Author Topic: Historicity of Jesus  (Read 650 times)

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Offline Energized

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2014, 02:33:33 PM »
I recall someone posting something similar to this on randi.org.

He really did his research, whereby the poster made a list of respected historical writers who were close to the Romans at the time, and in descending order of their importance, detailed how these writers should or could have mentioned Jesus but didn't. He also went into the controversy surrounding the Josephus writings where the little blurb about Jesus was shown to have been inserted at a later date.

A lot of christians on the randi.org thread mentioned how history was an "oral" tradition at the time (which, in and of itself, shows how untrustworthy that is) and that Jesus wouldn't have been written about as he was somewhat unknown to most (this makes me laugh too... son of god comes to earth and the PR was TERRIBLE) The bible makes it sound like he was a minor celebrity, especially before he was dispatched. And not one person wrote anything about it? Maybe that's the case because it didn't happen, except in the imaginations of some psychotic zealots decades later.

Look. People making claims is nothing new. Walk down any street in any major metro area and you'll hear a dozen people or more claiming to be the son of god, or a faith healer, or a psychic. We don't report on it, it isn't newsworthy, and we barely even acknowledge it as we walk to get a latte. So the consensus is that someone "like" Jesus "may" have lived in the past. And christians hang their hat on that as if it gives credence to their horrible book?

Give me a break.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2014, 02:47:48 PM »
What is the primary piece of historical, solid, irrefutable evidence that Jesus was anything more than a guy who was killed for causing social unrest?

if that was all he was, Christianity wouldn't be around today.

John Frum, he come, mon.  John Frum, he come.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2014, 02:56:27 PM »
I think historians have found additional documents that indicate the baptism and execution.    It's hard to know the full consensus, but what I read online from non-christian sources indicates that historians mostly agree Jesus was a real person.   

I've read a bunch of stuff on the subject and have never read anything about a document regarding a baptism or execution of Jesus.  (Unless you count Gospels, written a minimum of 30 years after the event.)

The baptism seems especially dubious, since baptism was extremely unusual in those days, and those practicing such a thing would not have written it down. 

In general, such records for anyone like Jesus would be unlikely.  The Romans executed rebels and 'criminals' by the thousand, and few records survive. 

If the rules of historical evidence were applied to Jesus the same way they were applied to King Arthur, Arthur and Jesus would be historically about the same...legendary characters, who may or may not have existed. 

Offline Jontom10

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2014, 04:42:42 PM »
Look at the history before the arise of Israel.

All of the Bible is a plagiarism of the Epic of Gilgamesh with bits added and subtracted.

Jesus is the last of many solar messiahs. Google "solar messiah" and see.

Bible is all utter bollocks constructed to control uneducated masses of peasants.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlnnWbkMlbg

« Last Edit: July 17, 2014, 04:48:16 PM by Jontom10 »
Hasa Diga Eebowai

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2014, 08:18:56 AM »
I don't have such a hard time believing that there might have been a Jewish teacher who caused trouble for the romans and was crucified who became myth decades after his death.

I do have a bit of trouble with it being 1 teacher to be honest. would the romans have put up with the sort of shenanigans that jesus purportedly got up to if it were 1 man causing all the trouble?
Would the jews for that matter?(!)

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2014, 08:31:02 AM »
This is good stuff.

I think to some degree, non-believers just follow the evidence and don't care where it leads, though, the idea that any guy could perform miracles and raise the dead should be met with extreme doubt.

Obviously Christians know that helping other people to "stay strong in the faith" or "come to the faith" is a calling of their faith, so, lying about it or twisting the truth might still be considered for the greater good.  After all, they KNOW in their heart that Jesus is their savior so there must be good reasons why all the evidence is poor.

I'm just trying to better understand these things because Christian's toss them out there and expect nobody to know any more about it...

"There's so much historical proof for Jesus"
"The Bible is the most historically proved book, like, EVER man!"

