Author Topic: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768  (Read 2301 times)

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Online jdawg70

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2014, 11:22:27 AM »
I do not wish to get into an argument with Lukvance regarding his Church. As I have stated many times before, the heads of the Church (Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests etc etc etc) all know who they are worshipping (Satan) but the people in the congregation may not know. This means they can still go to Heaven if they believe in Jesus as their Savior. God will forgive them. Now, obviously some of them hear this news about their Church and ignore it and stay in the Church. These are the ones God would be upset with.

Lukvance (I am sure) has heard all the stories about the Church being run by demons. If he chooses to stay in the Church then that is his free will decision and he will have to deal with it.

I can only be the messenger. I can't force someone to leave. Everyone is a grown adult capable of making their own decisions.

I am pretty sure that Lukvance does not believe that the Church is run by demons.

His free will decision is to follow god.  He believes that the Catholic church is the one, holy, and apostolic church of god.  According to you, the situation that may very be that Satan has convinced Lukvance that he is actually following god, when he is merely being tricked into following god:
That is a false view. Satan masquerades as an angel of light. He'll be very nice to you if you're worshiping him. He will make you think you are worshiping God. He will give you things and you will think it's God giving them to you. He'll be your best pal, your best buddy....until the End Times when he will just laugh at you.

Now...

Both you and Lukvance are operating under the impression that yourselves are, in fact, actually worshiping god (i.e. Lukvance believes he is following the actual god; skeptic54768 believes he is following the actual god) .  Both you and Lukvance are operating under the impression that you have, in fact, actually found god (i.e. Lukvance believes has found the actual god; skeptic54768 believes he has found the actual god) .  Now, according to you, what Lukvance thinks he has found as god is actually Satan.  Perhaps he has heard the stories regarding popes/bishops worshiping Satan, and, in concert with this rather powerful entity, their attempts to trick the Catholic laity into thinking they are following, worshiping, and serving the actual god but are, in fact, being tricked into following, worshiping, and serving.

You are correct - Lukvance has made his choice.  His choice is to follow god, but, according to you, it is very possible that he thinks he is actually following god but is, in fact, not following god.  It is in your power to aid him in his search for god - it is in your power to explain to him - to convince him - that the organization that he belongs to...the organization he supports...the organization that he thinks is an instrument of god...is, in fact, a very powerful tool of Satan.

As far as I know (as he has yet to chime in), Lukvance does not believe that the pope/bishops are being controlled by Satan.  Truth be told I wouldn't count on him having necessarily heard these stories - save for the rare quip I would hear from an evangelical on the TV, I can say that I didn't really hear any stories regarding the pope/bishops being controlled by Satan when I was a practicing Catholic.  But even if he had heard the stories...well, let's just say that you've heard the stories of Allah and Vishnu and you don't seem to buy into those.  Perhaps Lukvance doesn't buy your stories regarding Satan-controlled popes for the same reason.  Perhaps not.  But that would seem strange for Lukvance to want to follow god, know full well that the Catholic church is being controlled by Satan, and still want to belong to the Catholic church.  No, I'll do one better - that wouldn't be strange, that would be mind-bogglingly stupid.  Like, Israelites-building-a-golden-calf-to-worship-after-directly-observing-god's-actions stupid.  So you're either calling Lukvance one of the dumbest human beings to have ever existed, a tool amongst the laity for Satan to further his trickery, or you simply don't understand that Lukvance doesn't know that the leaders of the Catholic church are in concert with Satan.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2014, 11:25:27 AM »
Skep it is your opinion that the Catholic Church elders know they worship Satan,could you explain the position,provide evidence? skeptic you know of course the Catholic elders position is that you are the one who worships Satan?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online jdawg70

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #31 on: June 23, 2014, 11:31:30 AM »
Before this thread gets too big...

