Author Topic: If the Universe was Created  (Read 803 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2014, 11:55:43 AM »
If I were a god...
Make no humans so no problems ever arise. No suffering no nothing. Poof myself out of existence so nothing ever needs to nor happens. No problems, no nothing.

Now, how would that be fair to the people who WANT to worship God and be with Him for eternity?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2014, 01:46:45 PM »
If I were a god...
Make no humans so no problems ever arise. No suffering no nothing. Poof myself out of existence so nothing ever needs to nor happens. No problems, no nothing.

Now, how would that be fair to the people who WANT to worship God and be with Him for eternity?
They wouldn't exist in the first place to actaully be missing something that they then would WANT if they existed.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #31 on: July 11, 2014, 01:51:28 PM »
If I were a god...
Make no humans so no problems ever arise. No suffering no nothing. Poof myself out of existence so nothing ever needs to nor happens. No problems, no nothing.

Now, how would that be fair to the people who WANT to worship God and be with Him for eternity?

Are you implying that god is currently being unfair to all of the floborts that want to worship and be with him for all eternity?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jetson

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #32 on: July 11, 2014, 10:02:58 PM »
Yes, it is atheists pointing out the variety of ways to create an enjoyable universe.

That implies that this one stinks.

This one has its problems - the main one being all of the humans who make it their personal goal to push their beliefs onto everyone around them. Imagine a universe where people are free to believe whatever they want, and they are never bothered by others who don't have the same beliefs. The main goal of atheist activism, in my opinion, is to get the believers to STFU and get on with their praying and bending over for YHWH, and leave the rest of the world the hell alone.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #33 on: July 11, 2014, 10:05:21 PM »

This one has its problems - the main one being all of the humans who make it their personal goal to push their beliefs onto everyone around them. Imagine a universe where people are free to believe whatever they want, and they are never bothered by others who don't have the same beliefs. The main goal of atheist activism, in my opinion, is to get the believers to STFU and get on with their praying and bending over for YHWH, and leave the rest of the world the hell alone.

Aha! But, here comes the kicker.

We believe that Jesus Christ Himself commanded us to go out and tell people about Jesus and Christianity. Telling us to ignore that and leave people alone is telling us to ignore our religion, which is also wrong.

So you can't say "Go believe what you want" and then say "but you can't tell us about Jesus, even if that's what you believe."

Kind of unfair, isn't it?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #34 on: July 13, 2014, 08:31:52 PM »
We believe that Jesus Christ Himself commanded us to go out and tell people about Jesus and Christianity. Telling us to ignore that and leave people alone is telling us to ignore our religion, which is also wrong.

So you can't say "Go believe what you want" and then say "but you can't tell us about Jesus, even if that's what you believe."

Kind of unfair, isn't it?

There is the problem. I would rather not have to learn about the NT and the OT and I would rather not have to talk about it and debate it, but religious people won't leave me alone. And when I disagree with what they say, and all the radio, TV, and magazines which are forced upon me, when I dare to speak with my one little voice, they get angry.

They don't want their delusions destroyed by facts.

They say I am Satan or that I am working for Satan, they stalk me with cameras, and maybe I am part of an Illuminati plot to take over the world, and what is worst of all, they actually post bibles to my house as though I have never seen one before. The local priest probably thinks I am a religious charity worker giving away free bibles. Who wants a Book of Mormon? I can't give those away even for free. They go in the bin. If people want to send me this kind of thing, they could at least send something useful about the dark arts so that I could cast a few magic spells and visit Harry Potter.

Kind of unfair, isn't it?
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Offline Jeltz

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #35 on: July 13, 2014, 08:46:17 PM »
So you can't say "Go believe what you want" and then say "but you can't tell us about Jesus, even if that's what you believe."

Kind of unfair, isn't it?

It's not unfair at all. You would say the same thing about all the non-Christian religions, after all.

Isn't that unfair of you to reject their offers to tell you about Mohammed or Buddha or Kolob or Dianetics? Even if their religion commands it, you will say to these people that they can't preach to you.

Just because your religion commands you to proselytize it doesn't mean we have to listen to it or you'll cry that it's not fair. That is ridiculous.


Offline Emily

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #36 on: July 13, 2014, 08:56:29 PM »
Oh no, Skep. Don't get it wrong. You can believe all that you want too. It's a free world, after all. No one has the right to deny others from believing what they wish, however true or false that belief is. You have that right, but people also have the right to not want to hear what you have to say.

Preach it to someone who'll listen as long as you stay out of my politics, school and off my door step.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #37 on: July 13, 2014, 09:29:42 PM »

This one has its problems - the main one being all of the humans who make it their personal goal to push their beliefs onto everyone around them. Imagine a universe where people are free to believe whatever they want, and they are never bothered by others who don't have the same beliefs. The main goal of atheist activism, in my opinion, is to get the believers to STFU and get on with their praying and bending over for YHWH, and leave the rest of the world the hell alone.

