Author Topic: The origin of the Universe and atheism.  (Read 1949 times)

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Online Boots

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2014, 01:18:01 PM »
@Boots

The OP is The origin of the Universe and atheism. Why do you keep grabbing big strawman and mention Christian God?  Am I here to prove God in this thread?  Circular reasoning about what?

Is drive by shooting the best you can do?

this is my third reply on this thread, and none of them have done what you are describing here.  Could you quote the post(s) you're referring to?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2014, 01:26:59 PM »
There are other scientists that say otherwise - so your argument has problems.

http://www.universetoday.com/108870/why-hawking-is-wrong-about-black-holes/
I'm guessing you didn't actually read the article, because that's not what it says at all.  The scientist in question, Dr. Sabine Hossenfelder, showed that one of Hawking's recent proposals (that black holes don't have actual event horizons) was unnecessary because Hawking radiation doesn't need to be in a 'pure' state.  The point remains that Hawking radiation still appears to be causeless, as far as we can tell.

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If that is not your argument, all you gotta say is "I don't know", which is another problem for your argument if there is any.
This is both a strawman and a false dilemma.  You are presenting something as if it should be my argument and then addressing your arguments against it - classic strawman.  And now you are claiming that I either have to pick your strawman or else I don't know - classic false dilemma.  I can think of at least two additional explanations that do not require "something from nothing"; either the universe itself is eternal, or else it's temporally cyclical.  Note that those are just off the top of my head, and there are most likely more explanations that I haven't mentioned.

Some times people get their own words thrown back into their faces, then realize how ridiculous their arguments are. ^ ^
And the rest of the time, it gives the impression of being petty and immature, especially when your glib response ends up being wrong, as I showed above.  So you might want to rethink the effectiveness of this technique of yours.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #147 on: June 18, 2014, 01:34:15 PM »
See reply #133
As I've showed, #133 is not a particularly effective way to argue.  It requires you to be correct, which is not a given, and it also requires other people to recognize that you're correct, which is not guaranteed.

I've seen plenty of people resort to this tactic, and give the same justification you did.  Yet all it did was make them look petty and immature, as if they couldn't come up with something original and so mocked their opponent by copying their argument.  That holds even if the person happens to be right.  There are more effective ways to argue with someone than to try to turn their words against them.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #148 on: June 18, 2014, 01:41:30 PM »
This thread contains what I call The Underwear Gnomes School of Theistic Thought.

(1)Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on
(2) Shrug
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom Exists.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #149 on: June 18, 2014, 02:18:14 PM »
this is my third reply on this thread, and none of them have done what you are describing here.  Could you quote the post(s) you're referring to?
I really don't care about my negative karma (in fact, I am glad because I am trying to set a record here) but didn't you say "Circular reasoning = dishonest".

So circular reasoning for what?

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #150 on: June 18, 2014, 02:43:01 PM »
This thread contains what I call The Underwear Gnomes School of Theistic Thought.

(1)Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on
(2) Shrug
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom Exists.
A lot of times I find threads containing what I call The Underpants Gnomeo and Julieta of Atheistic Thought.
And it goes something like this.

(1) Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on (such as the big bang theory and it's relation with the origin of the universe.)
(2) Shrug and perceive that theory as "observable fact with mountains of evidence"
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom doesn't Exist.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #151 on: June 18, 2014, 02:46:01 PM »
There are more effective ways to argue with someone than to try to turn their words against them.
I will keep that in mind..but probably not in this thread.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #152 on: June 18, 2014, 02:51:32 PM »
This thread contains what I call The Underwear Gnomes School of Theistic Thought.

(1)Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on
(2) Shrug
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom Exists.
A lot of times I find threads containing what I call The Underpants Gnomeo and Julieta of Atheistic Thought.
And it goes something like this.

(1) Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on (such as the big bang theory and it's relation with the origin of the universe.)
(2) Shrug and perceive that theory as "observable fact with mountains of evidence"
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom doesn't Exist.
Alright. We reject a claim. You made the claim. Provide scientific evidence for it, then we'll see.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #153 on: June 18, 2014, 02:56:26 PM »
this is my third reply on this thread, and none of them have done what you are describing here.  Could you quote the post(s) you're referring to?
I really don't care about my negative karma (in fact, I am glad because I am trying to set a record here) but didn't you say "Circular reasoning = dishonest".

So circular reasoning for what?

I see--you're responding to my smite.  OK, the post of yours I smote said this:

Quote
I believe in God because of faith given by God.

