Author Topic: Is God a just judge?  (Read 1794 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2014, 01:42:08 AM »
Can he choose to do something that will hurt someone instead of benefit everybody?

Yes, of course. He never will though. But, He could. Just like how I will never lick a toilet seat. But, i could.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2014, 07:34:43 AM »
Can he choose to do something that will hurt someone instead of benefit everybody?

Yes, of course. He never will though. But, He could. Just like how I will never lick a toilet seat. But, i could.
But you said he wouldn't do it, because of his nature. He's bound by his goodness to not do it.

Therefore, he can only do good things, meaning he has no free will.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2014, 08:39:29 AM »
Can he choose to do something that will hurt someone instead of benefit everybody?

Yes, of course. He never will though. But, He could. Just like how I will never lick a toilet seat. But, i could.

What about when he was wondering where Satan was... and asked him "Hey, where you been bro?"  And Satan said, "Wandering around the earth dawg."  And God said, "Look at my good worshiper, Lot... he's my boy!  He worships the heck out of me!  I'm great!"

And Satan said, "He wouldn't worship you so much if you let me smite his stuff."

God said, "Sure, I created you and Lot and the Earth... go to town, smash up his crap."

And Satan killed all of Lot's crops and slaves and family and smashed his house.

Lot didn't bend so God bragged about him some more... "See that guy?  You ruined his life and he's crippled with grief cuz I let you... hahaha...   but he still thinks I'm his great lord!   (idiot)"

Satan struck lot with boils and disease and all of Lot's friends turned on him and said that he must have done something to deserve it since they were too scared of their evil bully god.

Lot pleaded with God but God let him suffer more and more... then God ripped Lot a new one for questioning him.   But, in the end, it all worked out because God gave Lot a new house and family...

...well, except for the servants who were brutally murdered... except for Lot's first family who was brutally murdered...

But I guess those people were just Lot's property right?   Who cares about them?   Certainly not a caring or loving god who took a bet with his buddy Satan.

Yay God!   Our hero.

That's exactly how a loving parent would act right?

Skeptic says to his neighbor.  "My child loves me no matter what!"   Neighbor says, "I bet they wouldn't if you let me destroy all their stuff and killed their friends?"   Skeptic says... "Ho ho ho!   Yes, I will let you do that!  I happily take your bet."     Neighbor goes on rampage but Skeptic's kid still loves him.   Neighbor says, "Well, if you let me inflict all kinds of diseases on your kid?"   Skeptic says, "Sure, go for it!"

After all that, Skeptic's kid still is dumb enough to love him, but questions, "Dad, why did you let the neighbor do all these awful things for no good reason at all when you easily could have stopped him if you claim to love me?"

And Skeptic says, "Ho Ho HO!   How dare you QUESTION ME!?!  Grrr... I am beyond question!   Besides, I'll get you new pets and you can make different friends, and we'll take you to the hospital where they can treat you for super-shingles...   it'll be a few months til you're better but that's ok."

Objectively... no loving parent would EVER... EVER... EVER... act like god.     God does hurt individuals as part of "his plan".

Look at all the supporting characters who die for no reason in the bible?

David sins with Bathsheba... who dies?   The innocent baby... does David die?  No.  Does Bathsheba die?  No.   The baby.

Look at when David screws up the census... who dies?   Random people struck down with god's disease.


Old Testament God = Evil Genie with a Monkey's Paw
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #119 on: July 01, 2014, 09:54:24 AM »
Come on Skeptic, don't run away - did your god have the ability to create us without free will, yes or no?  A central tenet of Christian faith, I thought - surely you know?  Or - at least - you must have a belief one way or the other?

I'm sure God could have.

Thank you.  Now that you have conceded that, how about answering my point?  You know, the one that you tried to derail by claiming god couldn't do something you now agree he could?

No.  Because of the part in bold. If you create something specifically to have a choice, you have no grounds for being hurt if they exercise that right. 

