Author Topic: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768  (Read 2212 times)

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Offline eh!

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #174 on: July 05, 2014, 05:04:00 PM »
Yr missing the big picture, in heaven they don't need no stinkin bridges everybody levitates.
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #175 on: July 05, 2014, 05:15:58 PM »
Well, if people float in heaven that sounds fun.  However, it becomes very bothersome when people (cough... Christians) don't question things and demand more information.  They actually accept the the paper that fell into water and dissolved the ink from the paper so it's mostly unreadable and up to interpretation more than actual knowledge.

For anyone that didn't catch the analogy, it's analogous for modern math and science (morals included) turning religion into a distorted, unreadable mess to some, while others proclaim they can read it exactly while someone else just interpreted it differently just moments later.

Oh yea, and the people that ask questions are considered evil. Wow....
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #176 on: July 05, 2014, 05:26:18 PM »
Agree man but there is a lot of money and power involved in being identified as someone who has the correct interpretation. if it was unambiguous that power and $$$ disappears.

and what better product to pedal than one which can only be verified by the customer..... after they are dead.


you get the maths wrong on a bridge you will be sued and yr career is fuct + plus all the carnage you cause.


sell a mansion in heaven what's a disgruntled customer gonna do if heaven doesn't exist..... nothing.



religion is so devious only satan could have started it.
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #177 on: July 05, 2014, 05:33:39 PM »
 ^^^ congratulations, that's exactly what I was getting at and most of us are here to discuss. Just making sure you weren't reading from some atheist book... Lol  ;)
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #178 on: July 05, 2014, 05:39:34 PM »
I would like to establish an historical link between religions and millitary victors.


my hypothesis would be something like religions were historically designed and forced on a population as a political tool of control.


jesus may have well been created for this purpose, not here denying that he did not exist tho.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #179 on: July 05, 2014, 06:00:41 PM »
Agree man but there is a lot of money and power involved in being identified as someone who has the correct interpretation. if it was unambiguous that power and $$$ disappears.

and what better product to pedal than one which can only be verified by the customer..... after they are dead.


you get the maths wrong on a bridge you will be sued and yr career is fuct + plus all the carnage you cause.


sell a mansion in heaven what's a disgruntled customer gonna do if heaven doesn't exist..... nothing.



religion is so devious only satan could have started it.

I think I read that the bridge designers in ancient Rome had to stand under the bridge the first day it opened. I bet you money they got that math right! But what is the risk taken by religious people who lead other people into the wrong beliefs?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #180 on: July 05, 2014, 06:04:03 PM »
Hmm.. Interesting question. I know Romans were one of the first well established marvels of civilization, architectural innovation and philosophy. However, I think whoever has the best technology wins/trumps win in warfare.

For example, we don't want anyone to use/deploy nuclear weapons. But, if religion and their god says so than we we will all have to deal with the bulllshit.... I mean serious, political, and social issues of today that we've never, ever witnessed in any of past civilizations prior.

Can't we just Learn already from pasts mistakes!?

Oh wait,that's what engineering is for. social issues have these stupid debates in forums like these while everything else advances...  :-\

Edited - sorry, didn't mean to imply these debates/forum weren't an accessory to progressing with what's right and needed to be improved on from our past.  This is forum is the best I've come across but sometimes its tiresome.

Its like when you've read many books and then people who haven't read any of them try to discuss them. It's tough when the same people use different arguments from the same book. Shouldn't it be well established what your thesis contains.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:14:17 PM by DVZ3 »
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #181 on: July 05, 2014, 06:11:50 PM »
Sure science and engineering will advance but religion can impede it.


people have forgotten the hysteria around IVF. the religous back lash was disgusting. now thousands of xians pay for IVF.


i muse that we would have a moon base if Galileo was supported and not persecuted.


please do not think we can't be dragged back into the dark ages if people like skep, luk, and jwb had their way.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #182 on: July 05, 2014, 06:13:39 PM »
Wrong about what?  Do you mean, for example, what happens if worry is instead beneficial and Jesus is trying to trick us?
Is there some reason you are trying to play at being anal retentive so you can avoid answering the question I asked?

