Author Topic: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors  (Read 1597 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #116 on: June 30, 2014, 05:47:45 AM »
And who would want to clean up shit for a job. OOA yr utopia is so immature.

Robots. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #117 on: June 30, 2014, 06:10:44 AM »
I note that you have also amended your initial statement - "companies pay more salary as they make more profit" to now just talking about good workers.  What about average workers, or workers who cannot work as fast, due to disability say?

Can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers?  And does it work in reverse (Whoops!  Went to two there, sorry - but both just clarifications of your one point.)
[/quote]

I said 1-2 even 3.  I also asked for some organization.   It would have been easy to make 1 question there.  You don't start sentences with a conjunction. ;)

Your sarcasm there is your problem not mine. 

I am focusing on not taking things personal. ;) ;)

A disabled person should be placed where they can be just as productive as anyone else.  They should be reasonable accommodations made for them. 

If you have average workers you're doing something wrong as the employer.   ;)

I have something in my eye.  :D

 

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #118 on: June 30, 2014, 10:40:47 AM »
And who would want to clean up shit for a job. OOA yr utopia is so immature.

Robots. ;)

Yer robots took ar jahbs!   Dey took ar jahbs!
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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #119 on: June 30, 2014, 11:00:13 AM »
And who would want to clean up shit for a job. OOA yr utopia is so immature.

Robots. ;)

That's another possibility. If nobody wants to do the jobs, make them automatized.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #120 on: June 30, 2014, 11:06:03 AM »
And who would want to clean up shit for a job. OOA yr utopia is so immature.

Robots. ;)

That's another possibility. If nobody wants to do the jobs, make them automatized.
C
Welcome to the automatised utopia.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #121 on: June 30, 2014, 11:13:32 AM »
<snip>
Welcome to the automatised utopia.

Did I say anything else other than how work would be done (or not)? In fact, did I say "nobody would work, ever, regardless of health problems"? Or did I say "people would work because they'd want to"?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Defiance

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #122 on: June 30, 2014, 11:23:36 AM »
<snip>
Welcome to the automatised utopia.

Did I say anything else other than how work would be done (or not)? In fact, did I say "nobody would work, ever, regardless of health problems"? Or did I say "people would work because they'd want to"?
Did I say anything about anything? I put a picture of Wall-E. I don't know why you're so defensive.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Online One Above All

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #123 on: June 30, 2014, 11:24:52 AM »
0
Did I say anything about anything? I put a picture of Wall-E. I don't know why you're so defensive.

Quoted me, so it was in response to me. Said "Welcome to the automatised utopia.", preceded by a negative image. So yes; you did, in fact, say something about something.
EDIT: Oh, and the reason I'm "defensive" is because of my severe allergy to strawmen.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 11:31:53 AM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #124 on: June 30, 2014, 12:05:28 PM »
0
Did I say anything about anything? I put a picture of Wall-E. I don't know why you're so defensive.

Quoted me, so it was in response to me. Said "Welcome to the automatised utopia.", preceded by a negative image. So yes; you did, in fact, say something about something.
EDIT: Oh, and the reason I'm "defensive" is because of my severe allergy to strawmen.
Then you need better medication because I'm not trying to respond to anything. I'm not arguing against what you said. I think you're having an allergic reaction to something else.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Online One Above All

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #125 on: June 30, 2014, 12:14:16 PM »
Then you need better medication because I'm not trying to respond to anything. I'm not arguing against what you said. I think you're having an allergic reaction to something else.

I'm going to assume you're lying to salvage your ego. It's not working, though. If it were, you wouldn't have to lie.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #126 on: June 30, 2014, 01:30:50 PM »
Then you need better medication because I'm not trying to respond to anything. I'm not arguing against what you said. I think you're having an allergic reaction to something else.

I'm going to assume you're lying to salvage your ego. It's not working, though. If it were, you wouldn't have to lie.
No, I'm not lying. You misunderstood the intention of my post. That's all.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Online One Above All

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #127 on: June 30, 2014, 01:34:07 PM »
No, I'm not lying. You misunderstood the intention of my post. That's all.

