100 formal apologies to about everyone for everything from catholic church

[eh!]

That a lot of sorry's;

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_apologies_made_by_Pope_John_Paul_II

[dloubet]

Apologies are worth little if you don't actually DO anything about the wrongs you've done.

[natlegend]

Too little too late, Popey.

[One Above All]

Apologies are worth little if you don't actually DO anything about the wrongs you've done.

My thoughts exactly.

PJPII: I'm so sorry your child was abused by a catholic priest. I assure you, we feel your pain.
Parents: A-Are you gonna do anything about it? Maybe punish the priest and try to find others who did the same thing?
PJPII: Fuck no! Do you have any idea what it would do to the church's reputation and power if we fired half our staff?

[natlegend]

PJPII: I'm so sorry your child was abused by a catholic priest. I assure you, we feel your pain.
Parents: A-Are you gonna do anything about it? Maybe punish the priest and try to find others who did the same thing?
PJPII: Fuck no! Do you have any idea what it would do to the church's reputation and power if we fired half our staff?

^^^ Er, is that for real??

[One Above All]

^^^ Er, is that for real??

It's how I picture it would go, but with more subtlety from the Pope. However, the "half our staff" figure was pulled out of thin air. I doubt there are that many pedophile priests.

[12 Monkeys]

Funny how a child rapist hiding behind religious garb is treated differently from the sick guy driving the ice cream truck or the camp counsellor who do the same thing. The church should lead by example and move toward working with the justice system and move to criminalize and incarcerate these sick criminals.

[Philosopher_at_large]

Apologies are worth little if you don't actually DO anything about the wrongs you've done.

Well, not executing people for Heresy or amassing an army to invade countries and supplant their state religion with Catholicism,  is a pretty good policy change I'd say. If that isn't "doing something" about those wrongs, I don't know what is. Those practices no longer take place, and we should be glad for it.

However, in the case of the sex abuse scandal, there WAS no policy change, ONLY apologies. the only "apology" I will accept in that case is a round of firings, arrests, extraditions, open inquiry, and a policy of full transparency and cooperation with international law enforcement. Period, end of discussion. short of that, it's all lip service.   

[12 Monkeys]

PaT,why do you think the church was held to a different standard when it comes to child sexual abuse?  A child predator not hidden by the church should and is incarcerated when caught,not a priest,why is that?

[Philosopher_at_large]

PaT,why do you think the church was held to a different standard when it comes to child sexual abuse?  A child predator not hidden by the church should and is incarcerated when caught,not a priest,why is that?

Because the Vatican is a nation state and can claim soveign immunity

[eh!]

^ That state needs a good cluster bombing.

[Philosopher_at_large]

^ That state needs a good cluster bombing.

Yes, lets bomb Italy for neglect and child endangerment, that's a perfectly reasonable solution.

If you aren't going to take this seriously you should stop pretending to be outraged.

[eh!]

I can't take you seriously. and italy is not the vatican . your remark that the "policy change" to stop all those crimes you listed is pure spin. you disgust me.

[Philosopher_at_large]

I can't take you seriously. and italy is not the vatican . your remark that the "policy change" to stop all those crimes you listed is pure spin. you disgust me.

I said nothing of the kind, I said there was NO policy change, only lip service. I went on to say that the only acceptable action from the Vatican is a policy of full transparency and cooperation with international authorities and a round of firings and extraditions.

I don't know what about that disgusted you.

[eh!]

[quote 
Well, not executing people for Heresy or amassing an army to invade countries and supplant their state religion with Catholicism,  is a pretty good policy change I'd say.

[eh!]

Quote PAL. policy change my ass. the church is a follower not a leader and will do ANYTHING to pretend to be relevant .

[Philosopher_at_large]

Quote PAL. policy change my ass. the church is a follower not a leader and will do ANYTHING to pretend to be relevant .

Where did I say that the church was a leader or anything about its relevence? I said that the church nolonger executes people for heracy or supplants nations but it DOES continue to consider sex abuse cases an "internal matter of state" you're getting upset about things that I never said or implied.

What's more, this was in response to another member who said that apologies are worthless until something is done to correct the behavior. In the first two cases, they apologised and they STOPED DOING IT. Not so in the case of their "Internal affair" policy.

[eh!]

Granted i messed the quote button yr quote unchanged is up there ^^ The next post was me. did you ignore the bit where denied the murders etc were not a policy change....yes.

anyhoo more to the point. the church only changed there policy in proprtion to the rise of humanism and rational secular thinking literacy and education. when the people said fuk killing for the church the church said stop the killing. inquisition whatever. if the church still had the power over the population it craves there would be no education no separation of church and state no human rights no science ..... we would still be in the dark ages cos that's where the church works best, you sir a spinning it to look like the church led us out of the dark ages they just recognized humanity wasn't gonna stay there... thank you Galileo, thank you Darwin thank you all those that shine the light of reason and push the scum sucking church further into irrelevance .

