Author Topic: Is God a just judge?  (Read 1712 times)

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Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #29 on: June 23, 2014, 03:07:59 PM »
^^ You know, you don't have to say that after every mention of the G-word.
Skeptic knows he can't do it. No theist can. That's where their arguments fall apart. They can keep saying stuff about god, why it does what it does, why it created us, etc. but that all goes to trash when I ask them to prove it exists in the first place.

Look at how many theist already claimed to be unable to prove god; Philisopher, although I like him, Junebug, same, John 3:16, and I think Old Chruch Guy might or might not have said that.

It's quite funny, really.

Yea kind of like nobody here can answer what started the big bang.  Hilarious.  hahaha  Oh no can't go there. 

As to whether or not God is a just God, who knows.  My perception says It is.
Haha, you are right. You can't go there. YOU are saying God made the world. You have to prove it.

We don't claim anything about the "before" of the Big Bang. We are researching, using math, physics, and EVIDENCE to piece together the puzzle.

You guys can't even find the puzzle piece box,
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Jeltz

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2014, 03:46:03 PM »
How can a being who can never experience the suffering and perspective of its' creations possibly render a fair judgment on those creations?

An immortal, all-powerful, magical judge is incapable of fully understanding what it is like to be mortal and weak. Without that understanding it's not possible to be an unbiased judge.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2014, 01:05:53 AM »
How can a being who can never experience the suffering and perspective of its' creations possibly render a fair judgment on those creations?

An immortal, all-powerful, magical judge is incapable of fully understanding what it is like to be mortal and weak. Without that understanding it's not possible to be an unbiased judge.

Jesus experienced more suffering in a day than most people will in 20 lifetimes.

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2014, 06:37:26 AM »
How can a being who can never experience the suffering and perspective of its' creations possibly render a fair judgment on those creations?

An immortal, all-powerful, magical judge is incapable of fully understanding what it is like to be mortal and weak. Without that understanding it's not possible to be an unbiased judge.

Jesus experienced more suffering in a day than most people will in 20 lifetimes.

That's probably debatable. Consider the potential scope for pain in twenty lifetimes added together. But be that as it may, even if it's true, there are also countless people who have suffered as much or more, and for far, far longer periods of time.

You will likely counter with something to the effect that it was worse because it was completely undeserved for a perfect being, and that the "best" of us fallen, tainted humans deserves any amount of agony we might get.

But Jesus (assuming the story is all true for this particular argument) still chose to undertake this suffering, which, in itself, would make it more bearable than something striking another person at random. Then, too, he knew, going into it, that it would be both finite (far easier to deal with than random pain of unknown duration is while experiencing it) and a potentially universal boon to every soul ever created, the very purposefulness of which should be enough to elevate the suffering to something akin to joy.

And on top of that, he had eternity at god's right hand as the king of kings waiting for him upon completion.

So tell me again how Jesus' suffering is more uniquely painful than that of any random person crippled in an accident and living as a street person in constant pain because of it, or a child stricken with cancer, or one born into misery which will cause nothing but pain for him or her throughout a lifetime which might be mercifully short, but still hundreds of times more protracted than Jesus' time on the cross.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #33 on: June 25, 2014, 04:52:37 AM »
How can a being who can never experience the suffering and perspective of its' creations possibly render a fair judgment on those creations?

An immortal, all-powerful, magical judge is incapable of fully understanding what it is like to be mortal and weak. Without that understanding it's not possible to be an unbiased judge.

Jesus experienced more suffering in a day than most people will in 20 lifetimes.

Even if we grant this, there's more to life than pain.  Did he ever have a crush on a girl?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline eh!

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2014, 05:29:28 AM »
What a crok, jeebus spent a few hours on the cross preceeded by eternity in heaven and proceeded by an eternity in heaven.   BIG FUKIN DEAL.

skep you are as ignorant as you are stupid. millions of people have suffered far worse torture for far longer periods.

what a jerk.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2014, 06:55:44 AM »
imagine how it must feel to be all excited and happy to create wonderful free-willed creatures and they turn their back on you, while some claim you don't even exist. Horrible, just horrible.

Like Jynnan pointed out - that's what you have to expect if you're going to create free will. 

Then again, if you are so needy that your need for people to choose to love you outweighs your desire for nobody to go to hell for their choices, then you've lost any sympathy from me.

Eternal punishment for not worshipping a god you do not believe exists.  Horrible, just horrible.  FAR more so than poor little diddums god that you propose - a god who you seem to suggest at that stage has NO ability to see the future consequences of his actions. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline eh!

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2014, 07:27:27 AM »
Horrible or just a shitty blue-print.

this is the one time i will say godidit and did it poorly.

sloppy work god, glad yr not in the aerospace industry my god what a fuk up that would be.
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Online Graybeard

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2014, 08:14:23 AM »
I can't even imagine how it must feel to be all excited and happy to create wonderful free-willed creatures and they turn their back on you, while some claim you don't even exist. Horrible, just horrible.
I bet you could imagine it: you seem to imagine a lot of things.