Then you were being intentionally dishonest, since you quoted my post and were therefore inferring that you were replying to me. Or you have no communication skills. Take your pick.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #128 on: June 30, 2014, 02:18:15 PM »
No, I'm not lying. You misunderstood the intention of my post. That's all.

Then you were being intentionally dishonest, since you quoted my post and were therefore inferring that you were replying to me. Or you have no communication skills. Take your pick.
I'm not being dishonest, and I don't have bad communication skills. I don't want to pick a fight over a useless issue.

You either drop it, or you'll just talk to yourself. Take your pick.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2014, 03:51:33 PM »
I note that you have also amended your initial statement - "companies pay more salary as they make more profit" to now just talking about good workers.  What about average workers, or workers who cannot work as fast, due to disability say?

Can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers?  And does it work in reverse (Whoops!  Went to two there, sorry - but both just clarifications of your one point.)

If you have average workers you're doing something wrong as the employer.

Maybe so.  But you were the one who introduced the concept of good (and hence bad, or average) workers.  So I'll ask again - can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers.

Second question: does it work in reverse?  If companies profits go down, can / should those companies decrease wages?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2014, 06:09:30 PM »
What we should be discussing is what can we agree on?  Anybody want to try?

What do children need to grow healthily?

First they need air, food and water.

Then, they need safety, security and protection.

Then, they need attention, acknowledgment, education and most of all, love.

Then, they need respect, from which they develop self-respect and respect for others.

Then, they need the freedom to become whoever they want to be.


That's Maslow's hierarchy of needs, in my own words, of course.
Junebug (in a darwin):
Quote
YES YES AND...YES


Cool, Junebug.

Maslow's theory was presented originally (in 1943) as speculation, and one can argue about the constituents of the various levels, but his idea that needs are arranged in a hierarchy remains sound.

And on topic, he talks about Utopia in his paper:

Quote
Another peculiar characteristic of the human organism when it is dominated by a certain need is that the whole philosophy of the future tends also to change. For our chronically and extremely hungry man, Utopia can be defined very simply as a place where there is plenty of food. He tends to think that, if only he is guaranteed food for the rest of his life, he will be perfectly happy and will never want anything more. Life itself tends to be defined in terms of eating. Anything else will be defined as unimportant. Freedom, love, community feeling, respect, philosophy, may all be waved aside as fripperies which are useless since they fail to fill the stomach. Such a man may fairly be said to live by bread alone.

I think he exaggerates somewhat; there are plenty of examples of people starving but still behaving with love and respect. But his basic point seems correct; if one has no food, the question of church/state separation is of negligible interest.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 06:12:32 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #131 on: June 30, 2014, 07:18:36 PM »
I note that you have also amended your initial statement - "companies pay more salary as they make more profit" to now just talking about good workers.  What about average workers, or workers who cannot work as fast, due to disability say?

Can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers?  And does it work in reverse (Whoops!  Went to two there, sorry - but both just clarifications of your one point.)

If you have average workers you're doing something wrong as the employer.

Maybe so.  But you were the one who introduced the concept of good (and hence bad, or average) workers.  So I'll ask again - can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers.

Second question: does it work in reverse?  If companies profits go down, can / should those companies decrease wages?

There is no maybe, it's a fact.  Since the blame is on management their pay should get cut first. The last thing a hurting company needs is disgruntled help.  That takes quality out of your product.  I think the last thing that needs to go is worker morale.

I've worked for bad management so I have experience on the matter.  They keep the goofballs, cheap help,  and let their ACE in the Hole go.   A dummy for a manager, took credit for my hard work and even more stupid owner.  They are responsible for worker morale and production.  they are responsible for making sure people are trained properly.

I would say to the employer do what is in your heart to be right.  Those folk should get a raise too, maybe just not as much as an above average worker.