The apologist research site that Skeptic points out is clinging to things like:
Quote
Dating the gospels is very important.  If it can be established that the gospels were written early, say before the year A.D. 70, then we would have good reason for believing that they were written by the disciples of Jesus himself.  If they were written by the disciples, then their reliability, authenticity, and accuracy are better substantiated.  Also, if they were written early, this would mean that there would not have been enough time for myth to creep into the gospel accounts since it was the eyewitnesses to Christ's life that wrote them.  Furthermore, those who were alive at the time of the events could have countered the gospel accounts; and since we have no contradictory writings to the gospels, their early authorship as well as apostolic authorship becomes even more critical.

This tells us that, as much as they want to establish that the gospels were written early, they can't quite do it as fact... then they add the portion that 30 years in ancient times isn't enough time for myth?  Really?  And that nobody wrote contradictory writings about a secret account that was written down and hidden and didn't become popular until years later?   Nobody cared about early christians... it was just a cult.


A - We're talking at least 30 years... in those days, most people didn't live another 30 years past becoming an adult, and oral traditions can blow up into legend in the span of just a few years when you're telling them to new people who can't fact check you.

B - The basis for trying to date Mark so early is a scrap of parchment with one legible word on it.   Even if it was the same writer, it could have been something written years before.


Because Christians start all their research at the top down... assuming god is real, and that if there's a god it must be the god of the Bible, then they work towards proving that conclusion and justifying anything they come up against.

Even with this backward, non scientific method, there's still scant evidence for the Bible being the word of god.

In debates, the theist side will claim that there is MUCH EVIDENCE and then never name that evidence, and this is why, but I'm trying to better understand it myself.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2014, 08:36:26 AM by YRM_DM »
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #35 on: August 01, 2014, 08:49:06 AM »
So like there was this guy and like omgosh. I know nothing.

Very true.

Troll food tastes good.

Here troll have a cracker :)

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2014, 08:58:14 AM »
So most scholars, from what I've read, seem to agree that there was a guy named Jesus < snip >

What is the primary piece of historical, solid, irrefutable evidence that Jesus was anything more than a guy who was killed for causing social unrest?
There is no evidence for a biblical Jesus, there may have been a man named Jesus just as there may have been a man named Fred but it does not mean that anything that was written about him is true. This was posted by Screwtape just recently. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,27106.msg625423.html#msg625423
There is really no need to rehash old news. Not even Tacitus nor Josephus wrote about Jesus they were extrapolations, follow the links and you will see why.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

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Online One Above All

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2014, 09:08:52 AM »
Dennis Markuze, did they let you out of the asylum again? Someone better call the cops before he hurts himself.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2014, 09:21:26 AM »
Cocky biches

Hey socktroll, it's spelled bitches, and atheists.

So, it looks like you're the dumb one. Shocking, I know.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2014, 09:29:50 AM »
Irrelevant now
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 09:51:40 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2014, 09:41:17 AM »
Ibid
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 09:51:55 AM by Mrjason »

Offline UDumbo101

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2014, 09:03:33 AM »
Hello, I am wondering why you guys are spending so much of your time trying to find ways to make God to look bad or fake. Why do you spend so much of your time on it if you don't believe in it?
 
 If you believe in God but you think he's horrible, then I would look back on the New Testament of the Bible where Jesus literally dies for our sins so we can be with God again and not have to live without him forever. Jesus was a lamb who was a slain, he was innocent and yet he died for us willingly. How exactly is that being what you think, "a cruel God."? Another thing that you should read in the new testament is when he heals blind, sick, paralyzed, and everybody else that came to him and had a problem, he healed them. He also did heal a cut off ear, which is no different than a cut leg are arm. So what are you guys talking about?
 
Is this out of boredom or something? Hating on Christians and God is kind of well...childish. I wonder if you get money off of this or something. You are either angry, bored, or like to hate on people and God. Guess it makes you feel better about yourself.
 
And this is not a hate comment. I am not hating you like the way you are hating God. I am just simply wondering why you guys are working a website such as this. I have been a Christian for some time now and the accusations you make on here are very hateful and full of nothing but opinion, not fact of what comes from the Bible. If you don't believe in the Bible, then why hate God? If you don't believe in God, then what's the point in doing this in the first place? Every single argument that is made here is cherry picked, you cherry pick at what the Bible says and work it out on your own terms so you can make it look bad. But you don't read the Bible fully, when I read these posts in these forums, there is always a hole at hand.
 
