Author Topic: Personal Experience  (Read 790 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2014, 01:34:21 PM »
Your god didnt need a creator, apparently.

Right because only CREATED things need a CREATOR. God is not a CREATED thing.

Simple logic, folks.
How do you know that the universe didn't always exist, that it also had some sort of infinite regression with multiple universes all spawning from the other?

You're right, god didn't need a creator, because he doesn't exist.

Because the 2nd law of theromodynamics proves it can't be infinite.

A finite amount of entropy can not exist in an infinite.
I have asked you to explain this  statement  and how you came to your conclusion. Take another shot or again be reported to the mods
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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #30 on: July 04, 2014, 02:48:00 PM »
Theists often tout "personal experience" as the reason they believe. I, however, have not experienced anything that would lead me to think there is any such thing as "God".

If personal experience is sufficient for the theist, is my lack of personal experience not sufficient justification for my lack of belief?

At the risk of upsetting my fellow theists, I think the answer to your question is "yes". 

As always,

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #31 on: July 04, 2014, 03:23:54 PM »
I have asked you to explain this  statement  and how you came to your conclusion. Take another shot or again be reported to the mods

Professor John Cimbala can explain it better than I can:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/jmc6/second_law.html

"As time goes forward (assuming things continue as they are), the available energy in the universe will eventually turn into unavailable energy. At this point, the universe will be said to have suffered a heat death, just like the coffee in the room. The present universe, as we know it, cannot last forever. Furthermore, imagine going backwards in time. Since the energy of the universe is constantly changing from a state of availability to one of less availability, the further back in time one goes, the more available the energy of the universe. Using the clock analogy again, the further back in time, the more wound up the clock. Far enough back in time, the clock was completely wound up. The universe therefore cannot be infinitely old. One can only conclude that the universe had a beginning, and that beginning had to have been caused by someone or something operating outside of the known laws of thermodynamics. "
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #32 on: July 04, 2014, 03:26:30 PM »
I have asked you to explain this  statement  and how you came to your conclusion. Take another shot or again be reported to the mods

Professor John Cimbala can explain it better than I can:
http://www.personal.psu.edu/jmc6/second_law.html

"As time goes forward (assuming things continue as they are), the available energy in the universe will eventually turn into unavailable energy. At this point, the universe will be said to have suffered a heat death, just like the coffee in the room. The present universe, as we know it, cannot last forever. Furthermore, imagine going backwards in time. Since the energy of the universe is constantly changing from a state of availability to one of less availability, the further back in time one goes, the more available the energy of the universe. Using the clock analogy again, the further back in time, the more wound up the clock. Far enough back in time, the clock was completely wound up. The universe therefore cannot be infinitely old. One can only conclude that the universe had a beginning, and that beginning had to have been caused by someone or something operating outside of the known laws of thermodynamics. "
So theories are true now,they don't need to be proven,welcome to the big bang
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2014, 03:28:19 PM »
 I see this guy also serves his own self interests,,,,,,and WOW 50 whole Scientists

http://creationwiki.org/John_Cimbala


 Creation Wiki LOLOLOLOLOLOL
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 03:30:55 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2014, 04:29:50 PM »
Back up the claim with evidence or you will be reported for Dodging

What about the 2nd law of thermodynamics? Universe is a closed system. All the entropy would've been used up by now if it was infinite.

Wow, you say that just like you know what the f**k you're talking about. You don't, but at least you've learned a few words that make you sound semi-semiliterate.

Show me where anyone makes strong scientific claims that the universe is infinite and then we'll have this discussion. In the meantime, lets just make it a non-issue.

You're giving yourself your very own "get out of jail free" card by claiming that the universe needs a creator but ignoring the fact that a creator would sort of need, you know, a creator too, or, if, you know, he was infinite, his, oh, you know, entropy stuff, would be all gone by now.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2014, 04:35:30 PM »
Theists often tout "personal experience" as the reason they believe.
I am sure they are right. The problem starts when they try and find a reason for the experience. Their answer seems to be "Goddidit!"

They want there to be a god, so they simply say that the experience was caused by the god that they want to be there.

Delusion occurs not in experience but interpreting the experience in a way that is clearly wrong and then maintaining this false interpretation in the face of all contrary evidence.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:16:29 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Chronos

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2014, 04:52:42 PM »
People always want to believe in something. People always want to aspire to something greater. This is why people follow gods and humans and imbue them with attributes they cannot possibly possess.

I see. Kind of like atheists making "gods" out of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, & Dennett?

No. As an atheist, I do not view Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris & Dennett as gods. That's just silly. They are men who have extensively researched their positions and honed their talents for explaining themselves. That is all.

