Author Topic: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...  (Read 8270 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #348 on: August 03, 2014, 12:46:43 AM »
In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

Considering that I am not an expert on evolution, I think it is fair to consult the people who are experts. So, I looked up horse evolution from evolutionists point of view. Then to remain unbiased, I looked up what the creationists had to say about it.
Why didn't you look up what the hair stylists had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the chemists had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the astronomers had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the film critics had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the software engineers had to say about it?

Could it be because those groups are not experts on evolution?  What make you think that the creationists are experts on evolution?

Quote
It would be biased if I just took the evolutionist's word for it.
It would be silly to just assume any old random other organization's opinion on it mattered at all.  Should we also ask the flat earther's for their word on the next high tide?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline atheola

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #349 on: August 03, 2014, 01:04:13 AM »
 Consulting creationists about evolution is kind of like consulting a drunk blacksmith about brain surgery.
You better believe it's not butter or you'll burn in hell forever and EVER!
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #350 on: August 03, 2014, 01:44:54 AM »
In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

Considering that I am not an expert on evolution, I think it is fair to consult the people who are experts. So, I looked up horse evolution from evolutionists point of view. Then to remain unbiased, I looked up what the creationists had to say about it.
Why didn't you look up what the hair stylists had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the chemists had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the astronomers had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the film critics had to say about it?
Why didn't you look up what the software engineers had to say about it?

Could it be because those groups are not experts on evolution?  What make you think that the creationists are experts on evolution?

Quote
It would be biased if I just took the evolutionist's word for it.
It would be silly to just assume any old random other organization's opinion on it mattered at all.  Should we also ask the flat earther's for their word on the next high tide?

I believe that is a false equivalency fallacy.

Creationists have access to the same kind of evidence the evolutionists have and do plenty of research on the subject. We only come to different conclusions based on the exact same evidence. It's basically a "gut feeling" of which option is the correct one. We creationists have a "gut feeling" that creationism is right. You guys have a "gut feeling" that evolution is right.

Maybe if writing and agriculture existed before 6,000 years ago instead of coming into existence coinciding with the biblical age, or if the population was larger than it is now if we were around for so long, then maybe I would feel differently.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #351 on: August 03, 2014, 01:53:29 AM »
That creation.com page makes several bad assumptions.

First is that the "evolutionary gaps" they point out are meaningful.  For example, they state that only fragmentary fossils have been found of Epihippus, and that those fossils resemble those of earlier species such as Orohippus and Eohippus.  However, this does not in any way suggest that there is an evolutionary gap; it simply means we have incomplete information, which often happens in science.  It may turn out that scientists discover that the Epihippus fossils are actually those of earlier species, yet this will in no way contradict the 'macro'-evolutionary development of hyracotherid species, because the other various species have been clearly identified as different.  In short, an evolutionary gap just means we have less than complete information, and cannot justify discarding evolutionary theory, never mind substituting "created kinds" for it (especially since they provide no real evidence for those "created kinds"; instead, they act as if pointing out problems with evolutionary theory means their favored alternative is correct).

Second, their statement that the monophyly of Hyracotherium has been challenged is true.  This is common in science; conclusions are challenged all the time.  Yet that in no way justifies discarding the overall theoretical framework.  It simply means that they are making more specific and accurate classifications, and does not in any way validate "created kinds".  Indeed, it actually further supports evolutionary theory, as it is not believable that every horse precursor existed in a straight line of descent with no divergence whatsoever.

Third, their statement that early horses have been preserved in the same strata as later horses is probably true.  However, that does not negate evolutionary theory, as there is no reason to conclude that all members of early horse species had died out by the time that later ones had evolved.  In fact, drawing that conclusion is more than a little absurd; it is the equivalent of arguing that a person's family tree consists of a straight line rather than a tree with many, many branches.  It would not be reasonable to claim that your cousins could not be related to you simply because you and they lived during the same time, and so it is not reasonable to claim that horse precursors could not have lived at the same time as other horse precursors which preceded them.

Fourth, they make the standard argument about "transitional forms", specifically with horse teeth (and whether they ate leaves or grass).  However, they give no reason to conclude that these different teeth must have been designed, instead limiting themselves to pointing out that there do not seem to be transitional forms between the two.  But why does there need to have been?  There is no reason to conclude that horses transitioned from eating leaves to eating grass; both of these different teeth could have easily diverged from an earlier, more generalized tooth.  All it would have taken then is for the grass-eating horses to have done better than the leaf-eating ones, causing the leaf-eating ones to slowly die out.

Therefore, their conclusion (that these horse ancestors were completely unrelated animals and that there was therefore no horse evolution) is very poorly supported and does not supplant evolutionary theory despite their efforts to claim otherwise.

Excellent post. I can see how dedicated you are to this subject.