We both know we don't decide what we want to believe, agree?

Therefore no dishonesty can be involved in faith in God.

Your first statement (that you believe in God because the God in question gave you faith) is circular.  Your claiming that "no dishonesty can be involved in faith" is untrue, since circular reasoning is a form of intellectual dishonesty.  that was the reason for the smite.

And this...

Quote
...Why do you keep grabbing big strawman and mention Christian God?...

is patently untrue, if you bother to read the thread.  You are mistaking me for someone else with that statement, because I never once mentioned any specific god in this thread.

Funny, though, how you mention/question me on the smite (which you claim not to care about), yet you did not mention the substantive post I made to reply to one of your statements (reply #29, 2nd page):

Quote from: Boots
Quote from: John 3 16
Maybe God wants to help us. (hint John 3:16) but he doesn't want to interfere with our free will.  After all who would want a "shotgun marriage"?

I *really* depsise this answer.  It seems to say that, if a diety actively helped someone in a non-ambiguous way, the helped individual would be somehow forced to love/obey/worship said diety.

Is an organ recipient forced to love the person who donated the organ?  Is a crime victim forced to love the cop who saved him/her from injury/death?

Where does anyone come off thinking that a non-abmiguous display would deprive anyone of free will??
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #154 on: June 18, 2014, 03:00:28 PM »
There are more effective ways to argue with someone than to try to turn their words against them.
I will keep that in mind..but probably not in this thread.

If you have no argument or can't (or maybe rather don't) understand/comprehend the statements or arguments being made, why are you here other than trolling to try and "set the limit for negative darwins"?

I suspect the answer is "that is the only reason".
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:32:31 PM by SevenPatch »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #155 on: June 18, 2014, 03:09:11 PM »
I will keep that in mind..but probably not in this thread.
Why not?  If a given approach is making you look silly/foolish and is accomplishing very little of what you want, what good will come of persisting in that approach if you can pick a different one that can produce better results?

Let's take your recent mockery of Hatter's "Underwear Gnomes" post, which I will respond to below

A lot of times I find threads containing what I call The Underpants Gnomeo and Julieta of Atheistic Thought.
And it goes something like this.
Given the fact that this is a slightly modified copy of Hatter's post, it suggests that there are actually no such posts and you are making this up to (try to) mock him.

Quote from: John 3 16
(1) Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on (such as the big bang theory and it's relation with the origin of the universe.)
(2) Shrug and perceive that theory as "observable fact with mountains of evidence"
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom doesn't Exist.
The problem with this argument is that, since it is a mockery of someone else's argument, it is unlikely that there is any actual basis for making it.  For example, the Big Bang doesn't explain the origin of the universe, it simply explains why the universe looks the way it does.  Since we have no way of looking further back in time than the Big Bang, anything that might have happened before it is undiscoverable, although we can certainly speculate on it.  The more congruous those speculations are to what we already know, the more likely they are to be true, but we can't be certain.

So no, it doesn't disprove the Christian god.  But neither does it prove that said god always existed, which is what you need to be able to do.  It is certainly possible that this Christian god of yours is an entity that came about after the Big Bang but before humans existed, and decided to take credit for everything existing, knowing that it would be a long time before humans had developed sufficiently to figure out otherwise.  It would explain the inconsistencies in the Bible far better than if some omni-anything being wrote it, for certain.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #156 on: June 18, 2014, 03:16:37 PM »
I will keep that in mind..but
Given the fact that this is a slightly modified copy of Hatter's post, it suggests that there are actually no such posts and you are making this up to (try to) mock him.

Quote from: John 3 16
(1) Find one thing that science is unclear or uncertain on (such as the big bang theory and it's relation with the origin of the universe.)
(2) Shrug and perceive that theory as "observable fact with mountains of evidence"
(3) Declare that the God of Christendom doesn't Exist.
The problem with this argument is that, since it is a mockery of someone else's argument, it is unlikely that there is any actual basis for making it.

There is no basis, as number two and three aren't true and he's lying.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 03:26:45 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #157 on: June 18, 2014, 03:21:46 PM »
So basically john is saying he has nothing to support his claims.  but he can mimic.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #158 on: June 18, 2014, 03:35:03 PM »
So basically john is saying he has nothing to support his claims.  but he can mimic.