It always ends up being cherry picked and not fully read. You ask all these questions about why God does this and why God does that, but I can easily find the answer within the Bible. Oh but of course...that wouldn't work for you if you don't believe in it....so again why are you doing this? lol. 
 
Please do reply. : ) I have asked a lot of questions but don't be afraid to answer all of them if you want.

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #42 on: August 02, 2014, 09:15:17 AM »
Hello, I am wondering why you guys are spending so much of your time trying to find ways to make God to look bad or fake.

Why do theists try to impose their religions on everyone else? Is their faith so weak that they must "prove" how "faithful" they "really are" by "converting" everyone[1]?
 1. The usual/preferred method is to kill all non-believers of their religion or brainwash them.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline G-Roll

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #43 on: August 02, 2014, 09:26:07 AM »
Nothing you haven't heard before...

2 Kings 23-25
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 25And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

I await with baited breath for you to explain my cherry picked scripture. Please do enlighten me with your knowledge of this unknowable deity who has a plan that is way beyond any mere mortals comprehension... Yet here you are to tell me all about god and how much he loves us all. Except maybe 42 kids who make fun of  Elisha.
Yeah sure this is old testament and maybe you are a christian that doesn’t "believe" in the old test. But without the old test there is no reason for Jesus to die or for Jesus to be the messiah. So who is the cherry picker? My apologies if you are not the kind of christian I described (there are many of you) but recently I keep hearing the old test is nothing.

And I personally don’t hate god, Marduk, Santa, Freddie Kruger, Harry Potter, or Thor. God is the only fictional character in that list who inspires massive amounts of people to do both good and bad things. A good example is my local church is hosting a soup kitchen. Yay them that’s awesome. A bad would be the preacher at that church is anti-gay and  feels that his homophobia is god given and it's part of his calling to rid us of the scourge of homosexuals and all the evil sin that god created them with. So his hate is god inspired. That is bad. You disagree?

And what's with the name UDumbo101? Are you here to call us dumb or are you some kind of Disney fan?

Offline UDumbo101

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #44 on: August 02, 2014, 09:45:53 AM »
Hello, I am wondering why you guys are spending so much of your time trying to find ways to make God to look bad or fake.

Why do theists try to impose their religions on everyone else? Is their faith so weak that they must "prove" how "faithful" they "really are" by "converting" everyone[1]?
 1. The usual/preferred method is to kill all non-believers of their religion or brainwash them.

Actually the reason why Christians witness to others is because it is the nicest thing you can do for someone. Why? Because Jesus is the only way to heaven, if the people who are saved and know of God tell others about it then the some of the people who don't know of God or denies Jesus will know of God as well. That is why we witness, it has nothing to do with faith being weak. lol It's to plant the seeds so it can save them from an eternity without God.

Christians who literally devote their time to witness to people have strong faith in God, that would make more sense to me. They have such a strong faith in God and so they would like the same for others since it is such a wonderful experience. And you didn't answer any of my other questions. :)
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:16:46 AM by UDumbo101 »

Offline UDumbo101

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #45 on: August 02, 2014, 10:12:29 AM »
2 Kings 23-25
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 25And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.

Okay. Here's what I don't get. You don't believe in the Bible, and yet you use versus from the Bible, that sounds very hypocritical. Why would you be using the Bible as a reply for an argument when your here because you don't believe in all of that stuff? lol. Anyways, I went to go look for this in the Bible and...I think you got the versus wrong because I didn't see it in there. I am not joking, I am in 2 Kings and looking at chapter 23 and verse 25 but it doesn't say that. You said 2 Kings 23 (meaning chapter) - 25 (meaning verse) right? Otherwise you typed it wrong.


I await with baited breath for you to explain my cherry picked scripture. Please do enlighten me with your knowledge of this unknowable deity who has a plan that is way beyond any mere mortals comprehension... Yet here you are to tell me all about god and how much he loves us all. Except maybe 42 kids who make fun of  Elisha.