First you go into a spiel about how I should instead consider the "immediate and practical benefits" of following scripture, which isn't what I asked about at all.  Then, when I restate the question I actually asked, you act as if your spiel is actually relevant to what I asked in the first place.  It isn't, and I don't appreciate being given the runaround like this.  You are not representing your religion at all well to me (or frankly, to anyone else in the thread) by acting like this.

Once again, what happens if scripture is wrong?  I'm not talking about trivial advice like "it's better not to worry about things", which you can find in a lot of cultures - I'm talking about the whole Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus or him being the Son of God, or things like that.

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #183 on: July 05, 2014, 06:26:30 PM »
The moon base... Another interesting question.  But the fact remains, technology advances for war and smart phones and computers are just a byproduct as it always has been throughout history (internet communication was for military intelligence).

Also, war isn't and shouldn't be measured with weapons in general. China has had and still does have the most powerful supercomputer of all nations to calculate the most complex algorithms.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianhe-2

This is old news but IBM did have "Blue Gene" and it's only the beginning.

IBM Watson Beats the best human challengers in a game of linguist interpretation.



The future wars will be fought with knowledge so it's nice to see all the people who choose to ignore it but it's scary to see who will harness it.



« Last Edit: July 05, 2014, 06:33:46 PM by DVZ3 »
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #184 on: July 05, 2014, 06:34:28 PM »
Perhaps you would do well to consider the more immediate and practical benefits that following the scriptures can provide.  For example, in his sermon on the mount Jesus taught his discples not to worry.  This is practical advise that brings benefits.  One that is overcome with worry can become unhealthy.  Worrying will also change absolutely nothing, except possibly your health.
Please answer the actual question I asked.

What happens if scripture is wrong?

Wrong about what?  Do you mean, for example, what happens if worry is instead beneficial and Jesus is trying to trick us?

You have to really pick and choose to find originality and truth in the bible. What is true is not original and what is original is rare-- and rarely true. The bible is wrong about the age of the earth, wrong about human origins, wrong about biogeography, wrong about how to cure diseases like leprosy, wrong about gay people, wrong about the causes of mental illness, and wrong about miracle healings, just for starters.

If Christians had been willing to evaluate everything in the bible critically and objectively--keeping only the stuff that was sensible and helpful-- we would have a much shorter, much less confusing and much more useful book. Call it "Everyone's Practical Bible". We could still keep the culturally important smitings, miracles, revelations and begats, but put all that stuff in some separate book called "The Poetry and Mythology with Lots of Horrible Violence Plus Begats Bible for Believers and a few Scholars".

We would then have one source with useful info, like the stuff Jesus said about not worrying about things you cannot change, but we would not have crazy stuff mixed in there about people living in whales or how hard you can beat your slaves. Hey, being beaten almost to death might make the slaves worry, don't you think? (Another bible contradiction...)

We might also find that the stuff that is useful is not original to the bible or to Jesus. Do you think the bible was the first time people collected a list of laws to govern human behavior? (It was not.) Do you think Jesus was the first person in history to tell people not to worry, or to tell people to be nice to each other? (He was not.)

But instead of making separate books with clearly different applications, one practical and one mythological, there were meetings with politically motivated groups of believers deciding what to keep and what to ditch, based on their own personal reasons.  That is why the bible ended up being a great big hodgepodge full of everyone's favorite faith-based hits, with only a few scatterings of objective truth.

Or maybe I am looking at this completely wrong. The bible was inspired by an all-loving, powerful god who wanted to impart his wisdom for all time. It's so hard to tell which it was, looking at the result.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #185 on: July 05, 2014, 06:36:23 PM »
Can't access you tube atm but will look forward to view.

agree science is driven mostly by war and consumer gadgets.

engineers and scientists get funding mainly by govs and for profit companies and research ain't cheap.

non hypothesis based science driven by curiosity is rare these days.

even our hospitals are built on millitary type emergency care.


most of our surgical knowledge and procedures was determined under hostile fire on the battle field and this is our most advanced field of medicine...... coincidence.


