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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2014, 03:40:21 AM »
So the moral of the story is that Job did not serve Jehovah for selfish gain and that he maintained his integrity toward God even though Job did not understand what was happening.  That makes him a fine example of love, selflessness, and integrity.  However much more was proved than Job was a faithful man.  Job proved that man, the creation, is capable of immeasurable and unselfish love.  Any failure to measure up to the standard does not indicate a defect in design.  Man is capable.  Therefore man will be without excuse for failure on judgement day.

Faithful and loving, perhaps.  But wise?  Probably not.  In the story of Job, Yahweh removes his protection from Job in order to prove a point to Satan - and to make a point to subsequent followers.

I've never been quite clear how the tale of Job presents Yahweh in a particularly good light.  Presumably his choice of Job as the object of the wager was because he knew that Job was his very best believer and most faithful servant, a person who Yahweh knew would never desert or question him.

That's the point I have trouble with.  You take the person who loves you the most, reveres you the most....and then deliberately set out to do nasty things to them.  My dog loves me unquestioningly....if I said to you "look!  I can kick my dog over and over, but he STILL loves me!", you would perhaps praise the dog for his love.....but what would be your opinion of me?

Perhaps the point is a message for future generations of believers?  But even then, I have issues, because the message seems to be "doesn't matter HOW good a man you are, HOW strong in faith you are.....if I want to, I will make your life terrible.  Because you are my toys, my creation."  I find it very hard to see any good lesson being taught there.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Online screwtape

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #88 on: July 09, 2014, 11:09:31 AM »
My original statement was "Job is one of the finest examples of human love, selflessness, and integrity.

1.  Job loved Jehovah, Job 1:8.

Incorrect.  It says nothing about love.  It says "he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”[1]  None of the hebrew words there imply love.[2]  Fear is not a very good basis for a loving relationship.

So, no love.  Especially not the human kind.

2.  Satan claimed Job only loved God because of selfishness, Job 1:9-10

They had a contract, no?  The "Grand Ole Covenant"?[3]  God promised to protect the jooz and make them prosper in return for their loyalty and following his preposterous rules.  That is the whole premise of the relationship between hebrews and yhwh.  Self interest.

3.  Job suffered severe loss, Satan took away any benefits he had from worshiping God as per the OP.  Only his life could Satan not take.  (Job 1:12)

There is no selflessness here, anywhere.  Selflessness is where you do something for other people without concern for your own needs.  It requires an element of agency.  That is, you must do it of your own accort.  Job did nothing for anyone else.  He showed great concern for his stuff.  And the situation was put upon him without his choice.  None of this qualifies as selflessness.

4.  Through it all Job maintained his integrity.  (Job 42:8 )

Integrity is debatable.  yhwh spends several verses bloviating about how powerful he is and how terrifying he is and how Job is but a little worm piddling himself.  Not to mention, literally everything he had besides his life was taken from him by yhwh's agent, despite the GOC.  Then yhwh tells him he has no right to complain.  Seriously, yhwh looks a lot like Tony Soprano.

So it strikes me that Job did the only thing he could when faced with overwhelmingly superior firepower and knuckled under.  That is more self preservation than integrity.


Job reasoned "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. Jehovah gave and Jehovah has taken away; may the name of Jehovah be praised." (Job 1:21)

Integrity or prudent ass-kissing?  Integrity or stupidity?  "Thank you, yhwh! May I have another?"  Integrity or a very human attempt to accept that which you cannot control?  Strikes me as a very zen approach to utter destruction. 

5.  Even his wife despised Job because of his integrity.  (Job 2:9)

And the OT shows yet again that women are the smarter gender.  Maybe that is the moral you are supposed to get out of this?  Job was a dumb rube of whom god took advantage and his wife was the smart one.

6.  Jehovah blessed Job for his faithfulness.  (Job 42:12-15)

That was more of a curse. If blessing means going through what Job went through, no thanks. 

So the moral of the story is...

