Author Topic: Nowhere to Run and Hide  (Read 3042 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #174 on: July 18, 2014, 04:33:18 PM »
junebug, I honest to goodness do not understand the problem. ...

And as long as she can keep you in this state, she can continue to sling abuse at you.  It's win-win for her.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #175 on: July 19, 2014, 12:11:23 AM »
^^^I seem to have something of a masochistic streak when it comes to junebug. I don't really get it myself, but the evidence is all over the place.

I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion about any number of "what can be done by concerned people who want to take action to make the world a little better" topics. I'm considering where to direct my energies for at least a meaningful portion of my remaining working years, and discussions like that help me sort through the many options that I could pursue and narrow my focus to the issues that ultimately matter the most to me.

If the problems facing any given sector of humanity were easy to solve, they wouldn't still be problems, they'd be solved already. The issues challenging humanity are complex and interwoven with other issues of culture, location, technology (and access to it), education (and access to it), resources and the means to process resources with end products available to citizens of the countries of origin, deeply entrenched biases and assumptions of worth and value measured against cultural norms that are by no means universal (I could no more survive in a desert than a nomad could function in my office), political will, unequal power distribution based on qualities that may or may not be of merit to the circumstances. None of these factors can be dismissed or ignored in discussion of large scale effort at solutions, and all are beyond the reach of a group of loosely affiliated members of an internet discussion forum.

But I also think that small  things matter. Example: I can't stop the massive amounts of waste going into landfills, but I can try to limit my participation. There are any number of ways I'm willing to, and interested in, talking about what can be done by individuals to limit the harm we inflict, how we can be aware of the consequences of our choices, what various organizations are doing already - and who is doing something awesome particularly well is of real interest to me - I'm all on board to have that discussion.

I'm even willing to discuss these issues on a larger scale - theoreticals I suppose, but say .... discussing government enforced population limits versus mass starvation? What other options are there to address the consequences of the trajectory of the current population growth? Food, water, habitable space, basic sanitation and medical care? We can't do it for the number of people on the planet right now - what happens in 50 years when that number is roughly double what it is today? That's a defined issue with a clear idea of what I'm interested in talking about.

Hope springs eternal? Masochist? Masochist with a streak of chirpy optimism[1]?
 1. This one appeals to me for some reason. But I have been drinking a bit (I'm rather a lightweight with the upside that I fall asleep long before I can cause any real trouble) so I wouldn't take me all that seriously if I were you. I certainly don't.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #176 on: July 19, 2014, 04:52:31 AM »
That's not what you asked me.  There isn't even a "?". 

Simple scenario:  There is a single small life-raft available on a sinking ship.  The ship holds 1000 people.  The life-raft can hold at most a dozen.

I don't see it as morally wrong to use the life-raft to save some people.  Junebug would apparently prefer that nobody be saved.

I said;
Junebug prefers there be enough life boats.  Can't you comprehend any thing?

Weak very weak.  Not impressed at all. :blank:

Stop your ad hominem and I will stop embarrassing you.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #177 on: July 19, 2014, 05:02:46 AM »
^^^I seem to have something of a masochistic streak when it comes to junebug. I don't really get it myself, but the evidence is all over the place.

I'm willing to have a reasonable discussion about any number of "what can be done by concerned people who want to take action to make the world a little better" topics. I'm considering where to direct my energies for at least a meaningful portion of my remaining working years, and discussions like that help me sort through the many options that I could pursue and narrow my focus to the issues that ultimately matter the most to me.

If the problems facing any given sector of humanity were easy to solve, they wouldn't still be problems, they'd be solved already. The issues challenging humanity are complex and interwoven with other issues of culture, location, technology (and access to it), education (and access to it), resources and the means to process resources with end products available to citizens of the countries of origin, deeply entrenched biases and assumptions of worth and value measured against cultural norms that are by no means universal (I could no more survive in a desert than a nomad could function in my office), political will, unequal power distribution based on qualities that may or may not be of merit to the circumstances. None of these factors can be dismissed or ignored in discussion of large scale effort at solutions, and all are beyond the reach of a group of loosely affiliated members of an internet discussion forum.

