Author Topic: The origin of the Universe and atheism.  (Read 2007 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #87 on: June 18, 2014, 09:43:23 AM »
Like what?  Be specific.  For example, I brought up the CMBR as evidence for the Big Bang.  Since you're claiming that your god is the origin of the universe, you should have no problem pointing out the evidence that led you to that conclusion.
Pretty much everything you see in everyday life.  The sun, the moon, the earth, etc... not to mention "cause and effect".

That is about as unspecific as one can possibly get.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline YRM_DM

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #88 on: June 18, 2014, 09:49:48 AM »
It seems like the theistic positions are extremely dishonest.

The Theistic position is something like this.

Since we're not sure what created the universe, it must have been God.   We're pretty sure it's Yahweh, because we have this book called the Bible that's proven historically true!  There's all kinds of evidence?   What do you mean donkeys and snakes don't talk?  What do you mean there's no supporting evidence that Jesus was even alive, let alone performed miracles?  What do you mean that a street magician can pull off tricks that look exactly like Jesus tricks?

Well... since we don't know what created the universe, it had to be God because we have morals right?   Where'd our morality come from if not from God?

What do you mean that God ordered Moses to kill women and babies and take young virgin's prisoner and force them to be wives?   What do you mean God had rules on the price of a slave?   What do you mean that women are second class property even in the New Testament?

God answers all kinds of prayers, he promises he will in the book that we know is true...   What do you mean that any time the effect of prayer is scientifically tested, it fails to make any difference?

Well... um... this god who orders babies to be thrown off walls in the Old Testament and who showed up for Elijah's god test, and who showed up for Paul... he can't show up for scientific tests so he has to purposely let those people in the blind study die at the same rate.

God has to convince us that the earth isn't really 6,000 years old, and that prayer doesn't work, so we have the free will to believe in unbelievable garbage, even though it didn't affect Paul's free will to have a Damascus Road experience.

So... God is the source of all good but it was cool with him that Lot offered up his daughter's to be raped instead of God's angels who could just fly away.

THAT...  THAT is the Theistic position.

You don't come out and admit all those problems, but, they ARE there.   Read the dang Old Testament and you'll see that god is not at all good or fair or cares about all people or any of it.

So you think that the Theistic position is solid where a god is as old as time or older, and created billions of galaxies... but stopped to take a position on how many shekel's a slave could coast?
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #89 on: June 18, 2014, 09:52:54 AM »
If a creator created everything... did that creator always exist, or did something create it?   If it always existed, why couldn't universes "always exist" in some form or fashion instead of something intelligent?
If we assume the universe has always existed then it defies simple "cause and effect" therefore, it's a supernatural claim.   Other than that, thank you for your thoughtful and honest answer.  :)

I'm not an atheist but I can tell you, the answer is C, we don't know.
Atta boy!! 
I think it's the most honest position besides theistic positions.
What makes the 'supernatural' claim of an always existing universe less honest than the 'supernatural' claim of the theistic positions exactly?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #90 on: June 18, 2014, 09:53:00 AM »
Well first off Shotgun marriages are not all bad.  Some turn out quite nicely:).  My friend was set up in an arranged marriage, 20 years later they are still like newly weds.
Maybe sometimes bad things in life work together for good, but most cases no.

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Could god not have made a universe where free will did not result in suffering?
If you are locked up in jail you can't commit a crime.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #91 on: June 18, 2014, 09:55:01 AM »
It seems like the theistic positions are extremely dishonest.

The Theistic position is something like this.

Since we're not sure what created the universe, it must have been God.   We're pretty sure it's Yahweh, because we have this book called the Bible that's proven historically true!  There's all kinds of evidence?   What do you mean donkeys and snakes don't talk?  What do you mean there's no supporting evidence that Jesus was even alive, let alone performed miracles?  What do you mean that a street magician can pull off tricks that look exactly like Jesus tricks?

Well... since we don't know what created the universe, it had to be God because we have morals right?   Where'd our morality come from if not from God?

What do you mean that God ordered Moses to kill women and babies and take young virgin's prisoner and force them to be wives?   What do you mean God had rules on the price of a slave?   What do you mean that women are second class property even in the New Testament?

God answers all kinds of prayers, he promises he will in the book that we know is true...   What do you mean that any time the effect of prayer is scientifically tested, it fails to make any difference?

Well... um... this god who orders babies to be thrown off walls in the Old Testament and who showed up for Elijah's god test, and who showed up for Paul... he can't show up for scientific tests so he has to purposely let those people in the blind study die at the same rate.

God has to convince us that the earth isn't really 6,000 years old, and that prayer doesn't work, so we have the free will to believe in unbelievable garbage, even though it didn't affect Paul's free will to have a Damascus Road experience.

So... God is the source of all good but it was cool with him that Lot offered up his daughter's to be raped instead of God's angels who could just fly away.

THAT...  THAT is the Theistic position.

