Author Topic: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".  (Read 1350 times)

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Offline ButterFlavoredPam

A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« on: July 14, 2014, 02:19:03 PM »
Perhaps this has been brought up before and, if it has, I apologize.

I was discussing scripture with my mother-in-law over the weekend because it is fun to watch her mental gymnastics and I hit upon a question she couldn't answer.  My question is predicated on the general theist view that God was the first cause creator.

Did god want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit?

If he did, they were simply fulfilling his divine plan.  However, if he didn't, why then did he create it so that "the tree was beautiful and its fruit looked delicious".  Why not a spiny fruit that smelled bad? 
“In dark ages people are best guided by religion, as in a pitch-black night a blind man is the best guide; he knows the roads and paths better than a man who can see. When daylight comes, however, it is foolish to use blind, old men as guides.”
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2014, 02:28:56 PM »
In simple terms:

God likes to fuck with people.

That's a common thread thru the whole Bible.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 04:05:26 PM »
Anyway you examine the A and E story, the buck stops with god.

God made the garden. God put the trouble-tree there. He made A and E. He gave them the desire to eat fruit from any and all trees. He made the serpent with the ability to talk, and to lie. God could have intervened at any point along the way and changed the outcome, but he did not.

Instead, he sat back and watched the results unfold, like Auntie Entity in Mad Max Thunderdome.

And then he jumps in after everything goes pear-shaped, or apple-shaped, acting all surprised and offended.

He is not really very powerful, since he can't stop the snake. And he's not really very smart, since he put a tree there with delicious-looking but evidently poisonous fruit.  And told them not to eat from that one, see, that one right there? Do not under any circumstances eat that luscious, sweet, juicy yellow fruit from that tree right there. Yeah. That's the one. Not to eat from. That one right there.

And given all the above, he is certainly not very nice. Especially when he reacted like Tony Soprano finding out that an underling (who he set up as a test) really was holding out on him.  Not at all like a kind, patient, loving dad whose disobedient toddler ate cookies before dinner.

God in this story does not act like an omnipotent, omniscient, all-benevolent being at all. He doesn't even pass the smell test for an ordinary 21st century human parent. The one time they disobey a rule, and a fairly innocuous one at that, do you abandon your minor children to the street and write them off? Very godly behavior.[1] :P
 1. The people I have known of who did put their under-18 kid out on the street were all strict religious folks who found out their teen was either pregnant or gay. Just emulating god for the greater glory. :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 04:34:42 PM »
When your divine plan can get fucked up by noobs, you might as well not even exist.
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Offline Betelnut

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 06:43:14 PM »
Don't forget, God never told Eve to not eat that fruit.  Only Adam. 

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 06:48:26 PM »
When your divine plan can get fucked up by noobs, you might as well not even exist.

This is awesome. Tee-shirt worthy, really.

"God's plan, pwned by noobs."

lol

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2014, 06:54:08 PM »
Don't forget, God never told Eve to not eat that fruit.  Only Adam.
soooo that's why the snake focused on Eve,I always thought its because eve did not want a man(god)telling her what to do ;D
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Offline ButterFlavoredPam

Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2014, 10:47:36 PM »
The simple fact that the fruit that they were not supposed to eat looked delicious is a SERIOUS error on the part of the author(s).  One wouldn't keep cyanide in a Nestle Quick container.  Iocaine powder (ha ha) would not be stored in a salt shaker.
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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2014, 10:58:11 PM »
where would be the test if you were never told the fruit existed or where it was and it was made rare and concealed and camouflaged in a distant corner of eden on a tiny island in a big swamp infested with crocodiles and once you got there the fruit looked, smelled and tasted horrible.

what was the secret knowledge they gained?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2014, 11:23:33 PM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Just like how it's beneficial if you keep beer & liquor in the house with an alcoholic. If the alcoholic can have enough will power to choose for himself to not drink in a house full of drinks, then it shows he is fully capable of recovery and will most likely never drink again. He will also be very proud of himself and so will his family and friends. If someone just takes the drinks away and says, "you can't drink!" it's only gonna make him wanna drink more. If he's gonna drink in a house of drinks, then he was never gonna quit in the first place.