Teller wrote that ask for money to research ways to alleviate human suffering and you wilk get none. say you have an unsubstantiated crazy idea for the most destructive bomb evet built and money will be thrown at you, and lots of it.  not exact words, just my general recollection of his words.
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #186 on: July 05, 2014, 07:35:52 PM »
jstweb - please make an attempt to answer the question below, exactly as jaimehlers has put forth below

Once again, what happens if scripture is wrong?  I'm not talking about trivial advice like "it's better not to worry about things", which you can find in a lot of cultures - I'm talking about the whole Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus or him being the Son of God, or things like that.

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #187 on: July 06, 2014, 01:10:27 AM »
It is only necessary to tell the truth about Jehovah and the good news about his kingdom, and support others in their walk with God in an upbuilding way.

Hey, that's all anybody here is asking you to do: tell the truth about Jehovah, and explain how we can know it's the truth about Jehovah.  And please, don't try and say you guys and gals don't debate.  The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society produces endless fountains of literature that set out to explain why "Christendom" (all the non-JW versions of Christianity) is wrong, (e.g. Should You Believe in the Trinity?), as well as attacking evolution, occultism, etc..  If what we're asking is against the rules, somebody better tell the Watchtower, stat!

Edit: BTW, I'm going to be on vacation between 7/7 and 7/22, and I don't expect to be on a computer during that time, so there'll probably be five more pages of this thread by the time I get back. :)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 01:12:05 AM by kcrady »
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #188 on: July 06, 2014, 09:08:01 AM »
Lukevance/Skeptic,

Personally I think this would be a great topic for both of you to exchange your views. I can understand that both of you have different views, and it would be out of great respect towards eachother if you would explain it, because according to the beliefs of both of you, much is at stake.

Well, are we wrong to point out the truth? The truth that Luk and Skep seem to think both are right and the other is wrong?

Pointing out the truth and coaxing them into an argument where all of you can just point and laugh are two different things.

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves." (Mt 10:16)

As for JST, implying, that this thread might be here for us to laugh, makes me wonder what you belief would be right in examining your faith, note not defending it. It is good to see you quote Matthew. I would like to try to contradict your point of view within your context. If I look at the bible, I could also argue that there is a instruction for you to test 'every spirit', by which you could be guided to set out the context of your belief.

1 John 4:1, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world"

1 Corinthians 12:10: "to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues."

The fact that both Luke and Skeptic decided to join this forum is probably (I assume and please correct me if I'm wrong here :)), is that they believe they have a message for us. Perhaps different from the ones we've heared before. In a way they feel that they are called to spread their message. Otherwise they would not dedicate their time and attention to us on this forum and argue with us, even when it sometimes means that they are being called out on. Wouldn't it then, especially for Luke and Skeptic be important that, they themselves distinguish between their message as they both felt called upon to share it with us?

If you think that the way to deal with things is through a loving approach, I would say, that's fine by me. BUT, that does not release you from a possible responsibility to test the views which you come across by throughout your spiritual journey:

1 Thessalonians 5: 20-22: "Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."
1 Corinthians 14:29: "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said."

Finally:

2 Tim 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I would say that, especially because Lukevance and Skeptic are both believers but seem to have a different view on the prophetic authority which is underlying the Catholic Church vs. Skeptic his own take on Christianity, it is only in their best interest to 'test' the grounds on which these doctrines came into existence and is believed to guide them. Especially since for example some may believe that the Catholic church is based upon false teaching and prophecy, while some say the same applies to Evangelism, etc. etc. However, even with such beliefs, especially within the bible, there is freedom and instruction, to test them. Especially between believers themselves:

1 Corinthians 5:12: "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

This has nothing to do with atheism laughing, but everything to do with believers helping eachother in understanding shared common ground, perhaps without distorting to contempt.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #189 on: July 06, 2014, 11:36:09 AM »
It's all nice and good for theists to love one another,it's totally another when one is not a theist,because he is being deceived by demons. Being led down the wrong path,away from God,by demons is the base statement from skeptic. You can't follow God if you are worshipping demons.
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #190 on: July 06, 2014, 04:50:40 PM »
Justwebbrowsing:  You're a Jehovah's Witness, right?  (Please correct me if I'm wrong)  If so, both Lukvance and Skep are members of a counterfeit faith ("Christendom") that has imported all manner of Pagan and/or demonic ideas into its pseudo-Christianity, and the Watchtower is the only spiritual organization that Jehovah sanctions, the only hope either of them have to live happily forever on Jehovah's restored Earth.

