Author Topic: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.  (Read 1430 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #58 on: July 16, 2014, 12:38:30 AM »
i agree it's a waste of time to look for evidence where there is 0% found so far

Then why are you here constantly arguing on this website and asking for proof?

Some random unnamed people might see that as a "foolish action."
unnamed fools use faith where there is no evidence,then expect to be believed,when they are not believed,they get upset
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #59 on: July 16, 2014, 03:59:14 AM »
i agree it's a waste of time to look for evidence where there is 0% found so far

Then why are you here constantly arguing on this website and asking for proof?

Good question.  Personally, I rarely LOOK for evidence any more because as 12 Monkeys says, I have found nothing so far.  Doesn't mean necessarily that someone else has not found evidence somewhere else.

Its like I'm an archaeologist looking for Celtic pottery.  I have dug in China, Australia, South Africa, Brazil, and Antarctica.  I've found no Celtic pots, so at the moment I've stopped looking.  An archaeologist digging in the UK, however, may still find a pot, and may write to tell me about it.

BUT - and this is the crucial part - I'm not going to accept the pot exists without evidence.  THAT is the point of this forum, and one of the reasons I hang around.  It seems that so many people come here and say "I HAVE the pot!  I can PROVE the pot!".  And I sit up, and say "cool!  Got pictures?  Any evidence?".  And they reply - as you have - "well, there are lots of pots.  There just HAVE to be pots!", and ultimately provide no evidence for their pot.  And I slump back down again, as yet another honest-true-REAL pot vanishes in smoke and mirrors and sophistry.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #60 on: July 16, 2014, 07:16:34 AM »
Come on guys, if god is everywhere, the proof should be abundant and obvious.

I'm still here.

In my opinion, God was proven thousands of years ago. obviously, you disagree. But, this doesn't mean God is not proven.

The universe is the biggest proof there is for God. If there was no God, we shouldn't expect to see a universe at all.
Like YRM would agree, if there was Santa Claus, we would expect to see a Universe. And we do. Therefore Santa Claus is real.

Gotta love circular reasoning. "Universe is real because of god, god is real because the universe is."
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #61 on: July 19, 2014, 04:28:48 PM »
Still here. Challenge is still up for the grab.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #62 on: July 24, 2014, 09:43:40 PM »
Got a three day weekend. Nice window to prove your god.

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline frank callaway

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2014, 01:06:10 PM »
It's a matter of perception, a paradigm shift really... one could say that all there IS, is proof of the existence of God.  So then, let's define this "God"... but that's the sticky wicket... because a God defined is a God dethroned.
When a great genius appears in the world you may know him by this sign; that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.

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Online One Above All

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2014, 01:10:20 PM »
one could say that all there IS, is proof of the existence of God.

I want to point this out before theists go batshit with the above statement:
One (not me) could say that... but one (again, not me) would be wrong. The fact that existence exists is proof of the existence of existence. Nothing more, nothing less. It's a non-sequitur to conclude anything else.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2014, 10:53:31 PM »
It's a matter of perception, a paradigm shift really... one could say that all there IS, is proof of the existence of God.  So then, let's define this "God"... but that's the sticky wicket... because a God defined is a God dethroned.

Great post. I always liked the quote "The internet, a place where god's and religions come to die"

Cheers

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2014, 11:00:16 PM »
just think of the lack of discussions world wide if their was some actual unambiguous proof any theist of any stripe could point to as evidence of god.

thousands of different religions - BOOM; become one, atheists - BOOM; no longer, xian apologetics- BOOM; no need, WWGHA - BOOM answered.....
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #67 on: July 26, 2014, 09:59:58 AM »
just think of the lack of discussions world wide if their was some actual unambiguous proof any theist of any stripe could point to as evidence of god.

thousands of different religions - BOOM; become one, atheists - BOOM; no longer, xian apologetics- BOOM; no need, WWGHA - BOOM answered.....

Too bad God ain't real and there is no proof otherwise.