We all should still be in the garden of Eden right now with the tree just sitting next to us while we all live in paradise. Sadly, we have to wait for it now.

Like I said, simple.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2014, 12:35:41 AM »
the instruction was for the MAN,perhaps if eve just ate the apple God would have been ok
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2014, 12:39:30 AM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Just like how it's beneficial if you keep beer & liquor in the house with an alcoholic. If the alcoholic can have enough will power to choose for himself to not drink in a house full of drinks, then it shows he is fully capable of recovery and will most likely never drink again. He will also be very proud of himself and so will his family and friends. If someone just takes the drinks away and says, "you can't drink!" it's only gonna make him wanna drink more. If he's gonna drink in a house of drinks, then he was never gonna quit in the first place.

We all should still be in the garden of Eden right now with the tree just sitting next to us while we all live in paradise. Sadly, we have to wait for it now.

Like I said, simple.

In the context of paradise, what need is there for "self-control and discipline"?
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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2014, 04:03:19 AM »
Isn't it also interesting that the debil chose to take the form of a phallic symbol to tempt eve?
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Offline Jag

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2014, 08:09:30 AM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Just like how it's beneficial if you keep beer & liquor in the house with an alcoholic. If the alcoholic can have enough will power to choose for himself to not drink in a house full of drinks, then it shows he is fully capable of recovery and will most likely never drink again. He will also be very proud of himself and so will his family and friends. If someone just takes the drinks away and says, "you can't drink!" it's only gonna make him wanna drink more. If he's gonna drink in a house of drinks, then he was never gonna quit in the first place.

We all should still be in the garden of Eden right now with the tree just sitting next to us while we all live in paradise. Sadly, we have to wait for it now.

Like I said, simple.

In the context of paradise, what need is there for "self-control and discipline"?

While we're at it, apparently god knew the serpent was going to tell Eve to eat the apple - and remember, Eve didn't have instructions NOT to do so, only Adam had been told. Or did god somehow NOT know that the serpent was going to further his plan to see if these brand new humans could exercise self-control and discipline?

This line of reasoning makes skep's god still a dickhead, and the "fall" intentional. And using one of those idiotic parenting analogies, this is roughly on par with lighting a bonfire and leaving a 9-month old (old enough to crawl to the pretty bright light) alone by it to see if the baby can exercise the "self-control and discipline" to avoid getting burned.
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Offline xyzzy

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2014, 08:53:05 AM »
Also, don't forget that they ate the fruit from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

No matter how many times I've tried to parse this story into something sensible, I've never been able to get past the point that the pair lacked the concepts to truly understand that what they were embarking on was, somehow, wrong.

Yet, believers will twist and turn and say something along the lines that they disobeyed god; but without the knowledge or right or wrong that there is another setup. And, to think, the entirety of mankind then gets to be punished for ever more, due to something they couldn't have understood until after they had done it.

Anyway, the Walking Talking Snake is surely the hero of the story. A&E didn't die, and if the snake hadn't told them the truth about eating from the tree, we'd still be sitting around, totally ignorant, and blissfully unaware of such delightful "sins" as chocolate and sex.

It's almost as if a wandering group of pre-scientific goat herders made up a simple story to explain things they didn't yet understand. No, it couldn't be... could it.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 08:58:05 AM by xyzzy »
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Offline epidemic

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2014, 09:17:15 AM »
now the whole you will surely die if you eat of the fruit.  This turned out to be true.  Adam and Eve did die.  Of course they were probably always destined to die but it turns out god did not lie.

Of course Adam after wittnessing Eve eat the apple and not drop dead, might well have concluded that what the snake told them was true.  Eve never having been instructed not to eat the apple may well have believed the serpent outright.  Putting this event in human history(mythology) in the proper chronology might well explain why they both ate from the fruit of the tree of knowledge.

Eve ate it on the word of a snake and Adam ate it based upon the aparent untruth (as proven by Eve still breathing) that was told to him.  (900ish years later he died)

Even if they both been told they would die, I wonder if they could fully have understood the implications of death being that nothing died in the garden of eden. 