That is a theistic position.  There are other theistic positions that do not have those specific silly claims.  I think this reflects John 3 16's views, but exercise caution with the blanket statements.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #92 on: June 18, 2014, 09:55:45 AM »
That is about as unspecific as one can possibly get.
Obvious and unambiguous answers don't need to be specific. 

e.g. if you let go an apple from your hand it will hit the ground caused by gravity.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #93 on: June 18, 2014, 09:57:51 AM »
It seems like the theistic positions are extremely dishonest.

The Theistic position is something like this.
I believe in God because of faith given by God.

We both know we don't decide what we want to believe, agree?

Therefore no dishonesty can be involved in faith in God.
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Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #94 on: June 18, 2014, 10:00:54 AM »
I'm not an atheist but I can tell you, the answer is C, we don't know.
Atta boy!! 
I think it's the most honest position besides theistic positions.
Quote from: jdawg70
What makes the 'supernatural' claim of an always existing universe less honest than the 'supernatural' claim of the theistic positions exactly?

Neither an always existing universe nor a universe that has a beginning are necessarily "supernatural" claims.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #95 on: June 18, 2014, 10:05:53 AM »

What makes the 'supernatural' claim of an always existing universe less honest than the 'supernatural' claim of the theistic positions exactly?

If anything it is slightly more likely. There have been posits of active supernatural agency in the past as causes, demons, ancestors spirits, fairies, and so forth. When science reaches to the point that these supernatural agencies can be ruled out as a cause; every single time they are. That leads to the obvious conclusion using active supernatural agency as an explanation DOES NOT WORK.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #96 on: June 18, 2014, 10:11:36 AM »
I'm not an atheist but I can tell you, the answer is C, we don't know.
Atta boy!! 
I think it's the most honest position besides theistic positions.
Quote from: jdawg70
What makes the 'supernatural' claim of an always existing universe less honest than the 'supernatural' claim of the theistic positions exactly?

Neither an always existing universe nor a universe that has a beginning are necessarily "supernatural" claims.

I agree but John 3 16 was putting the 'always existing' universe as a supernatural claim, and one that is less honest than a supernatural claim involving some type of 'god' entity.  I don't see what's less honest about it.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #97 on: June 18, 2014, 10:14:09 AM »
I'll pick (c) - don't know - though I suspect the actual answer is (b)
So the final answer is (c) thank you.

Quote
Oh yes.  Done it many times - in fact, for every god I've considered, I've either found to my satisfaction that it has no existence, OR that while it may exist it is a god that I don't need to give a toss about.
Thank you for sharing your personal opinion but where is the proof for God's non existency?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 10:30:58 AM by John 3 16 »
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #98 on: June 18, 2014, 10:17:47 AM »
If anything it is slightly more likely. There have been posits of active supernatural agency in the past as causes, demons, ancestors spirits, fairies, and so forth. When science reaches to the point that these supernatural agencies can be ruled out as a cause; every single time they are. That leads to the obvious conclusion using active supernatural agency as an explanation DOES NOT WORK.
People used to confidently conclude that the earth was flat with their scientific evidence and observations.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #99 on: June 18, 2014, 10:19:48 AM »
That is about as unspecific as one can possibly get.
Obvious and unambiguous answers don't need to be specific. 
Pretty sure the only way an answer can be unambiguous is if it is specific.

And keep in mind that what is obvious to you may not necessarily be obvious to people who aren't you.

Quote
e.g. if you let go an apple from your hand it will hit the ground caused by gravity.
Unless the apple is held by a string on the ceiling.  Then it will not hit the ground.

See how being specific helps reduce the ambiguity of a claim?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #100 on: June 18, 2014, 10:20:48 AM »
People used to confidently conclude that the earth was flat with their scientific evidence and observations.

How do you know the earth isn't flat?

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #101 on: June 18, 2014, 10:21:09 AM »
I agree but John 3 16 was putting the 'always existing' universe as a supernatural claim, and one that is less honest than a supernatural claim involving some type of 'god' entity.  I don't see what's less honest about it.
I don't know which is less honest because I don't know who is lying about their claims but both of those claims are based on faith and observations with personal opinions.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #102 on: June 18, 2014, 10:25:37 AM »
I agree but John 3 16 was putting the 'always existing' universe as a supernatural claim, and one that is less honest than a supernatural claim involving some type of 'god' entity.  I don't see what's less honest about it.
I don't know which is less honest because I don't know who is lying about their claims but both of those claims are based on faith and observations with personal opinions.

So then what was the basis of this:
I'm not an atheist but I can tell you, the answer is C, we don't know.
Atta boy!! 
I think it's the most honest position besides theistic positions.

I don't understand the context behind 'most honest' at this point.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #103 on: June 18, 2014, 10:26:32 AM »
Unless the apple is held by a string on the ceiling.  Then it will not hit the ground.

See how being specific helps reduce the ambiguity of a claim?
Being specific wouldn't matter if you keep adding more conditions or change the stipulations.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #104 on: June 18, 2014, 10:28:45 AM »
I don't understand the context behind 'most honest' at this point.
I actually don't either. 
I believe my faith in God came from God.
Where did the faith in "always existing universe" come from?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #105 on: June 18, 2014, 10:37:51 AM »
Unless the apple is held by a string on the ceiling.  Then it will not hit the ground.

