Author Topic: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".  (Read 1450 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2014, 12:24:06 PM »
Can I jump in and reiterate that it is a very, very bad idea for an alcoholic or drug addict to "test their resolve" by putting themselves in situations where they will be around the substance they should never use? This is a recipe for disaster.

The scientific literature is very clear on what helps addicts stay clean; avoid all triggers and reminders of the addictive substance. Alcoholics should not work as bartenders. Drug addicts should not work in pharmacies.

Please ignore that terrible suggestion, people. Nobody should have to "prove" to anyone else how good their willpower is. Just stay away from the stuff.

I grew up surrounded by alcoholics, and I got chills just reading that ignorant sh!t from you, skeptic.  Do some real research on the topic or please STFU. You are not helping anyone saying stuff like that.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2014, 12:29:06 PM »
Can I jump in and reiterate that it is a very, very bad idea for an alcoholic or drug addict to "test their resolve" by putting themselves in situations where they will be around the substance they should never use? This is a recipe for disaster.

The scientific literature is very clear on what helps addicts stay clean; avoid all triggers and reminders of the addictive substance. Alcoholics should not work as bartenders. Drug addicts should not work in pharmacies.

Please ignore that terrible suggestion, people. Nobody should have to "prove" to anyone else how good their willpower is. Just stay away from the stuff.

I grew up surrounded by alcoholics, and I got chills just reading that ignorant sh!t from you, skeptic.  Do some real research on the topic or please STFU. You are not helping anyone saying stuff like that.

That is because those methods work if the goal is to solely get them to quit alcohol. I mean, you could lock them in a cage and they will never drink again either, but we won't do that.

But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2014, 12:30:09 PM »
But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

So you capitalize "he" in the middle of a sentence, but not at the beginning of one? Not as weird as everything else you say, but I thought it was interesting nonetheless.
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Offline Dante

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #61 on: July 16, 2014, 12:41:30 PM »
But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

Bullshit. The threat of death is "force".

Regardless, what happened to your "teaching" analogy? Is it still valid?

Sure, the parent could take the cookies away and hide them somewhere, but anyone can do that. That isn't teaching jack diddly.

Your god wasn't looking for a teaching moment. He was looking for blind obedience, if the story is to be believed.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline epidemic

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #62 on: July 16, 2014, 12:43:15 PM »
Can I jump in and reiterate that it is a very, very bad idea for an alcoholic or drug addict to "test their resolve" by putting themselves in situations where they will be around the substance they should never use? This is a recipe for disaster.

The scientific literature is very clear on what helps addicts stay clean; avoid all triggers and reminders of the addictive substance. Alcoholics should not work as bartenders. Drug addicts should not work in pharmacies.

Please ignore that terrible suggestion, people. Nobody should have to "prove" to anyone else how good their willpower is. Just stay away from the stuff.

I grew up surrounded by alcoholics, and I got chills just reading that ignorant sh!t from you, skeptic.  Do some real research on the topic or please STFU. You are not helping anyone saying stuff like that.

That is because those methods work if the goal is to solely get them to quit alcohol. I mean, you could lock them in a cage and they will never drink again either, but we won't do that.

But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

That is all well and good.   But in practical terms.  Avoiding triggers works and keeping alcohol around the house is doomed to failure 99 out of 100 times.  Perhaps after you have been off the bottle for a few months or years your wife can keep some stuff around but only after you are in (remission???)  but even then it is not the best idea.

When I am solidly on the tobacco wagon I can be around people who smoke with no problem but in the first few months it is shere torture requiring tremendous self control.

as far as god wanting adam and eve to make the choice freely.   Again this is where proper dicipline comes in.  You teach them self control.  You don't dangle fruit in front of them and then with no lessons you punish them with banishment and death. 

Again would you do the same thing to your kids?  You are totally against pot.  Little Johnny decides to cave into peer pressure and comes home one night stoned.  Do you kill him?  Do you kick him out of the house?  Or do you have a discussion with him and remove his xbox/cell phone privileges for a month?

There was no lesson here, no proof of loving parent trying to guide/teach someone.  Purely petty crime and excessive penalty with no chance of reprieve.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #63 on: July 16, 2014, 01:03:38 PM »
But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

If the alternative is eternal hellfire, then I'd be just fine with having no choice to speak of.

