Author Topic: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...  (Read 1373 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #87 on: July 13, 2014, 07:52:37 PM »
I gave you a plethora of Bible verses where God orders his followers to kill.... you choose to say in the defense of the order,"Nowhere does he order the death of ALL non believers" The ordering of one death by an ommni-present being is one too many. He(God) is too FUCKING stupid to figure out how to turn non-believers into believers. Even(as per the story) when he kills all but 7 people he fails. Do you think when it fails to work(killing) the first time it will work again?

 If you are too inept and moronic to realize that killing people failed the first time and need to "try it again" to get the respect you"demand" rather than earn,it is obvious you are too FUCKING stupid to be considered a god.

 This "god"is a tyrant,a megalomaniac and is too inept to gain followers,so he kills in a jealous rage when he can't get what he wants. He has the intelligence of a 11 year old child,but that's still better than the average mental age of 6 his followers have.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #88 on: July 13, 2014, 09:10:36 PM »
You and I have nothing further to discuss. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #89 on: July 13, 2014, 09:23:14 PM »
You and I have nothing further to discuss.
yes I guess when you look at the megalomaniac called god with a rational mind,you kind of feel queasy ... Maybe even a little disgusted with yourself that you can uphold the standards of such a sick and twisted deity. The truth hurts,so run away now and let the big boys talk
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #90 on: July 13, 2014, 09:33:06 PM »
I'm not running away.  You've just made it clear you don't want to talk to me.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #91 on: July 13, 2014, 09:41:56 PM »
So I see from other conversations on here when someone demands an answer,we clearly don't want to talk to you. Not the case,we are sick of you being a liar for the God you believe in.

 Now run away like you have threatened to do in the past. If you don't want to answer for your god,good,don't. But don't expect me,or other like minded non theists to praise a murderous megalomaniac,who's only answer is to kill or imprison(hell)non followers in order to gain respect from those who believe
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #92 on: July 13, 2014, 09:47:49 PM »
You gave no question to answer.  You only gave your hateful opinion that nobody asked for.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #93 on: July 13, 2014, 09:50:00 PM »
The bible verses  about god commanding killing was a question I asked,and you said I provided no passages,why do you lie?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #94 on: July 13, 2014, 09:53:57 PM »
WAS IT THE PLAN TO KILL ALL BUT 7 PEOPLE AND STILL HAVE SATAN RULE THE PLANET?

No, that was not the appointed time to remove Satan. 

"For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay." (Hab 2:3)
so God then killed for no reason,thanks for playing,god is a mindless murderer
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #95 on: July 13, 2014, 09:55:59 PM »
So all the passages in the OT where God commands tribes to rape and pillage are to be rewarded for their actions JST?
here is the question about god commanding murder,you asked for passages
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #96 on: July 13, 2014, 09:56:12 PM »
Quote from: Jag
Oh please - this is as much a non-answer as your previous post. Don't bother, it's clear that a simple answer is too much to expect, no matter how simple the fricking question is.

The answer was very simple and straightforward.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:06:15 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #97 on: July 13, 2014, 09:56:51 PM »
Which once again amounts to "love me, or else" - which is the freaking antithesis of free will.

You are mistaken.  Everyone is free to do whatever they want with their time on this earth, only don't expect to be rewarded for bad behavior.

Quote
On an entirely different note, and just to satisfy my own curiosity - Do you tally your time here as witnessing hours? I'm not being antagonistic, but I don't hang out on theist websites and can't figure out why committed theists come here, honestly. Fence sitters? Sure. True-blue believers? I don't even kind of get it.

No I do not.  Why is it surprising that a Christian would spend time on this forum?
Here is a list where the Bible commands killing,if a follower of the OT goes against the commandment to murder at God's command is it considered "reward for bad behaviour"?

http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
so I provided passages
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #98 on: July 13, 2014, 09:57:58 PM »
Oh please - this is as much a non-answer as your previous post. Don't bother, it's clear that a simple answer is too much to expect, no matter how simple the fricking question is.

The answer was very simple and straightforward.
thats NOT my quote
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 09:59:58 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2014, 10:05:24 PM »
Really? So what you're saying is that every single person or a different (or no) faith, regardless of age or physical fitness, is a threat to the followers of the one true god, and that threat can only be handled by killing all of them, even though Jehovah has unlimited power and can deal with them with far better and more humane ways?

No that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying he has killed to protect his people, but not in all circumstances.

...

So,  an omniscient,  omnipotent,  omnipresent God, whose intellectual design originates the breath of the universe and life itself, needs to resort to killing in order to protect his people in some circumstances? His intellectual differentiation and capabilities become so narrowed that protection requires him to kill? How can he then be regarded to be better than a human sinner who in some circumstances could decide to do the same to protect someone? Especially when humans are not such an intelligent designer with omni potency like the 'Almighty God'..
The fact that his solution to a such a paramount problem is so human, shows that God itself seems limited in his craftiness to solve and protect his interests in a more elegant and perhaps loving/divine way, as that is how most Christians consider their God to be; loving and merciful.
Yet, he chooses to take the sinners approach and solves his maintenance problem through killing using his free will. Yet when humans do it; it's sin.. Sounds quite hypocritical.. Especially if humans are made in his image..