I know what the xian take on it is, thanks.  It is fcked up, twisted and backward.  It is sick.  Just like the xian take on Isaac's binding, jesus' "sacrifice" and pretty much everything else.  I know this is what you have been taught.  I am suggesting you try looking at it from a fresh perspective.

 
According to my understanding of the scriptures, it is absolutely necessary the capabilities of man be fully shown

I've not heard this before. Why is it absolutely necessary and where do you get this from?

 1. https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=job+1%3A8&version=NIV
 2. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Job&c=1&t=KJV&ss=1
 3. GOC
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 11:40:18 AM by screwtape »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #89 on: July 09, 2014, 12:23:08 PM »
^^^^Excellent points, all.

The torment that Job went through was truly pointless, because Jehovah already knew the outcome. He knew that Job would hang tough. Job knew he would hang tough--what choice did he have? So who was the whole demonstration for? Satan.

Satan is the old west outlaw shooting at Job's feet to make him dance. Meanwhile Sheriff God, instead of going all Kwai Chang Caine on Satan and protecting Job, just leans against the hitching post, smoking a cigar and watching the show: "Shoot closer to his feet-- I'm sure he can keep up."

There are no good guys here, no heroes. Only a weak, helpless slave and two sadists.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #90 on: July 09, 2014, 12:29:14 PM »
JST why do you hold to what you believe to be a story,to be based on any sort of truth? If you believe OT stories as lessons and not as fact,why indeed are you here arguing them as if they were fact?

 If you believe it's a story to show ones dedication that's fine,it's a story,the writer can show the lesson ( a theists perspective ) where the devout has a will of iron,like how in Hollywood the good guy always wins. If this were an actual fact based article could you see it happening? If Job new the entire circumstance of the wager(he did not) would he have the same devotion?

 If Satan informs Job that God is allowing this barbaric deviant acts against him(job) to win a bet,would he have given up?....of course the STORY is not written that way....good guy prevails

I've never said the Hebrew scriptures are fictional stories.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #91 on: July 09, 2014, 01:11:19 PM »
Incorrect.  It says nothing about love.  It says "he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”[1]  None of the hebrew words there imply love.[2]  Fear is not a very good basis for a loving relationship.

In order to be blameless and upright he would have to observe the command "Thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Dt 6:4)

Quote
They had a contract, no?  The "Grand Ole Covenant"?[3]  God promised to protect the jooz and make them prosper in return for their loyalty and following his preposterous rules.  That is the whole premise of the relationship between hebrews and yhwh.  Self interest.

That has nothing to do with Job's selflessness.

Quote
There is no selflessness here, anywhere.  Selflessness is where you do something for other people without concern for your own needs.  It requires an element of agency.  That is, you must do it of your own accort.  Job did nothing for anyone else.  He showed great concern for his stuff.  And the situation was put upon him without his choice.  None of this qualifies as selflessness.

He demonstrated unselfish love for Jehovah.  He could have cursed God as his wife advised.  This would have proven Job only loved him as long as God "had a hedge of protection" around him.  But that's not what Job did.  He did not worship Jehovah because of what he got out of it.

Quote
Integrity is debatable.  yhwh spends several verses bloviating about how powerful he is and how terrifying he is and how Job is but a little worm piddling himself.  Not to mention, literally everything he had besides his life was taken from him by yhwh's agent, despite the GOC.  Then yhwh tells him he has no right to complain.  Seriously, yhwh looks a lot like Tony Soprano.

So it strikes me that Job did the only thing he could when faced with overwhelmingly superior firepower and knuckled under.  That is more self preservation than integrity.

Untrue.  Some people that go through hardships disown God.  Job did not.  He kept his integrity before God.

Quote
Integrity or prudent ass-kissing?  Integrity or stupidity?  "Thank you, yhwh! May I have another?"  Integrity or a very human attempt to accept that which you cannot control?  Strikes me as a very zen approach to utter destruction.

He could have been like his wife, but he wasn't.  You act like Job had no choice but to worship God, but he did, just like his wife did.