But I also think that small  things matter. Example: I can't stop the massive amounts of waste going into landfills, but I can try to limit my participation. There are any number of ways I'm willing to, and interested in, talking about what can be done by individuals to limit the harm we inflict, how we can be aware of the consequences of our choices, what various organizations are doing already - and who is doing something awesome particularly well is of real interest to me - I'm all on board to have that discussion.

I'm even willing to discuss these issues on a larger scale - theoreticals I suppose, but say .... discussing government enforced population limits versus mass starvation? What other options are there to address the consequences of the trajectory of the current population growth? Food, water, habitable space, basic sanitation and medical care? We can't do it for the number of people on the planet right now - what happens in 50 years when that number is roughly double what it is today? That's a defined issue with a clear idea of what I'm interested in talking about.

Hope springs eternal? Masochist? Masochist with a streak of chirpy optimism[1]?
 1. This one appeals to me for some reason. But I have been drinking a bit (I'm rather a lightweight with the upside that I fall asleep long before I can cause any real trouble) so I wouldn't take me all that seriously if I were you. I certainly don't.

I'm tickling you with feathers.  ;)  I loved that remark.  You said it's like getting beat up with feathers.  I still get tickled when I recall it. :laugh:

I gave you some good ideas for the growing population.  Did you miss that post? 

That's all I want to do is work together.  I am not useless and neither is anybody here.

Have a Drink for me. :P
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #178 on: July 19, 2014, 09:49:28 AM »
I gave you some good ideas for the growing population.  Did you miss that post? 
Apparently. Can you link to it?

Quote
That's all I want to do is work together.  I am not useless and neither is anybody here.
I don't think you're useless, but you might be even more idealistic than I am.

Quote
Have a Drink for me. :P
I can barely manage the drinks I have for me. You're on your own  ;)
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2014, 10:15:55 AM »
That's not what you asked me.  There isn't even a "?".

Guess it wasn't clear enough; I figured it would be obvious.

So, given that was my intent, are you willing to address the scenario I actually gave?  Because in that scenario you said that rather than save anyone, you would prefer there to be more life-rafts.  Preferring there to be more life-rafts won't save anyone in the situation I described.  It's just wishful thinking, and very irresponsible.

Care to address it now that you know what I meant?
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Offline Jag

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #180 on: July 19, 2014, 01:59:24 PM »
^^^...if there are enough life boats for everyone, what's to discuss?  :?

That's an example of why I don't know what is supposed to be under discussion in this thread - I can't figure out what's being asked.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #181 on: July 19, 2014, 02:02:15 PM »
Well I mean, if we're in a position to make enough rafts for everyone, then that makes sense to try for.  I was just trying to challenge junebug's idea that saving some people is morally worse than saving no people - hence a scenario where the # of life rafts is fixed.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2014, 02:05:27 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Jag

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #182 on: July 19, 2014, 07:51:07 PM »
I understood what you were saying. I can't figure out the point in general though.

Is junebug taking the position that ...atheists are standing in the way of saving everyone?

If the resources to save everyone are available, I don't think anyone has tried to argue against doing so, have they?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #183 on: July 19, 2014, 08:00:35 PM »
Is junebug taking the position that ...atheists are standing in the way of saving everyone?

I don't think so.  What I understood, is that she objects to any plan that does not include saving everyone on the planet, 4-5 billion years from now.  If so, then that's silly from the outset, as the vast, vast majority of humans will have lived and already died by then.  We're not immortal, so "saving everyone" isn't possible anyway.

If the resources to save everyone are available, I don't think anyone has tried to argue against doing so, have they?

No.  Nobody has.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #184 on: July 20, 2014, 09:56:14 AM »
Is junebug taking the position that ...atheists are standing in the way of saving everyone?

I don't think so.  What I understood, is that she objects to any plan that does not include saving everyone on the planet, 4-5 billion years from now.  If so, then that's silly from the outset, as the vast, vast majority of humans will have lived and already died by then.  We're not immortal, so "saving everyone" isn't possible anyway.

If the resources to save everyone are available, I don't think anyone has tried to argue against doing so, have they?

No.  Nobody has.

Thank you Azdgari, that's what I was getting from this as well.

