Author Topic: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...  (Read 1353 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #58 on: July 13, 2014, 03:16:45 PM »
 Murdering 99% of the worlds population so you can remain king over the remaining 1% is pure insanity,good thing its also pure fiction
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #59 on: July 13, 2014, 03:20:05 PM »
1) Christians are here to demonstrate the benefits of submitting to Jehovah's guidance.

2) I hope this has been cleared up for you.

3) Consider human history. 

1) Epic failure

2) yep, tell Yahweh, no thanks. (Who is this demon Jehovah anyway. And Joshua is not pleased at being called Jesus and being called a Christian.)

3) don't you just miss the Dark Ages
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Offline One Above All

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #60 on: July 13, 2014, 03:20:34 PM »
Murdering 99% of the worlds population so you can remain king over the remaining 1% is pure insanity,good thing its also pure fiction

The problem is the idiots who believe in that fiction.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jag

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #61 on: July 13, 2014, 03:25:12 PM »
Which once again amounts to "love me, or else" - which is the freaking antithesis of free will.

You are mistaken.  Everyone is free to do whatever they want with their time on this earth, only don't expect to be rewarded for bad behavior.

I don't. And you shouldn't expect to be rewarded for good behavior either. Neither of us will be disappointed that way.

On an entirely different note, and just to satisfy my own curiosity - Do you tally your time here as witnessing hours? I'm not being antagonistic, but I don't hang out on theist websites and can't figure out why committed theists come here, honestly. Fence sitters? Sure. True-blue believers? I don't even kind of get it.

No I do not.  Why is it surprising that a Christian would spend time on this forum?

I thought I explained this in my original post - but in case it was unclear, I can't see any purpose to it. The reasons a theist might have for hanging out on an atheist forum may be clear to the theist, but they aren't clear to me. I honestly don't know how else to answer that question. If you aren't willing to answer me, that's fine, but don't post a non-answer please. It's just a matter of curiosity to me.

edit: formatting and clarity
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 03:28:45 PM by Jag »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #62 on: July 13, 2014, 03:25:16 PM »
Really? So what you're saying is that every single person or a different (or no) faith, regardless of age or physical fitness, is a threat to the followers of the one true god, and that threat can only be handled by killing all of them, even though Jehovah has unlimited power and can deal with them with far better and more humane ways?

No that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying he has killed to protect his people, but not in all circumstances.

Quote
Wow. So not only are non-Jehovah worshipers "opposers", we're also oppressors and genociders. Tell me, did Jehovah give you more magical powers aside from being able to know what was on the minds of most of the planet?

I didn't say that either.

Quote
What gives him the right to murder/slaughter close to 99% of the world's population? That is, commit genocide? You know what we call "good christians" who try something like that? Evil psychopathic bastards.

Begging the question.

Stop putting words in my mouth.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #63 on: July 13, 2014, 03:27:30 PM »
Murdering 99% of the worlds population so you can remain king over the remaining 1% is pure insanity,good thing its also pure fiction

The problem is the idiots who believe in that fiction.
And the only way this action will be accomplished is if followers take matters into their own hands and start killing all non-believers. They will have to take action,God sure in the hell wont(or hasn't)
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #64 on: July 13, 2014, 03:33:46 PM »
To bad when God killed all non-believers in the flood it did not work either,,,, so why will it work for the final kingdom (here on earth as is the JW belief) you think because they have a king they will not have conflict? The JW theology is the dead will rise from the graves and live in a kingdom,so free will,is it to exist? or are they all Jesus zombies?

 with only 7 people left after the flood why did it fail? Did God plan it that way?
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 03:35:50 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #65 on: July 13, 2014, 03:41:24 PM »
If Jehovah kills opposers to protect his people it is not murder. 

A demon with limited imagination.

I am a reasonable person and I can see it.

You are a reasonable person, working for a reasonable mafia, headed by a reasonable demon. Those are the benefits of religion. Does it come with a downside?
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #66 on: July 13, 2014, 03:44:50 PM »
I don't. And you shouldn't expect to be rewarded for good behavior either. Neither of us will be disappointed that way.

I don't.  I expect to reap what I have sown.

Quote
I thought I explained this in my original post - but in case it was unclear, I can't see any purpose to it. The reasons a theist might have for hanging out on an atheist forum may be clear to the theist, but they aren't clear to me. I honestly don't know how else to answer that question. If you aren't willing to answer me, that's fine, but don't post a non-answer please. It's just a matter of curiosity to me.

I don't like this sort of question because I don't like talking about myself.  Some people couldn't understand why Christ hung out with sinners and tax collectors, but he did.  Why?  Because it was Jehovah's will.  Christ loved both God as his neighbors.  This is the pattern I choose to follow.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #67 on: July 13, 2014, 03:49:59 PM »
 You expect to be rewarded which in itself appears to be sinful in nature
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #68 on: July 13, 2014, 03:51:29 PM »
To bad when God killed all non-believers in the flood it did not work either,,,, so why will it work for the final kingdom (here on earth as is the JW belief) you think because they have a king they will not have conflict? The JW theology is the dead will rise from the graves and live in a kingdom,so free will,is it to exist? or are they all Jesus zombies?

 with only 7 people left after the flood why did it fail? Did God plan it that way?

