Author Topic: The origin of the Universe and atheism.  (Read 2019 times)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #116 on: June 18, 2014, 11:08:29 AM »
Xians can't kill, unless they are in a gov uniform.

That's not what the scriptures teach.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #117 on: June 18, 2014, 11:09:17 AM »
None of the examples given require one to lie to save a life.

You are changing the terms of your original question. If you don't like where it is going, then re-ask another more appropriate one.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #118 on: June 18, 2014, 11:10:48 AM »
Xians can't kill, unless they are in a gov uniform.

That's not what the scriptures teach.

It sort of is. Pseudo-Paul says that the people in power are always agents of God. If you don't like that, then admit that Pseudo-Paul is an interpolation, or that Paul is wrong about stuff.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #119 on: June 18, 2014, 11:26:12 AM »
Xians can't kill, unless they are in a gov uniform.

That's not what the scriptures teach.

It sort of is. Pseudo-Paul says that the people in power are always agents of God. If you don't like that, then admit that Pseudo-Paul is an interpolation, or that Paul is wrong about stuff.

Paul's teaching are in harmony with the rest of scripture.  Obedience to civil authorities is only relative.  They are not allowed to overrule obedience to Jehovah.  Preaching about Christ was itself opposed by the Jewish authorities.  Paul did not comply.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #120 on: June 18, 2014, 11:27:49 AM »
Could you explain why the event 'something coming from nothing' is not 'cause and effect'?
The statement "something coming from nothing" omits the "cause" where there are effects everywhere.
Therefore it is unnatural and illogical claim.
Quote
But I confess that I cannot provide you with unambiguous and objective bulletproof evidence of exceptions to 'cause and effect' - closest I'd have would be the Casimir effect, but that would hardly constitute 'bulletproof'.  Other models and predictions involving virtual particles would be other examples, but again, those would hardly constitute 'bulletproof'.

Does this mean that god must have a cause then?
No but at the same time that doesn't prove the statement "something came from nothing".
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #121 on: June 18, 2014, 11:27:58 AM »
None of the examples given require one to lie to save a life.

You are changing the terms of your original question. If you don't like where it is going, then re-ask another more appropriate one.

No, I didn't.  I made an observation.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #122 on: June 18, 2014, 11:34:00 AM »
@Boots

The OP is The origin of the Universe and atheism. Why do you keep grabbing big strawman and mention Christian God?  Am I here to prove God in this thread?  Circular reasoning about what?

Is drive by shooting the best you can do?
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #123 on: June 18, 2014, 11:36:10 AM »
I think I do "honest" means "agrees with my credulous belief in a particular mythology" in the theists eyes, or basically, lying.
I think you don't, "honest" means "agrees with my credulous unbelief in God" in the atheists eyes, or basically , lying.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #124 on: June 18, 2014, 11:38:35 AM »
The statement "something coming from nothing" omits the "cause" where there are effects everywhere.
Therefore it is unnatural and illogical claim.
If we can show that there are things that are causeless - as Hawking radiation ultimately appears to be - then your argument has problems.

Quote from: John 3 16
No but at the same time that doesn't prove the statement "something came from nothing".
I don't think anyone here is actually arguing that something came from nothing, which is another problem for your argument.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #125 on: June 18, 2014, 11:40:43 AM »
Cause and effect is a concept to give theists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them.
Scientific evidence such as Cause and effect is a concept to give atheists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them until now.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #126 on: June 18, 2014, 11:43:11 AM »
I think I do "honest" means "agrees with my credulous belief in a particular mythology" in the theists eyes, or basically, lying.
I think you don't, "honest" means "agrees with my credulous unbelief in God" in the atheists eyes, or basically , lying.
I think pointless mimicry like this defeats the purpose of having a conversation.

Honesty means to be truthful about something.  But it doesn't mean the something is itself true.  A person can honestly believe a lie, for example.  That's why belief is worthless for determining whether something is true.

Offline screwtape

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #127 on: June 18, 2014, 11:43:44 AM »
Quote
Could god not have made a universe where free will did not result in suffering?
If you are locked up in jail you can't commit a crime.

Is god locked up in jail?
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #128 on: June 18, 2014, 11:45:33 AM »
Scientific evidence such as Cause and effect is a concept to give atheists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them until now.
Glib responses like this tend to cause more problems for you than they solve.

If the best response you can come up with is to throw someone's words back in their face, then perhaps you could try not responding?

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #129 on: June 18, 2014, 12:00:02 PM »
If we can show that there are things that are causeless - as Hawking radiation ultimately appears to be - then your argument has problems.
There are other scientists that say otherwise - so your argument has problems.

http://www.universetoday.com/108870/why-hawking-is-wrong-about-black-holes/

Quote
I don't think anyone here is actually arguing that something came from nothing, which is another problem for your argument.
If that is not your argument, all you gotta say is "I don't know", which is another problem for your argument if there is any.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #130 on: June 18, 2014, 12:03:46 PM »
There is no reason to believe cause and effect hold always, in fact they don't.


there is no reason to believe a god is a satisfactory explanation for things we don't yet know.

in blaming god for causing the universe is the most simple minded excuse for anything.


then of course you have the job of explaining which god.   oh lemme guess@you mean Allah.


God is just another word for ignorance and a longing for a big daddy in the sky to make all things you feel wronged about right.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #131 on: June 18, 2014, 12:04:17 PM »
@bertatberts.

If an atheist says it, it's a fact.

