Author Topic: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...  (Read 8440 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2014, 09:18:49 AM »
Catholics are not Christians no matter what anyone says. I'm sure a lot of the Catholics mean well, but the Church itself is not Christian. They don't even encourage the people to read the Bible. How is that Christian? Sounds like what demons would say, "Oh you don't need that book! Listen to us!"

Kinda like what you say to people regarding scientific books. I think I'm beginning to see a pattern here...
Regardless, you said that people with an agenda cannot be trusted. Christians have an agenda. Politicians are largely christian. Politicians cannot be trusted. Some politicians are creationists. Creationists have an agenda. Creationists cannot be trusted. You cannot be trusted.
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« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 10:00:54 AM by One Above All »
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Offline Boots

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2014, 09:27:37 AM »
They got smaller? That means they are still crocs. They didn't "branch off" into birds or insects. They stayed crocs over supposedly millions of years. yet, we are told "things constantly change" and "you can't stop evolution."

Skep, you still don't get this:  NO ORGANISM on this planet has ever given birth/created proginy to another organism of a different species.  THIS IS HOW EVOLUTION WORKS
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2014, 09:30:23 AM »
Skeptic,

You were put on post approval originally for making wild-ass claims and not supporting them. You were taken of post approval for good behavior.  You are unfortunately slipping back into old habits. 

You will support every statement you make in this thread, retract the ones you cannot support, or you will go back on post approval.  Start with this one:

The Dark Ages is actually an atheistic myth. If you look up the actual history, you can clearly see that scientific progress was made. But, there's a lot of atheistic propaganda going around today that says it was a horrible time when it really wasn't.

Then this one:
The treatment of Galileo has been exaggerated by atheists though. Even if I grant that Galileo was treated terribly, you can hardly use the Catholic Church as an example of how Christians should behave.

Then, especially this one:
No, there is a lots of evidence for creationism but the secular scientists have to ignore it or else they lose their jobs. Scientists work for the government and as we all know, the government is corrupt. You really trust people who have a built-in agenda? I never would.

Every word of it.

After that, you can work on your bigotry in this post:

Catholics are not Christians no matter what anyone says. I'm sure a lot of the Catholics mean well, but the Church itself is not Christian. They don't even encourage the people to read the Bible. How is that Christian? Sounds like what demons would say, "Oh you don't need that book! Listen to us!"

I expect you to explain and support all of it, retract it, or you are going back on approval status.  I advise you not make any more claims you will need to support before clearing these up.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2014, 09:58:25 AM »
^^^Thank you.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2014, 11:32:13 AM »
Skeptic,

You were put on post approval originally for making wild-ass claims and not supporting them. You were taken of post approval for good behavior.  You are unfortunately slipping back into old habits. 

You will support every statement you make in this thread, retract the ones you cannot support, or you will go back on post approval.  Start with this one:

The Dark Ages is actually an atheistic myth. If you look up the actual history, you can clearly see that scientific progress was made. But, there's a lot of atheistic propaganda going around today that says it was a horrible time when it really wasn't.

Then this one:
The treatment of Galileo has been exaggerated by atheists though. Even if I grant that Galileo was treated terribly, you can hardly use the Catholic Church as an example of how Christians should behave.

Then, especially this one:
No, there is a lots of evidence for creationism but the secular scientists have to ignore it or else they lose their jobs. Scientists work for the government and as we all know, the government is corrupt. You really trust people who have a built-in agenda? I never would.

Every word of it.

After that, you can work on your bigotry in this post:

Catholics are not Christians no matter what anyone says. I'm sure a lot of the Catholics mean well, but the Church itself is not Christian. They don't even encourage the people to read the Bible. How is that Christian? Sounds like what demons would say, "Oh you don't need that book! Listen to us!"

I expect you to explain and support all of it, retract it, or you are going back on approval status.  I advise you not make any more claims you will need to support before clearing these up.

You are absolutely right. I apologize. My evidence for creation comes from trueorigin.org

They have a whole archive written by scientists who refute the evidence for evolution and show evidence for the young Earth.

The stuff about Galileo and the Dark Ages I was told by various historians who study this stuff for a living that his treatment has been exaggerated over the years. You are right I can not prove this.

And my post about Catholics is just how we Christians feel when we read the Bible. Nothing the Catholic Church practices is in the Bible. That's why we saw they are not Christians.

I will be more careful in the future. Sometimes I get carried away with my posts and just keep on typing. I will make an effort to make better efforts. Thank you.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2014, 11:55:32 AM »
Skep, you still don't get this:  NO ORGANISM on this planet has ever given birth/created proginy to another organism of a different species.  THIS IS HOW EVOLUTION WORKS

Well, then you can see how strange it sounds to us creationists, right? Start with simple bacteria/protozoa/amoebas. Then somehow we get insects, mammals, fish, and reptiles from that????

You can see how at some point, the bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would have to have given birth to a different species at some point. Otherwise, only bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would exist right now....
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2014, 12:02:11 PM »
Well, then you can see how strange it sounds to us creationists, right? Start with simple bacteria/protozoa/amoebas. Then somehow we get insects, mammals, fish, and reptiles from that????

You can see how at some point, the bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would have to have given birth to a different species at some point. Otherwise, only bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would exist right now....

The thing is that minor changes here and there, after a very long time (from our limited perspective) make beings end up completely different than when they started out. Imagine a Mercedes. It's a car. However, you're not happy with it. You start tinkering. Maybe take out the wheels and replace them with wheels from another brand. Then you put in a slightly bigger and more powerful engine. With that added horsepower, you can put in a more durable chassis, so why not? Then you decide to put in an even heavier chassis, but forget to upgrade the engine. That's OK; the car won't break down, it will just be a little slower. You get to it when you have the time. You finally replace the engine with a better one, but that engine is too powerful for the weight of your car. Upgrade chassis again. Wait, the wheels are beginning to bend under the car's enormous weight. Gotta replace them too, maybe with something from an RV.
Keep doing this long enough, and you end up with an RV instead of a car. Yes, they are still vehicles. However, all life forms are life forms. This is where I assume you'd think my analogy would fail.
If you don't like this analogy, think of the first vehicle. It was something powered by animal traction. Now we have space shuttles that look nothing like those first vehicles, but still evolved from it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2014, 12:40:25 PM »
In fairness to skeptic, Galileo's bad treatment was at least in part because of his...intemperance, for lack of a better term.   His book,  Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, put forward the geocentric argument through a character he named Simplicio, which is very close to the Italian word for simpleton.  Since the Pope was advocating these arguments, it looked like he was insulting the Pope, who (along with the Jesuits) was on his side until this happened.  And even then, simply putting him under house arrest for most of his life was very lenient, not to mention that most of the excesses were done under the Spanish Inquisition.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2014, 12:50:35 PM »
I wonder, does Skep also object to this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolutionary_computation
Quote
The use of Darwinian principles for automated problem solving originated in the 1950s. It was not until the 1960s that three distinct interpretations of this idea started to be developed in three different places. ...
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Offline Boots

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #38 on: June 20, 2014, 12:52:25 PM »
Skep, you still don't get this:  NO ORGANISM on this planet has ever given birth/created proginy to another organism of a different species.  THIS IS HOW EVOLUTION WORKS

Well, then you can see how strange it sounds to us creationists, right?

yes.  Because you don't understand it.
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #39 on: June 20, 2014, 12:57:51 PM »
Well, then you can see how strange it sounds to us creationists, right? Start with simple bacteria/protozoa/amoebas. Then somehow we get insects, mammals, fish, and reptiles from that????

You can see how at some point, the bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would have to have given birth to a different species at some point. Otherwise, only bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would exist right now....
It took 2.6 billion years to get from the earliest single-celled life to multicellular life, at least according to our current understanding.  It's difficult to really explain just how long a period of time that is, especially when you consider how fast single-celled generations go by.  Once you get past that roadblock (because you need multicellular life before you can have complex animals such as humans), the rest is relatively straightforward and takes much less time.  It took only 400 million years to go from the first multicellular life to simple animals.

The point is, all those gradual changes add up over time.  I can't emphasize this enough.

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #40 on: June 20, 2014, 02:16:20 PM »
Nothing the Catholic Church practices is in the Bible. That's why we saw they are not Christians.

Do you believe Jesus Christ is your lord and savior? Are you circumcised?  Do you take communion? Do you believe in baptism? Do you believe in heaven and hell? 