You have to start at the bottom and work your way up.  With the right incentives I just don't think you need to worry about mediocre.  Management should require TEAMWORK.  Just like I am asking for here.

We had boxes full of lenses that could have, should have been donated to the Lions Club :)

Yet the company proclaime Christ
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #132 on: June 30, 2014, 07:34:35 PM »
If everyone just did what i said there would be utopia.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #133 on: June 30, 2014, 09:08:12 PM »
If everyone just did what i said there would be utopia.
No, then you'd be Yahweh and we'd be ancient goat herders.

Not utopia.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #134 on: June 30, 2014, 09:33:16 PM »
I note that you have also amended your initial statement - "companies pay more salary as they make more profit" to now just talking about good workers.  What about average workers, or workers who cannot work as fast, due to disability say?

Can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers?  And does it work in reverse (Whoops!  Went to two there, sorry - but both just clarifications of your one point.)

If you have average workers you're doing something wrong as the employer.

Maybe so.  But you were the one who introduced the concept of good (and hence bad, or average) workers.  So I'll ask again - can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers.

Second question: does it work in reverse?  If companies profits go down, can / should those companies decrease wages?

I know you weren't asking me but all I can say at the moment is this. If the company is doing good (making profit) AND if the CEO gets a raise or a bonus then all the workers should too. If the company is doing poorly (loosing money) AND if they have to reduce wages or lay off employees then the CEO should suffer in kind. If the company is maintaining on an even kilter then neither the CEO nor the employees should benefit or suffer but just maintain or strive to do better...together.

That's just my opinion.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #135 on: July 01, 2014, 09:36:13 AM »
....can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers.

Second question: does it work in reverse?  If companies profits go down, can / should those companies decrease wages?

Since the blame is on management their pay should get cut first.

Those folk should get a raise too, maybe just not as much as an above average worker.

So: I believe you are saying that:
1) Companies should increase wages in line with profits, pro-rata'd in some way depending on performance.
2) Companies should likewise decrease wages in line with performance, starting with higher management.

Have I understood your position correctly?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #136 on: July 01, 2014, 09:38:33 AM »
I know you weren't asking me but all I can say at the moment is this. If the company is doing good (making profit) AND if the CEO gets a raise or a bonus then all the workers should too. If the company is doing poorly (loosing money) AND if they have to reduce wages or lay off employees then the CEO should suffer in kind. If the company is maintaining on an even kilter then neither the CEO nor the employees should benefit or suffer but just maintain or strive to do better...together.

Actually, I am asking you - or actually, to be fair, Junebug is, since this thread was her idea to build concensus and establish how to progress to Utopia.

Can I ask - based on what you are saying above, do you feel that companies should be required to act in that way when profits rise/fall?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #137 on: July 01, 2014, 10:19:20 AM »
0
Did I say anything about anything? I put a picture of Wall-E. I don't know why you're so defensive.

Quoted me, so it was in response to me. Said "Welcome to the automatised utopia.", preceded by a negative image. So yes; you did, in fact, say something about something.
EDIT: Oh, and the reason I'm "defensive" is because of my severe allergy to strawmen.

Sorry to interrupt the lovely discussion being had but in the movie Wall-E, the human survivors on the space ship speant hundreds of years and many generations in space, which resulted in the loss of bone density and muscle tissue and the addition of body fat.  It was a simplistic cartoon way to imply that living in space would change the human race.

I think Defiance was just using humor to lighten things up.  OAA, I don't think you're being defensive because of some "allergy" to strawmen, I think maybe you're stressed out with the discussions on these forums.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #138 on: July 01, 2014, 10:24:30 AM »
I think Defiance was just using humor to lighten things up.

If that's the case, he was being dishonest for not having corrected me right away.

OAA, I don't think you're being defensive because of some "allergy" to strawmen, I think maybe you're stressed out with the discussions on these forums.

The One Above All does not get stressed out by this or any other forum. Real life can increase stress levels, but that's about it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #139 on: July 01, 2014, 12:22:43 PM »
If that's the case, he was being dishonest for not having corrected me right away.