See how being specific helps reduce the ambiguity of a claim?
Being specific wouldn't matter if you keep adding more conditions or change the stipulations.

Being specific would prevent me from adding more conditions or changing what is stipulated.  If you had stipulated that the apple wasn't being held by anything other than my hand, then I very well couldn't add the condition of the apple being held by something, right?

The more specific you are, the less room there is for someone to 'change the rules' so to speak.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #106 on: June 18, 2014, 10:39:42 AM »
I don't understand the context behind 'most honest' at this point.
I actually don't either. 
I believe my faith in God came from God.
Where did the faith in "always existing universe" come from?

A typical strawman thread, where the theist imagines that he is arguing with strong atheists.

J316, could you accept a creator God, who was totally different to the way, and purpose that you have been brainwashed to conceive of God?
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #107 on: June 18, 2014, 10:43:52 AM »
The more specific you are, the less room there is for someone to 'change the rules' so to speak.
Okay then let's try.

I believe something can not come from nothing because of "cause and effect" unless you can come up with unambiguous and objective bullet proof evidence and example of an exception to "cause and effect".

Am I specific enough?
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #108 on: June 18, 2014, 10:51:27 AM »
J316, could you accept a creator God, who was totally different to the way, and purpose that you have been brainwashed to conceive of God?
Honestly, I don't know. 
It's a typical strawman question, where the atheist imagines that he is arguing with fake theists.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #109 on: June 18, 2014, 10:56:15 AM »
The more specific you are, the less room there is for someone to 'change the rules' so to speak.
Okay then let's try.

I believe something can not come from nothing because of "cause and effect" unless you can come up with unambiguous and objective bullet proof evidence and example of an exception to "cause and effect".

Am I specific enough?
It's getting better.

Could you explain why the event 'something coming from nothing' is not 'cause and effect'?

But I confess that I cannot provide you with unambiguous and objective bulletproof evidence of exceptions to 'cause and effect' - closest I'd have would be the Casimir effect, but that would hardly constitute 'bulletproof'.  Other models and predictions involving virtual particles would be other examples, but again, those would hardly constitute 'bulletproof'.

Does this mean that god must have a cause then?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Online Emily

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #110 on: June 18, 2014, 10:56:19 AM »
unless you can come up with unambiguous and objective bullet proof evidence and example of an exception to "cause and effect".

Where does God fall into this? Where is the bullet proof evidence that he is an exception to "cause and effect"? The only place where something can actually come from nothing is found in religious text, anyway. For example, creation ex nihilo.[1]

If you have some time to watch a video, take a look at this video which gets spread around a lot in regards to a universe out of nothing:



If you really want to be honest in your questions you'd watch it to find an answer from a physics point of view.
 1. http://www.gotquestions.org/creation-ex-nihilo.html
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 11:01:34 AM by Emily »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2014, 10:56:42 AM »

I don't understand the context behind 'most honest' at this point.

I think I do "honest" means "agrees with my credulous belief in a particular mythology" in the theists eyes, or basically, lying.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2014, 11:01:58 AM »
J316, could you accept a creator God, who was totally different to the way, and purpose that you have been brainwashed to conceive of God?
Honestly, I don't know. 
It's a typical strawman question, where the atheist imagines that he is arguing with fake theists.

It's not a strawman question, but you seem to be saying that God is the way you have been brainwashed to believe he is.
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Offline voodoo child

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2014, 11:04:50 AM »

I believe my faith in God came from God.


It came from you're parents and friends, because you certainly don't want to be the round peg trying to fit in the square hole.
Where did wishful thinking come from?  You're brain..

Cause and effect is a concept to give theists a special comfort that their lives are laid out for them.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2014, 11:06:10 AM »
  Name an instance of telling a lie to save a life.   

"I have no idea where your car keys are" to the drunk person who insists he's fine to drive.

None of the examples given require one to lie to save a life.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #115 on: June 18, 2014, 11:07:43 AM »
You should let him defend himself.  really.
It isn't about defending him.  You'll notice that I called you on
 
Quote from: John 3 16
Pretty much everything you see in everyday life.  The sun, the moon, the earth, etc... not to mention "cause and effect".
Do I really need to explain the definition of 'specific' to you?

None of those things will actually demonstrate your god's existence unless someone happens to already believe in him, which defeats the purpose.  I want specific things that unambiguously demonstrate the existence of your god.  For example, if he were to appear right in front of me out of nowhere, that would be both specific and unambiguous.  But right now, you're relying on logic to 'prove' that he exists.  However, since your logic is circular - your god exists because things like the sun, the moon, and the earth exist, because your god supposedly created them - it means if I doubt your conclusion, I also doubt your premise, and the whole thing fails.

Another problem exists with your cause/effect argument.  If something can not come from nothing...then where did your god come from?  If he came from nothing, you've violated your own premise via special pleading; if he came from something, then he isn't the ultimate creator of everything; and if he always existed, then your logic is incomplete and therefore fallacious.  Not to mention that if your god can be eternal, you have given no reason for why something else (like, say, the universe itself) cannot also be eternal.