Anyone else agree?
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Offline epidemic

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #64 on: July 16, 2014, 01:35:01 PM »
But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

If the alternative is eternal hellfire, then I'd be just fine with having no choice to speak of.

Anyone else agree?

Many here would claim to prefer hellfire to hanging out with god.  I was surprised by this revelation but personally if god credibly displayed himself to me today I would ask his forgiveness and follow any rules he recommended. 

Offline Jag

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #65 on: July 16, 2014, 01:49:45 PM »
But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

If the alternative is eternal hellfire, then I'd be just fine with having no choice to speak of.

Anyone else agree?

Many here would claim to prefer hellfire to hanging out with god.  I was surprised by this revelation but personally if god credibly displayed himself to me today I would ask his forgiveness and follow any rules he recommended.

If god credibly displayed himself to me pretty much ever, I'd be asking for a couple of f'ing explanations LONG before I would consider asking for forgiveness, or agreeing to follow any rules he might put forward. But I'm difficult like that.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #66 on: July 16, 2014, 02:13:55 PM »
But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

If the alternative is eternal hellfire, then I'd be just fine with having no choice to speak of.

Anyone else agree?

Many here would claim to prefer hellfire to hanging out with god.  I was surprised by this revelation but personally if god credibly displayed himself to me today I would ask his forgiveness and follow any rules he recommended.

If god credibly displayed himself to me pretty much ever, I'd be asking for a couple of f'ing explanations LONG before I would consider asking for forgiveness, or agreeing to follow any rules he might put forward. But I'm difficult like that.

I might politely ask if I could ask a few questions but I would not push the issue much.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #67 on: July 16, 2014, 03:40:57 PM »
Yes, but the "evil" is a lack of trust (faith) in Jehovah.  Remember that Abraham was declared righteous not by following a law but by trusting Jehovah.  Trusting Jehovah is good and not trusting Jehovah is bad.

I haven't trusted jehovah for over half a century and I'm doing just fine. I know, I know, you're gonna threaten me with both a lousy Internet connection and eternal damnation in the hereafter because of this, but I don't think so. With no evidence whatsoever that there ever was or will be a god of any variety, I will assume that death is exactly that. Death. But if it isn't, and I am condemned to spend eternity burning, etc. at least I'll be the same place all my relatives and most of my friends will end up, because your story is so uncompelling that there just aren't many of us doing exactly right, as per your religious beliefs.

If my sweet little old grandmother can spend eternity in hell because god loves us, I can too.

(By the way, the notion of eternal suffering is so human a threat that it could only come from the mouths of the religious. Nobody else is so hung up on love, etc. to come up with such a ridiculous and threatening notion. Funny how the religious, so righteous and so loving, can giggle over an eternity in hell. Could it be that there is no real love in christianity, only faux love. And that you guys don't even know what real love is? Me thinks that's the case.)

I just spent several posts refuting the claim that God tortures people after death.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26958.0.html
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2014, 03:45:23 PM »
On what do you base this statement?  What animals were loving or trusting?

I didn't use past tense.  I used present tense.  Animals ARE able to trust in the absence of the knowledge of good and evil.  This is evidence that knowledge of good and evil is not necessary to trust Jehovah.

Quote
You are comparing A&E to animals.  Is it not one of the central ideas of judeo-xian thought that humans and animals are qualitatively different?

You're right.  If animals can have the desired behavior then Adam and Eve were more than capable.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2014, 03:55:21 PM »
The tree is metaphor, as is the garden. The bible states outright what the tree is a metaphor of: the knowledge of good and evil. The mind-poisoning message of the story is this: Turn off your inner moral compass. Discontinue your pursuit of knowledge. Morality is whatever the book tells you it is. Truth is whatever the book tells you it is. Questioning this will be severely punished. Blindly following leads to paradise. Just believe and do as you're told.

The story is a tool for attaining compliance. A tool for attaining power.

When jstwebbrowsing said this:

Your first assumption seems to be that the point of the test was to test their knowledge of good and evil so that their knowledge of it becomes relevant.  The test was not one of over their knowledge of good and evil so their actual knowledge of it is irrelevant.

The test was a test of the trust and love of Jehovah.  In this regard even untrusting animals with no knowledge of good and evil are able to love and trust.  Therefore so could have Adam and Eve.

and then this:

Yes, but the "evil" is a lack of trust (faith) in Jehovah.  Remember that Abraham was declared righteous not by following a law but by trusting Jehovah.  Trusting Jehovah is good and not trusting Jehovah is bad.

he had it exactly right. He's too caught up in the indoctrination to see how manipulative and evil those ideas are, but his clear expression of them shows that the story has achieved in him exactly the effect that it was designed to achieve.