This is irrelevant.  It does not change the instructions given to Christians.  Christ said you must love your neighbor as yourself and then used someone religiously despised by the Jews, a Samaritan, to provide an example.  They do not need my approval and I don't need theirs.  The only thing that matters is doing what Christ taught.  (Mt 7:21,22)
can I ask you a serious question,do you do every little thing Jesus has asked of you,if no,why not? Don't cop out by claiming you are only human,you make a choice to follow or not to.

You can ask but I'm not going to answer.  Answering such a question would be meaningless.  "If I testify about Myself, My testimony is not valid."  (Jn 5:32)  If God testifies on my behalf then his testimony is true.
so do I assume you can't follow? There is either the choice to,or not to,follow all tenants of your religion. If you choose not to,and then claim you can't because your only human is a cop out.  It should be easy if you love Jesus to follow all tenants and commands.

You should assume I'm not here to talk about personal matters.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #191 on: July 06, 2014, 05:05:27 PM »
Wrong about what?  Do you mean, for example, what happens if worry is instead beneficial and Jesus is trying to trick us?
Is there some reason you are trying to play at being anal retentive so you can avoid answering the question I asked?

First you go into a spiel about how I should instead consider the "immediate and practical benefits" of following scripture, which isn't what I asked about at all.  Then, when I restate the question I actually asked, you act as if your spiel is actually relevant to what I asked in the first place.  It isn't, and I don't appreciate being given the runaround like this.  You are not representing your religion at all well to me (or frankly, to anyone else in the thread) by acting like this.

Once again, what happens if scripture is wrong?  I'm not talking about trivial advice like "it's better not to worry about things", which you can find in a lot of cultures - I'm talking about the whole Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus or him being the Son of God, or things like that.

That is an unanswerable hypothetical to me.  The scriptures are not wrong.  "the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do." (James 1:6-8)
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #192 on: July 06, 2014, 05:09:35 PM »
jstweb - please make an attempt to answer the question below, exactly as jaimehlers has put forth below

Once again, what happens if scripture is wrong?  I'm not talking about trivial advice like "it's better not to worry about things", which you can find in a lot of cultures - I'm talking about the whole Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus or him being the Son of God, or things like that.

I gave the best answer I have.  It is like asking me what happens if the sun isn't hot.  I have no answer.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #193 on: July 06, 2014, 05:14:56 PM »
The sun exists rather obviously.....nobody asks if the sun is wrong. You can do a simple experiment take yourself in a sealef building where no sunlight enters and document the result. you can leave a plant in the room for 2 weeks and see the affect. affect on the plant if scripture is wrong?

I don't think yr analogy is a good one.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 05:18:45 PM by eh! »
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #194 on: July 06, 2014, 05:33:22 PM »
It is only necessary to tell the truth about Jehovah and the good news about his kingdom, and support others in their walk with God in an upbuilding way.

Hey, that's all anybody here is asking you to do: tell the truth about Jehovah, and explain how we can know it's the truth about Jehovah.  And please, don't try and say you guys and gals don't debate.  The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society produces endless fountains of literature that set out to explain why "Christendom" (all the non-JW versions of Christianity) is wrong, (e.g. Should You Believe in the Trinity?), as well as attacking evolution, occultism, etc..  If what we're asking is against the rules, somebody better tell the Watchtower, stat!

Edit: BTW, I'm going to be on vacation between 7/7 and 7/22, and I don't expect to be on a computer during that time, so there'll probably be five more pages of this thread by the time I get back. :)

I haven't said anything is against the rules.  I said some of you are trying to coerce others into arguments and that it will lead to nothing but scoffing.  I stand by that statement.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #195 on: July 06, 2014, 05:59:28 PM »
As for JST, implying, that this thread might be here for us to laugh, makes me wonder what you belief would be right in examining your faith, note not defending it. It is good to see you quote Matthew. I would like to try to contradict your point of view within your context. If I look at the bible, I could also argue that there is a instruction for you to test 'every spirit', by which you could be guided to set out the context of your belief.