Septic telling me I'm wrong in 3.... 2.... 1....
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 04:10:22 PM by Backspace »
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #41 on: June 20, 2014, 03:50:25 PM »
Skeptic; how do you account for the Gaia satellite measuring the Universe to be at least 24,000 years old simply using trigonometry alone? My Christian friends tell me that 'trigonometry is wrong' but they can't seem to be able to explain this to me, they just stop debating. I'd like to hear your views on this.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #42 on: June 20, 2014, 05:04:24 PM »
No agenda at all. I just go where the evidence leads me. I feel it's more compelling for creationism than evolutionism. Most people who learn about evolution at school/college do not learn to criticize it and find the flaws/holes in it! They just parrot what the teacher says and they smile and nod and think they know everything when they haven't even seen the other side of the argument.

Taking hypocrisy to a new level I see.

Most people who learn about evolution at school and college actually learn what it says instead of being brainwashed by bullshit propaganda from creationists which you Skeptic and others like you then parrot and think you’re smart intellectuals challenging some kind of dogma.

This would be hysterically funny if it weren’t sad that it is having a detrimental effect on the U.S. (educationally and economically).
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 05:10:53 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #43 on: June 20, 2014, 05:59:05 PM »
Skeptic; how do you account for the Gaia satellite measuring the Universe to be at least 24,000 years old simply using trigonometry alone? My Christian friends tell me that 'trigonometry is wrong' but they can't seem to be able to explain this to me, they just stop debating. I'd like to hear your views on this.

I am not sure how that works. But suppose you are right and the universe is 24,000 years old according to trigonometry. Wouldn't that be closer to our model than the evolutionary model? Why doesn't the math show billions of years? How does the math even show what you're saying? Very curious.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2014, 06:01:19 PM »
Well, then you can see how strange it sounds to us creationists, right? Start with simple bacteria/protozoa/amoebas. Then somehow we get insects, mammals, fish, and reptiles from that????

You can see how at some point, the bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would have to have given birth to a different species at some point. Otherwise, only bacteria/protozoa/amoeba would exist right now....
It took 2.6 billion years to get from the earliest single-celled life to multicellular life, at least according to our current understanding.  It's difficult to really explain just how long a period of time that is, especially when you consider how fast single-celled generations go by.  Once you get past that roadblock (because you need multicellular life before you can have complex animals such as humans), the rest is relatively straightforward and takes much less time.  It took only 400 million years to go from the first multicellular life to simple animals.

The point is, all those gradual changes add up over time.  I can't emphasize this enough.

I have heard some scientists say that even they are skeptical that 400 million years could lead to the diversity we see today. Isn't that when some guy made up "punctuated equilibrium" and claimed evolution sometimes happens extremely fast?

Any evidence of this or is it just a wild thought?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline One Above All

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #45 on: June 20, 2014, 06:14:30 PM »
No agenda at all. I just go where the evidence leads me. I feel it's more compelling for creationism than evolutionism. Most people who learn about evolution at school/college do not learn to criticize it and find the flaws/holes in it! They just parrot what the teacher says and they smile and nod and think they know everything when they haven't even seen the other side of the argument.

Wrong.
84.3% of my the people in country are some sort of christian.
When I was taught Lamarckian evolution alongside Darwinian evolution[1], so that we could compare the two, I told my teacher that Lamarck seemed to have a point. In fact, I said that using a trait more often would result in it being more developed, like a muscle becoming stronger because you use it more often. She explained that using doesn't necessarily change the DNA, and it is the DNA that has the information that will be passed on. I agreed, but added that, removing traits from a group of members of a certain species, then allowing them to breed, would effectively remove sexual selection based on those traits, assuming, of course, that the creatures didn't simply die due to their lack of, say, legs. I can't recall what she said at this point, though. My point is that children can and do question things they are taught.
You know what else I questioned (before it was explained to me)? Integrals. And we're not talking about physical sciences anymore; this is math, where things can be proven. I saw no logical reason why calculating an antiderivative would allow us to calculate what an integral is used to calculate. Then there's the fact that the three fundamental forces are still being referred to as "four" fundamental forces. I spoke to my Mechanics teacher about this. The discovery was not all that recent, IMO. I argued that, if we were going to be conservative, we might as well go back to five fundamental forces and be done with it. Then there's the fact she told us there were only three states of matter. I approached her at the end of the class and asked her about plasma, Bose-Einstein condensates, and a third state that had been confirmed a few months before I asked her about it. Rigid bodies was another thing. And this entire paragraph was, at the most, two years ago, when I started college.
Don't assume that, just because you don't question what you are taught (creationism), others don't either.
 1. At this time, I was already an atheist.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #46 on: June 20, 2014, 06:15:02 PM »
Skep, you don't even believe that 400 million years existed.  You might want to start with that topic, before arguing about what might have happened during that time.