I've never been disappointed by trusting Jehovah.  For example, the Bible counsels I should not go reviling others as they revile me.  I cannot forsee the outcome of reviling or not reviling others.  Therefore I trust Jehovah and refrain from it.  I don't find that manipulative or evil either one.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2014, 04:21:37 PM »
Can I jump in and reiterate that it is a very, very bad idea for an alcoholic or drug addict to "test their resolve" by putting themselves in situations where they will be around the substance they should never use? This is a recipe for disaster.

The scientific literature is very clear on what helps addicts stay clean; avoid all triggers and reminders of the addictive substance. Alcoholics should not work as bartenders. Drug addicts should not work in pharmacies.

Please ignore that terrible suggestion, people. Nobody should have to "prove" to anyone else how good their willpower is. Just stay away from the stuff.

I grew up surrounded by alcoholics, and I got chills just reading that ignorant sh!t from you, skeptic.  Do some real research on the topic or please STFU. You are not helping anyone saying stuff like that.

That is because those methods work if the goal is to solely get them to quit alcohol. I mean, you could lock them in a cage and they will never drink again either, but we won't do that.

But in the God analogy, He doesn't want us to just abstain from a choice by giving us no choice. he wants it to be our choice, not forced.

No, the methods are not solely to get people to quit the substance, although for many, many families, employers, schools and communities that would be enough.[1]The methods are to enable the person to be a functioning, contributing member of their society without using the substance. So, no, locking them up to keep them sober is not a valid treatment option.

God, in your analogy, does not seem to know very much about how the human brain functions, although he supposedly created it. Maybe god should spend some time reading up on topics like neuroscience and cognition as well as addiction.
 1. There are people in South America who have submitted to having the pleasure areas of their brains surgically shut off so they would be able to stop using cocaine, for example. They have tried everything, including god. And they are willing to never feel any pleasure again to save themselves from drugs. That is even more extreme than locking people up.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Willie

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2014, 08:23:45 PM »
I've never been disappointed by trusting Jehovah.

Look up "confirmation bias", and, if you're willing to be brutally honest with yourself, you will begin to understand why that is.

For example, the Bible counsels I should not go reviling others as they revile me.  I cannot forsee the outcome of reviling or not reviling others.  Therefore I trust Jehovah and refrain from it.  I don't find that manipulative or evil either one.

A noble enough teaching. But why choose that example instead of one of these?

Deuteronomy  22:13-30
Deuteronomy 13:1-18

Could it be that your inner moral compass can still tell right from wrong even when it contradicts what your god supposedly commands? Could it be that you are selectively acknowledging the good examples and either ignoring or rationalizing away the bad ones because that's what it takes to sustain the belief that your religion is good?

Even if none of those horrible examples existed, I would still contend that teaching people to subjugate their inner moral compass, their ability to reason, and their thirst for knowledge to an external belief system is manipulative and evil. It cripples the very best qualities of being human, and it gives the purveyors of such belief systems undue power to manipulate.

Offline screwtape

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #72 on: July 17, 2014, 09:34:15 AM »
I didn't use past tense.  I used present tense.  Animals ARE able to trust...

Please explain in what way animals trust. This will probably require a definition of what you think trust is.


You're right.  If animals can have the desired behavior then Adam and Eve were more than capable.

I think you are mixing up human will with animal behaviors.  An animal's behaviors are only as good as their trainers.  When you take your dog to training school it is not the dog that gets trained so much as it is you, the owner.  If your dog is an unruly mess that pees in the living room, that is a reflection on you as a trainer and owner.  Similarly, that must mean that if A&E were just animals with bad behaviors, then god did a poor job house breaking them.



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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #73 on: July 17, 2014, 02:31:04 PM »
On what do you base this statement?  What animals were loving or trusting?

I didn't use past tense.  I used present tense.  Animals ARE able to trust in the absence of the knowledge of good and evil.  This is evidence that knowledge of good and evil is not necessary to trust Jehovah.

Quote
You are comparing A&E to animals.  Is it not one of the central ideas of judeo-xian thought that humans and animals are qualitatively different?