As far as humans go, I was referring to hero-worship. People follow public figures, typically athletes, musicians and actors with the same awe and deference as they do to gods. I don't know of any atheists viewing Hitchens with awe. Perhaps admiration but not awe. Throngs of screaming girls do not writhe, scream and throw their bras at Sam Harris.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #37 on: July 04, 2014, 05:01:55 PM »
I see. Kind of like atheists making "gods" out of Dawkins, Hitchens, Harris, & Dennett?

Never heard of Dawkins or Hitchens until I joined this forum. Still don't care about them beyond the fact that they're alive and are scientists turns out Hitchens isn't even a scientist. I guess that explains why I've never heard of his contributions to science. It should show you how much I idolize him. Hint: not at all. I also don't recall any major contribution made by Dawkins (who I'm sure is a biologist), but that may be because I don't really give a crap about his contributions in particular. Can't recall who Harris is. Never even heard of Dennett.
You were saying?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 05:34:31 PM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #38 on: July 04, 2014, 05:08:06 PM »
 &)"A finite amount of entropy can not exist in an infinite"


Word salad.


more skep making unjustified assertions straight from his butt.


some trolls just love being the object of ridicule....like skep.



all special pleading and hear say and messed up attempts to sound scientific.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2014, 05:21:17 PM »
Lol i just read the last bit of skeps link..... conclusion god did it.


why do these "scientists" like creation wiki never actually come up with a single contribution to the publushed literature. they take old science twist it make false conclusions and publish on their own self serving web sites praying somebody stupider and with an even more primitive knowledge of science will read it to confirm their bias.


skep mr science guy what role does time play in a phase space configuration, lets bring yr ideas into this century.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2014, 05:40:35 PM »
... One can only conclude that the universe had a beginning, and that beginning had to have been caused by someone ... operating outside of the known laws of thermodynamics. "
This is where your professor lost me skeptic... your tame professor is suggesting that "someone" made the universe? And he is implying this must be Yahweh, whose own existence can be reliably traced back to about the 12th/11th century BC.

Tell me, how did Yahweh create a universe? Where did He get the stuff from? Or is it "Magic"?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Emily

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2014, 05:54:45 PM »
I wonder how many atheists lost a little bit of "hope in their atheism" when Hitchens died? My guess: none.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2014, 05:57:56 PM »
Only a theist would assume we have a central figure to worship.

they totally don't get it, their problem to deal with.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2014, 06:00:31 PM »
I wonder how many atheists lost a little bit of "hope in their atheism" when Hitchens died? My guess: none.

I couldn't recall that he had died, nor could I recall what he even looked like. Even after looking at his Wikipedia page, I don't think I've ever seen him before in my life. Not kidding.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2014, 07:43:07 PM »
Theists often tout "personal experience" as the reason they believe. I, however, have not experienced anything that would lead me to think there is any such thing as "God".

If personal experience is sufficient for the theist, is my lack of personal experience not sufficient justification for my lack of belief?

Personal experience can also provide a reason to leave religion. As people become more aware of reality and compare it to their own lives, they begin to see that religion has given false answers. Some of the recent introductions, in that section, show how personal experience has helped people escape from religious delusions.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2014, 08:27:26 PM »
... One can only conclude that the universe had a beginning, and that beginning had to have been caused by someone ... operating outside of the known laws of thermodynamics. "

You can see how naive this statement is by putting it like this:

... One can only conclude that life had a beginning, and that beginning had to have been caused by someone or something operating outside of the known laws of evolution.


What about the 2nd law of thermodynamics? Universe is a closed system. All the entropy would've been used up by now if it was infinite.

That is why gods are impossible.

(By the way, it is not entropy which is used up, it is energy. Entropy increases. Your level of scientific understanding has not improved since you have been here.)
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 08:37:31 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #46 on: July 04, 2014, 08:32:43 PM »
How does one use up entropy? lololol

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Offline Tero

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #47 on: July 05, 2014, 09:02:14 AM »
I once almost changed lanes into a trailer behind a pick up that had no lights in the dark.  At the last second my intuition told me to check once more. Funny how that works. God was not detected.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #48 on: July 05, 2014, 09:34:26 AM »
Why is the 2nd law of thermodynamics so interesting to theists?
I mean all I get out it, is how an engine transfers heat.  And why is it a law?  :?
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Offline Tero

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #49 on: July 05, 2014, 08:20:03 PM »
It's interesting to them as something to misinterpret. It only applies to closed systems. The earth is not one.