I am curious about the evolutionary gap you mention, though. How do you know it will be explained by evolution? isn't that a presupposition that it is evolution?

Also, I have looked at the horse fossils but how do they know for sure they evolved? What if they were just another species that existed within the original kind? We know horses can form new horse species but they will never be anything other than a horse. We know speciation exists on the species level within the original kind, but we never saw speciation on the original kind level.

if you create a simulated world with nothing but horses, then you will only get different kinds of horse species to evolve. You will never see a bird or a kangaroo one day.

if you create a simulated world with nothing but birds, you will never get horses, sharks, etc etc etc. Think of any creature and imagine making a simulated world. You will never get another kind of animal other than the one you started with.

That is the simplest way to explain why evolution just simply can't happen the way they say it does.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2014, 01:56:48 AM by skeptic54768 »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #352 on: August 03, 2014, 02:00:22 AM »
a certain percentage of evidence(how much I don't know) versus 0% evidence.... pretty easy to look to the side(evolution) and see the direction it is going......on the other side guys like Ken Hamm....who lie and deflect....why do you choose to be blind?

Say what you want about Ken, but he stood up for what he believed in and didn't back down. he knew that practically everyone would be laughing at him and he still stuck to his guns. That takes guts, and it shows that he is striving to follow Jesus' example.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jag

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #353 on: August 03, 2014, 07:36:53 AM »
AHEM


In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

I'm still waiting for you to address my original post. I bolded it for you above.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #354 on: August 03, 2014, 07:37:46 AM »
Say what you want about Ken, but he stood up for what he believed in and didn't back down. he knew that practically everyone would be laughing at him and he still stuck to his guns. That takes guts, and it shows that he is striving to follow Jesus' example.

You said it.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #355 on: August 03, 2014, 07:39:41 AM »
Say what you want about Ken, but he stood up for what he believed in and didn't back down. he knew that practically everyone would be laughing at him and he still stuck to his guns. That takes guts, and it shows that he is striving to follow Jesus' example.

It shows that he is filled to the brim with pride and is unwilling to admit error in any way, shape or form.

Is that Jesus' example?
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #356 on: August 03, 2014, 10:25:58 AM »
A short video for Skep and anyone else that thinks evolution didn't happen;

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #357 on: August 03, 2014, 10:43:05 AM »
A short video for Skep and anyone else that thinks evolution didn't happen;



But, that video is not proof. He even admits that he's guessing the chromosomes fused because it seems like the most likely scenario. But, there's no way to say for sure. God could have just made us that way and the evolutionists falsely think it means we evolved. There might not have been any fusing at all.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #358 on: August 03, 2014, 10:44:58 AM »
AHEM


In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

I'm still waiting for you to address my original post. I bolded it for you above.

I am by no means an expert on evolution. But, I do read about it and try to understand what it's saying. But, this always creates more questions than answers for me. Perhaps I am just naturally a skeptic.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #359 on: August 03, 2014, 10:56:18 AM »
Perhaps I am just naturally a skeptic.

...except of course when it comes to Bronze age mythology conflicting with simple mathematics, eh Skep?! When mathematics proves your mythology wrong, which it has, you're not skeptical about Christianity, eh?!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #360 on: August 03, 2014, 11:05:51 AM »
I'm going to go back to the star age proof of old Earth Skep.

For those that haven't followed the star light proof, the European satellite Gaia is directly measuring star distance using trigonometry. Simple maths. Gaia is able to measure stars accurately up to 24,000 light years away. As we know how fast light travels in a vacuum, we know how long the light has been travelling for.

Skep; the bible, according to you, says the universe is 6000 years old. Maths says the universe is at least 24,000 years old. In effect, you have found a passage in the bible that says 2 + 2 = 5 when we know the answer is 4.
How do you rationalise sticking to the 2 + 2 = 5 story? Do you simply pretend that maths is wrong somehow?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #361 on: August 03, 2014, 11:16:06 AM »
I'm going to go back to the star age proof of old Earth Skep.

For those that haven't followed the star light proof, the European satellite Gaia is directly measuring star distance using trigonometry. Simple maths. Gaia is able to measure stars accurately up to 24,000 light years away. As we know how fast light travels in a vacuum, we know how long the light has been travelling for.

Skep; the bible, according to you, says the universe is 6000 years old. Maths says the universe is at least 24,000 years old. In effect, you have found a passage in the bible that says 2 + 2 = 5 when we know the answer is 4.
How do you rationalise sticking to the 2 + 2 = 5 story? Do you simply pretend that maths is wrong somehow?

Didn't they find evidence that the speed of light CAN fluctuate? There's no reason to assume it's always been constant.

