Author Topic: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...  (Read 8324 times)

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #319 on: July 30, 2014, 10:25:18 PM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #320 on: July 30, 2014, 10:30:58 PM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.
'Kay.

Refer to One Above All's Purple to Red Text Chart. You need to remove this misconception of "micro" and "macro".

Evolution is just that; gradual change. Small mutations add up to cause big change. No where in sane science is "micro" and "macro" put in front of Evolution. It's made up by people who try to get around the evidence.

"Yes sure we can have very small changes, but since we don't turn into flying super humans over night, only micro evolution is true."

"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #321 on: July 30, 2014, 10:35:44 PM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.
'Kay.

Refer to One Above All's Purple to Red Text Chart. You need to remove this misconception of "micro" and "macro".

Evolution is just that; gradual change. Small mutations add up to cause big change. No where in sane science is "micro" and "macro" put in front of Evolution. It's made up by people who try to get around the evidence.

"Yes sure we can have very small changes, but since we don't turn into flying super humans over night, only micro evolution is true."

No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #322 on: July 30, 2014, 10:47:53 PM »
Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.

Humans are a type of ape. There were many different types of human and ape, very difficult to tell apart. That is a nice piece of microevolution, isn't it?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #323 on: July 30, 2014, 11:13:18 PM »
No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.

You don't know anything about evolution either? You are a font of non-knowledge.
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Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #324 on: July 31, 2014, 02:02:37 AM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.

We are also still hominids, primates, mammals, chordates and animals. That is macroevolution.
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #325 on: July 31, 2014, 02:28:36 AM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.
'Kay.

Refer to One Above All's Purple to Red Text Chart. You need to remove this misconception of "micro" and "macro".

Evolution is just that; gradual change. Small mutations add up to cause big change. No where in sane science is "micro" and "macro" put in front of Evolution. It's made up by people who try to get around the evidence.

"Yes sure we can have very small changes, but since we don't turn into flying super humans over night, only micro evolution is true."

No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.

The most complete fossil record for a species is, I understand, the horse. Why not investigate the evolution of the horse, then come back to us with any disagreement you have with the research?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #326 on: July 31, 2014, 05:40:05 AM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.
'Kay.

Refer to One Above All's Purple to Red Text Chart. You need to remove this misconception of "micro" and "macro".

Evolution is just that; gradual change. Small mutations add up to cause big change. No where in sane science is "micro" and "macro" put in front of Evolution. It's made up by people who try to get around the evidence.

"Yes sure we can have very small changes, but since we don't turn into flying super humans over night, only micro evolution is true."

No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.
Wow.

You DO realize we have some transition fossils? Horse is great.

But you know what, I know how you'll get around that.

Super accurate example of evolution (just kidding):
Hurj

Horj

Hors

Horse.

You'll just say "oh where is the transition between hurj and horj? Between hors and horse?

You keep looking from transitions, when the truth is, we have found them; you just keep looking for transitions in between transitions.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #327 on: July 31, 2014, 08:17:08 AM »
in other than knowledge and technology,would you say humans have evolved? We still kill each other at an alarming rate,people stave to death when food is available,certain organisms can still kill us and we pretty much look the same for the last 10,000 years or more. we live longer,are generally healthier,diet and medicine have helped us get there.

Yes, but it is microevolution. We are still humans. We didn't speciate into anything.
'Kay.

Refer to One Above All's Purple to Red Text Chart. You need to remove this misconception of "micro" and "macro".

Evolution is just that; gradual change. Small mutations add up to cause big change. No where in sane science is "micro" and "macro" put in front of Evolution. It's made up by people who try to get around the evidence.

"Yes sure we can have very small changes, but since we don't turn into flying super humans over night, only micro evolution is true."

No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.
Wow.

You DO realize we have some transition fossils? Horse is great.

But you know what, I know how you'll get around that.

Super accurate example of evolution (just kidding):
Hurj

Horj

Hors

Horse.