I don't necessarily want skeptic54768 to defend his view that the Catholic church is an organization run by Satan to the atheists here on this forum.  I mean, it's interesting conversation and all, and I'd certainly like to keep that topic going in other threads, but my primary interest in this thread is for one of the following:

1) skeptic54768 to defend his view that the Catholic church is an organization run by Satan to Lukvance (or any other Catholic who may wish to chime in I suppose).
2) Lukvance to defend his view that the Catholic church is an organization representing god's presence on Earth and not run by Satan to skeptic54768.
3) Both Lukvance and skeptic54768 to defend both their views and explain how both can possibly be true in one shared, objective reality.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline wow

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #32 on: June 23, 2014, 01:57:15 PM »
skeptic54768, I'm slightly confused by your assertion that the RC church is run by demons but yours isn't.

Isn't your church, and all christianity, and its teaching derived from catholicism? If the errors in catholicism were there from the beginning doesn't that mean that they have been copied into your church?

My Church is my Christian brothers and sisters around me. Bible says "Where 2 or more gather in my name, I am with them."

It could be my house. It could be at the park. It could be at a restaurant. It could be sitting in a car.

Thanks but that's not really what I mean.
To clarify: by church i mean your christian denomination.
WithouTt the catholic church christianity wouldn't have spread through europe, there wouldn't have been the protestant reformation[1] and therefore there would be no widespread christianity.
Where did your version of christianity originate? Was it from one of the spinoffs of the catholic church or did it form totally independently?
If so why do you use the bible, which was collated by catholics?
 1. http://www.theopedia.com/Protestant_Reformation

My version of Christianity originated with Jesus. The books that recorded Jesus life were around long before they were put into the Bible. They are independent sources.

When you say your version of Christianity originated with Jesus, without being particular about what that version is, I would like to ask on what books you base your views?

When talking about the books that recorded Jesus his life.. There are many books/Gospels written which had a view on that.. We know the 4 that got into the bible, though for example even Gospels that didn't make it into the bible had something to say about his life.. Some of them were also written recently after Jesus his "death"..

I therefore wonder, is your version, also taking those into account? If not and you consider only the books which deal with Jesus his life, "which got into the bible", then you're inherently skipping the process of how the early church leaders, for example Ireneaus, decided what should have been the leading view in Christianity.. We know that he did represent the early Catholic church..
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 02:01:03 PM by wow »

Online jdawg70

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #33 on: June 23, 2014, 05:10:12 PM »
Why jump straight to the "neither of you is right" mentality? That is unfair. It's not really any different from atheists thinking that only they are right and everyone else is wrong.

You know...I was thinking about this.

Jumping straight to 'neither of you is right' is really the only fair option.

One cannot assume that one of you is right and the other is not on the onset - that would be a biased position towards whoever is simply assumed to be correct on the onset.  One cannot assume that both of you are right, as they are mutually-exclusive claims.  So really, the only fair mentality on the onset is to assume that neither of you are correct until one of you brings out some evidence to support your claim.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2014, 06:44:43 PM »
I do not believe that the pope/bishops are being controlled by Satan. Never heard of such things before today. That's a fun one.
What would someone controlled by Satan looks like? (for me I think of "the exorcist" the movie)
Why would Satan possess them and not me?
Do they have telekinetic powers like the OTIII of Scientology?
Who is Satan for you skeptic54768? Maybe we don't have the same Satan?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2014, 06:46:52 PM »
I do not believe that the pope/bishops are being controlled by Satan. Never heard of such things before today. That's a fun one.
What would someone controlled by Satan looks like? (for me I think of "the exorcist" the movie)
Why would Satan possess them and not me?
Do they have telekinetic powers like the OTIII of Scientology?
Who is Satan for you skeptic54768? Maybe we don't have the same Satan?
DUH Satan possess them and not you for the power trip.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline One Above All

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2014, 06:46:56 PM »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline eh!

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2014, 03:44:11 AM »
"Maybe we don't have the same satan"


How many satans are there?