Anyhow, how do you know God was "excited and happy"? It was no more effort for him to create us than for you to lift your fork to your mouth.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline dloubet

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #38 on: June 25, 2014, 07:15:22 PM »
How can a being who can never experience the suffering and perspective of its' creations possibly render a fair judgment on those creations?

An immortal, all-powerful, magical judge is incapable of fully understanding what it is like to be mortal and weak. Without that understanding it's not possible to be an unbiased judge.

Jesus experienced more suffering in a day than most people will in 20 lifetimes.

He suffered exactly as much as each the two poor bastards who were nailed up beside him. And they didn't have an important dad that was going to make them Master of the Universe once they were finished dying. Basically, being brought back to life is spitting in the face of the sacrifices permanently dead people suffer for.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #39 on: June 25, 2014, 08:52:42 PM »
Poor Jesus, died for nothing.

Ouch, one first class ticket to hell confirmed.

You have some "pain scale" to see how much he suffered? Did you forget the Holocaust? Human ovens, gas chambers, horrific biological experiments, and dying of suffocation in an airless and lightless room?

One guy hanging on a cross for 6 hours...versus 11,000,000 people, including 1,000,000 children.

One guy, God's magical son, with a confirmed trip to heaven and eternity.

11 million, who did NOT accept jesus, with a confirmed trip to hell. "No one comes to the father but through me."

Now, whose sufferent was worse, one guy bleeding on the cross, or 11 million burning, suffocating for days, licking dirty floors for survival, sweeping ashes of their own people, father and son fighting over food...?

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2014, 12:38:47 AM »
I bet you could imagine it: you seem to imagine a lot of things.

Anyhow, how do you know God was "excited and happy"? It was no more effort for him to create us than for you to lift your fork to your mouth.

Does that take anything away from what God did, though? The fact that Peyton Manning is naturally good at football and makes it look effortless doesn't take anything away from his games. People still watch him play.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2014, 12:40:12 AM »

He suffered exactly as much as each the two poor bastards who were nailed up beside him
. And they didn't have an important dad that was going to make them Master of the Universe once they were finished dying. Basically, being brought back to life is spitting in the face of the sacrifices permanently dead people suffer for.

The 2 guys next to Jesus were whipped the whole time while carrying their crosses? The 2 guys next to Jesus also had a crown of thorns shoved into their skulls?

Do you know the Bible?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2014, 12:42:42 AM »
Poor Jesus, died for nothing.

Ouch, one first class ticket to hell confirmed.

You have some "pain scale" to see how much he suffered? Did you forget the Holocaust? Human ovens, gas chambers, horrific biological experiments, and dying of suffocation in an airless and lightless room?

One guy hanging on a cross for 6 hours...versus 11,000,000 people, including 1,000,000 children.

One guy, God's magical son, with a confirmed trip to heaven and eternity.

11 million, who did NOT accept jesus, with a confirmed trip to hell. "No one comes to the father but through me."

Now, whose sufferent was worse, one guy bleeding on the cross, or 11 million burning, suffocating for days, licking dirty floors for survival, sweeping ashes of their own people, father and son fighting over food...?

You can't compare it to the whole population. I was talking about individually. Your argument is akin to saying, "Well, Johnny Cash wasn't that good because his song total only makes up about .00001% of every song ever recorded by every band that ever lived."
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2014, 04:32:55 AM »

He suffered exactly as much as each the two poor bastards who were nailed up beside him
. And they didn't have an important dad that was going to make them Master of the Universe once they were finished dying. Basically, being brought back to life is spitting in the face of the sacrifices permanently dead people suffer for.

The 2 guys next to Jesus were whipped the whole time while carrying their crosses? The 2 guys next to Jesus also had a crown of thorns shoved into their skulls?

Do you know the Bible?

It is possible they were flogged first it, doesn't say they weren't. the bible does however say that they were still alive and suffering after jesus had died and that they also had their legs broken which jesus didn't have to go through as he was already dead.

Quote
John 19:32 The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs

not that I believe any of this.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2014, 04:40:12 AM »
Poor Jesus, died for nothing.

Ouch, one first class ticket to hell confirmed.

You have some "pain scale" to see how much he suffered? Did you forget the Holocaust? Human ovens, gas chambers, horrific biological experiments, and dying of suffocation in an airless and lightless room?

One guy hanging on a cross for 6 hours...versus 11,000,000 people, including 1,000,000 children.

One guy, God's magical son, with a confirmed trip to heaven and eternity.

11 million, who did NOT accept jesus, with a confirmed trip to hell. "No one comes to the father but through me."

