 07:24:36 PM »
My religion is strictly voluntary, politically neutral, and it is strictly non-violent.

When Christianity was powerful enough to have the ears of rulers, was it strictly voluntary, politically neutral, and strictly non-violent? Feel free to ignore burnings at the stake, inquisitions, support of fascism and anti-democracy, and crusades in your answer.
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