Which one is the most satanic satan?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2014, 08:25:19 AM »
Why jump straight to the "neither of you is right" mentality? That is unfair. It's not really any different from atheists thinking that only they are right and everyone else is wrong.

It may seem unfair to you, but that is only because you are wrong.   Often times one person or a group of people think they are right and everyone else is wrong, and it turns out to be the case. 

Here is a good example: Iraq.  Before the war some people predicted all sorts or problems with it.  Others waved their hands and dismissed those problems.  Well, it turns out the former were right about everything and everyone else was wrong.  I am sure the war hawks are disappointed and don't like it.  But dems da berries, as they say. 

Similarly, we atheists actually are right and you actually are wrong.  You may not like it and think that is unfair or arrogant.  But dems da berries.  No one said reality was fair.



edit: completed weird, unfinished sentence
« Last Edit: June 26, 2014, 11:36:39 AM by screwtape »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2014, 04:21:54 PM »
^^^^Exactly. If you have the facts on your side, you are more likely to be right about a given subject. If instead of objective, demonstrable, facts, all you have is

a) your personal feelings about a subject,
b) testimonials from people who already agree with you on the subject,
c) stories that may or may not be true about the subject, or
d) unsupported opinions from authority figures about the subject,

and all of these disagree with the objective, demonstrable, facts, then you are much, much more likely to be wrong.  Sadly, most people would rather ignore facts and keep on being wrong. They will wiggle around the truth, redefine words, demand impossible levels of accuracy and precision from the other side, and make analogies that don't fit the situation. People don't like to be wrong, but they really don't like changing their minds when presented with facts.

As evidence, I submit Lukvance and skeptic. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #40 on: June 27, 2014, 03:33:57 AM »
...the heads of the Church (Pope, Bishops, Cardinals, Priests etc etc etc) all know who they are worshipping (Satan) but the people in the congregation may not know. This means they can still go to Heaven if they believe in Jesus as their Savior. God will forgive them. Now, obviously some of them hear this news about their Church and ignore it and stay in the Church. These are the ones God would be upset with.

I do not believe that the pope/bishops are being controlled by Satan. Never heard of such things before today. That's a fun one.

Skeptic, Lukvance had never heard your theory before.  He doesn't believe it.  Like you've said, if he ignores your news, your god will be most upset with him.  Do you not owe it to him to do your best to convince him of the truth of our theory?  If you disengage and do not try to help him, will your god not be displeased with you for not trying to save him?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline eh!

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #41 on: June 27, 2014, 03:38:52 AM »
Skep you owe luk a public apology for your outrageous and hurtful claim and need to ask forgiveness for your vicious lie..... or substantiate your claim.
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2014, 06:37:04 PM »
Lukvance (I am sure) has heard all the stories about the Church being run by demons. If he chooses to stay in the Church then that is his free will decision and he will have to deal with it.

I can only be the messenger. I can't force someone to leave. Everyone is a grown adult capable of making their own decisions.

So it's pretty clear that Lukvance hasn't heard all the stories about the Church being run by demons.  So, skeptic54768 - perhaps now, as a messenger, it would be a good time to relay some of these stories.  Or is the totality of your message "skeptic54768 says that the Catholic church is run by demons?"
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline eh!

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2014, 06:40:58 PM »
Fair request ^.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2014, 09:10:47 PM »
I can indeed sense shit about to go down.

Either Skeptic tries to save Luk's soul, or walks away and alienate his god.

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2014, 09:25:59 PM »
How can you trust what is said in the Bible,if you don't really trust the people who put it together were not influenced by demons. You can't really state that the bible is reliable,when it was put together,edited and censored by people who were influenced by Satan and his minions.

Question is for skeptic
« Last Edit: June 30, 2014, 09:28:11 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #46 on: July 01, 2014, 09:57:05 AM »
I find it amazing that there are two believers in Christ here, who have diametrically opposing views on aspects of faith.  Yet neither one seems to want to try to convince his brother in Christ as to where they are going wrong.