Finally the claim is often that sin came into the world from the act of eating the fruit.  My guess is that it happend before that because people were sinful to begin with by design because they would entertain the idea of eating the fruit.


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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2014, 09:45:43 AM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Why could yhwh not have started them off with something with less risk involved until they got good at it?  Why did their first attempt at self control have to be a life-or-death test?  Seems rather unfair to me and like they were not set up for success. 

Just like how it's beneficial...

Skep, that does not sound very wise to me.  Every resource I have seen on alcoholism indicates removing alcohol from the home, as well as all bar ware, drinking reminders, souvenier shot glasses, and drinking buddies, are important as it removes temptation.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/alcohol_abuse_alcoholism_help_treatment_prevention.htm
https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/make-a-change/how-to-cut-down/how-to-stop-drinking-alcohol
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/tc/ideas-to-help-you-cut-back-on-or-stop-using-alcohol-topic-overview



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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2014, 10:01:22 AM »
Skep, that does not sound very wise to me.  Every resource I have seen on alcoholism indicates removing alcohol from the home, as well as all bar ware, drinking reminders, souvenier shot glasses, and drinking buddies, are important as it removes temptation.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/alcohol_abuse_alcoholism_help_treatment_prevention.htm
https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/make-a-change/how-to-cut-down/how-to-stop-drinking-alcohol
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/tc/ideas-to-help-you-cut-back-on-or-stop-using-alcohol-topic-overview

Skeptic, 

I don't know what school of thought would determine that exposure is the best way to become a recovering alcoholic.  I guess to make your resistance to alcoholism in your treatment center would also require that the alcoholic drink in moderation.

I am not an alcoholic but I have become quite addicted to tobacco.  I quit once, and over the first few months every time I would go into a store I would see my friend tobacco staring at me, calling me.  After a time I was able to walk through the store and not even see the tobacco counter.  But alas during a moment of weakness I dipped into a friends stash and found myself battling once again with reason vs urge.

Even though for years I was able to walk by my vice, exposure to it eventually lead to a battle with addiction again.  If you are an alcoholic you are best to get rid of all memorabilia and temptation.

Offline stuffin

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2014, 10:07:01 AM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Just like how it's beneficial if you keep beer & liquor in the house with an alcoholic. If the alcoholic can have enough will power to choose for himself to not drink in a house full of drinks, then it shows he is fully capable of recovery and will most likely never drink again. He will also be very proud of himself and so will his family and friends. If someone just takes the drinks away and says, "you can't drink!" it's only gonna make him wanna drink more. If he's gonna drink in a house of drinks, then he was never gonna quit in the first place.

We all should still be in the garden of Eden right now with the tree just sitting next to us while we all live in paradise. Sadly, we have to wait for it now.

Like I said, simple.

So God made Adam and Eve fruitoholics and they failed his fruitoholic test.

Another brilliant anology by Skeptic54768
« Last Edit: July 15, 2014, 10:14:41 AM by stuffin »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2014, 10:32:41 AM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Just like how it's beneficial if you keep beer & liquor in the house with an alcoholic. If the alcoholic can have enough will power to choose for himself to not drink in a house full of drinks, then it shows he is fully capable of recovery and will most likely never drink again. He will also be very proud of himself and so will his family and friends. If someone just takes the drinks away and says, "you can't drink!" it's only gonna make him wanna drink more. If he's gonna drink in a house of drinks, then he was never gonna quit in the first place.
Yeah, this is seriously poor and dangerous advice.  You should feel ashamed of yourself right now.

Quote
We all should still be in the garden of Eden right now with the tree just sitting next to us while we all live in paradise. Sadly, we have to wait for it now.
Because very distant ancestors failed a 1-question test that they were completely unprepared for, by design.  The sad thing is that there are some people who find this state of affairs to be remotely fair.  The sad thing is that there are some people who do not recognize just how much this spits in the face of the concept of 'free will'.  The sad thing is that there are some people who do not recognize just how much this spits in the face of the concept of 'accountability'.  The sad thing is that there are some people who believe that it is possible to make amends for a transgression by sacrificing an innocent that is completely removed from the accountability of the transgression.  The sad thing is that there are some people who want life decisions to be simple, so much so that they're willing to assert that a book is indeed the word of god so that they can think they have the look-up answer key and don't need to go through the exercise of considering how will my actions affect others.