What is the point of keeping the wicked around?  Is there some benefit to it?  If there is not then getting rid of them is the best option.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2014, 10:06:33 PM »
Oh please - this is as much a non-answer as your previous post. Don't bother, it's clear that a simple answer is too much to expect, no matter how simple the fricking question is.

The answer was very simple and straightforward.
thats NOT my quote

Corrected.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2014, 10:08:02 PM »
So non believers and people of other faiths are wicked,what about believers who don't conform to your beliefs?why kill true believers along with the wicked.....unless of course no true believers existed.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:11:51 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #102 on: July 13, 2014, 10:12:21 PM »
Oh please - this is as much a non-answer as your previous post. Don't bother, it's clear that a simple answer is too much to expect, no matter how simple the fricking question is.

The answer was very simple and straightforward.
thats NOT my quote

Corrected.
how exactly
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #103 on: July 13, 2014, 10:16:01 PM »
So non believers and people of other faiths are wicked,what about believers who don't conform to your beliefs?

You are the one saying they are, not me.  When Jehovah punished the world in Noah's day he punished them for their violence.  He didn't say, "because people don't believe in me I'm going to punish them."
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #104 on: July 13, 2014, 10:17:29 PM »
Oh please - this is as much a non-answer as your previous post. Don't bother, it's clear that a simple answer is too much to expect, no matter how simple the fricking question is.

The answer was very simple and straightforward.
thats NOT my quote

Corrected.
how exactly

I edited my post.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #105 on: July 13, 2014, 10:26:44 PM »
So non believers and people of other faiths are wicked,what about believers who don't conform to your beliefs?

You are the one saying they are, not me.  When Jehovah punished the world in Noah's day he punished them for their violence.  He didn't say, "because people don't believe in me I'm going to punish them."
you fail to understand the question,it does not matter why God killed,it is the who god killed that is important. God killing.the wicked and sparing believers(what god sees as wicked) would make some sense.  To kill all but seven and still have wickedness(from the 7 survivors I assume) makes God a psychopath at best. If you are killing to eliminate wickedness,do the job right the first time or you are just murdering your(god) subjects for the sake of murder,without a reason or a point.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 10:28:58 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Astreja

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #106 on: July 14, 2014, 12:45:37 AM »
What is the point of keeping the wicked around?  Is there some benefit to it?  If there is not then getting rid of them is the best option.

No, it is not the "best option."  It is the last resort of an unimaginative god.  Why kill someone, if you have the power to transport him elsewhere so that he can live out his life without harming the non-wicked?  Why kill someone, if you have the ability to read his mind and find out the motivation for his wickedness, and throw appropriate experiences his way so that he can overcome the wickedness?  Why kill someone, if you can stealthily intervene to cause his wicked acts to fail?

This all supposes that Yahweh's victims were wicked, of course.  We have no corroborating evidence to confirm the Biblical claims, and quite frankly I'm not going to give the benefit of a doubt to a book that can't get past Chapter 3 without a Talking Snake™ gumming up the works.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #107 on: July 14, 2014, 01:21:18 AM »
No, it is not the "best option."  It is the last resort of an unimaginative god.  Why kill someone, if you have the power to transport him elsewhere so that he can live out his life without harming the non-wicked?  Why kill someone, if you have the ability to read his mind and find out the motivation for his wickedness, and throw appropriate experiences his way so that he can overcome the wickedness?  Why kill someone, if you can stealthily intervene to cause his wicked acts to fail?

This all supposes that Yahweh's victims were wicked, of course.  We have no corroborating evidence to confirm the Biblical claims, and quite frankly I'm not going to give the benefit of a doubt to a book that can't get past Chapter 3 without a Talking Snake™ gumming up the works.

Allow me to jump in.

Very interesting thoughts, I must say.

However, if a person does not care about you, doesn't give you thanks for the world he/she lives in, why should God keep them around anywhere? Then God would be a pushover, and nobody has respect for pushovers. Do whatever you want and God will keep catering to you. No self-respecting parent would ever do such a thing. A parent still loves his child and has power over them. Just because God has more love and more power doesn't change this simple fact.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #108 on: July 14, 2014, 01:42:31 AM »
Very interesting thoughts, I must say.

However, if a person does not care about you, doesn't give you thanks for the world he/she lives in, why should God keep them around anywhere? Then God would be a pushover, and nobody has respect for pushovers. Do whatever you want and God will keep catering to you. No self-respecting parent would ever do such a thing. A parent still loves his child and has power over them. Just because God has more love and more power doesn't change this simple fact.