I said I am done talking about Scep and Luke.  I've not dictated anything to anyone.

Quote
1 John 4:1, "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world"

1 Corinthians 12:10: "to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues."

The fact that both Luke and Skeptic decided to join this forum is probably (I assume and please correct me if I'm wrong here ), is that they believe they have a message for us. Perhaps different from the ones we've heared before. In a way they feel that they are called to spread their message. Otherwise they would not dedicate their time and attention to us on this forum and argue with us, even when it sometimes means that they are being called out on. Wouldn't it then, especially for Luke and Skeptic be important that, they themselves distinguish between their message as they both felt called upon to share it with us?

If you think that the way to deal with things is through a loving approach, I would say, that's fine by me. BUT, that does not release you from a possible responsibility to test the views which you come across by throughout your spiritual journey:

1 Thessalonians 5: 20-22: "Do not treat prophecies with contempt but test them all; hold on to what is good, reject every kind of evil."
1 Corinthians 14:29: "Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said."

Finally:

2 Tim 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

I would say that, especially because Lukevance and Skeptic are both believers but seem to have a different view on the prophetic authority which is underlying the Catholic Church vs. Skeptic his own take on Christianity, it is only in their best interest to 'test' the grounds on which these doctrines came into existence and is believed to guide them. Especially since for example some may believe that the Catholic church is based upon false teaching and prophecy, while some say the same applies to Evangelism, etc. etc. However, even with such beliefs, especially within the bible, there is freedom and instruction, to test them. Especially between believers themselves:

1 Corinthians 5:12: "What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?"

This has nothing to do with atheism laughing, but everything to do with believers helping eachother in understanding shared common ground, perhaps without distorting to contempt.

None of this says anything about putting on a show for the entertainment of unbelievers. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #196 on: July 06, 2014, 06:01:37 PM »
The sun exists rather obviously.....nobody asks if the sun is wrong. You can do a simple experiment take yourself in a sealef building where no sunlight enters and document the result. you can leave a plant in the room for 2 weeks and see the affect. affect on the plant if scripture is wrong?

I don't think yr analogy is a good one.

I didn't say anything about the sun's existence.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline eh!

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #197 on: July 06, 2014, 06:14:12 PM »
You gave a fake answer to a fake question you made up.

you are concerned non believers will laugh at luk and skep, you should extend that concern to yourself.

You want to know what a cold sun is like first define the temperature of interest and i will explain that fir yoy as well.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #198 on: July 06, 2014, 06:38:02 PM »
That is an unanswerable hypothetical to me.  The scriptures are not wrong.  "the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do." (James 1:6-8)
Don't give me ridiculous attempts at excuses like this.  There is no such thing as an "unanswerable hypothetical".  What you mean is that you refuse to even consider the slightest possibility that your belief might be wrong.  Belief cannot exist without doubt, no matter how much you attempt to deny that.  Pretending otherwise is tantamount to lying to yourself.

In answer to the analogy you gave to jetson as to why you couldn't answer, that makes your position even more untenable, because I can easily answer the hypothetical of "what happens if the sun isn't hot?"  For example, I could explain what would happen if the sun suddenly cooled down.  If you asked me what would happen if it isn't hot right now, I could do an experiment to test whether it is hot and thus show that your statement contradicted the facts that were in evidence.

But what can you do?  All you can claim is that it's 'unanswerable', except it actually isn't, so this is an excuse to try to avoid answering.  And not a very good one; based on the scripture you quoted at me, it's nothing but an attempt to avoid even the risk of doubt.  But you don't actually show that you lack doubt; you just show that you're concerned about the consequences of having doubt and thus deny it to yourself.

So, once again, answer the question I put to you.  I don't care if you treat it as a hypothetical, I just want you to answer it.

Offline jetson

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #199 on: July 06, 2014, 06:50:41 PM »
jstweb - please make an attempt to answer the question below, exactly as jaimehlers has put forth below

Once again, what happens if scripture is wrong?  I'm not talking about trivial advice like "it's better not to worry about things", which you can find in a lot of cultures - I'm talking about the whole Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus or him being the Son of God, or things like that.