Well Christians have to do something to distract from the fact there is nothing to separate their favored book of fables and mythology from any other fiction other than its popularity. They have to go with straw manning the atheist position, finding some aspect of science that doesn't have the answers, they have to spin philosophy using "alternate epistemologies" to define their Celestial Santa Claus into existence, they have to sneer down their nose and make appeals to pity, arguments from ignorance and nearly every logical fallacy under the sun....because they've got nothing else. It is just the same damn crap that doesn't work to distinguish what they are saying from completely made up fairy tales.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #159 on: June 18, 2014, 03:50:02 PM »
Quote
Could god not have made a universe where free will did not result in suffering?
If you are locked up in jail you can't commit a crime.

Is god locked up in jail?
Did god commit a crime? then he exists.  :)

don't dodge.

are you going to answer my question or what?
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #160 on: June 18, 2014, 03:51:54 PM »
I am more convinced by theists that just live out their faith and when pressed they state their faith did not come to them thru logic or reason but they believe, love and live their faith as best they can and will share it with whomever asks.


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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #161 on: June 18, 2014, 04:29:57 PM »
are you going to answer my question or what?
Sure.  didn't think you were serious.

Quote
Is god locked up in jail?

No.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #162 on: June 18, 2014, 08:39:53 PM »
Little late - work, you know.

Quote
Now, shall we turn the table and talk about the origin of the universe and atheism?

What do you say about the origin of the universe?

a)the big bang?
b)has always existed?
c)don't know?
Here are my answers John.
A. Maybe
B. Maybe
C. I don't know.

Are your answers the same? 

I think the high level of intolerance worldwide is dangerous as the world gets "smaller."  I don't think we say "I don't know" enough.  I find that theism, for many reasons, probably fear as a main reason, is particularly intolerant and can and has become much more dangerous than agnostic atheism.
Say we do an experiment:
             We, you and I, wearing "I am an atheist"  tee shirts, walk through the most Christian place we can think of.  Then we, you and I, wearing "I am an Christian"  tee shirts, walk through the most non-religious place we can think of. 
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #163 on: June 18, 2014, 08:41:15 PM »
Say we do an experiment:
             We, you and I, wearing "I am an atheist"  tee shirts, walk through the most Christian place we can think of.  Then we, you and I, wearing "I am an Christian"  tee shirts, walk through the most non-religious place we can think of. 

Better do that the other way around, or we won't get any data from the second part, since you'll be dead.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #164 on: June 18, 2014, 09:02:10 PM »
We, you and I, wearing "I am an atheist"  tee shirts, walk through the most Christian place we can think of.  Then we, you and I, wearing "I am an Christian"  tee shirts, walk through the most non-religious place we can think of.
Do you perceive there is a difference between atheist and non-religionist?
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #165 on: June 18, 2014, 11:09:41 PM »
John wearing a tee saying i am a christian and US citizen walks the streets of somewhere in afganistan or syria or iraq.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #166 on: June 18, 2014, 11:54:03 PM »
Certain type of atheism (strong atheism) asserts that there is no creator God, hence the universe was not created by the creator.

False dichotomy.  You're proposing that we're limited to the options of "Strong atheism" or "the universe was created by 'the' creator God."  We could just as easily posit that the Cosmos was created by a pantheon of creator Gods and Goddesses.  Or, that the Cosmos originated naturally as the Big Bang model describes, yet there are still Gods and Goddesses.  After all, it is self-evident that any deities that might exist are perfectly willing to sit by and watch the ebola virus take its natural course ravaging the body of a child, or a famine, or a plane crash, etc..  How can you know that such deities wouldn't also just sit by and watch a Big Bang take its natural course?

And yet, it is almost certain that you are a "strong atheist" in relation to all Gods and Goddesses, known and unknown, except for the one you like.

In order for them to assert/claim that, they would have to have objective and observable evidence for the origin of the universe

We do.  In the age of Google, it wouldn't be hard for you to figure out why people think the Cosmos emerged from a Big Bang rather than being sculpted out of clay by Jesus a few thousand years after the founding of Catal Huyuk.  So no, I won't do your homework for you.

otherwise I believe "strong atheism" is another type of ideology based on faith.

As I see it, "strong atheism" is pretty much the same sort of thing as "strong a-foursidedtriangleism."  "Atheism" means "without theism," i.e., "without belief in gods/goddesses."  It's in the same category as "a-leprechaunism" (no belief in leprechauns), etc..  We can agree on a-leprechaunism because we can agree on what a leprechaun is, and that they don't exist.