Keep in mind even if I didn't believe in the Bible, I would still be skeptical of the modern sciences. It doesn't do anyone any favors just swallowing it whole without question.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #362 on: August 03, 2014, 11:18:09 AM »
I am by no means an expert on evolution. But, I do read about it and try to understand what it's saying. But, this always creates more questions than answers for me. Perhaps I am just naturally a skeptic.

You already accept a limited amount of evolution, which you call microevolution. The best example of microevolution is apes which includes humans on one branch. It is not just creationists but also the professionals in that subject who cannot always tell where the dividing line is between bones which are human and which are other ape lines. To make matters worse the different lines interbred with each other so if you take a DNA "paternity" test you will find that your DNA does not come from a single type of human but it is a mixture of several different types.

Humans were never a single pure species. Even today people in each part of the world have some different DNA from different human lines.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #363 on: August 03, 2014, 11:21:59 AM »
I am by no means an expert on evolution. But, I do read about it and try to understand what it's saying. But, this always creates more questions than answers for me. Perhaps I am just naturally a skeptic.

You already accept a limited amount of evolution, which you call microevolution. The best example of microevolution is apes which includes humans on one branch. It is not just creationists but also the professionals in that subject who cannot always tell where the dividing line is between bones which are human and which are other ape lines. To make matters worse the different lines interbred with each other so if you take a DNA "paternity" test you will find that your DNA does not come from a single type of human but it is a mixture of several different types.

Humans were never a single pure species. Even today people in each part of the world have some different DNA from different human lines.

My reply #351 shows why evolution simply can not happen the way evolutionists say it does.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #364 on: August 03, 2014, 11:22:58 AM »
Didn't they find evidence that the speed of light CAN fluctuate? There's no reason to assume it's always been constant.

Keep in mind even if I didn't believe in the Bible, I would still be skeptical of the modern sciences. It doesn't do anyone any favors just swallowing it whole without question.

The amount that light could fluctuate during the early universe does not affect the age of the universe by any noticeable amount.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #365 on: August 03, 2014, 11:24:55 AM »
In a vacuum with scarce amount of matter, yes it is nearly always constant. Of course it interacts with things along the way, but it's not a large fluctuation that would change 24,000 to 6,000 years. No way in hell.

And science is not blind following; you can literally do all experiments and observations independently, getting similar (or different in which case you might win a noble prize) results.

Edit: Ninja'd by Foxy!
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*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #366 on: August 03, 2014, 11:28:22 AM »
I am by no means an expert on evolution. But, I do read about it and try to understand what it's saying. But, this always creates more questions than answers for me. Perhaps I am just naturally a skeptic.

You already accept a limited amount of evolution, which you call microevolution. The best example of microevolution is apes which includes humans on one branch. It is not just creationists but also the professionals in that subject who cannot always tell where the dividing line is between bones which are human and which are other ape lines. To make matters worse the different lines interbred with each other so if you take a DNA "paternity" test you will find that your DNA does not come from a single type of human but it is a mixture of several different types.

Humans were never a single pure species. Even today people in each part of the world have some different DNA from different human lines.

My reply #351 shows why evolution simply can not happen the way evolutionists say it does.

I am talking about the microevolution of apes and humans. I thought you said you already accept microevolution.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #367 on: August 03, 2014, 11:46:01 AM »
AHEM


In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

I'm still waiting for you to address my original post. I bolded it for you above.

I am by no means an expert on evolution.
Agreed. I could easily put together a pretty compelling argument that you have no idea whatsoever of what you are trying to argue against, as could each and every other memberof the forum. screwtape has already given you an assignment about getting yourself actually educated about this topic before you try to argue anything further about it, and you are blatantly ignoring that instruction. It was posted in green - he wasn't making a suggestion skep, he was giving you specific instruction. Either figure out WTF you are arguing against so you can have an intelligent INFORMED discussion about it, or stop participating in evolution-related topics. He was pretty clear about it.

Quote
But, I do read about it and try to understand what it's saying.

No skep, you keep reading arguments against it, while refusing to understand objectively what the ToE actually tells us. Over and over and over into infinity.

Quote
But, this always creates more questions than answers for me.
Then why keep returning to the same one-sided sources for clarity? Read about it as written by actual scientists with degrees in things related to evolution. Papers and articles on evolution written by actual researching evolutionary biologists seem like a reasonable place to start reading.

Quote
Perhaps I am just naturally a skeptic.

I'd call you a childish dodger; it truly would be insulting to actual skeptics to count you among them.

You managed to once again write an entire post in response to mine without bothering to address my original point. So once again, I'm very clearly repeating my request to address my post directly.

"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #368 on: August 03, 2014, 11:49:10 AM »
I am talking about the microevolution of apes and humans. I thought you said you already accept microevolution.

Now, that is certainly sneaky. But, I am talking about the type of evolution in reply #351.