What is the evidence for a 6k year old universe?
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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #47 on: June 20, 2014, 06:47:16 PM »
I have heard some scientists say that even they are skeptical that 400 million years could lead to the diversity we see today. Isn't that when some guy made up "punctuated equilibrium" and claimed evolution sometimes happens extremely fast?
It's actually around a billion years, all in all, from the evolution of the first multicellular life to today.  400 million years is only the time from the first multicellular life to the simplest animals.

Punctuated equilibrium is not an ad hoc rescue attempt; it's an attempt to explain why we sometimes see much more diversity in the fossil record than expected, and sometimes less.  Essentially (and very simply), it states that organisms will tend to deviate towards the norm for their species, provided their overall populations are large and stable enough.  It fits in with what we know of genetic drift, for example; if a population drops below a certain point (such as by being separated by geographical barriers), genetic drift will set in among both (or all) populations, and they will start to lose some of their genetic variation - but exactly what they lose will differ depending on the populations.  On top of that, the individuals in each population will still tend to deviate towards the new norm for that population, and if the separation persists long enough, the separate populations will be diverged too far to reproduce, even though individuals within the separate populations will still be able to reproduce with each other.

In that case, you wouldn't need very long at all for them to diverge into separate but related species.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Any evidence of this or is it just a wild thought?
I'm pretty sure that the observed frequency of changes in the fossil record stands as evidence supporting this theory.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #48 on: June 21, 2014, 01:25:44 AM »
I have heard some scientists say that even they are skeptical that 400 million years could lead to the diversity we see today. Isn't that when some guy made up "punctuated equilibrium" and claimed evolution sometimes happens extremely fast?
It's actually around a billion years, all in all, from the evolution of the first multicellular life to today.  400 million years is only the time from the first multicellular life to the simplest animals.

Punctuated equilibrium is not an ad hoc rescue attempt; it's an attempt to explain why we sometimes see much more diversity in the fossil record than expected, and sometimes less.
Essentially (and very simply), it states that organisms will tend to deviate towards the norm for their species, provided their overall populations are large and stable enough.  It fits in with what we know of genetic drift, for example; if a population drops below a certain point (such as by being separated by geographical barriers), genetic drift will set in among both (or all) populations, and they will start to lose some of their genetic variation - but exactly what they lose will differ depending on the populations.  On top of that, the individuals in each population will still tend to deviate towards the new norm for that population, and if the separation persists long enough, the separate populations will be diverged too far to reproduce, even though individuals within the separate populations will still be able to reproduce with each other.

Couldn't another explanation also be that the fossils of the animals in the flood got buried at random so of course there will be spurts of different species here and different species there?
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Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #49 on: June 21, 2014, 03:22:07 AM »
Skeptic; how do you account for the Gaia satellite measuring the Universe to be at least 24,000 years old simply using trigonometry alone? My Christian friends tell me that 'trigonometry is wrong' but they can't seem to be able to explain this to me, they just stop debating. I'd like to hear your views on this.

I am not sure how that works. But suppose you are right and the universe is 24,000 years old according to trigonometry. Wouldn't that be closer to our model than the evolutionary model? Why doesn't the math show billions of years? How does the math even show what you're saying? Very curious.

Hi Skeptic, thanks for replying. Star distance is calculated in several different ways according to their distance, each method calibrated by another, in much the same way as a micrometer is used for measuring thousands of an inch, a ruler for inches and tape measure for feet and metres. The micrometre can calibrate the ruler to ensure it is accurate, then the ruler can calibrate the tape measure.