Like I said in an earlier post (and probably a few other places as well) I'm perfectly willing to talk about how to make the world a better place (and yes, I know that phrase is extremely vague and highly subjective) provided we're actually discussing thing that can be achieved. I'm not going to debate a scenario so far into the future it becomes meaningless - we cannot predict anything about humans billions of years in advance. Evolution marches ever onward.

Frankly, I don't worry overmuch about the long-term fate of humanity. I have my hands plenty full trying to find ways to be effective in the here and now.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #185 on: July 20, 2014, 03:36:03 PM »
I'm not going to debate a scenario so far into the future it becomes meaningless - we cannot predict anything about humans billions of years in advance. Evolution marches ever onward.

It's not only pointless, but potentially dangerous as well, if we start to think along the lines of "well in a million years this might happen, so we should do this now to prepare for it".  Like you say, evolution marches on, and taking specific steps now may cause us problems in future.

Although of course, then there's the possibility of stagnation and analysis paralysis and never doing anything for fear of consequences, but best way round that I think is to only try to plan for the next fifty years or so, and to think very carefully about the potential implications of any action.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #186 on: July 21, 2014, 06:18:41 AM »
That's not what you asked me.  There isn't even a "?".

Guess it wasn't clear enough; I figured it would be obvious.

So, given that was my intent, are you willing to address the scenario I actually gave?  Because in that scenario you said that rather than save anyone, you would prefer there to be more life-rafts.  Preferring there to be more life-rafts won't save anyone in the situation I described.  It's just wishful thinking, and very irresponsible.

Care to address it now that you know what I meant?

Drawing straws would be fair.

I still think the idiots should have taken more rafts.  That's what stupid arrogance looks like. &)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #187 on: July 21, 2014, 06:39:30 AM »
I gave you some good ideas for the growing population.  Did you miss that post? 
Apparently. Can you link to it?

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26984.29.html
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #188 on: July 21, 2014, 07:49:19 AM »

No third world country is even close to being over populated is it?  Many do not make it to 5 years old.  They're life expectancy is probably 50/55.   That's because we don't share enough of the planet's resources with them.  It's disgusting when you think how much this country wastes.
 
I don't think it's evil but I don't think it's right to tell a family how many kids they can have.  We figure it out as a society w/o fear working for common needs.  We don't need an Ingle's, local grocery store, every 1/4 mile.  We don't need thousands of different department stores.  Things can be ordered on line.  Lot's of people working filling orders.  That would make room for a lot more humans and not put people out of work.  They should actually be well paid employees because it would be a booming success for all that money to be in 1 place instead of scattered around.

I also believe when it gets to the point that we are getting low on resources a lot of people will do what's right according to a society that treasures every life on the planet.


Referring me to this (trimmed for relevance) post doesn't address anything I said. The last line is  lovely idea but bears no resemblance to reality playing out right here and now.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #189 on: July 21, 2014, 08:27:03 AM »
Drawing straws would be fair.

Okay, so you do find it better to save some than to save none.  Sweet.  That was what I was unclear about, given how this thread has gone.  I'm glad we agree on this point!

I still think the idiots should have taken more rafts.  That's what stupid arrogance looks like. &)

Oh, for sure.  A single life-raft on a ship of 1000 people would be incredibly stupid.  But in the dying-Earth analogy, we may not be in a position to save a larger proportion of people than that.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #190 on: July 21, 2014, 03:18:07 PM »
Drawing straws would be fair.

Okay, so you do find it better to save some than to save none.  Sweet.  That was what I was unclear about, given how this thread has gone.  I'm glad we agree on this point!

I still think the idiots should have taken more rafts.  That's what stupid arrogance looks like. &)

Oh, for sure.  A single life-raft on a ship of 1000 people would be incredibly stupid.  But in the dying-Earth analogy, we may not be in a position to save a larger proportion of people than that.
Agreed. We literally don't have the capability to support 7,000,000,000 + people without the resources of Earth. Unless you want to strap earth to the rocket ship. :D
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #191 on: August 22, 2014, 05:34:59 AM »
I think everybody missed the point on this one.  I do not wish to be an atheist.  I really really don't want to be religious.  They both lack self fulfillment for me.  The middle the gray area is called SBNR.  That's me.

