Author Topic: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.  (Read 491 times)

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Offline epidemic

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God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« on: June 18, 2014, 09:01:18 AM »
If God has always existed, and is omnipotent and omnicient, what is the point of universe.  Why create a finite thing like the universe and why create man? 

If I put this in human terms, why would I open an empty box if I absolutely knew nothing was inside?

Why create a universe that I know everything about, every event that will happen, and that will end in a few trillion years?

Being omnipotent and omnicient really would take the fun out of existing.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2014, 09:13:18 AM »
Why watch the same film several times?

Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2014, 09:16:20 AM »
*Devil's advocate mode activated*

There's a difference between knowing and experiencing. Using your example, you may know that you'll be disappointed if you open the box (assuming you were looking for something), but experiencing that disappointment is something entirely different.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online jdawg70

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2014, 09:18:54 AM »
*Devil's advocate mode activated*

There's a difference between knowing and experiencing. Using your example, you may know that you'll be disappointed if you open the box (assuming you were looking for something), but experiencing that disappointment is something entirely different.

Would an omnipotent and omniscient entity be able to induce that qualia in themselves without bothering to open the box?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2014, 09:22:07 AM »
Would an omnipotent and omniscient entity be able to induce that qualia in themselves without bothering to open the box?

Of course, but what if it doesn't want to? Are you really going to argue against the will of an omnipotent and omniscient being?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Fiji

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2014, 09:26:48 AM »
Scott Adams makes the case that 'god' was an entity that steadily grew more powerful and knowledgeable... In the end, this god becomes omniscient with the exception of knowing what would happen if he himself didn't exist. God then kills himself, just to see what would happen. Hence the universe is god's debris.

As good an answer as any really.
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Online jdawg70

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2014, 09:38:05 AM »
Would an omnipotent and omniscient entity be able to induce that qualia in themselves without bothering to open the box?

Of course, but what if it doesn't want to? Are you really going to argue against the will of an omnipotent and omniscient being?

Yes.  Far be it from me to deny the omnipotent and omniscient being the experience of me arguing with it.  Wouldn't want to piss it off.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2014, 03:00:08 PM »
Yes.  Far be it from me to deny the omnipotent and omniscient being the experience of me arguing with it.  Wouldn't want to piss it off.

"Yes"? Or "No"?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Defiance

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2014, 03:07:49 PM »
Why would I do anything to an omnipotent anything, One? They don't exist. Don't need to do anything to them.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2014, 03:31:44 PM »
Why would I do anything to an omnipotent anything, One? They don't exist. Don't need to do anything to them.

?
Where is this coming from?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Online jdawg70

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2014, 04:03:17 PM »
Yes.  Far be it from me to deny the omnipotent and omniscient being the experience of me arguing with it.  Wouldn't want to piss it off.

"Yes"? Or "No"?

I suppose I could first ask the omnipotent and omniscient being what it wants (if it desires to experience arguing with me, if it desires to have the qualia of arguing with me without actually arguing with me, if it desires to experience an inferior creature trembling in fear at the idea of arguing with it, etc.)...

So...I dunno.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2014, 04:10:31 PM »
<snip>

I meant that I asked if you would challenge the will of an omnipotent and omniscient being, and you replied "Yes". Then you said something that implied (maybe even inferred) your answer was actually "No".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Jag

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2014, 07:02:38 PM »
Scott Adams makes the case that 'god' was an entity that steadily grew more powerful and knowledgeable... In the end, this god becomes omniscient with the exception of knowing what would happen if he himself didn't exist. God then kills himself, just to see what would happen. Hence the universe is god's debris.

As good an answer as any really.

"Dilbert" cartoonist (is that the right word?) Scott Adams?
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2014, 07:20:49 PM »
If God has always existed, and is omnipotent and omnicient, what is the point of universe.  Why create a finite thing like the universe and why create man?

This is actually an argument from incredulity: "I can't imagine creating a universe if I was infinite. Therefore, God wouldn't so there must be no God."

This has no bearing on the topic of whether or not God exists. 

If I put this in human terms, why would I open an empty box if I absolutely knew nothing was inside?

Why create a universe that I know everything about, every event that will happen, and that will end in a few trillion years?

Being omnipotent and omnicient really would take the fun out of existing.

This would be a question you will have to ask God when you appear before Him.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2014, 07:23:15 PM »
This is actually an argument from incredulity: "I can't imagine creating a universe if I was infinite. Therefore, God wouldn't so there must be no God."

This has no bearing on the topic of whether or not God exists. 

Good god, did skeptic54768 just properly name a fallacy to debunk an argument? IT'S THE FUCKING APOCALYPSE! EVERYBODY OUT OF THE UNIVERSE, NOW!!!
EDIT: I want to note that this is not meant as an insult. I am honestly surprised and glad that skeptic54768 was able to see a fallacy when either nobody else saw it, or nobody cared to point it out. Now, if only you could do the same with your own arguments, you'd be an atheist in no time. Either that or OldChurchGuy, only not so old (I think, although he's not that old either).
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 07:28:06 PM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Airyaman

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2014, 07:29:28 PM »
Not being eternal, omnipotent and omniscient, I feel less than qualified to answer this question.

I've personally never liked the various omnipotent and omniscient arguments, I think they are among the weaker ones.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2014, 07:32:05 PM »
This is actually an argument from incredulity: "I can't imagine creating a universe if I was infinite. Therefore, God wouldn't so there must be no God."