You're right.  If animals can have the desired behavior then Adam and Eve were more than capable.

Animals "trust" others when, through trial and error, those others prove trustworthy. That is to say, animals don't just "trust". They learn to trust, based on past experiences. Often, even a mistreated or neglected animal can learn to trust that food will appear at regular times, that nobody will hit it or that it is okay to sleep here but not there.

Of course, baby animals have to "trust" their mamas or whoever to take care of them, because they have no choice. But they too, learn the rules of the pack or herd through trial and error.

If a bear mama instructed the baby cubs not to leave the burrow, and they did anyway, would she angrily kick the babies out of the burrow forever-- and never even allow their offspring to return? Or would she chastise the babies, cuff them on the head, growl at them and then give them some berries and snuggle them back in? Which is more like what humans would consider loving parental behavior?[1]

Who should A and E have trusted? God or the serpent? How were they supposed to know who was more trustworthy, when each says they are to be trusted? How much trial and error time did they get with each?
 1. Some animals do harsh stuff--hyenas come to mind, where the young females fight their sisters to the death to see who will be the next leader of the pack. A female hyena would be foolish to trust another female who will kick her out of the pack or kill her if she makes a false move. But that is more like what god did to A and E-- not a very good model for human interactions, is it?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #74 on: July 18, 2014, 10:34:47 PM »
I didn't use past tense.  I used present tense.  Animals ARE able to trust...

Please explain in what way animals trust. This will probably require a definition of what you think trust is.


You're right.  If animals can have the desired behavior then Adam and Eve were more than capable.

I think you are mixing up human will with animal behaviors.  An animal's behaviors are only as good as their trainers.  When you take your dog to training school it is not the dog that gets trained so much as it is you, the owner.  If your dog is an unruly mess that pees in the living room, that is a reflection on you as a trainer and owner.  Similarly, that must mean that if A&E were just animals with bad behaviors, then god did a poor job house breaking them.

For example, horses are typically untrusting animals.  Whether or not they trust the rider lagely determines how they behave.  A horse is capable of great and daring feats if it trusts it's rider.  They will even allow themselves to be pushed too far sometimes.

Trust is what Jehovah wanted, not blind obediance.  Education takes time and will in fact be neverending.  When we don't understand we need to trust Jehovah.  It is vital to our survival.  He knows how to live forever.  We don't.  We should listen to the one that does.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #75 on: July 18, 2014, 10:43:30 PM »
Who should A and E have trusted? God or the serpent? How were they supposed to know who was more trustworthy, when each says they are to be trusted? How much trial and error time did they get with each?

Consider.  Jehovah created Adam.  Jehovah created a mate for him.  He also created a lovely garden paradise for them.  He undoubtedly spoke to Adam during the time of him naming the animals at least.  Jehovah told him if he ate the fruit in the middle of the garden, he would die.  So here they are enjoying a wonderful life.

Along comes the serpent.  It's never done anything for them, they don't even know who it is, and it slanders the one that provided them all these things without any evidence to support his claims.  Who would you trust?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline jetson

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #76 on: July 18, 2014, 10:57:36 PM »
Who should A and E have trusted? God or the serpent? How were they supposed to know who was more trustworthy, when each says they are to be trusted? How much trial and error time did they get with each?

Consider.  Jehovah created Adam.  Jehovah created a mate for him.  He also created a lovely garden paradise for them.  He undoubtedly spoke to Adam during the time of him naming the animals at least.  Jehovah told him if he ate the fruit in the middle of the garden, he would die.  So here they are enjoying a wonderful life.

Along comes the serpent.  It's never done anything for them, they don't even know who it is, and it slanders the one that provided them all these things without any evidence to support his claims.  Who would you trust?

I would trust the serpent.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #77 on: July 18, 2014, 11:30:31 PM »
Consider.  Jehovah Incompetently created Adam.  Jehovah Incompetently created a mate for him.  He also Incompetently created a lovely garden paradise for them.  He undoubtedly Incompetently spoke to Adam during the time of him naming the animals at least.  Jehovah Incompetently told him if he ate the fruit in the middle of the garden, he would die.  So here they are Incompetently enjoying a wonderful life.

Along comes a competent serpent.  It's never done anything for them, nor has it made silly demands, they don't even know who it is (though Adam should have. He named all the animals, after all), and it slanders the incompetent one that incompetently provided them all these incompetent things without any evidence to support his claims.  Who would you trust?