I apologize for the delay.  I really don't want to get into why I've been scarce but it's not because of anything anybody said here at all.  It's personal.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #192 on: August 22, 2014, 05:55:21 AM »
I think everybody missed the point on this one.  I do not wish to be an atheist.  I really really don't want to be religious.  They both lack self fulfillment for me.  The middle the gray area is called SBNR.  That's me.

You misspelled "the middle the (sic) gray area does not exist".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #193 on: August 23, 2014, 04:56:55 AM »
The middle the gray area is called SBNR.  That's me.

You mean, the SRIR?  Self-Righteous-Independently-Religious?
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #194 on: August 23, 2014, 08:38:44 PM »
The middle the gray area is called SBNR.  That's me.

You mean, the SRIR?  Self-Righteous-Independently-Religious?

lol  :laugh:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #195 on: August 24, 2014, 05:46:27 AM »
I think in 2 million years we will know.  I can't remember the type of fuel they were using on that documentary but it was smart.  Little burst would take you quite far.

A large part of the ship is a green house, not metal. 

With the greatest respect I don't see how you, a scientific man, does not think scientist will figure it out.  I also see the whole wide world
working as 1.  Combining resources and knowledge. 

So no it's still disgusting to me that you don't even try to think of ways to save us all.  How eagerly you accept the death of billions. 

Just because I do not know exact figures does not mean I can not understand the extraordinary task this will be.  Come on now.

Good try though to discredit me.  I'll give you that.  I have truth on my side.  You can not defeat truth.

I've read this whole train-wreck, gritted my teeth through Junebug's smug self-righteousness and mangling of simply logic, but I could not let this past.

You say in two million years humans will have the technology to build ships big enough to accommodate every person on the planet. With a current population of seven billion, doubling every 50 years, the population of earth with double forty thousand times over two million years. I don't have a calculator big enough to work that out, but it seems to me that you'd have SO MANY PEOPLE by then, that it might be easier to just tow the entire planet away from the sun, ignoring the fact that the sun won't be doing anything for at least another FOUR BILLION YEARS.

And considering that the surface area of earth (including open water and the poles) is measured at 570 trillion square metres (with an adult human taking up one square metre of space whilst standing), there wouldn't be ANY standing room left after two million years of population growth.

Do you realise how retarded you sound? A population of 7 billion doubling every 50 years for just 500 years will equal over 7 trillion people. Now I know that's a big number, but just try and wrap your brain about what you're really saying here. It's utter gibberish.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #196 on: August 24, 2014, 08:03:50 AM »
I think in 2 million years we will know.  I can't remember the type of fuel they were using on that documentary but it was smart.  Little burst would take you quite far.

A large part of the ship is a green house, not metal. 

With the greatest respect I don't see how you, a scientific man, does not think scientist will figure it out.  I also see the whole wide world
working as 1.  Combining resources and knowledge. 

So no it's still disgusting to me that you don't even try to think of ways to save us all.  How eagerly you accept the death of billions. 

Just because I do not know exact figures does not mean I can not understand the extraordinary task this will be.  Come on now.

Good try though to discredit me.  I'll give you that.  I have truth on my side.  You can not defeat truth.

I've read this whole train-wreck, gritted my teeth through Junebug's smug self-righteousness and mangling of simply logic, but I could not let this past.

You say in two million years humans will have the technology to build ships big enough to accommodate every person on the planet. With a current population of seven billion, doubling every 50 years, the population of earth with double forty thousand times over two million years. I don't have a calculator big enough to work that out, but it seems to me that you'd have SO MANY PEOPLE by then, that it might be easier to just tow the entire planet away from the sun, ignoring the fact that the sun won't be doing anything for at least another FOUR BILLION YEARS.

And considering that the surface area of earth (including open water and the poles) is measured at 570 trillion square metres (with an adult human taking up one square metre of space whilst standing), there wouldn't be ANY standing room left after two million years of population growth.

Do you realise how retarded you sound? A population of 7 billion doubling every 50 years for just 500 years will equal over 7 trillion people. Now I know that's a big number, but just try and wrap your brain about what you're really saying here. It's utter gibberish.