Quote
Like I said, simple.
If you're not thinking about stuff too hard, everything can be simple.  Even simpler if you don't care whether or not the answer is true.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2014, 10:57:27 AM »
This is a simple question. I am very surprised your mother-in-law could not answer it.

It looked delicious because God wanted them to exercise self-control and discipline.

Why could yhwh not have started them off with something with less risk involved until they got good at it?  Why did their first attempt at self control have to be a life-or-death test?  Seems rather unfair to me and like they were not set up for success. 

Just like how it's beneficial...

Skep, that does not sound very wise to me.  Every resource I have seen on alcoholism indicates removing alcohol from the home, as well as all bar ware, drinking reminders, souvenier shot glasses, and drinking buddies, are important as it removes temptation.
http://www.helpguide.org/mental/alcohol_abuse_alcoholism_help_treatment_prevention.htm
https://www.drinkaware.co.uk/make-a-change/how-to-cut-down/how-to-stop-drinking-alcohol
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/addiction/tc/ideas-to-help-you-cut-back-on-or-stop-using-alcohol-topic-overview

Let me ask you 2 questions:

Would you be more impressed with someone's willpower if they never drank a drop in a house filled with liquor?

or

Would you be more impressed with someone's willpower if someone took away all the liquor and forced them sober?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2014, 10:59:45 AM »


Skeptic, 

I don't know what school of thought would determine that exposure is the best way to become a recovering alcoholic.  I guess to make your resistance to alcoholism in your treatment center would also require that the alcoholic drink in moderation.

I am not an alcoholic but I have become quite addicted to tobacco.  I quit once, and over the first few months every time I would go into a store I would see my friend tobacco staring at me, calling me.  After a time I was able to walk through the store and not even see the tobacco counter.  But alas during a moment of weakness I dipped into a friends stash and found myself battling once again with reason vs urge.

Even though for years I was able to walk by my vice, exposure to it eventually lead to a battle with addiction again.  If you are an alcoholic you are best to get rid of all memorabilia and temptation.

I admire your efforts to get off tobacco. Tobacco can cause cancer. if you are going to smoke something, I say stick with the reefer. In moderation, it can help great with spirituality. Abusing it and putting it ahead of God is a sin though.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline screwtape

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2014, 11:04:14 AM »
Let me ask you 2 questions:

Impressing me is not the point.  Staying sober is.  Which way is more likely to have success?

You failed to address my points.  You also seem to imply that Eve and her slow witted mate were meant to "impress" yhwh.  I thought the point was to have self control.  And how does one impress the omnipotent creator of all being who says in Job that nothing we do is impressive?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2014, 11:40:28 AM »
Let me ask you 2 questions:

Impressing me is not the point.  Staying sober is.  Which way is more likely to have success?

You failed to address my points.  You also seem to imply that Eve and her slow witted mate were meant to "impress" yhwh.  I thought the point was to have self control.  And how does one impress the omnipotent creator of all being who says in Job that nothing we do is impressive?

it's the same reason a parent tells the child "no cookies before dinner" yet leaves the cookies on the kitchen counter. The parent wants the child to refuse the cookies on his/her own.

Sure, the parent could take the cookies away and hide them somewhere, but anyone can do that. That isn't teaching jack diddly.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Airyaman

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2014, 11:43:45 AM »
And if the kid eats the cookies, he gets tossed out of the home forever.
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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2014, 11:55:47 AM »
Let me ask you 2 questions:

Impressing me is not the point.  Staying sober is.  Which way is more likely to have success?

You failed to address my points.  You also seem to imply that Eve and her slow witted mate were meant to "impress" yhwh.  I thought the point was to have self control.  And how does one impress the omnipotent creator of all being who says in Job that nothing we do is impressive?

it's the same reason a parent tells the child "no cookies before dinner" yet leaves the cookies on the kitchen counter. The parent wants the child to refuse the cookies on his/her own.