Until November last year near stars (up to 10,000 light years away) were directly measured by trigonometry. This involved basically measuring the angle between the star and the sun, then six months later (when Earth was on the opposite side of the Sun) measuring the angle again. This enables a giant triangle to be drawn, and when we have two angles of a triangle we then know the third (2 angles minus 180 degrees gives the third angle). We know one length of the triangle (distance from Earth to the Sun x2) then using basic trigonometry we can find the lengths of the other sides. This gives us the distance to the star, we know that light travels at a fixed speed in a vacuum which tells us how long the light has been travelling. This isn't the age of the star, just the time it has taken the light to arrive. The Gaia satellite swings out further than Earth orbit to give us greater ability to measure further stars. It can calculate stars up to 30,000 light years away with a minimum accuracy of 24,000 light years.

To use the Bible as a science book to determine the age of the Earth, Bishop Ussher counted up all the ages of the characters in the stories to arrive at an Earth creation date of 4004BC. For the Bible to be used as an instrument to date the Universe, a creationist can only use this date; 4004BC. If hard concrete evidence of the Earth existing in 4005BC was found, then this shows the Bible cannot be used for dating.

A directly measured star age of at least 24,000 years proves that the bible cannot be used for dating the Universe.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #50 on: June 21, 2014, 03:35:12 AM »
I have heard some scientists say that even they are skeptical that 400 million years could lead to the diversity we see today. Isn't that when some guy made up "punctuated equilibrium" and claimed evolution sometimes happens extremely fast?
It's actually around a billion years, all in all, from the evolution of the first multicellular life to today.  400 million years is only the time from the first multicellular life to the simplest animals.

Punctuated equilibrium is not an ad hoc rescue attempt; it's an attempt to explain why we sometimes see much more diversity in the fossil record than expected, and sometimes less.
Essentially (and very simply), it states that organisms will tend to deviate towards the norm for their species, provided their overall populations are large and stable enough.  It fits in with what we know of genetic drift, for example; if a population drops below a certain point (such as by being separated by geographical barriers), genetic drift will set in among both (or all) populations, and they will start to lose some of their genetic variation - but exactly what they lose will differ depending on the populations.  On top of that, the individuals in each population will still tend to deviate towards the new norm for that population, and if the separation persists long enough, the separate populations will be diverged too far to reproduce, even though individuals within the separate populations will still be able to reproduce with each other.

Couldn't another explanation also be that the fossils of the animals in the flood got buried at random so of course there will be spurts of different species here and different species there?

This has never been found. Animals have only been found in the age related layers of sediment they lived in; 'Evolution would be destroyed by rabbits in the Precambrian' - J.B.S. Haldane

I live in Dunbar, East Scotland where John Muir (he of US national parks fame) was born. Our coast line literally teems with fossils of ancient sea creatures. Our coast was laid down about 320 million years ago, as the millions of sea creatures died and settled on the sea floor, they were covered by sediment and eventually time and pressure formed them into sedimentary rock. I took my creationist family members along there a few months ago and my kids spent the afternoon digging out sea creature fossils. When I explained that the coast was 320 million years old, they said 'Ah, but Noah's Flood did this!". Really? Where are the giraffe fossils? Or the bears? Or the mice? Or the sea mammals?! There are none, only sea creatures as mammals did not exist when this rock was laid.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #51 on: June 21, 2014, 07:08:59 AM »
Couldn't another explanation also be that the fossils of the animals in the flood got buried at random so of course there will be spurts of different species here and different species there?
There's too many problems with the flood for it to be a viable explanation.  For starters, floods leave telltale signs of their passing, but we have no indications that a worldwide flood happened (lots of small local floods at different places, often regularly, but not a giant one that affected everything at once).  Second, the amount of water necessary to flood the whole world to that degree would be an incredibly destructive force, one which would leave signs everywhere, and all at the same geological time (which would be very recent).  4,000 years wouldn't even begin to be enough time for natural processes to cover that all up and make it look the way it actually looks today.  Third, a massive flood is not going to cause a random process of burial, because it is not particularly random to begin with.  And fourth, there is no way that a single flood event, no matter how massive, would cause things which all died in it to be buried in the kind of layers we see in the fossil record, not to mention that there wouldn't be time for fossils to form that quickly, and the sea creatures (which would largely not be affected by such a flood) would not simply ignore the feast of dead land animals long enough for the remains to have a chance to naturally decompose.

