Author Topic: Almost Persuaded  (Read 898 times)

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Offline voodoo child

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #58 on: June 25, 2014, 03:57:43 AM »
When natives claim spirituality, they are basically saying; get off my lawn.   
 
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline junebug72

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2014, 06:54:44 AM »

Quote
That is just a bad perception of God.


No, it isn’t. It an exact description of the Christian God as portrayed by the bible.

You misunderstand me.  I am saying Christianity is a bad perception of God.  Religions are bad perceptions of God.   


Quote
People pray for the wrong things,


How can it be wrong to pray for certain things when God said in his bible to pray for anything, even to move a mountain and if you believed in him, he would grant your prayer.

I am not a Christian TUW.  I see that as man's promise NOT God's.  That verse has caused so many people to lose their connection to God it's got to be millions!!! >:( >:(

When I got diagnosed with cancer I did not pray for healing.  I prayed for; "the serenity to accept the things I CAN NOT CHANGE,  The courage to change the things I CAN and the WISDOM to know the difference.  This prayer has helped millions of people conquer self suffering.

Spirituality, for me, is all about strengthening the spirit.  It was an essential part of my treatment.  DR's are prescribing it left and right.  It helped my Mom through the death of my brother from pancreatic cancer. 


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Do you have a statistic on divorce rates, prison percentage of the spiritual not religious category.  I bet it's less than Christianity or atheism.


Could be. I wonder if anyone has ever done such a study. Might be interesting to see.

Might be.  There isn't enough SBNR people in prison to even have a statistic like that.  At least not before they went to prison that is. ;)



A question for everyone. What benefits to humanity do you see deriving from atheism? Such as less war. or do you think an absence of religion would result in less warfare? Things like that?

I think the world would be more at peace with atheism as it's predominate perspective.  However, I think we would not be whole.  Mind and body would be great but the spirit dormant.  I could not possibly be happy as an atheist.  They are too serious.  I am thinking that atheist and SBNR folks will get along just fine.  Once those two concepts take over we will have accomplished our goal.  We will finally be complete.  That's why I am here trying to build a bridge.

Imagine that chart when you combine atheism with spiritualism.  It definitely increases our chances of getting rid of religions. 8)  We have a common goal.  We are not that far apart in our perceptions of our existence to fight about it.  The SBNR people WILL NOT FIGHT.  WE HATE VIOLENCE.   ATHEIST WON'T FIGHT THEY HATE VIOLENCE TOO!!!

I'm all in on getting rid of religion, all of them.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline TheUnknownWitch

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2014, 12:24:15 PM »
Quote
For example, from your rather broad definition of 'magick', I could say that the motion of my car is technically done by magick.  It is a property of nature that heating a gaseous fluid causes the gas to expand; it is a property of nature that ignition of a hydrocarbon will result in a explosive expansion of gas via rapid heating; it is a property of nature that the expansion of gas will cause a displacement in a solid chunk of matter (like a cylinder); it is a property of nature that if I couple that cylinder to a camshaft...blah blah blah.  I suspect you get the point - I don't think you would consider the internal combustion engine the result of magick, would you?
Got it in one! Here is an excerpt from a webpage I'm in the process of writing for my website explaining what I mean.
Quote
You are a Wizard! Don't believe me?
Have you ever:
 
  • Tied your shoelaces?
  • Rode a bike?
  • Cooked a meal
  • Driven a car?
   
If you’ve done any of these things, you’ve worked Magick. You are a Magician. Why do I say that?

First, what exactly is Magick?

“Magick is the Science and Art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will”
                                             ~ Aleister Crowley

In more modern terms, Magick is:
Intent (Will) + focus + energy = Change(result)

Anyone who can tie a shoe lace, can already do this.
1. Want to tie shoe laces—That’s your will, or intent.
2. Proceeds to tie shoe laces—focusing will
3. Movement of body while tying shoe laces—energy
    put into tying shoelaces
4. Shoe laces are tied—result of all the above—change

This is the formula for producing Magick. In the end, it’s all Magick. Whether tying your shoe laces or working a spell, the process is exactly the same.

The only difference is Magick can be a shortcut to get what you want done. Or a change of destiny.

Say that without the Magick, you would never meet Mr. Right and get married.

Do the Magick, meet Mr. Right and your destiny is changed.
Or
Sit at home, never get out and try, no Mr. Right.

Go out, do an active search, and there's Mr. Right right there in your bed. Same process.

If God was going to truly die, no resurrection, would he still have gone ahead and offered himself for a sacrifice anyway?

You have a good heart. . .I think I'll eat it.

Offline TheUnknownWitch

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2014, 12:51:18 PM »
Quote
I don't aim to benefit humanity through my lack of belief in a god or gods.

I don’t think I put that very well. I should have said, what differences a lack of belief in God would make in human lives.