Aha! But, here comes the kicker.

We believe that Jesus Christ Himself commanded us to go out and tell people about Jesus and Christianity. Telling us to ignore that and leave people alone is telling us to ignore our religion, which is also wrong.

So you can't say "Go believe what you want" and then say "but you can't tell us about Jesus, even if that's what you believe."

Kind of unfair, isn't it?

Allah told people, in a roundabout way, to fly into buildings, and they did. Thank you for being a bit more benign. But frankly, if you're gonna put effort into this conversion crap, you might try a group that is a bit more open to old ideas.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #38 on: July 14, 2014, 01:31:39 AM »
Allah told people, in a roundabout way, to fly into buildings, and they did. Thank you for being a bit more benign. But frankly, if you're gonna put effort into this conversion crap, you might try a group that is a bit more open to old ideas.

What is the point of atheists discussing this stuff if they don't think they will ever be converted? It seems like a waste of time, then.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #39 on: July 14, 2014, 01:34:02 AM »
So you can't say "Go believe what you want" and then say "but you can't tell us about Jesus, even if that's what you believe."

Kind of unfair, isn't it?

It's not unfair at all. You would say the same thing about all the non-Christian religions, after all.

Isn't that unfair of you to reject their offers to tell you about Mohammed or Buddha or Kolob or Dianetics? Even if their religion commands it, you will say to these people that they can't preach to you.

Just because your religion commands you to proselytize it doesn't mean we have to listen to it or you'll cry that it's not fair. That is ridiculous.

No, they can certainly preach all they want. And I have the right to preach the Gospel to them. In fact, I encourage other faiths to preach to me so I can share my faith with them.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline voodoo child

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #40 on: July 14, 2014, 03:38:38 AM »

What is the point of atheists discussing this stuff if they don't think they will ever be converted? It seems like a waste of time, then.

It is a big waste of time.  The last thing on my mind all day long, Is talking about something that does not exist. This is entertainment. Its reality, and there are some great free thinkers here.
But hey if you think that worshiping an unknown makes you happy.. What would I care, it's your short life on this ball.  What if, out of all the religions, yours was wrong? 

The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline dloubet

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #41 on: July 14, 2014, 04:13:34 AM »
You know, if I was perfect like the god is supposed to be, I would necessarily be perfectly self-contained and have no need to create anything.

Even if I did decide to alter perfection into something less than perfection by creating something, as a god who is omniscient and supposedly outside of time all I could create would be a self-contained, static piece of art for myself alone. This is especially stupid since actualizing the creation is completely unnecessary. I can simply enjoy my absolute knowledge of the intended creation in each and every detail, and not actually have to create it.

If I was a god, the horrible truth would be that anything I could create would be artiface. A contrivance. It would be every bit as genuine as DisneyWorld. Due to my omniscience, the beings in it would be every bit as interesting to talk to as the animatronic presidents at EPCOT.

No, if I as such a god, I wouldn't create anything.
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #42 on: July 14, 2014, 08:49:07 AM »
Typical arguments from creationists say that the universe "must" be designed but, if God made a big deal of creating us in his image and sending his son here to earth to save us, it seems silly that he'd make 999,999,999,999,999+ other suns and planets that are all unreachable.

If the universe were created as described in the Bible it's actually make the most sense to create it as one sun and one planet.  You could have the sun orbit the planet as early man thought it did.   This would make the most sense.

To create the universe the way it is now, so overwhelmingly dangerous, distant, unexplorable and uninhabitable, with people being so fragile and full of random problems and issues, it makes you think there might not be a creator at all.  ;-)

One more thing I'd do when creating a universe...

Since we wouldn't NEED natural selection like we have now, there wouldn't be this gigantic competition for energy and a constant drive to need "more things" in people.   People wouldn't have as much to worry about, and their brains would be built to be more content.   If you met someone great, and had a family, chemicals in either spouses brain wouldn't start to change after a few years causing them to become dis-satisfied.

Life would be more like a relaxing summer break from college, and work would be things that you were inspired to create or try.   Any time you needed a break from stress you could step back and have it.


...

Skeptic it's not that we like or dislike the natural universe we live in now, but rather just that it's all we've got.   We're living in a world with evolution and natural selection and all the problems that come with it.

It's an easier world to live in when you accept it for what it is, rather than try to force a diety that doesn't fit upon it.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #43 on: July 14, 2014, 10:12:32 AM »
If I were a god...
Make no humans so no problems ever arise. No suffering no nothing. Poof myself out of existence so nothing ever needs to nor happens. No problems, no nothing.