What didn't work?

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #69 on: July 13, 2014, 03:54:20 PM »
WAS IT THE PLAN TO KILL ALL BUT 7 PEOPLE AND STILL HAVE SATAN RULE THE PLANET?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #70 on: July 13, 2014, 03:55:52 PM »
I expect to reap what I have sown.

You have sown ignorance and stupidity.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #71 on: July 13, 2014, 03:58:05 PM »
You expect to be rewarded which in itself appears to be sinful in nature

Serving Jehovah is it's own reward.  Serving Jehovah is not a means to and end.  It is itself the end.  If anything, a reward is a means to that end.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #72 on: July 13, 2014, 04:01:02 PM »
WAS IT THE PLAN TO KILL ALL BUT 7 PEOPLE AND STILL HAVE SATAN RULE THE PLANET?

No, that was not the appointed time to remove Satan. 

"For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay." (Hab 2:3)
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #73 on: July 13, 2014, 04:04:00 PM »
Which commandment says God will not kill?

After the mass murder of Noah's flood, Yahweh promises not to kill people with another flood, then in exodus he kills people with an even bigger flood "greater than any since the foundation".

What a trustworthy demon this Jehovah is!
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2014, 04:06:28 PM »
No, that was not the appointed time to remove Satan. 

"For the revelation awaits an appointed time; it speaks of the end and will not prove false. Though it linger, wait for it; it will certainly come and will not delay." (Hab 2:3)

There has been a bit of a delay hasn't there? It is lucky he was not waiting for a bus.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #75 on: July 13, 2014, 04:08:52 PM »
No that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying he has killed to protect his people, but not in all circumstances.

In the Bible, he orders the murder of all non-believers, regardless of age or physical condition. Are you saying his word is flawed?

I didn't say that either.

Yes you did. You spoke of us as if we'd wipe you all out. That makes us oppressors and genociders. Don't lie.

Begging the question.

What question? Didn't Jehovah flood the entire planet, killing everything save for 7 people and two of every kind of animal?

Stop putting words in my mouth.

Stop lying about your words.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #76 on: July 13, 2014, 04:45:32 PM »
In the Bible, he orders the murder of all non-believers, regardless of age or physical condition. Are you saying his word is flawed?

Chapter and verse?

Quote
Yes you did. You spoke of us as if we'd wipe you all out. That makes us oppressors and genociders. Don't lie.

No I didn't.  I was speaking in reference to things that have occured in the Hebrew scriptures.

Quote
What question? Didn't Jehovah flood the entire planet, killing everything save for 7 people and two of every kind of animal?

My mistake.  I thought you were talking about in the future.  To answer the question, it's because they were all corrupt and violent.  That gives him the right.  It is his earth.  If he does not want it ruined by violence that is his right.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #77 on: July 13, 2014, 04:54:51 PM »
Chapter and verse?

12 Monkeys already linked you to a page full of chapters and verses from the Bible regarding murder. Here: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

No I didn't.  I was speaking in reference to things that have occured in the Hebrew scriptures.

I must've been confused due to the lack of usage of a perfectWiki verb form. Also because you were using present tense in the sentence just prior to that one, which said that Jehovah kills people who are a threat to "his people".

My mistake.  I thought you were talking about in the future.  To answer the question, it's because they were all corrupt and violent.  That gives him the right.  It is his earth.  If he does not want it ruined by violence that is his right.

Prove that it is his earth. Then prove that ownership somehow gives someone unlimited rights over their property.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jag

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #78 on: July 13, 2014, 05:01:07 PM »
I don't. And you shouldn't expect to be rewarded for good behavior either. Neither of us will be disappointed that way.

I don't.  I expect to reap what I have sown.

That's nice. I expect to be dead, and thus unable to have an opinion.

Quote
Quote
I thought I explained this in my original post - but in case it was unclear, I can't see any purpose to it. The reasons a theist might have for hanging out on an atheist forum may be clear to the theist, but they aren't clear to me. I honestly don't know how else to answer that question. If you aren't willing to answer me, that's fine, but don't post a non-answer please. It's just a matter of curiosity to me.
Quote
I don't like this sort of question because I don't like talking about myself.
Then just say so. Because this:

Quote
<snipping the somewhat obnoxious preachiness you posted here, since it doesn't pertain>

...is exactly what I just asked you not to do. Did you miss the part where I explicitly asked you not to post a non-answer? I bolded it for you above.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #79 on: July 13, 2014, 05:04:55 PM »
12 Monkeys already linked you to a page full of chapters and verses from the Bible regarding murder. Here: http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm

Nowhere does he order the death of all unbelievers.

Quote
Prove that it is his earth. Then prove that ownership somehow gives someone unlimited rights over their property.