Quote
I certainly hope not.  The longer society clings to this "God" belief and weapons technology advances, the survival chances of our species and this planet keeps decreasing.

You agree with me on one point, anyway. Religion is one of the major causes of conflict on this planet.
Quote
TheUnknownWitch, have you reached a conclusion about Russel's Teapot? What about magic flying monkeys that rearrange my spice shelf when there's nobody looking for a really long time and while I'm alone in the kitchen?

Very Interesting. Especially this part.

Quote
It can be argued that the case for most religions is actually weaker than the case for an alleged teapot orbiting the sun. At least the teapot, if it existed, would not violate any known physical laws — it might cause its hypothetical discoverers to scratch their heads about how the hell a teapot actually got there (see the "refutation" below) but nothing really stops a teapot existing or being in orbit. Many organized religions, if they were true, would require repeated violations of known physical laws.~ RationalWiki

I will explore this further. It makes a good case against religion.

I know those magic flying monkeys. They’re the ones who been getting into my Magickal supply cabinets and switching the labels on my herbs around.
If God was going to truly die, no resurrection, would he still have gone ahead and offered himself for a sacrifice anyway?

You have a good heart. . .I think I'll eat it.

Online One Above All

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2014, 01:07:15 PM »
Very Interesting. Especially this part.
<snip>
I will explore this further. It makes a good case against religion.

Religions, yours included.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline JoeNobody

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2014, 04:56:04 PM »
Quote
I don't aim to benefit humanity through my lack of belief in a god or gods.

I don’t think I put that very well. I should have said, what differences a lack of belief in God would make in human lives.

I think a little story might help me here.

Four friends with different worldviews are meeting for lunch. Pam Anybody believes in God. She believes in the healing power of prayer. John Everybody believes in healing crystals and positive thinking. Joe Nobody doesn't believe any of that. He thinks that if you want to help, then you go and do it, because we are all we have. Lisa Somebody tells the group "Guys, I found out yesterday that I have cancer."  Shocked, the table falls silent. Pam breaks the silence, "Hey, Lisa, you know I love you. I will pray for you. I'll even ask my church to pray on your behalf." "Yes," John concurs, "I have some homeopathic medicine for you at my house. I'll bring it tomorrow. You know I'll be sending good vibes into the universe." Joe thinks for a bit, then says "What do you need me to do, Lisa?" "I sure could use a ride back and forth to chemo, Joe." "You got it." he says without hesitation.

Somebody needs help. Anybody could have done it. Everybody wanted to do it. Nobody did.

When we recognize that there are probably no gods who respond to our pleas, that any action to alleviate suffering comes from other humans, then we can actually start to solve some of the problems that we, collectively, face. Too many people use prayer and "positive energy" instead of really helping others.

This is not even mentioning when some religious person claims to know the mind of God, and uses this as an excuse to exercise his or her own bigotry to deny the rights of others. Or when fundamentalists want to hold back scientific education and advancement because they are convinced that it disagrees with their holy book. Or when extremists attack and kill folks who simply believe something different.

Now, I am not saying that if someone gives up god belief, that they suddenly become a better person. Atheists a human beings with prejudices and biases just like everyone else. What I am saying is a rational consideration of human needs, a recognition of basic rights, and empathy for our fellow denizens of Earth does not require any belief if god, gods or goddesses, and we would all be better of for it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #64 on: June 26, 2014, 07:44:07 AM »
Now, I am not saying that if someone gives up god belief, that they suddenly become a better person.

True.  But I think they will have a better shot at it.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #65 on: June 26, 2014, 08:00:34 AM »
I'm here if you have any questions about SBNR.  I am not going to come after you. 

Peace and love Sister and fellow NCian.  asheville, nc 

I hope you find what you're looking for.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #66 on: June 26, 2014, 08:32:39 AM »
Quote
For example, from your rather broad definition of 'magick', I could say that the motion of my car is technically done by magick.  It is a property of nature that heating a gaseous fluid causes the gas to expand; it is a property of nature that ignition of a hydrocarbon will result in a explosive expansion of gas via rapid heating; it is a property of nature that the expansion of gas will cause a displacement in a solid chunk of matter (like a cylinder); it is a property of nature that if I couple that cylinder to a camshaft...blah blah blah.  I suspect you get the point - I don't think you would consider the internal combustion engine the result of magick, would you?
Got it in one! Here is an excerpt from a webpage I'm in the process of writing for my website explaining what I mean.
Quote
You are a Wizard! Don't believe me?
Have you ever:
 
  • Tied your shoelaces?
  • Rode a bike?
  • Cooked a meal
  • Driven a car?
   
If you’ve done any of these things, you’ve worked Magick. You are a Magician. Why do I say that?

First, what exactly is Magick?