You'll just say "oh where is the transition between hurj and horj? Between hors and horse?

You keep looking from transitions, when the truth is, we have found them; you just keep looking for transitions in between transitions.

Precisely. Skep; where's the transition between you and your father? I assume there is one? Some half father/half Skep creature?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #328 on: July 31, 2014, 09:19:29 AM »
Ahem...

What I don't understand is that the evolutionists say that all things evolve, but when you ask about crocodiles remaining unchanged for supposedly millions of years, they say "well not everything evolves" or "their environment didn't change."

Really? The crocodiles environment never changed at all in millions of years? not even with the supposed mass dinosaur extinction? Yet, for every other species on Earth, the environment changed? It's like a game of pong back and forth with no real breakthrough.

skep,

It is getting tedious watching you ask basic questions, do no research and then give wrong answers.  I am going to have to insist you earnestly try to find an answer to this question and then report back.

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #329 on: July 31, 2014, 10:35:25 AM »
No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.

Why do you insist on continuing to trot out expectations for a misconception of the Theory of Evolution?

Fossils do not show rapid change, they only show the state a species was at when it was fossilized.  What you are asking for is fossil remains of every individual life form that has ever existed which would be nothing more than an argument from incredulity and ignorance. 

Why do you need to know everything in order to comprehend the Theory of Evolution yet you fully accept the existence of “God” without knowing everything?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #330 on: July 31, 2014, 11:46:12 AM »
No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.

Do you think you'd be able to make up an example of what a transitional fossil that shows transition would actually look like?

You're not picturing a crocoduck, are you?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #331 on: July 31, 2014, 04:02:55 PM »
No, like I was saying in the other thread, the fossils only show rapid change. They don't show transitions. So saying, "x evolved into y" is pure speculation because they can't show it via fossils. They only have a fossil of x and a fossil of y but nothing in-between showing how x got to y.

Do you think you'd be able to make up an example of what a transitional fossil that shows transition would actually look like?

You're not picturing a crocoduck, are you?
$5 he is.

Please heed Screwtape's warning, Skep.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #332 on: August 01, 2014, 03:31:44 AM »
Crocodiles did evolve. However, there is still a line of them around that looks superficially similar to the earlier ones. If we wiped out modern crocodiles, the Skep would be forced to see that crocodiles did evolve.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #333 on: August 01, 2014, 09:38:21 PM »
Do you think you'd be able to make up an example of what a transitional fossil that shows transition would actually look like?

You're not picturing a crocoduck, are you?

I would say that transitional fossil should show some kind of features of the ancestor species and the descendant species.

For example, if a species had 2 eyes and later evolved into a species with 4 eyes, I would expect to see some type of transitional fossil between the two species.

Here's what the fossils show us:

Species A (2 eyes) -----millions of years----------- Species B (4 eyes)
(notice there is absolutely nothing in the middle)

here's what I would expect to see:
Species A (2 eyes) ------Species A.1----Species A.2----etc.---Species B (4 eyes)
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #334 on: August 01, 2014, 09:54:46 PM »
You can look at horse fossils. You can see beautifully how the leg bones changed over time. (Basic biology class).
"God is just and fair"
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*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #335 on: August 01, 2014, 10:34:09 PM »
You can look at horse fossils. You can see beautifully how the leg bones changed over time. (Basic biology class).

Just looked it up and then found this page:

http://creation.com/the-evolution-of-the-horse

it appears to not be as "rock solid proof" as you guys think.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #336 on: August 01, 2014, 10:42:08 PM »
Get it from an actual science source.

Maybe something unbiased by religion.
"God is just and fair"
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*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Jag

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #337 on: August 01, 2014, 10:44:48 PM »
it appears to not be as "rock solid proof" as you guys think.