Offline jetson

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #52 on: June 21, 2014, 10:21:16 AM »
skep,

You have displayed a serious amount of willful ignorance on the topic of the theory of evolution. Now, given that ignorance is not a bad thing, are you in any way, no matter how small, open to the idea that you have been fooled into your thinking by blind faith through your personal religious beliefs? To put it another way, every person who has tried to explain where your ignorance lies, is probably willing to abandon the theory of evolution if it is ever falsified by legitimate science, including myself. I have no desire to cling to a scientific theory that has clearly been debunked or falsified using science.

Actually, you are in a better position from a certain perspective. It remains possible that a god triggered everything, exactly the way science has broken it down so far. I don't think that is likely at all, but it is possible that some entity (a god, perhaps) kicked off the life on this planet with the intent of allowing it to evolve naturally just as we see it doing. So, you could theoretically accept evolution as it is currently stated, and still believe your god was the brains behind it all.

All of the material and ideas you seem to be using for debunking the ToE are completely untenable in the realm of science. If there were any claims to falsification that had true merit, they would be in scientific journals, peer reviewed, and would allow any interested scientist the opportunity to repeat the tests and confirm for themselves. This has NEVER happened on a meaningful scale across the major theory.

A final question, what value is there in clinging to your position as it is today? What do you hope to accomplish by doing what is effectively the same thing as denying that the earth is round?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #53 on: June 21, 2014, 11:08:39 AM »
I have heard some scientists say that even they are skeptical that 400 million years could lead to the diversity we see today. Isn't that when some guy made up "punctuated equilibrium" and claimed evolution sometimes happens extremely fast?
It's actually around a billion years, all in all, from the evolution of the first multicellular life to today.  400 million years is only the time from the first multicellular life to the simplest animals.

Punctuated equilibrium is not an ad hoc rescue attempt; it's an attempt to explain why we sometimes see much more diversity in the fossil record than expected, and sometimes less.
Essentially (and very simply), it states that organisms will tend to deviate towards the norm for their species, provided their overall populations are large and stable enough.  It fits in with what we know of genetic drift, for example; if a population drops below a certain point (such as by being separated by geographical barriers), genetic drift will set in among both (or all) populations, and they will start to lose some of their genetic variation - but exactly what they lose will differ depending on the populations.  On top of that, the individuals in each population will still tend to deviate towards the new norm for that population, and if the separation persists long enough, the separate populations will be diverged too far to reproduce, even though individuals within the separate populations will still be able to reproduce with each other.

Couldn't another explanation also be that the fossils of the animals in the flood got buried at random so of course there will be spurts of different species here and different species there?

This has never been found. Animals have only been found in the age related layers of sediment they lived in; 'Evolution would be destroyed by rabbits in the Precambrian' - J.B.S. Haldane

I live in Dunbar, East Scotland where John Muir (he of US national parks fame) was born. Our coast line literally teems with fossils of ancient sea creatures. Our coast was laid down about 320 million years ago, as the millions of sea creatures died and settled on the sea floor, they were covered by sediment and eventually time and pressure formed them into sedimentary rock. I took my creationist family members along there a few months ago and my kids spent the afternoon digging out sea creature fossils. When I explained that the coast was 320 million years old, they said 'Ah, but Noah's Flood did this!". Really? Where are the giraffe fossils? Or the bears? Or the mice? Or the sea mammals?! There are none, only sea creatures as mammals did not exist when this rock was laid.

But don't they date the fossils by the rocks and the rocks by the fossils? That would be entirely circular and would get us nowhere.

And I also heard that there is no geologic column anywhere on earth except in textbooks. For example, I could go in my backyard and find a fossil that is millions of years old. Does this mean my backyard is home to the geologic column?

Then there's the fact that in some places on Earth, you can find dino footprints in the rock. But, how can this be if the rock for dinosaurs is supposed to be buried way deep down in the Earth? It shouldn't be possible for dino footprints to be seen because all that rock should've been covered by new rock!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2014, 11:12:35 AM »
Skeptic; how do you account for the Gaia satellite measuring the Universe to be at least 24,000 years old simply using trigonometry alone? My Christian friends tell me that 'trigonometry is wrong' but they can't seem to be able to explain this to me, they just stop debating. I'd like to hear your views on this.