...The heading of the website says," Why does God not heal amputees?" Its a direct hit to us literally, to believers. It's literally all about reasons why God doesn't exist, it's not it's own thing. That is why I am here. To correct you.

Yeah sure this is old testament and maybe you are a christian that doesn’t "believe" in the old test. But without the old test there is no reason for Jesus to die or for Jesus to be the messiah. So who is the cherry picker? My apologies if you are not the kind of christian I described (there are many of you) but recently I keep hearing the old test is nothing.

A real Christian wouldn't  not believe in the Bible. The Bible is Gods word...why would a Christian not believe in the old testament? That makes no sense. The old testament is just as true as the new one. Who are these, "Christians," saying this? lol. 

And I personally don’t hate god, Marduk, Santa, Freddie Kruger, Harry Potter, or Thor. God is the only fictional character in that list who inspires massive amounts of people to do both good and bad things. A good example is my local church is hosting a soup kitchen. Yay them that’s awesome. A bad would be the preacher at that church is anti-gay and  feels that his homophobia is god given and it's part of his calling to rid us of the scourge of homosexuals and all the evil sin that god created them with. So his hate is god inspired. That is bad. You disagree?

I like how you compare it to things that are actually fiction. But how does a God have a resemblance to any of these things? If you are going to compare him to something, then make it right. Santa is not a God. Thor is not a God. Harry Potter is not a God. These are waay waay too obvious as being fiction. How do you know whether God exists or not?

How is that bad? Sin is bad. No one ever said that we should hate gays. Its the sin that we hate just like any other. And I have many proofs as to why homosexuality is something they can control and help doing.

And what's with the name UDumbo101? Are you here to call us dumb or are you some kind of Disney fan?

I think you people on here are foolish. And I'm also a Disney fan woo
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 10:15:44 AM by UDumbo101 »

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #46 on: August 02, 2014, 10:55:19 AM »
switched thread for this.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2014, 10:57:45 AM »
Okay. Here's what I don't get. You don't believe in the Bible
Yes you have that correct.

Quote
and yet you use versus from the Bible, that sounds very hypocritical. Why would you be using the Bible as a reply for an argument when your here because you don't believe in all of that stuff?
Because you do. So I refute your argument or "evidence." I don’t share your position on this whole god thing. Does that make sense? It's very similar to you disagree with this website so you come here and tell us we are wrong. By your logic I would conclude that your posting here is very hypocritical, because you think god heals amputees yet you post on a website that says differently. But that would be silly right?

Quote
I think you got the versus wrong because I didn't see it in there. I am not joking, I am in 2 Kings and looking at chapter 23 and verse 25 but it doesn't say that. You said 2 Kings 23 (meaning chapter) - 25 (meaning verse) right? Otherwise you typed it wrong.
2 kings 2:24 sorry. Here is the whole thing
http://biblehub.com/kjv/2_kings/2.htm

Here is my cherry picking
23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. 25And he went from thence to mount Carmel, and from thence he returned to Samaria.
You do know of this verse right? It's almost the worst of the atrocities. Top 10 maybe 6.

Quote
A real Christian wouldn't  not believe in the Bible. The Bible is Gods word...why would a Christian not believe in the old testament? That makes no sense. The old testament is just as true as the new one. Who are these, "Christians," saying this? lol. 
I know right!?
So how do you come to the conclusion that god is love, benevolent, or even a nice guy if your read the old test? Perhaps his temporary sacrifice (that has changed nothing here on earth. You have to die to see his "works" wink wink)  is more than enough for you to let an entire book of a villain slide? To quote an old post/video from long ago "If Superman killed every first born son in Metropolis to force Lex Luther to let Louis Lane out of his captivity would Superman still be a hero?"  If not why does god get a pass?

Quote
Thor is not a God
Sure he is. As is Marduk or Allah.