In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #338 on: August 01, 2014, 11:54:35 PM »
In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

Considering that I am not an expert on evolution, I think it is fair to consult the people who are experts. So, I looked up horse evolution from evolutionists point of view. Then to remain unbiased, I looked up what the creationists had to say about it.

It would be biased if I just took the evolutionist's word for it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #339 on: August 02, 2014, 12:03:14 AM »
Why do you need to know everything in order to comprehend the Theory of Evolution yet you fully accept the existence of “God” without knowing everything?

I do not feel that is a valid question.

Suppose I turned it around:

Why do you need to know everything about God in order to comprehend God, yet you fully accept the theory of evolution without knowing everything?

You wouldn't think that's a fair question, so likewise, I don't think yours is fair either.

We both believe in something that has not been 100% proven, but we each feel our side is about 90% sure.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 12:05:44 AM by skeptic54768 »
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Offline atheola

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #340 on: August 02, 2014, 12:12:20 AM »
Why do you need to know everything in order to comprehend the Theory of Evolution yet you fully accept the existence of “God” without knowing everything?

I do not feel that is a valid question.

Suppose I turned it around:

Why do you need to know everything about God in order to comprehend God, yet you fully accept the theory of evolution without knowing everything?

You wouldn't think that's a fair question, so likewise, I don't think yours is fair either.

We both believe in something that has not been 100% proven, but we each feel our side is about 90% sure.
First off, the only pictures of'god' are old paintings of an old dude in a beard and since we don't see hair hanging down from the sky we must assume that's fake or at least I figure it's fake and secondly we have LOTS of examples of evolution to drive the Ken Hamm's of the world far battier than even a Bill Nye video can possibly portray..
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #341 on: August 02, 2014, 01:06:37 AM »
That creation.com page makes several bad assumptions.

First is that the "evolutionary gaps" they point out are meaningful.  For example, they state that only fragmentary fossils have been found of Epihippus, and that those fossils resemble those of earlier species such as Orohippus and Eohippus.  However, this does not in any way suggest that there is an evolutionary gap; it simply means we have incomplete information, which often happens in science.  It may turn out that scientists discover that the Epihippus fossils are actually those of earlier species, yet this will in no way contradict the 'macro'-evolutionary development of hyracotherid species, because the other various species have been clearly identified as different.  In short, an evolutionary gap just means we have less than complete information, and cannot justify discarding evolutionary theory, never mind substituting "created kinds" for it (especially since they provide no real evidence for those "created kinds"; instead, they act as if pointing out problems with evolutionary theory means their favored alternative is correct).

Second, their statement that the monophyly of Hyracotherium has been challenged is true.  This is common in science; conclusions are challenged all the time.  Yet that in no way justifies discarding the overall theoretical framework.  It simply means that they are making more specific and accurate classifications, and does not in any way validate "created kinds".  Indeed, it actually further supports evolutionary theory, as it is not believable that every horse precursor existed in a straight line of descent with no divergence whatsoever.

Third, their statement that early horses have been preserved in the same strata as later horses is probably true.  However, that does not negate evolutionary theory, as there is no reason to conclude that all members of early horse species had died out by the time that later ones had evolved.  In fact, drawing that conclusion is more than a little absurd; it is the equivalent of arguing that a person's family tree consists of a straight line rather than a tree with many, many branches.  It would not be reasonable to claim that your cousins could not be related to you simply because you and they lived during the same time, and so it is not reasonable to claim that horse precursors could not have lived at the same time as other horse precursors which preceded them.

Fourth, they make the standard argument about "transitional forms", specifically with horse teeth (and whether they ate leaves or grass).  However, they give no reason to conclude that these different teeth must have been designed, instead limiting themselves to pointing out that there do not seem to be transitional forms between the two.  But why does there need to have been?  There is no reason to conclude that horses transitioned from eating leaves to eating grass; both of these different teeth could have easily diverged from an earlier, more generalized tooth.  All it would have taken then is for the grass-eating horses to have done better than the leaf-eating ones, causing the leaf-eating ones to slowly die out.