“Magick is the Science and Art of causing change to occur in conformity with Will”
                                             ~ Aleister Crowley

In more modern terms, Magick is:
Intent (Will) + focus + energy = Change(result)

Anyone who can tie a shoe lace, can already do this.
1. Want to tie shoe laces—That’s your will, or intent.
2. Proceeds to tie shoe laces—focusing will
3. Movement of body while tying shoe laces—energy
    put into tying shoelaces
4. Shoe laces are tied—result of all the above—change

This is the formula for producing Magick. In the end, it’s all Magick. Whether tying your shoe laces or working a spell, the process is exactly the same.

The only difference is Magick can be a shortcut to get what you want done. Or a change of destiny.
Only difference to what?  Your excerpt seems to indicate that magick is essentially the same as 'doing stuff'.

Or how about this - your excerpt describes a way to tie one's shoe laces via magick.  Could you describe a way to tie one's shoe laces via non-magick?

Quote
Say that without the Magick, you would never meet Mr. Right and get married.

Do the Magick, meet Mr. Right and your destiny is changed.
Or
Sit at home, never get out and try, no Mr. Right.

Go out, do an active search, and there's Mr. Right right there in your bed. Same process.

Is this a valid scenario:
Do the Magick, meet Mr. Right and your destiny is changed.
Or
Sit at home, never get out and try, no Mr. Right.
Or
Do not do the Magick, go out, meet people, try dating sites, meet Mr. Right, and your destiny is changed
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2014, 08:49:55 AM »
1. Want to tie shoe laces—That’s your will, or intent.
2. Proceeds to tie shoe laces—focusing will
3. Movement of body while tying shoe laces—energy
    put into tying shoelaces
4. Shoe laces are tied—result of all the above—change

This is the formula for producing Magick. In the end, it’s all Magick. Whether tying your shoe laces or working a spell, the process is exactly the same.

Only difference to what?  Your excerpt seems to indicate that magick is essentially the same as 'doing stuff'.

My thoughts exactly. 

If "magick"="doing stuff", then there is no need for anyone to ever coin the term "Magick".  Its an irrelevant word, BUT, is also one that carries with it a lot of baggage that causes people to say "what?"

Now, if the set of "magick" includes "doing stuff" AND "something else", then there is a valid reason for coining the word "magick".  It adds something to the way we describe the universe, and makes an important distinction between a way of "doing stuff", and the "something else".

So I'll echo Jdawg - what is this "something else" that differentiates magick from the regular way of doing stuff?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2014, 09:38:20 AM »
So I'll echo Jdawg - what is this "something else" that differentiates magick from the regular way of doing stuff?

It's like putting on your lucky pants, go out, meet people, meet Mr. Right, and your destiny is changed

Offline screwtape

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2014, 10:33:40 AM »
I am at my desk designing a machine right now.  I am finding specs on slew bearings in the McMaster-Carr catalog.  I guess by that interpretation of "magick" I am a mystical wizard using eldritch power as I pour through tomes of arcane secrets. 

I hope that didn't sound too mocking.  I can see the allure of it, because having secret knowledge of how the universe really works and the power to shape it as I will sounds cool.  But it's just romantic fantasy. 
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Almost Persuaded
« Reply #70 on: June 26, 2014, 11:12:29 AM »
Quote
The only difference is Magick can be a shortcut to get what you want done. Or a change of destiny.

Say that without the Magick, you would never meet Mr. Right and get married.

Do the Magick, meet Mr. Right and your destiny is changed.
Or
Sit at home, never get out and try, no Mr. Right.

Go out, do an active search, and there's Mr. Right right there in your bed. Same process.


Prayer + Posting a Resume + Going on Interviews + Researching and Preparing + Repeating = Finding a new Job
Magick + Posting a Resume + Going on Interviews + Researching and Preparing + Repeating = Finding a new Job
Posting a Resume + Going on Interviews + Researching and Preparing + Repeating = Finding a new Job

Which things on the above list weren't needed at all?

Prayer + Building interpersonal skills + presenting an attractive package + meeting single people + repeating = Finding a new romance
Magick + Building interpersonal skills + presenting an attractive package + meeting single people + repeating = Finding a new romance
Building interpersonal skills + presenting an attractive package + meeting single people + repeating = Finding a new romance

Which things on the above list weren't needed at all?

Prayer + Medical Diagnosis + Physical Fitness + Well Trained Surgeons + Screening for Problems = Curing a curable health problem
Magick + Medical Diagnosis + Physical Fitness + Well Trained Surgeons + Screening for Problems = Curing a curable health problem
Medical Diagnosis + Physical Fitness + Well Trained Surgeons + Screening for Problems = Curing a curable health problem

Which things on the above lists weren't needed at all?

That's right.  Prayer and Magick add 0 to all of those equations.   They equal zero.

You can always achieve everything you would have achieved anyway with no prayer and no magick or magic or whatever.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.