I like to sit back and watch as theist fail utterly on this.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #68 on: July 26, 2014, 11:26:09 AM »
   Funny how these threads go.  No matter what the topic, "prove that god exists" may as well be the topic.  Really, it is the same for theists, if they follow the logic - prove that god doesn't exist is their only gotcha.  None of us on any side can.

   So the real debate, IMO, is which side is more reasonable, more rational, more tolerant, more looking at the broad picture of humanity's survival.  As atheists, I like to think, we win easily.  So many theists in so many different directions, so sure of themselves, and not only unwilling to look at another person's conclusions about life, but in too many occasions willing to assail that person and their beliefs.  If the worldwide roles were different, and some 2 - 16 % (footnote) of the population were theists, and a vast majority atheists, I believe the theists would be safer as the minority than atheists in the current situation.

(footnote) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_atheism
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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #69 on: July 26, 2014, 11:30:47 AM »
Really, it is the same for theists, if they follow the logic - prove that god doesn't exist is their only gotcha.  None of us on any side can.

Keep telling yourself that. Ask a theist to define "god" in a clear, concise manner, using terms that don't depend on personal interpretation. I guarantee you that the definition either makes the being described irrelevant (in which case Occam's razor takes over), or impossible (in which case the being has been disproved).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2014, 06:53:13 PM »
Really, it is the same for theists, if they follow the logic - prove that god doesn't exist is their only gotcha.  None of us on any side can.

Keep telling yourself that. Ask a theist to define "god" in a clear, concise manner, using terms that don't depend on personal interpretation. I guarantee you that the definition either makes the being described irrelevant (in which case Occam's razor takes over), or impossible (in which case the being has been disproved).
I think you already disproved a god, didn't you?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2014, 06:55:57 PM »
I think you already disproved a god, didn't you?

Several, though I only recall two at the moment. One is the omnimax god most monotheistic religions claim is theirs. The other is Lukvance's "god=love" god.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2014, 07:17:37 PM »
I think you already disproved a god, didn't you?

Several, though I only recall two at the moment. One is the omnimax god most monotheistic religions claim is theirs. The other is Lukvance's "god=love" god.

Right. If something is self contradictory, then we don't even need to do much work in the first place :D
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #73 on: July 26, 2014, 08:42:24 PM »
Ask a theist to define "god" in a clear, concise manner, using terms that don't depend on personal interpretation.

        So One, let's talk about the definition of a god.  We atheists logically show that we should not have to disprove every single defined imaginary god, so the burden of proof is on theists.  But, in my argument using wiki numbers, let's use 2-16 % of the world population as atheist or non-religious.  We'll go with 8%.  At this posting, the world population is roughly 7,249,574,774.  That means about 6,669,608,792 people (92%) are theists.

        With the typical disagreements of the defined god, how many definitions do you suppose there are?  If we can get tolerance of each other's belief as the main debate, that tolerance of people's gods indeed seems easier than disproof.  You recall disproving two so far.  Actually, the last sentence in your signature says it best - "We choose our own gods."
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #74 on: July 26, 2014, 09:16:46 PM »
Umm, I'd say for every two or three families, even in the same religion, the definition varies a little.

So,
Number of religions, times sects, times one-third of the population in each sect.

Lots.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #75 on: July 26, 2014, 09:48:03 PM »
<snip> Lots.

Lot's what? His daughters? His Wife? Tell me man, I'm hangin' out here!

 ;)

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #76 on: July 26, 2014, 09:55:48 PM »
<snip> Lots.

Lot's what? His daughters? His Wife? Tell me man, I'm hangin' out here!

 ;)
Haha. Lots of definitions, I should say.

And I try to have correct grammar, and would not write "Lots" instead of "Lot's" if I meant the latter.

Your point is moot, angel imposter.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #77 on: July 26, 2014, 11:23:45 PM »
god is all that is good - huh am I some kinda awesome theists trickster or not, please, please not too many darwins at once.
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #78 on: July 27, 2014, 12:37:48 AM »
Not baggin your grammar dude. But these things keep me up at night like, do you think Lot liked salt before his poor wife was turned into a life sized kitchen condiment? Or maybe he preferred it more afterwards! It's important questions like this, that are missing from the bible.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #79 on: July 27, 2014, 03:13:15 AM »
With the typical disagreements of the defined god, how many definitions do you suppose there are?