Now, how would that be fair to the people who WANT to worship God and be with Him for eternity?

In that universe, there actually would be a god, and he'd show up in measurable ways.

But whether there was a god or not, would you want to worship him if he wasn't real?

For example...  Hestia was the eldest daughter of the titans Rhea and Cronus, and therefore, she was the oldest Olympian goddess. She became the Goddess of Home and Family, and she was loved by each and every Olympian deity because of her affable nature. The Romans called her “Vesta”.

Would you want to worship her and spend eternity with her?

Why not?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Defiance

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #44 on: July 14, 2014, 05:01:55 PM »
Greek goddesses are hotttttttttttttttttt
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #45 on: July 14, 2014, 06:23:34 PM »
In fact, I encourage other faiths to preach to me so I can share my faith with them.

You completely missed my point that religious people only want to impose their views on others and not listen to the other side of the story. Why do you want people to come to you to preach? Not to listen but to impose your view.

When someone posts a difficult question, you ignore it and dodge to a side issue. Why do you set up this mental block? Now that I have discovered that you have been led astray by your demons into believing muslim propaganda and muslim interpretations of western culture, and into believing texts like the book of Enoch which no one this side Istanbul believes in, you should be worried about yourself. This should be the most important issue for you, but you are blocking it out and ignoring the fact that you are being led astray.

Just to lighten the mood a little. You might wonder how a feel about giving away bibles. It is not easy for me to add to the quantity of verbal garbage in the world, but I like to think that people will read it and say OMG, I wasn't told it was this ridiculous. I think I should have sign saying "READ ALL ABOUT IT, read about the talking donkey, get your free bible".
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #46 on: July 15, 2014, 12:18:20 PM »
How about we atheists start collecting all the free bibles that Christians give out, and highlight the most hateful, confusing, sexual, violent, contradictory and silly parts, mark those pages with stickies and then hand them back out?

Most Christians in my experience read the nice stuff about Jesus and generally ignore the rest. Except the parts that condemn people they don't like.  &)

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #47 on: July 15, 2014, 02:02:20 PM »
How about we atheists start collecting all the free bibles that Christians give out, and highlight the most hateful, confusing, sexual, violent, contradictory and silly parts, mark those pages with stickies and then hand them back out?

Most Christians in my experience read the nice stuff about Jesus and generally ignore the rest. Except the parts that condemn people they don't like.  &)

That's a fantastic idea... seriously.    You could color code the highlights...

Those should be printed up by the thousands... exact copies, no additional editorial... just the exact bible as it is, but with key parts highlighted.

PINK - Violence, slavery, rape, etc
YELLOW - Contradictions, maybe with the page number or numbers of the opposing idea
BLUE - Parts of prophesy that didn't come true or are just fortune cookie stupid
ORANGE - Verses on animal sacrifice and how exactly to carve them up and burn them
GREEN - All the different viewpoints expressed in the bible on how you get to heaven.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Defiance

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #48 on: July 15, 2014, 02:58:50 PM »
How about we atheists start collecting all the free bibles that Christians give out, and highlight the most hateful, confusing, sexual, violent, contradictory and silly parts, mark those pages with stickies and then hand them back out?

Most Christians in my experience read the nice stuff about Jesus and generally ignore the rest. Except the parts that condemn people they don't like.  &)

That's a fantastic idea... seriously.    You could color code the highlights...

Those should be printed up by the thousands... exact copies, no additional editorial... just the exact bible as it is, but with key parts highlighted.

PINK - Violence, slavery, rape, etc
YELLOW - Contradictions, maybe with the page number or numbers of the opposing idea
BLUE - Parts of prophesy that didn't come true or are just fortune cookie stupid
ORANGE - Verses on animal sacrifice and how exactly to carve them up and burn them
GREEN - All the different viewpoints expressed in the bible on how you get to heaven.
Dude. Please. I would actually buy it and keep it. Anyone know of such a thing already made?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #49 on: July 15, 2014, 03:06:02 PM »
How about we atheists start collecting all the free bibles that Christians give out, and highlight the most hateful, confusing, sexual, violent, contradictory and silly parts, mark those pages with stickies and then hand them back out?

Most Christians in my experience read the nice stuff about Jesus and generally ignore the rest. Except the parts that condemn people they don't like.  &)

That's a fantastic idea... seriously.    You could color code the highlights...

Those should be printed up by the thousands... exact copies, no additional editorial... just the exact bible as it is, but with key parts highlighted.

PINK - Violence, slavery, rape, etc
YELLOW - Contradictions, maybe with the page number or numbers of the opposing idea
BLUE - Parts of prophesy that didn't come true or are just fortune cookie stupid
ORANGE - Verses on animal sacrifice and how exactly to carve them up and burn them
GREEN - All the different viewpoints expressed in the bible on how you get to heaven.
Dude. Please. I would actually buy it and keep it. Anyone know of such a thing already made?