Sure, the parent could take the cookies away and hide them somewhere, but anyone can do that. That isn't teaching jack diddly.

Yet again, you're missing the point.

A mother tells the kids not to eat the cookie. If they do, they'll be punished. The kids, not fully able to grasp the concept of the punishment, takes a cookie. Mom gets pissed and the kids are punished (sit in the corner, no TV before bed, whatever...) The kids now understand the concept of punishment. If they do something mom tells them not to do, there'll be consequences.

God puts a tree of fruit in the garden and tells Adam not to eat it or he will die. Adam has never witnessed death. HE HAS NO IDEA WHAT THAT MEANS! He eats the apple after seeing nothing has happened to Eve. God punishes them, even though DEATH wasn't a concept they were familiar with. And what a punishment! God's a little heavy handed, huh?

Skeptic - do you kill your children when they disobey you, or do you sit down and explain why they're being punished and use it as a teaching opportunity? Because if you do, you're far more compassionate than the monster you serve.
 
One more thing!!

Note how the story relates Adam and Eve realizing they were naked after they had both consumed it. Why is this? I mean, Eve ate the fruit and then offered it to Adam. As soon as she bit into the apple, she should have been aware of the fact that they were both naked. Why didn't she say anything? Why didn't Adam notice a change in her behaviour while she was offering him the rest of the fruit?

Did they BOTH have to eat the fruit for the effect to take hold?

E.
'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Offline Dante

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2014, 12:30:15 PM »
Sure, the parent could take the cookies away and hide them somewhere, but anyone can do that. That isn't teaching jack diddly.

Your god wasn't looking for a teaching moment. He was looking for blind obedience, if the story is to be believed.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline epidemic

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2014, 01:10:46 PM »
Let me ask you 2 questions:

Impressing me is not the point.  Staying sober is.  Which way is more likely to have success?

You failed to address my points.  You also seem to imply that Eve and her slow witted mate were meant to "impress" yhwh.  I thought the point was to have self control.  And how does one impress the omnipotent creator of all being who says in Job that nothing we do is impressive?

it's the same reason a parent tells the child "no cookies before dinner" yet leaves the cookies on the kitchen counter. The parent wants the child to refuse the cookies on his/her own.

Sure, the parent could take the cookies away and hide them somewhere, but anyone can do that. That isn't teaching jack diddly.

As stated a million times before on this site and around the world.  a compassionate father does not shun his kids or kill them because they disobey.  Even after many defiant behaviors.  A punishment is a teaching opportunity.   Where some discomfort is applied to run home that disobediance will not be tollerated.  It usually starts small and builds. 

It almost never results in shunning unless it becomes a serious repeated problem or a danger to others in the family.  But before bannishment one usually gives it the old college try.

A rational story for the garden of Eden would have been Adam don't eat the fruit, adam eats it, god gives him cramps, explosive diarhea for 1000 years (btw clean up all the elephant crap in eden) and says that is what happens when you don't listen to me.  Then god produced a new enticing fruit and says don't eat this fruit because it will be worse than 1000 year cramps and diarhea and I will make you clean up all the animal poo.   Adam eats the fruit again and god says if you do this one more time, I am done with you, you will be forced out of eden and will have to slave like I made you clean poo but it will be for the rest of your life and you will die.   let me show you what death is,  and god kills adams favorite dinosaur and lets it rot.

hopefully god would give more than 3 punishments for small transgressions but at least he framed out the cause and effect, and Adam now knows that he will be held accountable.  Hopefully god would also inform Adam that there is a talking serpent that lies to try and get adam in trouble and in part this serpent was responsible for the previous two punishments.  God says to Adam "You should probably should not talk to the serpent he is a bad influence and I cursed him for all eternity in my rash youth for far less than your repeated defiance."

Offline Aaron123

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Re: A question about Adam, Eve, and the "apple".
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2014, 01:25:51 PM »
And if the kid eats the cookies, he gets tossed out of the home forever.

Don't forget, the grandkids also gets punished, and the great-grandkids, and every generations after that.

All for a couple of cookies.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.