All your analogy reveals is that your god didn't REALLY want them to exercise choice at all.  He wanted love, but was too needy to accept love that was not a choice.

You wanna think about your statement again?

I would, yes.  But I did not have the ability to create them with choice, or without choice.  The only option I have is to create, or not.  If I had the options your god had, then no, I would not have been hurt, because to give them will was my choice because I was so needy.

Why do you think I am an equal to your god, skeptic?  Do you wanna think about your question again?

Yes, you can choose to not create them (which takes away their choice) or you can choose to create them (which gives them a choice.)

What say you?

I say why not read what I wrote?  I do not have the ability to create a child without choice.  I repeat, your god had the third choice - to create without choice - and decided not to do that, for his benefit alone.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jeltz

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #120 on: July 01, 2014, 04:37:21 PM »
How can a being who can never experience the suffering and perspective of its' creations possibly render a fair judgment on those creations?

An immortal, all-powerful, magical judge is incapable of fully understanding what it is like to be mortal and weak. Without that understanding it's not possible to be an unbiased judge.

Jesus experienced more suffering in a day than most people will in 20 lifetimes.

If Jesus is God then how do we know he wasn't faking the suffering and death?

How much can an immortal, all-powerful being actually suffer? It is impossible for us to know if he suffered at all.

If Jesus existed as a God incarnate, worked miracles and then rose from the dead, we have no reason to assume that he actually suffered as mortals would, since he was obviously not human.

We should assume that nothing about human existence would apply to such a being.

I guess it isn't likely that Skeptic will respond to my questions.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #121 on: July 02, 2014, 01:26:38 AM »
I guess it isn't likely that Skeptic will respond to my questions.

My apologies.

The answer to your question is that Jesus had the full human experience in the human fleshly body. This would include pain, sadness, sorrow, etc etc etc.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #122 on: July 02, 2014, 01:41:56 AM »
The answer to your question is that Jesus had the full human experience in the human fleshly body. This would include pain, sadness, sorrow, etc etc etc.

Well, that's an intriguing assertion, but why would an omniscient god need to incarnate in order to feel those things?

Oh, and don't forget that "the full human experience" also includes experiences unique to female humans --

-- Then again, the Fig Tree Incident could have been PMS ...
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #123 on: July 02, 2014, 02:00:53 AM »
Well, that's an intriguing assertion, but why would an omniscient god need to incarnate in order to feel those things?

Oh, and don't forget that "the full human experience" also includes experiences unique to female humans --

-- Then again, the Fig Tree Incident could have been PMS ...

Well, Jesus had to be one or the other. If he was a female, you would say "what about the unique male experiences?" This is known as the dishonest set-up.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #124 on: July 02, 2014, 10:14:46 AM »
... don't forget that "the full human experience" also includes experiences unique to female humans ...
Well, Jesus had to be one or the other. If he was a female, you would say "what about the unique male experiences?" This is known as the dishonest set-up.

Dishonest?  No, I think this is a legitimate observation, at least in the context of a "full" human experience.  As well as gender-specific issues, a few other things are missing, including old age and living with chronic disease.

Furthermore, there's one critical human experience missing:

"Sinning."

Of course, this might pose problems if the alleged purpose of Jesus's mission was for him to be an unblemished sacrifice.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2014, 10:16:38 AM by Astreja »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #125 on: July 03, 2014, 10:55:23 PM »
... don't forget that "the full human experience" also includes experiences unique to female humans ...
Well, Jesus had to be one or the other. If he was a female, you would say "what about the unique male experiences?" This is known as the dishonest set-up.

Dishonest?  No, I think this is a legitimate observation, at least in the context of a "full" human experience.  As well as gender-specific issues, a few other things are missing, including old age and living with chronic disease.

Furthermore, there's one critical human experience missing:

"Sinning."

Of course, this might pose problems if the alleged purpose of Jesus's mission was for him to be an unblemished sacrifice.