This has no bearing on the topic of whether or not God exists. 

Good god, did skeptic54768 just properly name a fallacy to debunk an argument? IT'S THE FUCKING APOCALYPSE! EVERYBODY OUT OF THE UNIVERSE, NOW!!!
EDIT: I want to note that this is not meant as an insult. I am honestly surprised and glad that skeptic54768 was able to see a fallacy when either nobody else saw it, or nobody cared to point it out. Now, if only you could do the same with your own arguments, you'd be an atheist in no time. Either that or OldChurchGuy, only not so old (I think, although he's not that old either).

I always point out the fallacies. This isn't the first time. Atheists engage in a lot of them with their arguments. The argument from evil alone is riddled with at least 2 fallacies just in the question.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Jag

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2014, 07:34:27 PM »
If God has always existed, and is omnipotent and omnicient, what is the point of universe.  Why create a finite thing like the universe and why create man?

This is actually an argument from incredulity: "I can't imagine creating a universe if I was infinite. Therefore, God wouldn't so there must be no God."

This has no bearing on the topic of whether or not God exists. 
Congratulations for recognizing it, looks like all your time here hasn't been a total waste. However...

It's the question he is asking. Whether it has any bearing on the existence of your god (as implied by the capitalization) is not really the point. This is obviously speculative, which I would expect a poster who chose the name "skeptic what-the-####-ever" to realize without needing it explained to him.

You could have chosen to see it as a legitimate question. It's one that could have been interesting if you were at all inclined to have an actual conversation.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Jag

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2014, 07:37:38 PM »
This is actually an argument from incredulity: "I can't imagine creating a universe if I was infinite. Therefore, God wouldn't so there must be no God."

This has no bearing on the topic of whether or not God exists. 

Good god, did skeptic54768 just properly name a fallacy to debunk an argument? IT'S THE FUCKING APOCALYPSE! EVERYBODY OUT OF THE UNIVERSE, NOW!!!
EDIT: I want to note that this is not meant as an insult. I am honestly surprised and glad that skeptic54768 was able to see a fallacy when either nobody else saw it, or nobody cared to point it out. Now, if only you could do the same with your own arguments, you'd be an atheist in no time. Either that or OldChurchGuy, only not so old (I think, although he's not that old either).

I always point out the fallacies. This isn't the first time. Atheists engage in a lot of them with their arguments. The argument from evil alone is riddled with at least 2 fallacies just in the question.

Says the guy who believes the Catholic Church is led by demons. Not particularly bad humans; ACTUAL DEMONS.

You presuppose far too much to try this gambit.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2014, 07:41:43 PM »
Says the guy who believes the Catholic Church is led by demons. Not particularly bad humans; ACTUAL DEMONS.

You presuppose far too much to try this gambit.

I know you don't believe in demons, but I do. It's easy to see the effects they have in the world if you know what to look for.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2014, 07:42:50 PM »
Says the guy who believes the Catholic Church is led by demons. Not particularly bad humans; ACTUAL DEMONS.

You presuppose far too much to try this gambit.

I know you don't believe in demons, but I do. It's easy to see the effects they have in the world if you know what to look for.
I can also see the effect of Cupid in the world. Obvious most on Vanetine's day.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Online One Above All

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2014, 07:45:26 PM »
I always point out the fallacies. This isn't the first time.

First time I recall seeing it, but that may be because I try to stay away from your posts.

Atheists engage in a lot of them with their arguments.

Not from my experience. At least not when debating religion. There's no need.

The argument from evil alone is riddled with at least 2 fallacies just in the question.

Really? Care to point them out to me? I won't argue against it; I'm just curious.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2014, 07:45:36 PM »
I can also see the effect of Cupid in the world. Obvious most on Vanetine's day.

People like Bernie Madoff and Jeffrey Dahmer wouldn't exist if not for following demons.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Airyaman

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2014, 07:45:57 PM »
I can also see the effect of Cupid in the world. Obvious most on Vanetine's day.
Fairies too. My closet fairies get much accomplished for me, though I wish they would do my dishes.
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline Airyaman

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2014, 07:47:30 PM »
I can also see the effect of Cupid in the world. Obvious most on Vanetine's day.

People like Bernie Madoff and Jeffrey Dahmer wouldn't exist if not for following demons.

Bad people doing bad things = demons.

I'm convinced. Anyone else (besides "skeptic")?
If you are following God why can I still see you?

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #25 on: June 18, 2014, 07:49:31 PM »
Really? Care to point them out to me? I won't argue against it; I'm just curious.

Argument from incredulity & appeal to consequences.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #26 on: June 18, 2014, 07:51:06 PM »
Bad people doing bad things = demons.

I'm convinced. Anyone else (besides "skeptic")?

Why don't you do bad things? (Hint: It's the voice of God inside you)
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Defiance

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #27 on: June 18, 2014, 07:53:20 PM »
Bad people doing bad things = demons.

I'm convinced. Anyone else (besides "skeptic")?

Why don't you do bad things? (Hint: It's the voice of God inside you)

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Prove that God exists. Why is that so hard to directly answer?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: God has always existed and is omnipotent and Omnicient.
« Reply #28 on: June 18, 2014, 07:56:55 PM »

Bull. Fucking. Shit.

Prove that God exists. Why is that so hard to directly answer?

I did that here:

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,26843.msg619117.html#msg619117

I saw you did not agree. Such a shame.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)