One god per every person that is a believer, or has been a believer, or will become a believer. However, all these definitions will fall under the two categories I mentioned: irrelevant, or impossible.

You recall disproving two so far.

I recall disproving several, but can only recall two particular definitions which I have disproved.

Actually, the last sentence in your signature says it best - "We choose our own gods."

Did you know you're the first one to mention that sentence directly to me? At least that I can recall.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline frank callaway

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #80 on: July 28, 2014, 03:18:22 PM »
We agree that to “prove” the existence of “god” we need to first define “god”.  I’ll ask the OP to define this god he is seeking proof of, but I’m quite certain that I’ll agree with the OP, that there is no such god.  If I’m asked to give my definition of “god” I will not… as I already stated every positive definition is deniable.   And then there’s the question of “what do you mean by proof”…?  If it’s rock solid certainty you want, then there’s almost nothing but our own existence that we can “prove” to ourselves.  For example, we take each other’s consciousness on faith, because we have to; there is no test of its existence.  Most scientists in the field believe that consciousness arises from the complex interaction of non-conscious parts (firing neurons).  But even IF we can understand the nature of this complexity, we still won’t be able to prove it produces consciousness.  Yet, I totally believe that everyone has an inner life, a subjective experience, a sense of self… but I cannot prove that.  Sorry to digress, but there's all kinds of stuff we believe but cannot prove, for some... "god" happens to be one of them.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #81 on: August 08, 2014, 08:53:33 PM »
Oh wow, sorry, I'd forgotten that you accepted.

We both agree on at least the basics: Omnipotent, Omnipresent, Omni whatever.

This excludes greek gods and such, where even the first god was created from "something", "somehow". It would be no good to debate those gods, so lets also go for EternalTM.

The proof (evidence) is specified in my opening post, please refer to it.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2014, 09:31:36 PM »
Unm, anyone?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2014, 10:28:21 PM »
We agree that to “prove” the existence of “god” we need to first define “god”.  I’ll ask the OP to define this god he is seeking proof of, but I’m quite certain that I’ll agree with the OP, that there is no such god.  If I’m asked to give my definition of “god” I will not… as I already stated every positive definition is deniable.   And then there’s the question of “what do you mean by proof”…?  If it’s rock solid certainty you want, then there’s almost nothing but our own existence that we can “prove” to ourselves.  For example, we take each other’s consciousness on faith, because we have to; there is no test of its existence.  Most scientists in the field believe that consciousness arises from the complex interaction of non-conscious parts (firing neurons).  But even IF we can understand the nature of this complexity, we still won’t be able to prove it produces consciousness.  Yet, I totally believe that everyone has an inner life, a subjective experience, a sense of self… but I cannot prove that.  Sorry to digress, but there's all kinds of stuff we believe but cannot prove, for some... "god" happens to be one of them.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22329762.700-consciousness-onoff-switch-discovered-deep-in-brain.html#.U-bmOp9xK2k

If other animal species have a claustrum, the implications could be incredible. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2014, 10:40:33 PM »
I thought something as Omni everything as god and one that works thru humans everyday thru miracles and guidance and answering prayer.... and one that has left a written manual describing itself with millions of churches and religions in his honour should be a relatively easy thing to prove?

yet frank is already opening the doors to solipsism as in - how do we know anything at all...
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #85 on: August 13, 2014, 08:05:15 AM »
Frank, I know youre active. At least tell us to wait if you're not going to address.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline 1makesitwrong

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Re: Challenge to any theist to prove existence of god.
« Reply #86 on: August 14, 2014, 04:20:00 PM »
If your god is from the christian bible and it said that it flooded the whole world but you can't provide any geological proof for a world wide flood. Isn't that proof that your god doesn't exist. I mean if you can't provide the proof for the largest mass murder in history, doesn't that disprove your gods existence?
The bible was pronounced dead at the scene