I am not sure how that works. But suppose you are right and the universe is 24,000 years old according to trigonometry. Wouldn't that be closer to our model than the evolutionary model? Why doesn't the math show billions of years? How does the math even show what you're saying? Very curious.

Hi Skeptic, thanks for replying. Star distance is calculated in several different ways according to their distance, each method calibrated by another, in much the same way as a micrometer is used for measuring thousands of an inch, a ruler for inches and tape measure for feet and metres. The micrometre can calibrate the ruler to ensure it is accurate, then the ruler can calibrate the tape measure.

Until November last year near stars (up to 10,000 light years away) were directly measured by trigonometry. This involved basically measuring the angle between the star and the sun, then six months later (when Earth was on the opposite side of the Sun) measuring the angle again. This enables a giant triangle to be drawn, and when we have two angles of a triangle we then know the third (2 angles minus 180 degrees gives the third angle). We know one length of the triangle (distance from Earth to the Sun x2) then using basic trigonometry we can find the lengths of the other sides. This gives us the distance to the star, we know that light travels at a fixed speed in a vacuum which tells us how long the light has been travelling. This isn't the age of the star, just the time it has taken the light to arrive. The Gaia satellite swings out further than Earth orbit to give us greater ability to measure further stars. It can calculate stars up to 30,000 light years away with a minimum accuracy of 24,000 light years.

To use the Bible as a science book to determine the age of the Earth, Bishop Ussher counted up all the ages of the characters in the stories to arrive at an Earth creation date of 4004BC. For the Bible to be used as an instrument to date the Universe, a creationist can only use this date; 4004BC. If hard concrete evidence of the Earth existing in 4005BC was found, then this shows the Bible cannot be used for dating.

A directly measured star age of at least 24,000 years proves that the bible cannot be used for dating the Universe.

Well, now that was interesting. But if God created the light in situ, wouldn't we see the same thing? It doesn't conclusively prove that God wasn't involved. Just like the example I always give of God creating Adam and Adam looked 25 years old even though he was mere seconds old.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2014, 11:49:36 AM »
But don't they date the fossils by the rocks and the rocks by the fossils? That would be entirely circular and would get us nowhere.

No, they originally date the rocks by Uranium-Lead radiometric dating of zircon crystals in volcanic ash layers within the sediments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uranium-lead_dating

When possible, Potassium-Argon dating is also used:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%E2%80%93Ar_dating

Doing so has allowed a coherent picture of geological history to be painted.  Some fossils indeed only occur with rocks that date with certain ages.  This has proven so reliable that the fossils themselves have become a useful shorthand for dating the rocks, as radiometric dating is relatively expensive.

The real question is, will you allow this new information to actually inform you?

And I also heard that there is no geologic column anywhere on earth except in textbooks. For example, I could go in my backyard and find a fossil that is millions of years old. Does this mean my backyard is home to the geologic column?

Well, you heard it, therefore it must be true.  I mean, you could never hear anything false, or anything that depends on false premises, could you?  Your ears are perfect, after all. /sarcasm

What column are you saying doesn't exist?  I doubt you can even answer that question; you just heard something and are parroting it here, without understanding what you're saying or even objecting to.

Then there's the fact that in some places on Earth, you can find dino footprints in the rock. But, how can this be if the rock for dinosaurs is supposed to be buried way deep down in the Earth? It shouldn't be possible for dino footprints to be seen because all that rock should've been covered by new rock!

It's called erosion.  I suspect that even you have heard of it.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2014, 11:53:05 AM »
Well, now that was interesting. But if God created the light in situ, wouldn't we see the same thing? It doesn't conclusively prove that God wasn't involved. Just like the example I always give of God creating Adam and Adam looked 25 years old even though he was mere seconds old.

If God created the universe in-situ, with everything going on as you remember it going on last Saturday, then you'd naturally think that the universe was much older than a week old.  But in reality, it would only be a week old.

Such a god would be very tricky, and deceitful.  Just like the god you're describing would be very tricky and deceitful.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Ron Jeremy

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Re: Please cross The Pond, please cross The Pond...
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2014, 06:45:26 PM »
As Azdgari pointed out, an all powerful god could of course have created everything 'ready to roll', but this would be a god of deceit, a god of falsehood. A god that would show us supernova, the explosion of stars, stars that had never existed. This would be the god of lies.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 06:47:02 PM by Ron Jeremy »
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.