Quote
How do you know whether God exists or not?
When I look at the world I do not see the hand of any god. I see a natural world without any divine creation. Obviously neither one of us can prove it otherwise we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

Quote
And I have many proofs as to why homosexuality is something they can control and help doing.
I can control myself from doing many things. Rarely do I choose to do so to please individuals or large groups of people (read Christians) who think I am an abomination anyway. Who set out to deny basic rights to others that they enjoy. Rarely do I sympathize at all with those who wish to breed discrimination. Especially when it's based in fiction and they claim this fiction gives them some sort of moral high ground.

 
Quote
I think you people on here are foolish
Yet here you are stooping down to our level?  Even sending PMs to me?
I think you are a troll. Or at least a sock puppet. So I might not waste to much of my time talking with you. My apologies if I have you pegged all wrong.

 

Offline Energized

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2014, 05:50:51 PM »
Meh. Typical troll who, in his / her arrogance, thinks he knows it all. Someone unwilling to even learn the material before spouting off. To even suggest s/he's understood the bible shows what a liar s/he is. No sane person would ever read the OT and call it holy. Ug. It's obvious s/he hasn't read it or perhaps s/he has and just not understood it? Ignorance amongst the sheep is bliss, after all.

And you know what's really sad? This is how I used to be. I am so ashamed of myself sometimes when I think back on my behaviour. I hurt so many people.

Again, meh. I won't feed the troll. Why waste my time on someone who can't even speak intelligently about what s/he has devoted their life to?

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Online Graybeard

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2014, 06:12:35 PM »
What is the primary piece of historical, solid, irrefutable evidence that Jesus was anything more than a guy who was killed for causing social unrest?

if that was all he was, Christianity wouldn't be around today.

Yeah, but the catholics are demon-controlled, so you can't trust anything they do, including the Bible, as any demon worth his salt would destroy the only book that provides "evidence" for the true god.

Demons don't destroy books with evidence for God. They are too scared to do something like that because they fear God too much.

Skep,

It appears that both of these claims have been refuted.

Do you have any comment?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2014, 06:34:03 PM »
Hello, I am wondering why you guys are spending so much of your time trying to find ways to make God to look bad or fake.

Why do theists try to impose their religions on everyone else? Is their faith so weak that they must "prove" how "faithful" they "really are" by "converting" everyone[1]?
 1. The usual/preferred method is to kill all non-believers of their religion or brainwash them.

Actually the reason why Christians witness to others is because it is the nicest thing you can do for someone. Why? Because Jesus is the only way to heaven, if the people who are saved and know of God tell others about it then the some of the people who don't know of God or denies Jesus will know of God as well. That is why we witness, it has nothing to do with faith being weak. lol It's to plant the seeds so it can save them from an eternity without God.

Christians who literally devote their time to witness to people have strong faith in God, that would make more sense to me. They have such a strong faith in God and so they would like the same for others since it is such a wonderful experience. And you didn't answer any of my other questions. :)
There are many gods for which there is no evidence for.....your god is one of those many gods....zero evidence.
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Re: Historicity of Jesus
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2014, 07:47:02 PM »
Hello, I am wondering why you guys are spending so much of your time trying to find ways to make God to look bad or fake. Why do you spend so much of your time on it if you don't believe in it?

Because believers have done absolutely horrible things to human culture in the name of your god.  My own ancestors in Norway and Iceland were disinherited and forced at sword-point to practice a foreign religion 1000 years ago.  Priceless, irreplaceable books were destroyed when the Library of Alexandria went up in flames many centuries ago.  Church officials and local governments killed thousands in the name of "witch hunts," confiscating the property of people who had no way to defend themselves from the false accusations.

But wait, there's more!  Even today the religious do horrible things to others.  They stand in the way of scientific advancement, women's rights, LGBT rights, and even the right of children to freedom from abuse.  Worse, a lunatic fringe of end-time believers sees the Earth as something disposable and eagerly await the end of the world so that Jesus can return and put things right -- Even though religion has never been able to put things right before.  Garden of Eden sound familiar?  The Noachide flood?  How about the CruciFiction, supposedly the Death to End All Deaths?[1]

So why doesn't your god just heal an amputee, then, and put a rest to our collective doubts?
 1. Just as the "Great War," now known to history as World War I, was the "war to end all wars."  That didn't work so well either, did it?
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