OMG and you call me condescending.  Good thing I'm above smiting people.  Call me a retard and you can't even spell, realize or use the proper form of the word simple, lmao.


Point is religions and atheism have an end of world story to tell.  I'm not buying any of them.  The sky is not falling.  If this earth fails it will be because of humans having no respect for their Home, pollution, that is a real problem that needs to be solved now. 

I would like to see predictions of other stars deaths.  Then maybe I will believe the scientist know what they are talking about. 

I was only condescending to blue because he was sooooooooo condescending to me.  You got to smite him too.  If that's really how ya feel.  Then smite yourself for this post.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #197 on: August 24, 2014, 08:08:27 AM »
The middle the gray area is called SBNR.  That's me.

You mean, the SRIR?  Self-Righteous-Independently-Religious?

No smarty pants it's spiritual.  I am spiritual you can drop the BNR for me.  It's not necessary to describe me.

I am surprised you didn't get a smite from the condescending policeman natlegend.  He's on patrol.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #198 on: August 24, 2014, 10:16:12 AM »
Case in point re: the self-righeousness part, if not the religious part.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #199 on: August 24, 2014, 12:19:10 PM »
Nat's a she, if I recall correctly.

So she slapped some math on the table...and then you change the subject and say "Oh I don't buy the end of world stories..."

Scientists KNOW that either the sun, asteroid, or a freak gamma ray burst could fry the planet. It's not a story, its a fact. We know stars go through a cycle, and we have seen this cycle through every single star. There's no reason to believe our sun won't fry us.

As for other threats, they are also real. Asteroids can pretty much pulverize all life, if not the entire planet. Gamma rays will rip through our atmosphere before we can say "Get to the spaceship!"

If there is any point in the future where we develope a mass space travel vehicle,  more problems will rise. If there is so much technology, what is stopping population from also skyrocketting? What has happened in the past when technology emerged? Longer lives, more lives.

So, unless you suggest strapping rockets to the earth and jetting away, no such spaceship will be built for trillions of people.

We CAN however, take a wide, diverse sample of all types of animals, then take a few of each, and commence repopulation elsewhere.

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And... you know we can't live that long to observe a star and watch it dying? The physics is there. We have seen stars die; supernovas. It's simple.

Star runs out of fusion --> gravity is stronger --> star collapses by gravity --> shoots off a huge explosion from extreme pressure at the point of collapse. Oh and that's large stars, our star has a slightly different one, since it's not as big.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2014, 12:23:41 PM by Defiance »
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #200 on: August 24, 2014, 12:24:22 PM »
Nat's a she, if I recall correctly.

Same.

<snip>
We CAN however, take a wide, diverse sample of all types of animals, then take a few of each, and commence repopulation elsewhere.

Yeah, see, but junebug72 just prefers that we could save everyone. Somehow that means reality won't interfere. Seriously, read her replies to Azdgari's scenario and you'll see the extent of her religious delusion.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #201 on: August 24, 2014, 12:26:06 PM »
Nat's a she, if I recall correctly.

Same.

<snip>
We CAN however, take a wide, diverse sample of all types of animals, then take a few of each, and commence repopulation elsewhere.

Yeah, see, but junebug72 just prefers that we could save everyone. Somehow that means reality won't interfere. Seriously, read her replies to Azdgari's scenario and you'll see the extent of her religious spiritual delusion.
Fixed. :D
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Nowhere to Run and Hide
« Reply #202 on: August 24, 2014, 01:36:11 PM »
If this earth fails it will be because of humans having no respect for their Home, pollution, that is a real problem that needs to be solved now.
It's funny that you bring up pollution, because I'm pretty certain that pollution was not considered a real problem that needed to be solved back in the 1800s.  They had other real problems that needed to be solved now.  So they largely ignored the consequences of increased pollution.

And now we're sorta getting extra-screwed.  So maybe a little forward-thinking isn't such a bad deal, eh?

Quote
I would like to see predictions of other stars deaths.  Then maybe I will believe the scientist know what they are talking about. 
Funnily enough, the death of a star is one of the few gargantuan cosmic events that we actually have direct observational data on.  The Crab Nebula is perhaps the most famous:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_nebula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1054

That is humanity seeing a star die and humanity watching the remnants of it's death.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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