Seems pretty messed up to me.  Hope their god/s don't mind that they are happy to let a mis-led fellow believer go through life doing things wrong.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2014, 11:59:01 AM »
It's almost as if they do not really care about other people, but are only here to reinforce their own personal beliefs or something...... :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2014, 03:29:54 PM »
I find it amazing that there are two believers in Christ here, who have diametrically opposing views on aspects of faith.  Yet neither one seems to want to try to convince his brother in Christ as to where they are going wrong.

Seems pretty messed up to me.  Hope their god/s don't mind that they are happy to let a mis-led fellow believer go through life doing things wrong.
I'm sorry don't put me in the same basket than skeptic54768 . He's the one not answering.
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #49 on: July 01, 2014, 08:38:56 PM »
This thread reminds me of one little known point: Catholics are not Christians to non-catholics and vice versa until its time to show what the #1 religion in the world is....
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Offline Jag

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #50 on: July 01, 2014, 08:54:46 PM »
This thread reminds me of one little known point: Catholics are not Christians to non-catholics and vice versa until its time to show what the #1 religion in the world is....

Oh, come on now. 38,000+ sects, all worshiping the same (trinity of) god(s) from the same unchanging (except for the endless translations and interpretations) book - what could possibly be screwy about those numbers?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2014, 04:30:54 AM »
I find it amazing that there are two believers in Christ here, who have diametrically opposing views on aspects of faith.  Yet neither one seems to want to try to convince his brother in Christ as to where they are going wrong.

Seems pretty messed up to me.  Hope their god/s don't mind that they are happy to let a mis-led fellow believer go through life doing things wrong.
I'm sorry don't put me in the same basket than skeptic54768 . He's the one not answering.

Skeptic is not a Catholic because he believes it is a church run by Satan.  Not being a Catholic, presumably you feel he is on the wrong path?  Is it not YOUR duty to engage his misconceptions and demonstrate how they are wrong, so that he can return to the true church?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #52 on: July 02, 2014, 11:14:45 AM »
Skeptic is not a Catholic because he believes it is a church run by Satan.  Not being a Catholic, presumably you feel he is on the wrong path?  Is it not YOUR duty to engage his misconceptions and demonstrate how they are wrong, so that he can return to the true church?

That is what I believe, yes. The Vatican has an obelisk disc right outside in St. Peter's Square.

This is a symbol of ancient sun worship with pagan gods. (Baal)

Now, why would a church that claims to love Christ have a symbol associated with paganism and freemasonry?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #53 on: July 02, 2014, 11:16:23 AM »
IIRC, Lukvance is a Catholic because they give you the most freedom, and let you drink alcohol and eat pork. Otherwise he might be a Muslim. Or a Mormon.

IIRC skeptic is a whatever he is, Christian Church of One, because god healed a sick dog, and he once saw some bloody letters on a wall that said "get out". Otherwise he might be a Wiccan or a Santero.

Don't expect much in the way of coherent reasoning from these two. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #54 on: July 02, 2014, 11:17:50 AM »
Could it be because Christianity is just a mish-mash of other religions of the time? Steal this,borrow that Bamm Christianity.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #55 on: July 02, 2014, 11:19:34 AM »
There are other "gods" that were born of virgins.... Long before Christ
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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #56 on: July 02, 2014, 11:32:40 AM »
There are other "gods" that were born of virgins.... Long before Christ

Atheistic myth that has been debunked. Zeitgeist should be only be watched for comic relief.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: A thread for Lukvance and skeptic54768
« Reply #57 on: July 02, 2014, 11:38:00 AM »
There are other "gods" that were born of virgins.... Long before Christ

Atheistic myth that has been debunked. Zeitgeist should be only be watched for comic relief.
how do you debunk a virgin birth,without starting with the most famous? Virgin births are myths,because you believe it true does not make it so..... Never watched Zeitgiest
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