Fixed that for you.

Were your god competent, the story would have had a different outcome. Apparently omnipotence is an inadequate force when it comes to trying to do things right.

And of course, after he mucked everything up by doing everything wrong, he put the blame on the victims. Still happens today. So i assume A&E were black. And hassled because of their skin color. But that's another story.
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Offline Willie

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #78 on: July 18, 2014, 11:49:35 PM »
Jstwebbrowsing, do you consider the A&E story to be literal, metaphor, or some mix of the two? Were Adam and Eve the real, physical, first two humans? Was the Garden of Eden a real, physical, place? Did God actually make Adam from dust? Did God actually remove one of Adam's ribs and use it to make Eve? Was the serpent a real serpent that actually talked? Was the tree a real tree with real fruit that Eve actually, physically, ate?


Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #79 on: July 19, 2014, 12:04:16 AM »
Were your god competent, the story would have had a different outcome.

And what is the outcome?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #80 on: July 19, 2014, 12:25:20 AM »
Were your god competent, the story would have had a different outcome.

And what is the outcome?

We would all be living in paradise, that tree of knowledge still in place, and none of us would eat from it. We would all know of your god and believe in him and worship him, etc. And none of us would be questioning his competence because he would have displayed no incompetence.

If I build a teeter-totter for my kids with only one end, and tell them to go play on it, and if they couldn't go up and down on it, they'd have the leave the back yard forever, is it their fault it didn't work, or mine?

If your god is real, he knew A&E would fail his test, he knew that the world would be a much different place than what it was like in the garden, and he did nothing to prevent it. Then, as things deteriorated over time, he got mad (why, he knew what was going to happen) and drowned virtually all of us. Etc, etc. etc. I'll never know why the story impresses you guys. You're like battered kids who cry when authorities remove them from the home, because the home where they were beaten was the only home they'd ever known.

Since it isn't true, there are options. You've come to the right place, but so far, you've had the wrong attitude. You keep thinking that you're the one that is right.

You're not.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #81 on: July 19, 2014, 12:27:47 AM »
Jstwebbrowsing, do you consider the A&E story to be literal, metaphor, or some mix of the two? Were Adam and Eve the real, physical, first two humans? Was the Garden of Eden a real, physical, place? Did God actually make Adam from dust? Did God actually remove one of Adam's ribs and use it to make Eve? Was the serpent a real serpent that actually talked? Was the tree a real tree with real fruit that Eve actually, physically, ate?

I believe it is historical.  I wouldn't say that Adam, or Eve, were created in a single moment in time and I wouldn't say they weren't.  I reserve judgment.  The Garden of Eden was real.  Yes, he was created from dust, and apparantly water.  But I don't know if it was a single act of creation or through some process.  I do know Jehovah often uses long processes.  For example, he did not create the garden, he planted it.  He was working with natural process.
The creation of the heavens and the earth were not single acts of creation either nor are the seven days of creation 24 hour days.  But I can neither confirm nor deny if Adam and Eve were single acts of creation.  I think it is unlikely since everything else was a process.  It seems we actually have a very dumbed down version of creation.

The serpent was real but did not actually speak itself.  Satan either talked through the serpent or in some may made it appear to speak.  I believe the tree in the center of the garden was a real tree, but I don't believe there was anything special about it.  It was not a magical tree.  The fruit is not what actually "opened their eyes" but it was the act of disobediance that did.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #82 on: July 19, 2014, 01:36:06 AM »
Kudos for you saying you don't know when you don't know. That is more honest than some religious folks who make stuff up they could not possibly know.

A few more questions. Was the real garden of Eden on earth, or somewhere else? If it was on earth, where exactly was it? is the location marked in some way?  Lastly, why did Jehovah allow Satan into the garden?

It seems like allowing a known child molester to work at a preschool. And then getting mad at the kids for getting molested by him:

"I told you kids not to go into the side playground, because we can't see you from the main building. He told you it was okay to play there and you listened to him. You went there to play, and he caught you and hurt you. Well, just for that, I'm kicking you out of my school forever. He's getting his pay docked."

Sick.  :( :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #83 on: July 19, 2014, 02:32:22 AM »
Yes, but the "evil" is a lack of trust (faith) in Jehovah.  Remember that Abraham was declared righteous not by following a law but by trusting Jehovah.  Trusting Jehovah is good and not trusting Jehovah is bad.