Giving an unruly "child" options, rather than a cosmic spanking, shows restraint, self-control and maturity rather than a sense of entitlement.  Slaying someone with a flood or lightning bolt or other exhibition of divine power is roughly equivalent to a parent losing it, reaching for his belt, and beating his child to death.

I also think that most loving parents would rather indulge their child's whims than kill them, but fortunately there are many options between those two extremes.

What these "wrath of God" stories tell Me is that they were written in an era of comparatively simple morality, in societies that valued the rights of the tribe over the rights of the individual, and that the people in charge thought nothing of quickly disposing of dissidents in order to preserve the status quo.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #109 on: July 14, 2014, 04:28:16 AM »
What is the point of keeping the wicked around?  Is there some benefit to it?  If there is not then getting rid of them is the best option.

"Death is the solution to all problems. No man, no problem." Joseph Stalin

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Online Azdgari

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #110 on: July 14, 2014, 07:11:58 AM »
However, if a person does not care about you, doesn't give you thanks for the world he/she lives in, why should God keep them around anywhere? Then God would be a pushover, and nobody has respect for pushovers. Do whatever you want and God will keep catering to you. No self-respecting parent would ever do such a thing. A parent still loves his child and has power over them. Just because God has more love and more power doesn't change this simple fact.

When is it moral and appropriate for a parent to kill his or her children in punishment for their deeds?

Would you kill your children under the circumstances you describe?
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Offline epidemic

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #111 on: July 14, 2014, 09:32:21 AM »
Does that mean if i chose milk then that choice of milk was already planned and the outcome known in advance??

Not necessarily. Just that it won't affect god's plan in the slightest. Of course, to allow for an omniscient god, you have to make up yet another excuse. Something like "Yes, god knew the outcome, but it wasn't predetermined. Just because he knew the outcome doesn't mean you couldn't have chosen something else. He just knew what you were going to choose.", which is bullshit.

Being that god is Omnipotent, and theoretically Omnicient,  he set forth the machine that is the universe, that resulted in my creation against my will, knowing I would drink that glass of milk.  If god being all powerful and all knowing built a machine knowing that it would result in me drinking from the milk jug this morning at 6:36 AM Eastern Standard Time then I am not all that sure that I truely had any free will.  The excuse that he knows me really well is the understatement of all time.  He set forth before me all information I would be exposed to so my programmed decision was pre-ordained. 


Offline YRM_DM

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #112 on: July 14, 2014, 10:34:28 AM »
Gotta say I always love the "God is a parent" analogy and his punishment for his children he loves is to burn them forever for a finite crime... but he's supposedly a better parent than we are?

Here's the thing... if god knows all the hairs on your head and days of your life and has a special plan for you and everything happens according to god's plan and will be used for his greater glory.

Does that mean abortions were all part of god's plan?  He knew the hairs on those fetus head and days of their life and had a special plan for them?

Did free will screw up God's plan?  Did he then change his plan?  Was he surprised when a baby he'd planned to be president was aborted or did he know and plan for it in advance?

How did God end up taking "bad free will" and turn it to "the greater good" while still keeping to his plan in those cases?

And if the aborting mothers were just carrying out god's plan, how could they be wrong to do it?   If God's plan is good, how can it factor in things like Hitler and the Holocaust?   Or is God happy about that because it so closely mirrored what he did in Noah's flood?

Why not put the tree of knowledge in a spot in the Garden of Eden too hard to reach?  Why park your two people under it, tell them not to eat it, and then "go away for a while"?   Did he have grocery shopping to do?   I thought god was everywhere at once?

La la la...

There's simply no way that all these contradictions can exist in a being.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #113 on: July 14, 2014, 10:36:24 AM »
If the final answer is some version of this...

"It's ok that nothing about god or his plan makes any sense at all because we can't understand the mind of god."

That's basically admitting that you lost the argument, and you have no answers, and the Bible gives you no answers to multiple, very valid, very repeatable questions.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Online jdawg70

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #114 on: July 14, 2014, 10:40:00 AM »
No self-respecting parent would ever do such a thing. A parent still loves his child and has power over them. Just because God has more love and more power doesn't change this simple fact.

I really, really wish you'd quit with the damn parent analogies.  They don't work, it's been explained to you why they don't work, and they will continue to not work from now until the end of days.

Do you know how frustrating it is when you try to explain something over and over again, only to have it still not sink in with people?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #115 on: July 14, 2014, 10:54:27 AM »
I really, really wish you'd quit with the damn parent analogies.  They don't work, it's been explained to you why they don't work, and they will continue to not work from now until the end of days.

the parent analogies are excellent analogies because parents have love for their child and power over their child. sometimes the child has to do things they hate because "parent knows best."

Just because God is all-loving and all-powerful doesn't change this in any way.

Parents = loving and powerful
God = all-loving and all-powerful

It is now up to the atheists to explain why having more love and more power somehow makes the analogy invalid.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)