I gave the best answer I have.  It is like asking me what happens if the sun isn't hot.  I have no answer.

Do you expect us to believe that you are incapable of considering that the Bible is wrong? I find that hard to believe, but if you really cannot answer, then maybe you should avoid getting involved in topics that might require you to consider that your position is wrong? Atheists grant believers the benefit of the doubt all of the time. We don't assume the Bible is correct, we know it is filled with supernatural impossibilities, and thus we consider it worthy to engage in discussions such as this by granting the believer the benefit of the doubt, in order to have the discussion.

This is a discussion forum, and I don't think it is too much to ask.

If I were you, I might reply with something like "Well, I believe that the Bible is correct, but if I were to discover that it is not correct, I would abandon my beliefs and call myself an atheist." I know it's a stretch, but I think you're capable.

How about this - what if Mary was not a virgin impregnated by God? What would you think if credible historical evidence were provided showing that Mary lied about her pregnancy out of fear?

Believe me, there is no one who would doubt your sincere beliefs if you engaged in some critical thinking on some of these questions. In fact, some of us would think more highly of you.

And in case you're concerned, Satan is blocking God from seeing this website, so it's quite safe.  ;D

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #200 on: July 06, 2014, 06:56:30 PM »
I believe it is a staple in live Q&A debates for theists to confront atheists with the "what if your wrong" question. find examples on you tube. i don't recall anything but honest justified responses from atheists.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #201 on: July 06, 2014, 07:51:06 PM »
That is an unanswerable hypothetical to me.  The scriptures are not wrong.  "the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do." (James 1:6-8)
Don't give me ridiculous attempts at excuses like this.  There is no such thing as an "unanswerable hypothetical".  What you mean is that you refuse to even consider the slightest possibility that your belief might be wrong.  Belief cannot exist without doubt, no matter how much you attempt to deny that.  Pretending otherwise is tantamount to lying to yourself.

In answer to the analogy you gave to jetson as to why you couldn't answer, that makes your position even more untenable, because I can easily answer the hypothetical of "what happens if the sun isn't hot?"  For example, I could explain what would happen if the sun suddenly cooled down.  If you asked me what would happen if it isn't hot right now, I could do an experiment to test whether it is hot and thus show that your statement contradicted the facts that were in evidence.

But what can you do?  All you can claim is that it's 'unanswerable', except it actually isn't, so this is an excuse to try to avoid answering.  And not a very good one; based on the scripture you quoted at me, it's nothing but an attempt to avoid even the risk of doubt.  But you don't actually show that you lack doubt; you just show that you're concerned about the consequences of having doubt and thus deny it to yourself.

So, once again, answer the question I put to you.  I don't care if you treat it as a hypothetical, I just want you to answer it.
not to mention there is scripture telling you to ignore every possible scenario  where they attack your belief
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #202 on: July 06, 2014, 09:17:39 PM »
Do you expect us to believe that you are incapable of considering that the Bible is wrong? I find that hard to believe, but if you really cannot answer, then maybe you should avoid getting involved in topics that might require you to consider that your position is wrong?

I believe he has faith that the Bible can always be interpreted in a way which makes it correct. That is to say, that the Bible is a pile of words, which is free of the intent of the original authors. The words can be made to "say" almost anything you like. If the original author had no idea what he was actually saying, then it was because God was guiding him with a greater plan. If the original author had a good idea of what he was saying, then this intent (today) is unknown, so he can be made to say something else. If the author thought he knew what he was saying, God can still make him "say" something else, and it's correct, because God was being profound.

So, Isaiah might have had a metaphor in mind, when he thought of 7:14 : that you young woman would bear a child, who would be "Immanuel". This son of God would help out Judah in the time of Isaiah. Then "Matthew" comes along and abuses the Greek Septuagint translation that she was a virgin. After all, she must have been a virgin, because a young woman with child, out of wedlock, can't possibly exist in Jewish culture. (QED) Even if she was originally a metaphor.

Therefore, if you can find a way of abusing scripture, then God approves of it.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.