We're already operating under the assumption that God exists and has a "plan".  Therefore unless he expressly gives it away, the earth belongs to him.

And he has a right to protect his creation because he says he does.  Who else is going to assign him rights?
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #80 on: July 13, 2014, 05:10:11 PM »
That's nice. I expect to be dead, and thus unable to have an opinion.

You don't have to wait until you're dead to reap what you sow.

Quote
...is exactly what I just asked you not to do. Did you miss the part where I explicitly asked you not to post a non-answer? I bolded it for you above.

I thought the answer would be sufficient.  I come here because it sometimes brings me enjoyment. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #81 on: July 13, 2014, 05:10:47 PM »
Nowhere does he order the death of all unbelievers.

I will now forever label you a liar. I'll be sure to smite you as soon as I am able for this and every other lie you tell.
Quote from: 2 Chronicles 15:12-13
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

We're already operating under the assumption that God exists and has a "plan".  Therefore unless he expressly gives it away, the earth belongs to him.

Non-sequitur. I have a plan for myself that involves others - several, in fact. Does that mean that others belong to me?

And he has a right to protect his creation because he says he does.  Who else is going to assign him rights?

1: That's not what I asked. I asked what gave him unlimited rights over his property.
2: Saying something doesn't make it true. If I say I have the right to your wife (or whatever), does that make it so? No, it does not.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #82 on: July 13, 2014, 05:20:21 PM »
I will now forever label you a liar. I'll be sure to smite you as soon as I am able for this and every other lie you tell.

I asked for chapter and verse.  You have failed to provide it.

Quote
Non-sequitur. I have a plan for myself that involves others - several, in fact. Does that mean that others belong to me?

You get to decide who lives on your property.  So does Jehovah.

Quote
1: That's not what I asked. I asked what gave him unlimited rights over his property.

It is his by default.  Any limits would have to be self-imposed.

Quote
2: Saying something doesn't make it true. If I say I have the right to your wife (or whatever), does that make it so? No, it does not.

No comparison.  You have the right to protect your family.



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #83 on: July 13, 2014, 05:26:40 PM »
I asked for chapter and verse.  You have failed to provide it.

Another lie. Re-read my post; particularly the quote just underneath where I called your bullshit/lie.

You get to decide who lives on your property.  So does Jehovah.

But I don't get to kill them if they decide to not worship me and give me whatever I want. If I tried to, I'd go to jail.

It is his by default.  Any limits would have to be self-imposed.

A priori assumptions do wonders for your argument...
Why is it his by default?

No comparison.  You have the right to protect your family.

And I say I have the right to your wife. So hand her over or suffer my wrath. If you don't have a wife, your sister(s) and/or cousin(s) will do.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline wow

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #84 on: July 13, 2014, 06:04:42 PM »
Really? So what you're saying is that every single person or a different (or no) faith, regardless of age or physical fitness, is a threat to the followers of the one true god, and that threat can only be handled by killing all of them, even though Jehovah has unlimited power and can deal with them with far better and more humane ways?

No that's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying he has killed to protect his people, but not in all circumstances.

...

So,  an omniscient,  omnipotent,  omnipresent God, whose intellectual design originates the breath of the universe and life itself, needs to resort to killing in order to protect his people in some circumstances? His intellectual differentiation and capabilities become so narrowed that protection requires him to kill? How can he then be regarded to be better than a human sinner who in some circumstances could decide to do the same to protect someone? Especially when humans are not such an intelligent designer with omni potency like the 'Almighty God'..
The fact that his solution to a such a paramount problem is so human, shows that God itself seems limited in his craftiness to solve and protect his interests in a more elegant and perhaps loving/divine way, as that is how most Christians consider their God to be; loving and merciful.
Yet, he chooses to take the sinners approach and solves his maintenance problem through killing using his free will. Yet when humans do it; it's sin.. Sounds quite hypocritical.. Especially if humans are made in his image..
« Last Edit: July 13, 2014, 06:14:03 PM by wow »

Offline Jag

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #85 on: July 13, 2014, 06:27:57 PM »
That's nice. I expect to be dead, and thus unable to have an opinion.

You don't have to wait until you're dead to reap what you sow.
Is there a point to your platitudes? I'm already reaping what I have sown, yes. As are you, as is everyone else too. And.....?

Quote
I thought the answer would be sufficient.

Then you didn't bother to read what I wrote.

Quote
I come here because it sometimes brings me enjoyment.

Oh please - this is as much a non-answer as your previous post. Don't bother, it's clear that a simple answer is too much to expect, no matter how simple the fricking question is.

And you wonder why I wonder why you post here.  :o
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: can someone explain free will V gods plan again...
« Reply #86 on: July 13, 2014, 07:33:32 PM »
You expect to be rewarded which in itself appears to be sinful in nature

Serving Jehovah is it's own reward.  Serving Jehovah is not a means to and end.  It is itself the end.  If anything, a reward is a means to that end.
yes but do you expect to be receiving this "award" and would you be shocked if you did not?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)