Now, whose sufferent was worse, one guy bleeding on the cross, or 11 million burning, suffocating for days, licking dirty floors for survival, sweeping ashes of their own people, father and son fighting over food...?

You can't compare it to the whole population. I was talking about individually. Your argument is akin to saying, "Well, Johnny Cash wasn't that good because his song total only makes up about .00001% of every song ever recorded by every band that ever lived."
Alright. Are you saying the suffering of Jesus was farrrr worse than a single Jew who had to go through a days long train ride in cramped cells, without food or water, or even ventilation, and dead bodies of his buddies as they dead along the way? And once he made it there, he had to stay in dirty conditions and eat sawdust bread and lick the floors for even a drop of water? And once his turn came, he was burned in an oven, taken to the doc who injected him with horrific chemicals to test the effects, or get suffocated slowly in a dark room?

Whose is worse? We can't call it a fact, however.

You say Jesus died because of a god, which you have not proven to exist, and the Jew then, would have died for nothing?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline eh!

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #45 on: June 26, 2014, 04:43:28 AM »
Crows would have more than likely ate their eyes out while they were still alive.


skep is irrational claiming jeebus has somehow suffered in some more extremw way than countless thousands before and sincen
L

so dishonest. isn't that a sin.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #46 on: June 26, 2014, 05:19:18 AM »

He suffered exactly as much as each the two poor bastards who were nailed up beside him
. And they didn't have an important dad that was going to make them Master of the Universe once they were finished dying. Basically, being brought back to life is spitting in the face of the sacrifices permanently dead people suffer for.

The 2 guys next to Jesus were whipped the whole time while carrying their crosses? The 2 guys next to Jesus also had a crown of thorns shoved into their skulls?

Do you know the Bible?

Riiight. The crown of thorns. Because that's what REALLY hurt.

Name me one thing the Jesus character didn't supposedly get back, infinitely improved, 3 days later. Loans aren't usually considered sacrifices, and the Jesus character lost nothing that he didn't get back.
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Offline natlegend

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #47 on: June 26, 2014, 05:54:39 AM »
I'll make fun of him for having to sacrifice himself to himself, so he could save humanity from the wrath of himself.
And yet that is something you will never be able to do: be nailed willingly to a cross for all of humanity. Most people would chicken out, yet you would laugh?

How dare you. What a snide, ignorant thing to say. You know nothing about the caliber of the members on this forum. Don't you ever make that judgement about me, or anyone else. This sort of self-centered smugness really shits me.

Jesus experienced more suffering in a day than most people will in 20 lifetimes.

Oh give me a break! The Romans crucified hundreds of human beings in the exact same manner. How was your 'Jesus' any different? Particularly considering the story says he rose from the dead three days later.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #48 on: June 26, 2014, 05:59:05 AM »
Oh give me a break! The Romans crucified hundreds thousands[1] of human beings in the exact same manner. How was your 'Jesus' any different? Particularly considering the story says he rose from the dead three days later.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_Way#The_crucifixion_of_Spartacus.27_army

Crucifixion wasn't a rare punishment at all. Or the worst.

Offline natlegend

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2014, 06:01:17 AM »
The 2 guys next to Jesus were whipped the whole time while carrying their crosses? The 2 guys next to Jesus also had a crown of thorns shoved into their skulls?

Oh FUCK OFF!!!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #50 on: June 26, 2014, 10:56:31 AM »
Is a judgement just if the judge regrets his decision and is deeply troubled afterwards?

Genesis 6.6: "The LORD regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled."

I can't even imagine how it must feel to be all excited and happy to create wonderful free-willed creatures and they turn their back on you, while some claim you don't even exist. Horrible, just horrible.

This problem is very easily solved.   Just show up, slap down so 100% positive proof that you're real, emotionally mature, in charge, and really care.

My daughter knows I'm real because I actively participate in her life, and I'm fully invested in helping her to make good decisions.   Her relationship with me is tangible, and when I talk to her, it's not just as a voice in her head that never tells her anything different than what she's already thinking.

If a scientist in a lab manages to re-create the spark of life and create some small new organism with limited ability, should he be angry if the cells on the slide don't know there's a scientist?   If the scientist claims to love each and every one of those cells, should he burn them for eternity if they don't believe in him?

How concerned would the scientist be that the cells build tabernacles in just the right way or offer up burnt offerings of other cells?

And shouldn't god be "more" moral than a scientist in a lab?  Not far less?
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #51 on: June 26, 2014, 11:03:41 AM »
What has that to do with whether a judgment is just if a judge regrets his decision and is deeply troubled afterwards?

It was just but it was very very tough for God to do. Just like if a parent has to kick their child to the curb and say "you're on your own." I imagine the parent breaks down crying afterwards and regrets it but stands firm in the decision.