Do we have the idea for a new product here?   I'm a professional designer so I'd be happy to help do the cover and lay it out.   We could even add cartoon illustrations like Jepthath's daughter running out the door to greet him and Jepthath face-palming himself.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #50 on: July 15, 2014, 08:23:58 PM »
^^^^With the thought bubble: "Doh!"
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #51 on: July 18, 2014, 02:00:41 PM »
Yeah, exactly.

I still have a theory that Skeptic is an atheist posing as a Christian to help us all hone our debating skills, so that we are better able to help more people be free from the God Delusion.

But Skeptic, if you're real, just know that someday, you may find yourself in church, or another church, and start to realize that all their answers are circular and stuff that you used to think makes sense, really doesn't.   You might hear pastors giving different excuses for God for the same types of acts, and you may eventually need help or wisdom from the church and find that it's less useful than talking to a little kid.

You'll think back to some of the stuff we're telling you and it'll start to click.

You'll be terrified to "doubt god" but eventually, you'll realize that there's nothing to doubt.

Getting an atheist to believe again is like getting a teenager to start believing in Santa again.  We grew up, we wised up, we see the excuses for Santa for what they are... excuses.   My post claiming Santa as god uses ALL the same excuses and logical fallacies that Xtians use.

Can you go back to believing in the Easter Bunny?

You'll never convert thoughtful atheists, but, there's a chance you might find yourself questioning things over the years, and the reason is that what you believe is not based in truth.

I'll leave you with this...

IF SOMETHING IS TRUE, DO YOU HAVE TO RUN AROUND GOING, IT'S TRUE, IT'S TRUE, IT'S THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT?

Count how many times a pastor uses the word true or truth.

Do you have to say that when talking about the earth being round?

I tell you the truth Skeptic.  Praise be to Jesus, who is the truth.  That the truth is the world is round.  It is the truth and there is EVIDENCE that it is the truth.  Peace be upon the prophet Mohammed, who is the truth.

And from there, I present you with zero evidence?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #52 on: July 18, 2014, 02:12:44 PM »
^^^Also the good news, which is that most people, including the friends, family, neighbors and coworkers of the believer, are going to hell to burn for all eternity. Right next to Pol Pot, Hitler, Jack the Ripper and Jeffrey Dahlmer. For not believing the right stuff.  :angel:

What's the good part again?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #53 on: July 18, 2014, 02:45:36 PM »
How about we atheists start collecting all the free bibles that Christians give out, and highlight the most hateful, confusing, sexual, violent, contradictory and silly parts, mark those pages with stickies and then hand them back out?

Most Christians in my experience read the nice stuff about Jesus and generally ignore the rest. Except the parts that condemn people they don't like.  &)

That's a fantastic idea... seriously.    You could color code the highlights...

Those should be printed up by the thousands... exact copies, no additional editorial... just the exact bible as it is, but with key parts highlighted.

PINK - Violence, slavery, rape, etc
YELLOW - Contradictions, maybe with the page number or numbers of the opposing idea
BLUE - Parts of prophesy that didn't come true or are just fortune cookie stupid
ORANGE - Verses on animal sacrifice and how exactly to carve them up and burn them
GREEN - All the different viewpoints expressed in the bible on how you get to heaven.

I would also want PURPLE for bad science, CHARTREUSE for bad history, PUCE for bad advice and SEAFOAM GREEN for stuff that was just plain silly. But great idea!

Of course, a person could just go buy a shitload of variously colored Peeps whenever the next holiday comes around and get the same rainbow effect plus something almost nutritious as well. So there would be some competition. But hey, you never know what the next Pet Rock is gonna be!
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline JoeNobody

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2014, 09:32:01 AM »
You guys may or may not be aware of the Skeptics Annotated Bible

Offline jdawg70

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #55 on: July 22, 2014, 11:05:51 AM »
^^^Also the good news, which is that most people, including the friends, family, neighbors and coworkers of the believer, are going to hell to burn for all eternity. Right next to Pol Pot, Hitler, Jack the Ripper and Jeffrey Dahlmer. For not believing the right stuff.  :angel:

What's the good part again?

Hell, what's the news part?  That sh*t is like 2000 years old.  And what with the internet and all[1], who the hell isn't at least tacitly aware of this Jesus dude?
 1. Not to mention centuries of things like wars and evangelicalism.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Airyaman

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Re: If the Universe was Created
« Reply #56 on: July 22, 2014, 11:33:12 AM »
You guys may or may not be aware of the Skeptics Annotated Bible

We non-internet-savvy atheists debating Christians have never heard of such a source!

 ;D
If you are following God why can I still see you?