So what, exactly, is a "god" or "goddess?"  How could we tell one apart from a "powerful alien?"  IOW, the DS9 Conundrum.  In Star Trek: Deep Space Nine, the plot revolved around a wormhole that was inhabited by mysterious, powerful entities who were not bound by time.  The people of the nearby planet, Bajor, called them "the Prophets" and made them the objects of their religion.  The Federation officers crewing the space station Deep Space Nine called them "wormhole aliens," and did not worship them.  For them, encountering beings of inconceivable power was almost routine (Q, etc.).  Note that the two cultures did not disagree about the existence of the entities in the wormhole--they just slapped different labels on them.

So how can you define something as a deity?  One common technique is to dial its attributes up to omni-infinity.  One problem with this is that the omni's contradict one another.  For example, an omniscient being would know all of its own choices in advance; if it was also omnipotent, then it should also be able to change its mind and make some different decision.  Another problem is that, having dialed their god up to omni-infinity, the theist then has to construct intricate theological explanations to dial it back down to zero again, to explain why the existence of an infinitely large elephant in the room manifests no observable effects.  A third problem is that every argument the theist employs against strong atheism applies equally well against their own strong atheism--in relation to any god or goddess they don't like.

Furthermore, the sort of "creation theology" you're arguing here is also self-contradictory.  In order to posit the existence of "a sapient being" as the explanation for the Cosmos, the requirements for the existence of a sapient being must already be in place.  It must be possible for the being to exist, to have certain qualities and states ("sapience," "creativity," "ability to act and generate desired results").  The sapient being exists as a sapient being (rather than as a bowling ball or a rutabaga) and continues to exist as a sapient being without randomly turning into all sorts of other things.

In short: things (such as a sapient being) exist, and things work in a certain way (the sapient being is able to perceive, think, etc., and when it exerts its ability to create, things get created).  Which means: things exist, and there's physics.  But those are the very things you're calling upon your sapient being to explain!

Thus, "creation theism" of the sort your proposing is self-contradictory, and may be dismissed, leaving atheism as the last position standing.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #167 on: June 19, 2014, 03:00:01 AM »
I'll pick (c) - don't know - though I suspect the actual answer is (b)
So the final answer is (c) thank you.

Quote
Oh yes.  Done it many times - in fact, for every god I've considered, I've either found to my satisfaction that it has no existence, OR that while it may exist it is a god that I don't need to give a toss about.
Thank you for sharing your personal opinion but where is the proof for God's non existency?

Which god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #168 on: June 19, 2014, 03:17:58 AM »
I'd say our work here is done, unless J316 is going to be genuinely open minded about what possible God/s could have created the parts of the universe that we know about.

Given that the Hebrew God seemed to know nothing about how the universe was created, he starts from a disadvantage in claiming it was his own brainwash-El-God that created the universe.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #169 on: June 19, 2014, 07:08:27 AM »
are you going to answer my question or what?
Sure.  didn't think you were serious.

Quote
Is god locked up in jail?

No.

So then is god free to commit crime?

I take it you had been speaking of jail metaphorically.  I do not think that is really an apt analogy.  But rather than argue the analogy, I'll try to understand your point.  You were asked why "god [could] not have made a universe where free will did not result in suffering?"  Your answer alluded to the idea that committing crime was the equivalent of suffering and being locked up in jail was a loss of free will.  Please correct me if I misunderstood.   

My counter point is, if god can avoid suffering/ sin/ doing bad things and still has agency/ free will, then there it is possible to have a universe with free will and without suffering.  Your assertion is inconsistent with your own beliefs.  There should be nothing stopping god from making us the same way, except his own will. 

I've heard it argued that if god is not free to do Evil, then he is not truly omnipotent.  The xian reply is that god can do Evil, he just does not, because it is not in his nature.  Well, why were we - and the universe - not made with the same nature?


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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #170 on: June 19, 2014, 07:13:43 AM »
Lol every theist is some other theists atheist.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #171 on: June 19, 2014, 08:01:12 AM »
Do you perceive there is a difference between atheist and non-religionist?

I'm sure I don't (for the most part), but plenty of people do

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/12/its-okay-to-marry-a-republican-or-democrat-just-not-an-atheist/
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #172 on: June 19, 2014, 08:06:06 AM »
Might have missed it, has john accused atheism of being just another religion yet?
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #173 on: June 19, 2014, 09:52:18 AM »
And yet, it is almost certain that you are a "strong atheist" in relation to all Gods and Goddesses, known and unknown, except for the one you like.
Your statement is self-contradictory.  If one believes in at least one deity, by definition that person should not be labeled as "atheist".

e.g. I am a vegan except for my favorite food "steak".

Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.