But, this is merely nitpicking.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #126 on: July 03, 2014, 10:59:29 PM »
I guess it isn't likely that Skeptic will respond to my questions.

My apologies.

The answer to your question is that Jesus had the full human experience in the human fleshly body. This would include pain, sadness, sorrow, etc etc etc.
How can an all powerful being feel pain? Did he just "flick" the sense switch on to feel it? Meaning he could control when the pain would stop or just choose to not feel it anymore? Or wa he totally weakened into a human with no special powers?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #127 on: July 03, 2014, 11:05:36 PM »
How can an all powerful being feel pain? Did he just "flick" the sense switch on to feel it? Meaning he could control when the pain would stop or just choose to not feel it anymore? Or wa he totally weakened into a human with no special powers?

Once He was in the human body, He felt pain because that's what a fleshly body is designed to do. If He didn't feel pain, then God was not in a flesh and blood body.

This is all very basic stuff.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #128 on: July 03, 2014, 11:08:16 PM »
How can an all powerful being feel pain? Did he just "flick" the sense switch on to feel it? Meaning he could control when the pain would stop or just choose to not feel it anymore? Or wa he totally weakened into a human with no special powers?

Once He was in the human body, He felt pain because that's what a fleshly body is designed to do. If He didn't feel pain, then God was not in a flesh and blood body.

This is all very basic stuff.
So, an all powerful god was hurt by something.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #129 on: July 03, 2014, 11:15:49 PM »
So, an all powerful god was hurt by something.

As a human, yes. You're just trying to play, "Gotcha!" though.

if I said, "you're right. God can't be hurt" then you would say, "then he's not all-powerful because He can't be hurt."

please pick one.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #130 on: July 03, 2014, 11:17:46 PM »
So, an all powerful god was hurt by something.

As a human, yes. You're just trying to play, "Gotcha!" though.

if I said, "you're right. God can't be hurt" then you would say, "then he's not all-powerful because He can't be hurt."

please pick one.

Pick one? How about C, prove that god exists so I can seriously refute your non answers?

On topic: So at any point, could he have chosen to turn the pain off? Did he have magical powers?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #131 on: July 03, 2014, 11:20:27 PM »
Pick one? How about C, prove that god exists so I can seriously refute your non answers?

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” - Stuart Chase

On topic: So at any point, could he have chosen to turn the pain off? Did he have magical powers?

Seriously? I think the kids at Sunday School ask better questions about God.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #132 on: July 03, 2014, 11:21:57 PM »
Sigh, just answer.

The quote doesn't dismiss you from burden of proof. Anytime now, I'm still waiting.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #133 on: July 03, 2014, 11:24:39 PM »
Pick one? How about C, prove that god exists so I can seriously refute your non answers?

“For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible.” - Stuart Chase

On topic: So at any point, could he have chosen to turn the pain off? Did he have magical powers?

Seriously? I think the kids at Sunday School ask better questions about God.
Skep I know you never really answer a question with actual fact,just with baseless assertions and claims the Bible is true,with NO evidence to back it up.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #134 on: July 03, 2014, 11:27:48 PM »
Skep I know you never really answer a question with actual fact,just with baseless assertions and claims the Bible is true,with NO evidence to back it up.

I have never seen a reason to not trust the Bible. What makes it so unbelievable?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #135 on: July 03, 2014, 11:29:48 PM »
Skep I know you never really answer a question with actual fact,just with baseless assertions and claims the Bible is true,with NO evidence to back it up.

I have never seen a reason to not trust the Bible. What makes it so unbelievable?
Guys, please don't answer to this. Please.

Lets get back on topic.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #136 on: July 03, 2014, 11:34:02 PM »
Skep I know you never really answer a question with actual fact,just with baseless assertions and claims the Bible is true,with NO evidence to back it up.

I have never seen a reason to not trust the Bible. What makes it so unbelievable?
That does not answer the Question about Baseless assertions and claims 66% of the worlds population has no trust in your collection of myths.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #137 on: July 03, 2014, 11:44:59 PM »
That does not answer the Question about Baseless assertions and claims 66% of the worlds population has no trust in your collection of myths.

Please don't make me cite the world numbers of atheism and how 85% of the world doesn't agree with atheism.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #138 on: July 03, 2014, 11:46:44 PM »
That does not answer the Question about Baseless assertions and claims 66% of the worlds population has no trust in your collection of myths.

Please don't make me cite the world numbers of atheism and how 85% of the world doesn't agree with atheism.
WTF does that have to do with a majority of the world seeing your book collection as myth?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #139 on: July 03, 2014, 11:49:39 PM »
WTF does that have to do with a majority of the world seeing your book collection as myth?

because you're trying to use it to show that Christianity is false because the majority doesn't agree with it.

But, that logic disproves atheism as well because the majority of the world doesn't agree with it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #140 on: July 03, 2014, 11:56:06 PM »
WTF does that have to do with a majority of the world seeing your book collection as myth?

because you're trying to use it to show that Christianity is false because the majority doesn't agree with it.

But, that logic disproves atheism as well because the majority of the world doesn't agree with it.
Atheism makes no positive claims,without evidence,theologys,all of them do. Atheist have found no evidence of God(s) that is what it is.

Just because others are delusional as well as you is another baseless claim. my position is not the correct one because you say so,it is what a reasonable human can decide based on gathered evidence.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2014, 12:00:35 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #141 on: July 03, 2014, 11:57:42 PM »
Other than making baseless claims and assertions without concrete evidence what have you given us?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #142 on: July 04, 2014, 12:31:32 PM »
Come on Skeptic, don't run away - did your god have the ability to create us without free will, yes or no?  A central tenet of Christian faith, I thought - surely you know?  Or - at least - you must have a belief one way or the other?

I'm sure God could have.

Thank you.  Now that you have conceded that, how about answering my point?  You know, the one that you tried to derail by claiming god couldn't do something you now agree he could?

No.  Because of the part in bold. If you create something specifically to have a choice, you have no grounds for being hurt if they exercise that right. 

All your analogy reveals is that your god didn't REALLY want them to exercise choice at all.  He wanted love, but was too needy to accept love that was not a choice.

You wanna think about your statement again?

I would, yes.  But I did not have the ability to create them with choice, or without choice.  The only option I have is to create, or not.  If I had the options your god had, then no, I would not have been hurt, because to give them will was my choice because I was so needy.

Why do you think I am an equal to your god, skeptic?  Do you wanna think about your question again?

Yes, you can choose to not create them (which takes away their choice) or you can choose to create them (which gives them a choice.)

What say you?

I say why not read what I wrote?  I do not have the ability to create a child without choice.  I repeat, your god had the third choice - to create without choice - and decided not to do that, for his benefit alone.

Bump - since when I first asked it, Skeptic tried to derail with a point that he later agreed was incorrect.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jeltz

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #143 on: July 05, 2014, 11:04:57 PM »
I guess it isn't likely that Skeptic will respond to my questions.

My apologies.

The answer to your question is that Jesus had the full human experience in the human fleshly body. This would include pain, sadness, sorrow, etc etc etc.

He had no such thing. The scriptures describe Jesus as clearly NOT human. There's no way to know that Jesus experienced any human emotions or feelings at all and we can rightly assume that is not the case. There is no justification for the claim that Jesus experienced anything like humanity, unless you claim that humans are capable of walking on water, turning water to wine, raising the dead and all that stuff. You know-- capable of performing amazing miracles that would make them worthy of basing an entire religion over.

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #144 on: July 06, 2014, 01:35:58 AM »
Jesus the human had girlfriends wife children, fought in wars, watched a relative or loved on slowly die if cancer. jesus faced confusion about the existence of god jesus knew jealousy hate and lied. jesus was unaware the he was actually his own son and father...of himself. just a few small points that would make him just a regular standard human.


skep curious are you between the ages of 12 - 14?
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