Quote
And the OT shows yet again that women are the smarter gender.  Maybe that is the moral you are supposed to get out of this?  Job was a dumb rube of whom god took advantage and his wife was the smart one.

Yes Job still inspires people even today.

Quote
That was more of a curse. If blessing means going through what Job went through, no thanks.

That's because your love is selfish.  God is only worth your time if you get something out of it.  You support Satan's claim.

Quote
I know what the xian take on it is, thanks.  It is fcked up, twisted and backward.  It is sick.  Just like the xian take on Isaac's binding, jesus' "sacrifice" and pretty much everything else.  I know this is what you have been taught.  I am suggesting you try looking at it from a fresh perspective.

Some people value things above their own well being.  It's your own fault if you cannot understand.

Quote
I've not heard this before. Why is it absolutely necessary and where do you get this from?

Because without evidence there is no basis for judgement.  If humans were incapable of such things then it would be unjust to judge them for failure.  And if we just had to take God's word for it, because he already does know, that would not be just either.  Well technically it would but that wouldn't help anyone.  In Genesis Jehovah declared his creation "good".  Many of his servants have proven this.  There is no need for us to take his word for it.




 







Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #92 on: July 09, 2014, 01:23:50 PM »
Perhaps the point is a message for future generations of believers?

Exactly.  "For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope."  (Romans 15:4)

Quote
But even then, I have issues, because the message seems to be "doesn't matter HOW good a man you are, HOW strong in faith you are.....if I want to, I will make your life terrible.  Because you are my toys, my creation."  I find it very hard to see any good lesson being taught there.

Job allows us a rare glimpse behind the scenes.  In addition to what I've already said, it gives justification for punishing those that want to oppose Jehovah because they cause good people to suffer for no reason.  We see that Satan is behind it, but he has many willing participants.  Job helped to prove that such opposition to Jehovah and his servants is unwarranted and therefore worthy of punishment.  And Jehovah is not proving these things to himself.  He already knows.  He's proving it to everyone else.  The evidence is not for his benefit.

For Jehovah's judgement to be just, Satan, and those like him, must be allowed to prove their claims.  Otherwise we are left with judgment purely based on what God has said but cannot or will not prove.  We know man has capabilities for boundless love.  We know not because God said it but because God proved it. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #93 on: July 09, 2014, 04:02:05 PM »
God proved what to Jobs family?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #94 on: July 09, 2014, 11:28:44 PM »
I sense a "they were not righteous and therefore deserved what they got" coming on. The comments about Job's wife being a nagging beeyatch who was not faithful to Jehovah is foreshadowing. I'll bet that new improved wife Jehovah provided[1] buckled down and got to worshiping the lord properly, and no complaints, dammit.
 1. From where? Did she have a choice of husbands? I was her I'd avoid ol' formerly boil-covered bad luck Job, but I'm kinda risk averse, myself.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #95 on: July 10, 2014, 01:26:14 AM »
Mebbe i am missing it but all i get out of it is that god is a vain prick.
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #96 on: July 10, 2014, 10:33:00 AM »
JST - Do you have children?   Would you ever take a bet that your children would still love you and trust you if:

- You abandoned them.
- You arranged it so that their friends or other support system would die.
- You inflicted them with many diseases.

Then when you show up, if they ask you questions about why you did what you did, you'd berate them, saying that you gave them life and it was yours to do with what you like.

And in the end, you tried to make it "all ok" by helping them make new friends and curing up the diseases that you arranged for them to contract.

Would you do that?

If you did do that, would you be considered "good" by anyone?


Most of the defenses of God consist of... "well, he made everything so it's his to do what he wants with... if he wants to torture us and hurt us, that's his choice... he's king dictator of everything."

But what do we think of dictators who act that way?

Why give god excuses for that?  Are you afraid to stand up for what is right for fear of being tortured eternally?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #97 on: July 10, 2014, 10:39:30 AM »
JST, just do me this favor...

Keep your faith or whatever, but, when you read the Bible, please take a minute to empathize for all the collateral damage in the stories.