Therefore, their conclusion (that these horse ancestors were completely unrelated animals and that there was therefore no horse evolution) is very poorly supported and does not supplant evolutionary theory despite their efforts to claim otherwise.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #342 on: August 02, 2014, 04:45:22 AM »
Skep, I wasn't joking when I asked where the transition between you and your father is, because this is what you appear to be asking for with respect to the evolution of the horse.

Can you state unambiguously in your own words what it is that you fail to agree with with respect to horse evolution?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #343 on: August 02, 2014, 06:19:55 AM »
We both believe in something that has not been 100% proven, but we each feel our side is about 90% sure.

I am interested to know some of the 10% of the reasons why you think you could be wrong. Can you give a list at least?

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #344 on: August 02, 2014, 10:49:30 AM »
Why do you need to know everything in order to comprehend the Theory of Evolution yet you fully accept the existence of “God” without knowing everything?

I do not feel that is a valid question.

Suppose I turned it around:

Why do you need to know everything about God in order to comprehend God, yet you fully accept the theory of evolution without knowing everything?

You wouldn't think that's a fair question, so likewise, I don't think yours is fair either.

We both believe in something that has not been 100% proven, but we each feel our side is about 90% sure.

Yet you had to ignore what I said before posing that question in order for you to turn it around.

Why do you insist on continuing to trot out expectations for a misconception of the Theory of Evolution?

Fossils do not show rapid change, they only show the state a species was at when it was fossilized.  What you are asking for is fossil remains of every individual life form that has ever existed which would be nothing more than an argument from incredulity and ignorance. 

You have indeed asked to know everything.  When have I ever asked to know everything regarding "God"?  You know I haven't and are ignoring that you have.  You don't think the question is fair because you don't like the consequences of what it implicates.

I'm not asking you to accept the ToE, only to comprehend what it actually is.

EDIT:  Additionally, you're not asking me to comprehend "God", you're asking me to accept "God".  I can comprehend many concepts or "theory's" of "God".
« Last Edit: August 02, 2014, 11:36:12 AM by SevenPatch »
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Offline Jag

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #345 on: August 02, 2014, 01:51:33 PM »
In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

Considering that I am not an expert on evolution, I think it is fair to consult the people who are experts. So, I looked up horse evolution from evolutionists point of view. Then to remain unbiased, I looked up what the creationists had to say about it.

It would be biased if I just took the evolutionist's word for it.


What's the point of quoting my post if your going to ignore what I said? Address my post directly please. Explain what you think the problem is.

FTR, I don't think screwtape was kidding - do you?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #346 on: August 02, 2014, 07:22:05 PM »
In what way? Have you made enough sense of your assignment to educate yourself about evolution that you believe you are ready to make such a claim? If so, demonstrate it rather than just posting a link and saying "nuh-uh".

Considering that I am not an expert on evolution, I think it is fair to consult the people who are experts. So, I looked up horse evolution from evolutionists point of view. Then to remain unbiased, I looked up what the creationists had to say about it.

It would be biased if I just took the evolutionist's word for it.
But you chose to source the creationist opinion,why?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #347 on: August 02, 2014, 07:26:08 PM »
Why do you need to know everything in order to comprehend the Theory of Evolution yet you fully accept the existence of “God” without knowing everything?

I do not feel that is a valid question.

Suppose I turned it around:

Why do you need to know everything about God in order to comprehend God, yet you fully accept the theory of evolution without knowing everything?

You wouldn't think that's a fair question, so likewise, I don't think yours is fair either.

We both believe in something that has not been 100% proven, but we each feel our side is about 90% sure.
a certain percentage of evidence(how much I don't know) versus 0% evidence.... pretty easy to look to the side(evolution) and see the direction it is going......on the other side guys like Ken Hamm....who lie and deflect....why do you choose to be blind?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)