There is absolutely no possible way a single cell on the ground could give rise to all the genetic information we have today. This is why single cells are still around today. They did not evolve into something else. They are still cells. Some single cells evolved into something else and others didn't?

Start with a cell, you always get cells. Start with birds, you only get birds. Start with frogs, you only get frogs, etc etc etc.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jag

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #369 on: August 03, 2014, 11:55:29 AM »
^^^You're somehow failing to grasp that this post once again demonstrates that you have no idea WTF you are arguing against. This, despite months and months of discussion and links being provided to you.

The other explanation is that you are simply jerking everyone's chain.

In either case, this is the behavior of a troll whether you like the title or not.

"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #370 on: August 03, 2014, 11:57:28 AM »
You really shouldn't be in this conversation, Skep. Not only don't you understand anything, you also don't understand that you don't understand.

You are constantly making assumptions based on what you want to be true. If that worked for me, I'd have a wonderful wife, tons of money, several Ferrari's and a partridge in a pear tree.

You are just guessing that evolution doesn't work. To do that, you have to ignore all the information gathered by science over the last few hundred years. Which, I must admit, you do very well. But that is not a good thing.

But carry on. The nice thing about dealing with the uniformed (which includes you) is that they can always come up with new ways to amuse us with their ignorance. And you've got us laughing our heads off.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #371 on: August 03, 2014, 12:01:05 PM »
You really shouldn't be in this conversation, Skep. Not only don't you understand anything, you also don't understand that you don't understand.

You are constantly making assumptions based on what you want to be true. If that worked for me, I'd have a wonderful wife, tons of money, several Ferrari's and a partridge in a pear tree.

You are just guessing that evolution doesn't work. To do that, you have to ignore all the information gathered by science over the last few hundred years. Which, I must admit, you do very well. But that is not a good thing.

But carry on. The nice thing about dealing with the uniformed (which includes you) is that they can always come up with new ways to amuse us with their ignorance. And you've got us laughing our heads off.

I've never seen any explanation as to how a single cell can give rise to all the genetic information to get all these species. That would be one heck of a magic cell. Single cells still exist. They have always been cells. They never changed into anything else.

What is wrong with my example? Create a simulated world and pick any creature of your choice. How confident are you that completely different animals and species will evolve from that ONE kind of creature?
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #372 on: August 03, 2014, 12:04:45 PM »


No skep, you keep reading arguments against it, while refusing to understand objectively what the ToE actually tells us. Over and over and over into infinity.


But, when I bring up Christianity, you guys immediately look for arguments against it. Why is that a "good sign of a skeptic" but me doing the same thing for evolution is considered "wrong and childish?"
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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #373 on: August 03, 2014, 12:07:34 PM »


No skep, you keep reading arguments against it, while refusing to understand objectively what the ToE actually tells us. Over and over and over into infinity.


But, when I bring up Christianity, you guys immediately look for arguments against it. Why is that a "good sign of a skeptic" but me doing the same thing for evolution is considered "wrong and childish?"

Maybe because the arguments for one thing (christianity) are false, anecdotal, ambiguous, and so on, while the arguments for the other one (evolution) are repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unambiguous, and so on?
But, hey, that's just me.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #374 on: August 03, 2014, 12:11:18 PM »


No skep, you keep reading arguments against it, while refusing to understand objectively what the ToE actually tells us. Over and over and over into infinity.


But, when I bring up Christianity, you guys immediately look for arguments against it. Why is that a "good sign of a skeptic" but me doing the same thing for evolution is considered "wrong and childish?"

Maybe because the arguments for one thing (christianity) are false, anecdotal, ambiguous, and so on, while the arguments for the other one (evolution) are repeatable, verifiable, reliable, unambiguous, and so on?
But, hey, that's just me.

But you can't form an experiment with a single cell with no genetic information for any species, and watch it gain human DNA, or fish DNA, or frog DNA or horse DNA.

I have heard people say "a single cell becomes a human in 9 months" but this misses the point. This cell contains human DNA and all the information necessary to form a human being. The cells of billions of years ago did not possess this human DNA/information.
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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #375 on: August 03, 2014, 12:17:38 PM »


No skep, you keep reading arguments against it, while refusing to understand objectively what the ToE actually tells us. Over and over and over into infinity.


But, when I bring up Christianity, you guys immediately look for arguments against it. Why is that a "good sign of a skeptic" but me doing the same thing for evolution is considered "wrong and childish?"

Nice try but that's not what I said.

And you still haven't addressed my post, despite my repeated requests that you do so.
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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #376 on: August 03, 2014, 12:19:49 PM »
I am talking about the microevolution of apes and humans. I thought you said you already accept microevolution.

Now, that is certainly sneaky. But, I am talking about the type of evolution in reply #351.


Are we agreed on the microevolution of apes and humans then, so we can move on?
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