Imagine that you're the wife who gets turned into a pillar of salt for glancing back, while the husband who offered up your daughters for gang rape is the hero of the story.

Imagine that your wife dies of disease because King David screws up the census and doesn't take extra money for god.

Imagine that you are an Egyptian and your smiling baby boy dies because of the 10th plague.

Imagine that you're a scared child whose father died fighting off the Israelites, and they come into the town, capture your virgin sister to later make as a wife, and then stick a sword into your guts, letting you slowly and painfully die on God's command.

Imagine you're a 10 year old girl, fighting to swim as the flood drowns your family around you, and finally you can't swim any more and water fills your lungs, hurting and burning as you die.

Please take a few minutes to think about the collateral damage in the bible... think about them as human beings.   

Please note that in your Biblical view, ALL FALL SHORT of God's glory so it could easily be you, right now...

You, after all, are disobeying god by even listening to people like me... you should dust your sandals and move on, because your pearls of wisdom are wasted on me.  I am just swine!   I am worthless.   What if god allows a plague on your family because of this?

(Note, I don't believe I'm worthless, I just know the bible)
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Online screwtape

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #98 on: July 10, 2014, 12:16:48 PM »
In order to be blameless and upright he would have to observe the command "Thou shalt love Jehovah thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." (Dt 6:4)

sez you. 

You also seem to be conviently excluding Deut6:13 "Fear god with all your heart" which, as I pointed out already, is not consistent with love. 

You also exclude the parts between my quote and yours where it says you must tie the commandments on your forehead, and talk about them whenever you have 2 seconds to yourself.  Crazy talk.

That has nothing to do with Job's selflessness.

Alleged selflessness.  And yes, it does. Because also in deut 6 - the one you quoted above - it says if you don't do those things, god would fuck your shit up:
" the Lord your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land."
So, loving god has nothing to do with god being lovable.  It is about avoiding immediate and complete retribution if you do not.  Love me, or else.  Sorry, Charlie, that is not love.  That is extreme extortion.  Which brings us right back around to Tony Soprano as god.

He demonstrated unselfish love for Jehovah. 

Repeating your claim does not make your case.  You have not shown how it was selfless in any sense of the word.

Untrue.  Some people that go through hardships disown God.  Job did not.  He kept his integrity before God.

Ipse dixit.  You've not made a case.  You have restated your claim.   

He could have been like his wife, but he wasn't.  You act like Job had no choice but to worship God, but he did, just like his wife did.

Given the alternatives and the situation, he did not have any choice that was viable.

You act as if yhwh does not go on for pages bragging about his power and awesomeness.

Quote
And the OT shows yet again that women are the smarter gender.  Maybe that is the moral you are supposed to get out of this?  Job was a dumb rube of whom god took advantage and his wife was the smart one.

Yes Job still inspires people even today.

I left my quote in to show the complete disconnect between my post and your reply.

That's because your love is selfish.

Ah, now you get personal.   

No, my love is not selfish, as if you would know.  To me, love is not enduring abuse.  And certainly not the kind of abuse yhwh endorsed.  Would you say a woman who is relentlessly beaten by her husband, and still stays with him has selfless love for him?  Or is she just traumatized physically and emotionally?
 

God is only worth your time if you get something out of it.  You support Satan's claim.

How else could god possibly be worth anyone's time?  That is the very definition of being "worth your time".  Worth implies value, which means you must be getting value from a thing.  It is a preposterous idea in the first place to love anything just for the sake of loving it.  I have no idea how to do it or how anyone would do it.  Go love a lump of coal just for the sake of loving it.  Then come back and tell me how to do it. 

Of course I agree with the satan on this one.  He was right.  And the rest of the story affirms it.  He did not stick with yhwh out of love, but out of terror and trauma.   

Some people value things above their own well being.  It's your own fault if you cannot understand.

Personal and blaming me for not understanding.  Also, wrong.  I understand valuing things beyond my own well being.  What I don't understand is your perverse point of view on Job because you have done such a terrible job explaining it.  You have mainly just repeated your claims. 

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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #99 on: July 10, 2014, 02:32:55 PM »
Yeah, it really sounds like "loving god" comes from... "Well, he's all powerful and can smash you if you don't, and he might smash you either way... so, love him, and, by love, I mean, when people suffer greatly, make all kinds of excuses for god."

It's very much like a woman making excuses for her drunk husband coming home and beating her.

But honestly, if the woman above DOES believe in God, she'd believe that she'll be rewarded in heaven for keeping her faith and promise to god by staying married... so why do Christians divorce at a higher rate than Atheists, who have no external reward system to keep them in an unhealthy relationship?

(personally I'm for working and fighting to maintain and restore a healthy relationship and only quitting on it as a last resort after all efforts and help has clearly failed... so I'm more committed to marriage than most Christians apparently...)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #100 on: July 10, 2014, 02:53:34 PM »
Faithful Christians married in front of god and his believers should never get divorced. If god wanted you to meet, fall in love, and get married, you are supposed to stay with that person forever. If widowed, Christians are not supposed to remarry, because if god wanted you to be married, he wouldn't have killed your spouse.

The new wife and family for Job still sticks in my craw. Like people are interchangeable--if a child dies, no biggie, just get another one. Wives are just for hauling water and making kids, so anything with two hands and a womb will do. Makes rich guys like Donald Trump with their trophy wives and next-time-around families look virtuous.

Or, if people are not interchangeable, it's even worse. Job was rewarded for his suffering with an even better wife and family.

Like god is running a cosmic game show with people's lives. Job's first family was only the starter version. Satan Cowell voted them out, so god tossed them off the island. Job held out for Door Number Three, so he won the family upgrade package. And Oprah Jehovah gave him a new chariot! Tell Job about the chariot, Johnny. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #101 on: July 10, 2014, 03:06:23 PM »
At this point, it would be pretty easy to put forward the argument that each dead member of Job's family, (and let's not forget all of his slaves that burned to death) suffered more than Jesus did, and for even less "reason".

An objective reading of the story is all that is required to see it. Well, that and the tiniest bit of compassion for others. All those lives were ended over a wager[1] between God and Satan - to "prove" a point. To whom? Who in this scenario needed that point proven? These gamblers are an all-powerful creator deity and the only entity to take said deity on directly in the entire fricking universe! How could they have needed this proven, for f*ck sake?

There's simply no way to spin that positively. Any efforts to do so diminishes Job's slaves lives and his family's existence to utter irrelevancy, and by default, what in Hades does that say about the value of the rest of human kind in the eyes of that god-being? Remember - this deity thought Job was the absolute shit before he decided to wreck Job's entire life for giggles. Look how your God treated his favorite human.

How can anyone possibly reconcile that with a "loving" god? There isn't a circle pliable enough to ram that square peg through it.

Edit - misplaced '

Edit 2 - if I recall correctly some slaves burned and some were .... killed in a raid? Something that makes me think of swords, that's all I can recall for sure.
 1. WTF kind of loving deity gambles with the literal lives of its followers?
« Last Edit: July 10, 2014, 03:12:48 PM by Jag »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #102 on: July 10, 2014, 07:11:07 PM »
JST why do you hold to what you believe to be a story,to be based on any sort of truth? If you believe OT stories as lessons and not as fact,why indeed are you here arguing them as if they were fact?

 If you believe it's a story to show ones dedication that's fine,it's a story,the writer can show the lesson ( a theists perspective ) where the devout has a will of iron,like how in Hollywood the good guy always wins. If this were an actual fact based article could you see it happening? If Job new the entire circumstance of the wager(he did not) would he have the same devotion?

 If Satan informs Job that God is allowing this barbaric deviant acts against him(job) to win a bet,would he have given up?....of course the STORY is not written that way....good guy prevails

I've never said the Hebrew scriptures are fictional stories.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #103 on: July 11, 2014, 03:07:24 AM »
Perhaps the point is a message for future generations of believers?

Exactly.  "For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through the endurance taught in the Scriptures and the encouragement they provide we might have hope."  (Romans 15:4)

Quote
But even then, I have issues, because the message seems to be "doesn't matter HOW good a man you are, HOW strong in faith you are.....if I want to, I will make your life terrible.  Because you are my toys, my creation."  I find it very hard to see any good lesson being taught there.

Job allows us a rare glimpse behind the scenes.....

Afraid you missed one of my questions there Jst.

You take the person who loves you the most, reveres you the most....and then deliberately set out to do nasty things to them.  My dog loves me unquestioningly....if I said to you "look!  I can kick my dog over and over, but he STILL loves me!", you would perhaps praise the dog for his love.....but what would be your opinion of me?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #104 on: July 11, 2014, 07:57:37 AM »
What I'd like to know is, who wrote the book of Job, and how was he privy to the private conversations between yhwy and satan?
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #105 on: July 11, 2014, 08:04:14 AM »
What I'd like to know is, who wrote the book of Job, and how was he privy to the private conversations between yhwy and satan?

On a similar vein.....Job's reaction presumably was as it was, precisely because he was not aware of the "why" behind Yahweh's wager with Satan.  And yet, the "why" is now spelled out to every Christian there ever will be.

Can any Christian now truly emulate Job, since they have important information that Job did not have?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #106 on: July 11, 2014, 09:28:42 AM »
What I'd like to know is, who wrote the book of Job, and how was he privy to the private conversations between yhwy and satan?

On a similar vein.....Job's reaction presumably was as it was, precisely because he was not aware of the "why" behind Yahweh's wager with Satan.  And yet, the "why" is now spelled out to every Christian there ever will be.

Can any Christian now truly emulate Job, since they have important information that Job did not have?
Silly non theist,Jesus died so no Christian has to emulate Job. Not one Christian would even come close. They pull out the Jesus card when left to decide wether or not to do something against their teachings. My belief in Jesus absolves me from going against my teachings,,,,, I'M ONLY HUMAN YOU KNOW.......If we had a dollar for every Christian who uses the Jesus card,we would be as rich as the Catholic Church
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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #107 on: July 11, 2014, 12:30:56 PM »
What I'd like to know is, who wrote the book of Job...

Oh, that is so crying out for a song parody.  "Wonder wonder who ..."
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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #108 on: July 11, 2014, 12:45:02 PM »
You take the person who loves you the most, reveres you the most....and then deliberately set out to do nasty things to them.  My dog loves me unquestioningly....if I said to you "look!  I can kick my dog over and over, but he STILL loves me!", you would perhaps praise the dog for his love.....but what would be your opinion of me?

Jehovah did not cause Job's suffering.  But he did allow Satan to try and turn Job against him.  No doubt something similar occured in Genesis with Adam and Eve.  However they provided evidence that Satan was correct.  I admit it is hard to understand but the issue of human integrity must be answered. 

This is actually closely related to Jehovah's right to rule.  If mankind is a defective creation then that casts doubt of Jehovah's sovereignty.  Jehovah knows he is the best ruler, but it must be proven, not for Jehovah's benefit, but for our knowldge and benefit and so the question of sovereignty can forever be settled among all intelligent creation.  It is a necessary means to an end.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #109 on: July 11, 2014, 01:54:35 PM »
This is actually closely related to Jehovah's right to rule.  If mankind is a defective creation then that casts doubt of Jehovah's sovereignty.  Jehovah knows he is the best ruler, but it must be proven, not for Jehovah's benefit, but for our knowldge and benefit and so the question of sovereignty can forever be settled among all intelligent creation.  It is a necessary means to an end.

And how do other stories, say, that of Noah, inform this concept?
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #110 on: July 11, 2014, 01:58:50 PM »
This is actually closely related to Jehovah's right to rule.  If mankind is a defective creation then that casts doubt of Jehovah's sovereignty.  Jehovah knows he is the best ruler, but it must be proven, not for Jehovah's benefit, but for our knowldge and benefit and so the question of sovereignty can forever be settled among all intelligent creation.  It is a necessary means to an end.

And how do other stories, say, that of Noah, inform this concept?

Is Jstwebbrowsing actually claiming that all stories in the bible reflect this message of sovereignty?
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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #111 on: July 11, 2014, 02:39:06 PM »
You take the person who loves you the most, reveres you the most....and then deliberately set out to do nasty things to them.  My dog loves me unquestioningly....if I said to you "look!  I can kick my dog over and over, but he STILL loves me!", you would perhaps praise the dog for his love.....but what would be your opinion of me?

Jehovah did not cause Job's suffering.  But he did allow Satan to try and turn Job against him.

jesus christ on a stick, man!  You are being pedantic and avoiding the point.  Assume Anfauglir's analogy is he let someone else beat the shit out of his dog to see if his dog would stop loving him. How does that make Anfauglir look?  (hint: like an asshole)

Jehovah knows he is the best ruler,

Or, as the evidence suggests, maybe he's terrible at it and he just thinks he's the best because of Dunning-Kruger.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #112 on: July 11, 2014, 03:01:07 PM »
Like I said before, Outlaw Josey Satan is shooting at Job's feet to make him dance and Sheriff Andy Jehovah stands by watching.

Maybe the sheriff will stop the outlaw before he shoots Job in the knee, or maybe not. Could be the sheriff won't get his a$$ off the hitching post for anything less than a gunshot to the face. Even though Job is his own deputy and best buddy. It's a hot day, after all.

Even then, ol' doc might be able to patch Job right up and give him a new face.

The Sheriff is showing the town good leadership? He's demonstrating that he is so much better at running the town than Outlaw Satan? I cannot for the life of me see how anyone gets that out of this scenario. :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #113 on: July 11, 2014, 03:44:08 PM »
You have to have the heart of a coward and the mind of a fish to get that god somehow comes out good in the job story.


mebbe xians are pre-disposed to being grovelling slaves.
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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #114 on: July 11, 2014, 04:01:30 PM »
This is actually closely related to Jehovah's right to rule.  If mankind is a defective creation then that casts doubt of Jehovah's sovereignty.  Jehovah knows he is the best ruler, but it must be proven, not for Jehovah's benefit, but for our knowldge and benefit and so the question of sovereignty can forever be settled among all intelligent creation.  It is a necessary means to an end.

And how do other stories, say, that of Noah, inform this concept?

It demonstrates that a great number of people will do like Adam and Eve and choose to do what they think best.  It also demonstrates the need for Jehovah's guidance.  Consider the condition of the world at the time.

"Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. (Gen 6:11-13)

However Jehovah promises something better for this earth.  "Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.  I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." (Rev 21:1-4)





Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Job suffered more than Jesus
« Reply #115 on: July 11, 2014, 04:12:47 PM »
This is actually closely related to Jehovah's right to rule.  If mankind is a defective creation then that casts doubt of Jehovah's sovereignty.  Jehovah knows he is the best ruler, but it must be proven, not for Jehovah's benefit, but for our knowldge and benefit and so the question of sovereignty can forever be settled among all intelligent creation.  It is a necessary means to an end.

And how do other stories, say, that of Noah, inform this concept?

Is Jstwebbrowsing actually claiming that all stories in the bible reflect this message of sovereignty?

Not literally all stories, but a great number of them.  The vindication of Jehovah's sovereignty is the primary theme of the entire Bible.  His sovereignty will be vindicated through his kingdom with Christ as king.  A great number of stories are given to demonstrate the need for God's rulership and of human integrity.  Abraham is another outstanding example of both human integrity toward God and the value of obeying Jehovah.

Up until now we have had a demonstration of man-rule.  Prophecy indicates it will end in extinction without Jehovah's interference (Mt 24:22).  Then for 1000 years we will have a demonstration of Jehovah's rulership through Christ.  Final judgment will then be rendered and the issue will never be raised again.  The facts will speak for themselves about who should rule and why.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10