Or maybe Defiance was confused by your reaction to the picture.  Can we actually say for certain if it was a direct response to what you said OAA or maybe it was a continuation of the string of comments by eh!, Junebug and yourself?  Sure, you were the last person to say something in the discussion, but you weren't the only one.  Perhaps that was the intent in leaving the quotes of eh! and Junebug in the reply made by Defiance? 



The One Above All does not get stressed out by this or any other forum. Real life can increase stress levels, but that's about it.

Okay, well I'm glad that these forums aren't stressing you out.  Perhaps a bit of frustration maybe?  Some of the discussions you're engaged in on these forums would frustrate the heck out of me if I were in your shoes.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #140 on: July 01, 2014, 12:30:53 PM »
Or maybe Defiance was confused by your reaction to the picture.  Can we actually say for certain if it was a direct response to what you said OAA or maybe it was a continuation of the string of comments by eh!, Junebug and yourself?  Sure, you were the last person to say something in the discussion, but you weren't the only one.  Perhaps that was the intent in leaving the quotes of eh! and Junebug in the reply made by Defiance? 

I wouldn't believe that even if Defiance himself told me. His response didn't indicate confusion.

Okay, well I'm glad that these forums aren't stressing you out.  Perhaps a bit of frustration maybe?  Some of the discussions you're engaged in on these forums would frustrate the heck out of me if I were in your shoes.

The ignore function is a handy tool. Also not posting. That helps too.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #141 on: July 01, 2014, 02:52:11 PM »
If everyone just did what i said there would be utopia.

So what do you say eh!  How can we work together atheist with SBNR to accomplish our common goals? :?

For me, less sarcasm would be a good start.  :laugh:

I am asking for everyone's opinion. :P
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Online One Above All

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #142 on: July 01, 2014, 02:57:13 PM »
How can we work together atheist with SBNR to accomplish our common goals? :?

Only religious people/theists have goals in common with one another due to their religion, as I've explained in this thread. Atheists, on the other hand, can share every point of view/belief a theist has, except one: the existence of deities.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #143 on: July 01, 2014, 03:12:33 PM »
....can/should companies increase pay in line with profits to all workers, or just good workers.

Second question: does it work in reverse?  If companies profits go down, can / should those companies decrease wages?

Since the blame is on management their pay should get cut first.

Those folk should get a raise too, maybe just not as much as an above average worker.

So: I believe you are saying that:
1) Companies should increase wages in line with profits, pro-rata'd in some way depending on performance.
2) Companies should likewise decrease wages in line with performance, starting with higher management.

Have I understood your position correctly?

I did say employers are responsible for performance. 

Other than that yes.  I think you understand me. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Can Mankind Create Utopia? True Colors
« Reply #144 on: July 01, 2014, 03:13:31 PM »
I know you weren't asking me but all I can say at the moment is this. If the company is doing good (making profit) AND if the CEO gets a raise or a bonus then all the workers should too. If the company is doing poorly (loosing money) AND if they have to reduce wages or lay off employees then the CEO should suffer in kind. If the company is maintaining on an even kilter then neither the CEO nor the employees should benefit or suffer but just maintain or strive to do better...together.

Actually, I am asking you - or actually, to be fair, Junebug is, since this thread was her idea to build concensus and establish how to progress to Utopia.

Can I ask - based on what you are saying above, do you feel that companies should be required to act in that way when profits rise/fall?

I am basing that on my own sense of morality and ethics. I don't think requiring companies to run their business that way would work. It's a situation where I think someone should lead by example. However, I do think there should be something in place that doesn't allow CEO's to come into a company, run it into the ground then bail out with a golden parachute. That is repugnant to me.

However, I don't think I should be so quick to dismiss the idea that maybe there could be some sort of law of percentages involved in pay raises or bonuses to employees which is tied to the bonuses of CEO's and other top tier executives in connection with the profits of the company. I am just not educated enough to suggest a good fix.
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