I haven't trusted jehovah for over half a century and I'm doing just fine. I know, I know, you're gonna threaten me with both a lousy Internet connection and eternal damnation in the hereafter because of this, but I don't think so. With no evidence whatsoever that there ever was or will be a god of any variety, I will assume that death is exactly that. Death. But if it isn't, and I am condemned to spend eternity burning, etc. at least I'll be the same place all my relatives and most of my friends will end up, because your story is so uncompelling that there just aren't many of us doing exactly right, as per your religious beliefs.

If my sweet little old grandmother can spend eternity in hell because god loves us, I can too.

(By the way, the notion of eternal suffering is so human a threat that it could only come from the mouths of the religious. Nobody else is so hung up on love, etc. to come up with such a ridiculous and threatening notion. Funny how the religious, so righteous and so loving, can giggle over an eternity in hell. Could it be that there is no real love in christianity, only faux love. And that you guys don't even know what real love is? Me thinks that's the case.)

I just spent several posts refuting the claim that God tortures people after death.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26958.0.html
However! You failed. It is pointless posting up a link to failure. It does not advance you argument.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #84 on: July 19, 2014, 01:35:06 PM »
A few more questions. Was the real garden of Eden on earth, or somewhere else?

Yes it was on the earth.

Quote
If it was on earth, where exactly was it?

I don't know.


Quote
is the location marked in some way?

Vaguely in scripture, but without anyone to take care of it, it ceased to exist.

Quote
Lastly, why did Jehovah allow Satan into the garden?

Satan was allowed to offer them an alternate form of rulership so they could freely choose Jehovah's rulership or not.  To not have allowed them an alternative would make Jehovah a very different God and would make us very different people.  Jehovah knows the alternatives have failed and will fail, but people must come to this realization on their own.  All of this time has actually been an educational period for mankind. 

Even without Satan the question would inevitably occur anyway.  "Why should we listen to Jehovah?"  Jehovah is allowing us to find out.  Look what occured in ancient Israel.

"4Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah; 5and they said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. 6But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto Jehovah. 7And Jehovah said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee; for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not be king over them." (1 Sameul 8:4-7)

Adam and Eve effectively did the same thing.  They rejected Jehovah's kingship over them.  Jehovah allowed them to do it.  Satan tempted them but the desire was in them.  James said, "each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." (James 1:14,15)

Satan enticed them but it was their own desire that caused them to eat the fruit.


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #85 on: July 19, 2014, 02:20:10 PM »
And of course, as humans with free will, we are not free to choose anyone other than jehovah or satan. Its one or the other. No other possible choices exist. We have to be led. By superdudes. Because that's what free will is for. Pick one or the other. Reject one, the other becomes your leader by default.

Kind of like republicans and democrats, but without all the frickin' talk shows.

Got it. Thanks for clarifying that.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #86 on: July 19, 2014, 02:33:10 PM »
Yes, but the "evil" is a lack of trust (faith) in Jehovah.  Remember that Abraham was declared righteous not by following a law but by trusting Jehovah.  Trusting Jehovah is good and not trusting Jehovah is bad.

I haven't trusted jehovah for over half a century and I'm doing just fine. I know, I know, you're gonna threaten me with both a lousy Internet connection and eternal damnation in the hereafter because of this, but I don't think so. With no evidence whatsoever that there ever was or will be a god of any variety, I will assume that death is exactly that. Death. But if it isn't, and I am condemned to spend eternity burning, etc. at least I'll be the same place all my relatives and most of my friends will end up, because your story is so uncompelling that there just aren't many of us doing exactly right, as per your religious beliefs.

If my sweet little old grandmother can spend eternity in hell because god loves us, I can too.

(By the way, the notion of eternal suffering is so human a threat that it could only come from the mouths of the religious. Nobody else is so hung up on love, etc. to come up with such a ridiculous and threatening notion. Funny how the religious, so righteous and so loving, can giggle over an eternity in hell. Could it be that there is no real love in christianity, only faux love. And that you guys don't even know what real love is? Me thinks that's the case.)

I just spent several posts refuting the claim that God tortures people after death.

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26958.0.html
so other than separation from God,what is the downside(punishment)? How does eternal life separate us from any Deity?  We appear to be exactly the same....or will we be dead til Jesus returns?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)