If a theist says the same thing, it is childish.  :angel:
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #132 on: June 18, 2014, 12:05:10 PM »
Cause and effect is a concept to give theists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them.
Scientific evidence such as Cause and effect is a concept to give atheists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them until now.
However, invisible magic beings who shag earthly women and who do magic things and who make unsubstantiated of promises of being alive after you are dead are very much the province of the religious.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #133 on: June 18, 2014, 12:10:43 PM »
If the best response you can come up with is to throw someone's words back in their face, then perhaps you could try not responding?
Some times people get their own words thrown back into their faces, then realize how ridiculous their arguments are. ^ ^
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #134 on: June 18, 2014, 12:17:51 PM »
Cause and effect is a concept to give theists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them.
Scientific evidence such as Cause and effect is a concept to give atheists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them until now.
However, invisible magic beings who shag earthly women and who do magic things and who make unsubstantiated of promises of being alive after you are dead are very much the province of the religious.
Perhaps I should report your post to you for strawman fallacy and off topic.
Is the OP about "Christian beliefs and mytholgies"?.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 12:20:31 PM by John 3 16 »
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #135 on: June 18, 2014, 12:24:14 PM »
Quote
Could god not have made a universe where free will did not result in suffering?
If you are locked up in jail you can't commit a crime.

Is god locked up in jail?
Did god commit a crime? then he exists.  :)
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #136 on: June 18, 2014, 12:27:25 PM »
Quote
Could god not have made a universe where free will did not result in suffering?
If you are locked up in jail you can't commit a crime.

Is god locked up in jail?
Did god commit a crime? then he exists.  :)

don't dodge. 
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #137 on: June 18, 2014, 12:28:00 PM »
@bertatberts.

If an atheist says it, it's a fact.

If a theist says the same thing, it is childish.  :angel:

non sequitur

If you want to challange a claim, then do so like an adult having a conversation would.  You are not childish because your viewpoint is different, you are childish because you are repeating what another person said word for word with the exception of inserting your viewpoint, which is exactly what a child would do when he or she has no argument to make.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #138 on: June 18, 2014, 12:34:25 PM »
@bertatberts.

If an atheist says it, it's a fact.

If a theist says the same thing, it is childish.  :angel:

non sequitur

If you want to challange a claim, then do so like an adult having a conversation would.  You are not childish because your viewpoint is different, you are childish because you are repeating what another person said word for word with the exception of inserting your viewpoint, which is exactly what a child would do when he or she has no argument to make.
See reply #133
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #139 on: June 18, 2014, 01:06:31 PM »
@bertatberts.

If an atheist says it, it's a fact.

If a theist says the same thing, it is childish.  :angel:
If you respond to a post with mimicry, then that is childish. And a total waste of space.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #140 on: June 18, 2014, 01:09:42 PM »
non sequitur

If you want to challange a claim, then do so like an adult having a conversation would.  You are not childish because your viewpoint is different, you are childish because you are repeating what another person said word for word with the exception of inserting your viewpoint, which is exactly what a child would do when he or she has no argument to make.
See reply #133

Okay I see, if you don't understand a statement or argument, you assume it is ridiculous and revert to childish behavior.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #141 on: June 18, 2014, 01:10:40 PM »
@bertatberts.

If an atheist says it, it's a fact.

If a theist says the same thing, it is childish.  :angel:
If you respond to a post with mimicry, then that is childish. And a total waste of space.
For the sake of saving cyberspace, see post #133.
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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #142 on: June 18, 2014, 01:15:43 PM »
It seems like the theistic positions are extremely dishonest.

The Theistic position is something like this.

Since we're not sure what created the universe, it must have been God.   We're pretty sure it's Yahweh, because we have this book called the Bible that's proven historically true!  There's all kinds of evidence?   What do you mean donkeys and snakes don't talk?  What do you mean there's no supporting evidence that Jesus was even alive, let alone performed miracles?  What do you mean that a street magician can pull off tricks that look exactly like Jesus tricks?

Well... since we don't know what created the universe, it had to be God because we have morals right?   Where'd our morality come from if not from God?

What do you mean that God ordered Moses to kill women and babies and take young virgin's prisoner and force them to be wives?   What do you mean God had rules on the price of a slave?   What do you mean that women are second class property even in the New Testament?

God answers all kinds of prayers, he promises he will in the book that we know is true...   What do you mean that any time the effect of prayer is scientifically tested, it fails to make any difference?

Well... um... this god who orders babies to be thrown off walls in the Old Testament and who showed up for Elijah's god test, and who showed up for Paul... he can't show up for scientific tests so he has to purposely let those people in the blind study die at the same rate.

God has to convince us that the earth isn't really 6,000 years old, and that prayer doesn't work, so we have the free will to believe in unbelievable garbage, even though it didn't affect Paul's free will to have a Damascus Road experience.

So... God is the source of all good but it was cool with him that Lot offered up his daughter's to be raped instead of God's angels who could just fly away.

THAT...  THAT is the Theistic position.

That is a theistic position.  There are other theistic positions that do not have those specific silly claims.  I think this reflects John 3 16's views, but exercise caution with the blanket statements.

You're right... I was responding to the point that he said Theistic positions were rational... and I didn't think he was talking about the Islamic position or reincarnation, but I should have clarified that better.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #143 on: June 18, 2014, 01:15:56 PM »
Okay I see
No you don't.

Reread post# 133.
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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #144 on: June 18, 2014, 01:17:25 PM »
Okay I see
No you don't.

Reread post# 133.

Yep, I do.  Perhaps you should reread reply #140?
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks