Author Topic: Christians and Magic Spells  (Read 156 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Christians and Magic Spells
« on: June 30, 2014, 03:46:29 AM »
Not only is this http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26811.msg621278.html#msg621278 a contender for the “Most Nested Post 2014[1]” prize but it is a good example of the Christian belief in magic spells:



12 Monkeys:  You see the problem here guys, any theist you point out who uses the scripture incorrectly according to JSW is not really a Christian at all, they are under influence of the Devil. It's an easy out for all the evil anybody has ever done in the name of God

Jstwebbrowsing: You must love your neighbor as yourself.  I can't imagine how you could interpret that incorrectly and this effectively abolishes slavery among those that follow it.  If someone doesn't follow it does that mean they've interpreted it incorrectly or does it mean they don't follow it at all?  If one Christian kills another Christian have they misinterpreted the scriptures or have they just refused to obey them?  "By their fruits you will know them"[2], not by their interpretations.

12 Monkeys:  I am the great JST, and my interpretation is the correct one BECAUSE I SAY SO…

JSW: Ad hominem.  You can't imagine how to incorrectly interpret it either, can you?  It's pretty black and white isn't it?

12 Monkeys:  That’s why there is 40,000 denominations right? 39,999 denominations have it wrong and the one denomination JST belongs to has it right.

JSW: More ad hominem.

12 Monkeys:  is the statement wrong?

JSW: That's not for me to tell you.  "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (Jn 5:31)
[/color]



Magic requires no logic, in fact, Magic, is the antithesis of logic Magic and logic are the same thing to religion and superstition but are placed under the heading of “Our Deity’s Power and Promises.”

This is a characteristic of Black Magic, Paganism, all other religions[3] and superstitions: say the words in the name of your deity or philosophy and they will have the desired effect[4].

Now, Jstwebbrowsing, probably unconsciously, is using a magic spell: he apparently does not have an opinion on his own statement. However, the only possibilities I can see are
(i)   He knows it to be false and is being evasive[5],
(ii)   He knows it to be true and is being evasive[6],
(iii)   He is not bothered whether it is true or false: His statement does the job but only when supported by a magic spell.

And what is the magic spell? Well there are two of them:
(a)   "By their fruits you will know them"
(b)   "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."

How do we know (a) and (b) are magic spells? Try changing them to “Abracadabra!” and they still make sense (well, as much sense, by way of supporting argument) as they ever did.)

The first one is irrelevant because to me, “their fruits” would also include their interpretations, i.e. what they give forth.

The second one contains quite remarkable logic:

“If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." This is allegedly a quote by Jesus.

In John 5:13, we see that Jesus is making this statement about himself and is saying that statements about himself that are made by him are false.

The logic is trapped in a vicious circle which runs:

Jesus: “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true."
WWGHA: Does that mean that “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." is untrue?

However, logical or not, “the word of <insert favourite deity> is used as spells to defeat the person who does not agree with you personally: “God said this therefore it is true and you are wrong.” This is based upon presupposing (i) there is such a thing as Magic and (ii) there is an infallible god.

 1. which I have now unnested
 2.  Matthew 7:16
 3. except yours
 4. Today they are replaced by the more secular, “Piss off” or stronger.
 5. We can perhaps see why evasion would be used in this case.
 6. it is hard to see why evasion should be used in this case
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2014, 12:04:26 PM »
This is much too intelligent a statement for JST to respond to. Interested to see him try though.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 12:21:47 PM »
Quote
12 Monkeys:  You see the problem here guys, any theist you point out who uses the scripture incorrectly according to JSW is not really a Christian at all, they are under influence of the Devil. It's an easy out for all the evil anybody has ever done in the name of God

Jstwebbrowsing: You must love your neighbor as yourself.  I can't imagine how you could interpret that incorrectly and this effectively abolishes slavery among those that follow it.  If someone doesn't follow it does that mean they've interpreted it incorrectly or does it mean they don't follow it at all?  If one Christian kills another Christian have they misinterpreted the scriptures or have they just refused to obey them?  "By their fruits you will know them"[2], not by their interpretations.

12 Monkeys:  I am the great JST, and my interpretation is the correct one BECAUSE I SAY SO…

JSW: Ad hominem.  You can't imagine how to incorrectly interpret it either, can you?  It's pretty black and white isn't it?

12 Monkeys:  That’s why there is 40,000 denominations right? 39,999 denominations have it wrong and the one denomination JST belongs to has it right.

JSW: More ad hominem.

12 Monkeys:  is the statement wrong?

JSW: That's not for me to tell you.  "If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (Jn 5:31)


Regardless of all the wrongs done in the Bible condoned by God and done by Christians throughout the centuries... Regardless of the thousands of denominations and no agreement between them, I can admit that, to the best of my knowledge, the Golden Rule as taught in the New Testament (and it's mentioned several times), is a good positive twist on a bit of morality that's been with every culture.

Most cultures taught it as "don't impose upon others that which you would not want imposed upon you."

So in the New Testament, it seems to be reworded more positively.  "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

---

If the Bible and JSW just stopped there, it'd be a pretty good bit of Fortune Cookie right?

But the Bible is over a thousand pages of small print, and there are a lot of other problems with it.

Well meaning, heartfelt Christians don't interpret it the same way and don't "understand the mind of god".

It's a big mess, and the Taoist who wrote this:

Quote
Regard your neighbor's gain as your own gain, and your neighbor's loss as your own loss.

—T'ai Shang Kan Ying P'ien

That guy is probably going to hell right, because he doesn't understand his bible?   Taoism dates back to possibly 4,000 BC... so I guess some of Moses families first incest babies populated Asia and forgot all about the biblical flood right?

You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2014, 12:31:20 PM »
How do you ignore all the terrible advice God gives his followers for the few nuggets of good just copied and refined from earlier cultures?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2014, 01:42:29 PM »
JST?...........(crickets chirping)
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2014, 02:57:50 PM »
How do you ignore all the terrible advice God gives his followers for the few nuggets of good just copied and refined from earlier cultures?

Me?  I don't.  God is imaginary.  The biblegod is a butt-hole.

I'm just saying that most churches do try to focus on the better stuff... they're not in there preaching that people should stone their kids for the most part.

A good bit of the New Testament is fairly forward thinking and kind minded for that era of humanity.

If they just took the bible and edit it down to a fortune cookie with "Do unto others as you'd have them to unto you."   Then I'd eat that cookie and maybe save the little paper fortune in my car dashboard.

As it is now, the Bible is a really bad director's cut.  Lol.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2014, 06:29:22 PM »
still hearing crickets here JSW
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Airyaman

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2014, 07:17:10 PM »
still hearing crickets here JSW

How does he even know he is included in this thread? He could be reading the title and found it uninteresting.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Christians and Magic Spells
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2014, 08:49:33 PM »
still hearing crickets here JSW

How does he even know he is included in this thread? He could be reading the title and found it uninteresting.
true
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)