Most quality, loving parents, who eventually give up on their child, would have done the following:

- Actively participated in their children's lives.
- Tried to help their children avoid the problems.   They'd try to keep temptation out of arm's reach or teach the consequences.
- If they saw their child about to screw up, they'd step in and warn them, instead of waiting and punishing after.
- Even if they DID kick their child out of the home, they wouldn't kick them INTO an oven which would burn them but not kill them for decades, let alone eternity.

And many times, parents who disown their kids do it for douchey reasons, like, the kid has different beliefs or sexual orientation, but it otherwise a great person who does a lot of good.   Or maybe the parents were religious control freaks, or "do as I say, not as I do types" (like God in the Bible... the worst possible example but he has a different standard so shut up and worship him... lol)

It's very possible that parents are disowning a child because THEY DID A TERRIBLE JOB OF PARENTING besides just that the kid was bad.

The parents have more power, more knowledge, more responsibility, so placing the blame soley on the child who is kicked out is just stupid.

But then, believing in god of the bible is pretty silly too.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #52 on: June 26, 2014, 12:20:42 PM »
My daughter knows I'm real because I actively participate in her life, and I'm fully invested in helping her to make good decisions.   Her relationship with me is tangible, and when I talk to her, it's not just as a voice in her head that never tells her anything different than what she's already thinking.

This is a very important point.  The relationships that believers have with their gods appear to be not with autonomous external beings, but with some aspect of their own minds.  When someone has the proverbial Road to Damascus epiphany and gets religion, it could very easily be the "voice" of cultural programming bubbling to the surface in a moment of stress and desperation.  If there were a real god on the other end of the line, one would think it would give them something more than a hug or a scolding wag of the finger.  As it stands now, all the benefits of new belief look suspiciously like someone seizing the reins of their own life -- But giving the credit to someone else because of a damaged self-image.

Quote
If a scientist in a lab manages to re-create the spark of life and create some small new organism with limited ability, should he be angry if the cells on the slide don't know there's a scientist?   If the scientist claims to love each and every one of those cells, should he burn them for eternity if they don't believe in him?

How concerned would the scientist be that the cells build tabernacles in just the right way or offer up burnt offerings of other cells?

Quite frankly, if I found that the ants in the front garden were building shrines and sacrificing aphids, I'd be more worried than flattered.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #53 on: June 26, 2014, 09:02:22 PM »
Quite frankly, if I found that the ants in the front garden were building shrines and sacrificing aphids, I'd be more worried than flattered.

Ah, but did you specifically create ants for the purpose of seeing who will freely choose to love you and be grateful for the life you have given to them?

Suppose you did just that and some ants were making jokes about you and cursing you and saying how stupid of a designer you were. Wouldn't you be hurt?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #54 on: June 26, 2014, 09:22:53 PM »
Suppose you did just that and some ants were making jokes about you and cursing you and saying how stupid of a designer you were. Wouldn't you be hurt?

I'd be more amused and impressed than hurt.  For ants to do such things would be very impressive, given their limited capabilities.
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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #55 on: June 26, 2014, 09:50:54 PM »
Quite frankly, if I found that the ants in the front garden were building shrines and sacrificing aphids, I'd be more worried than flattered.
Ah, but did you specifically create ants for the purpose of seeing who will freely choose to love you and be grateful for the life you have given to them?
Nope.  Just ants.  Their "purpose" is theirs, not Mine.  If one of them loved Me, I might think it was cute -- But I certainly wouldn't expect to get a long-term relationship out of it.

Quote
Suppose you did just that and some ants were making jokes about you and cursing you and saying how stupid of a designer you were. Wouldn't you be hurt?
No, I wouldn't.  I'd probably start giggling, then say "Okay, guys and gals, show Me what you've got.  Come up with something better, and I'll help you build it."
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #56 on: June 27, 2014, 03:53:07 AM »
Ah, but did you specifically create ants for the purpose of seeing who will freely choose to love you and be grateful for the life you have given to them?

Suppose you did just that and some ants were making jokes about you and cursing you and saying how stupid of a designer you were. Wouldn't you be hurt?

No.  Because of the part in bold.  If you create something specifically to have a choice, you have no grounds for being hurt if they exercise that right. 

All your analogy reveals is that your god didn't REALLY want them to exercise choice at all.  He wanted love, but was too needy to accept love that was not a choice.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2014, 04:36:45 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline natlegend

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Re: Is God a just judge?
« Reply #57 on: June 27, 2014, 04:23:17 AM »
Quite frankly, if I found that the ants in the front garden were building shrines and sacrificing aphids, I'd be more worried than flattered.

Ah, but did you specifically create ants for the purpose of seeing who will freely choose to love you and be grateful for the life you have given to them?

Suppose you did just that and some ants were making jokes about you and cursing you and saying how stupid of a designer you were. Wouldn't you be hurt?

I am not that prideful. Your god certainly has a very thin skin. What a wimp.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.