[Philosopher_at_large]

Granted i messed the quote button yr quote unchanged is up there ^^ The next post was me. did you ignore the bit where denied the murders etc were not a policy change....yes.

anyhoo more to the point. the church only changed there policy in proprtion to the rise of humanism and rational secular thinking literacy and education. when the people said fuk killing for the church the church said stop the killing. inquisition whatever. if the church still had the power over the population it craves there would be no education no separation of church and state no human rights no science ..... we would still be in the dark ages cos that's where the church works best, you sir a spinning it to look like the church led us out of the dark ages they just recognized humanity wasn't gonna stay there... thank you Galileo, thank you Darwin thank you all those that shine the light of reason and push the scum sucking church further into irrelevance .

I diddnt see anywhere where you said anything about murderer, you quoted me as having said that thechurch nolonger executes people or siezes territory and then insisted that the church was not a leader when I never said or implied that it was.


To your second point. I want you to quote me as having even remotely implied that the church led us out of the dark ages in this post. It doesn't even have to be a direct quote, quote me as having even remotely implied it. I said that they stopped executing people and siezing territories and that that was a good thing, and I stand by that. If that can be construed as a noble and providential act, id like to know how.

Youdont have to convince me that the church reacts in its own self interest, I just got done lambasting it for putting its immage ahead of the welfare of children and STILL not doing anythign about it once they were found out. You think I regard them as having led us out of the dark ages??? Again, you're getting upset about things I never said or implied.

[Defiance]

PaT,why do you think the church was held to a different standard when it comes to child sexual abuse?  A child predator not hidden by the church should and is incarcerated when caught,not a priest,why is that?

Because the Vatican is a nation state and can claim soveign immunity

That's a shame.

[eh!]

try again, you said;

"Well, not executing people for Heresy or amassing an army to invade countries and supplant their state religion with Catholicism,  is a pretty good policy change I'd say."


then you said;

"...I said there was NO policy change, ..."


you can't call something a policy change then say you never said it was a policy change.


and  you said;



" If that isn't "doing something" about those wrongs, I don't know what is. "

to which i drew the inference that by 'doing something" the church was showing some leadership which i called you on which you replied;


"and then insisted that the church was not a leader when I never said or implied that it was."


i think yr a slippery snake trying to make the church look less than guilty on the things it was externally forced to change against it's will and the things it has not yet changed you trot out your indignation, and when it is forced to change it's "policy" on handling child offender cases you will no doubt claim something on the lines of;

" If that isn't "doing something" about those wrongs, I don't know what is. "

and replace this phrase;

"Well, not executing people for Heresy or amassing an army to invade countries and supplant their state religion with Catholicism,  is a pretty good policy change I'd say."

with this one (you in the fuiture);

"Well, not covering up cases of sexual abuse against children or providing safe haven for serial offenders,  is a pretty good policy change I'd say."

you are the fukin anti-krist.

[Philosopher_at_large]

PaT,why do you think the church was held to a different standard when it comes to child sexual abuse?  A child predator not hidden by the church should and is incarcerated when caught,not a priest,why is that?

Because the Vatican is a nation state and can claim soveign immunity

That's a shame.

I couldn't agree more!

[Philosopher_at_large]

Eh,

Not excecuting people for herasy and not supplanting nations IS a good step in the right direction and it is a policy channge, and that policy change does constitute doing something about it. but your inference that the church showed some kind of leadership in making that change is unfounded. I don't consider it an act of leadership to say that we ought not execute people for crimes against the state. Its the Chris rock example of low expectations. You're not SUPPOSED to execute people for heracy! The leadership or lack thereof wasn't even considered in the response I gave, I simply pointed out that the pope had apologolized for practices that the church had long since stopped, but that the practice of covering up abuse and keeping it in house was still going on.

When I said that there was no policy change I was reffering to the abuse scandal.

To your third point...

How have I made the church look less guilty? By saying that they don't execute people anymore? That's a ringing endorsementof the institution to you? By not accepting their apology when unaccompanied by a lack of action? It sounds to me like you just assumed an alteriar motive on my part right off the bat which would explain why you've constantly argued against points that I did not make and words that I never said.

You aren't addressing anything that I'm actually saying, you're just mad.

To your last point...

You're saying that, if the church stopped covering up abuse and giving safe harbor to pedophiles and bishops who enabled them, saying that that is a good step in the right direction would make you the antichrist?

...... HOW WOULD THAT NOT BE A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION??? COVERING UP ABUSE AND HARBORING AND ENABLING PEDOPHILE PRIESTS ***IS NINTY PERCENT OF THE PROBLEM!!!***......

JESUS H. TAPDANCING FUCKIN.... I MEAN C'MON!