Offline Emily

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #50 on: July 05, 2014, 09:06:32 PM »
Well, it's really interesting to them because it sounds really awesome. "The Law of Thermodynamics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FUCK YEAH! TRUMP CARD! NO RENEGING ON THE SCIENCE YOU GUYS PUT SO MUCH FAITH IN!"

it sounds all official and scientific and crap. Which it is, BTW. So, creationists find something scientific, anything, that can be used "against" the atheists, (101.99% of the misrepresenting the science involved).

RULES FOR THEISTS TO BEAT ATHEISTS USING SCIENCE

Step 1: Find an article about a particular scientific theory or law in some sort of creationist website or other form of literature.
--The Theist typically runs to Answers in Genesis or Kent Hovind's website
Step 2: Read the heading and the first couple sentences of that article.
Step 3: Blindly agree with that article
--It usually doesn't cross the theist's mind to cross-source or fact check the article, because to the theist, what good are facts? Wikipedia is not a theist's friend when it comes to science. There's just too much truth involved, even on a site gets edited occasionally[1]. (Just tossing this out there: go to the bottom of the page and check the sources wikipedia uses!)
Step 4: Post on an Internet message board like WWGHA acting as if you're an expert in physics or biology.
Step 5: Ignore rebuttal or errors found in said article that are presented by those who are more qualified to discuss the article and actually understand said scientific theory or law.
Step 6: Pretend step 4 never happened, or claim victory anyway.

In short: The theist just talks out of his or her ass. I wonder if skep actually knows anything in-depth about the Second Law of Thermodynamics to even carry out a discussion about it?!?

I doubt he does.   
 1. like wikipedia
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Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #51 on: July 05, 2014, 10:07:58 PM »
Entropy is just a measurement of how much we don't know or a precise measurement of how information we a system does not have. it is counterintuitive to the uninitiated but nothing mysterious to science or rather prosaic to an engineer who has to look at entropy charts all day long.

as far as the universe is concerned it has not been measured enough in terms of its density to determine if the universe will die a cold death or a heat death or collapse and expand indefinitely or another model.


cosmology has only recently become a measurable science and obviously you can't do experiments on the universe so its observation measurement and comparison to models if the uuniverses evolution.


on my old DOS box i had simulations where you could change a few constants and evolve a new universe.


Since COBE the models have really advanced with measured data to input.

quiet a beautiful thing, religion misses the adventure completely .
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2014, 11:24:10 PM »
I couldn't recall that he had died, nor could I recall what he even looked like. Even after looking at his Wikipedia page, I don't think I've ever seen him before in my life. Not kidding.

Oh, that's too bad. You should read some of his books (not light reading) or watch some of his debates. He was made from the traditional British scholarly debate system were you not only beat your opponent, your opponent also lost, sorely.

I certainly didn't agree with him on certain topics, especially foreign policy, but he was entertaining even when wrong. ;)
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #53 on: July 06, 2014, 04:10:56 AM »
Oh, that's too bad. You should read some of his books (not light reading) or watch some of his debates. He was made from the traditional British scholarly debate system were you not only beat your opponent, your opponent also lost, sorely.

I don't read books. Most of them bore me. Same with watching a debate. =/
I especially don't read books on atheism. I don't need to.
However, thanks for the suggestion.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #54 on: July 06, 2014, 04:22:37 AM »
OAA he is a great speaker no matter what side of the fence yr on. i would recommend watching some compilation you tubes of him "hitch slapping" his opponents.

if for nothing other than entertainment, you don't gotta be a hard ass the whole time.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #55 on: July 06, 2014, 04:26:45 AM »
OAA he is a great speaker no matter what side of the fence yr on. i would recommend watching some compilation you tubes of him "hitch slapping" his opponents.

And... You think I care about someone's ability to sound like a good speaker regardless of actual content... why, exactly?

if for nothing other than entertainment,

Thing is, that's not entertaining for me.

you don't gotta be a hard ass the whole time.

I'm not being a hard ass. I'm just being honest. Would you prefer that I had said "Thanks Chronos." then, when he asked me what I had thought, possibly several days later, I'd say "Well, I didn't actually watch it, dude. Watching a debate is boring as shit."?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline eh!

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #56 on: July 06, 2014, 04:34:42 AM »
The content is always going to be low level - he debates theists.  you met skep, you met them all. i was referring to his eloquence and broad and deep knowledge of history and society and how he can tap into that knowledge so rapidly and so totally in context.


anyhoo if you never seen it how do you know you won't be entertained, sloppy coment dude.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Personal Experience
« Reply #57 on: July 06, 2014, 04:35:45 AM »
anyhoo if you never seen it how do you know you won't be entertained, sloppy coment dude.

Debates don't entertain me. Period. Unless you're saying you know me better than I do, in which case I'll have to direct you to the James Randi challenge.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.