Author Topic: The origin of the Universe and atheism.  (Read 2020 times)

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Offline Boots

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2014, 12:19:48 PM »
Maybe God wants to help us. (hint John 3:16) but he doesn't want to interfere with our free will.  After all who would want a "shotgun marriage"?

I *really* depsise this answer.  It seems to say that, if a diety actively helped someone in a non-ambiguous way, the helped individual would be somehow forced to love/obey/worship said diety.

Is an organ recipient forced to love the person who donated the organ?  Is a crime victim forced to love the cop who saved him/her from injury/death?

Where does anyone come off thinking that a non-abmiguous display would deprive anyone of free will??
It's one of the reasons I'm an atheist today.  I decided to take my religion seriously, and that's when it started to fall apart for me.
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2014, 12:31:20 PM »
There are certain traits missing from this definition of a perfect being that's being proposed.  A couple of them are unlimited wisdom and justice.  These traits direct Jehovah's benevolence and strength.  A perfect being would do the wisest thing which would undoubtedly be different than someone's SPAG.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2014, 12:32:26 PM »
"Something like supernatural"?  The hell are you even saying?
Hold up!! before we go any further.  Let's look at the definition of "supernatural"

su·per·nat·u·ral  [soo-per-nach-er-uhl, -nach-ruhl]  Show IPA
adjective
1.
of, pertaining to, or being above or beyond what is natural; unexplainable by natural law or phenomena; abnormal.
2.
of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or attributed to God or a deity.
3.
of a superlative degree; preternatural: a missile of supernatural speed.
4.
of, pertaining to, or attributed to ghosts, goblins, or other unearthly beings; eerie; occult.

source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/supernatural

Azdgari, when there is something that is either self existent or has always existed, what would you call it? natural?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2014, 12:34:37 PM »
A couple of them are unlimited wisdom and justice.

Since you haven't defined "wisdom" in a clear and meaningful manner, I reserve the right to reject it. And now I'm using it. Same goes for "justice".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Online Azdgari

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2014, 12:38:29 PM »
Hold up!! before we go any further.  Let's look at the definition of "supernatural" ...

Not the problem.  I know what "supernatural" means.  The problem was your syntax.  Your sentence did not make sense as worded.

Now, to my unanswered question that bears strongly on the topic of the thread:
Why are gods a go-to answer for explaining the universe's origin?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2014, 12:52:02 PM »
A couple of them are unlimited wisdom and justice.  These traits direct Jehovah's benevolence and strength.

What about unlimited mercy?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2014, 12:54:13 PM »
A couple of them are unlimited wisdom and justice.

Since you haven't defined "wisdom" in a clear and meaningful manner, I reserve the right to reject it. And now I'm using it. Same goes for "justice".

I did clearly define it.  Wisdom is doing something in the most optimal way.  That is a clear definition.  I even provided you with the dictionary definition of "optimal". 

Justice

1 a:  the maintenance or administration of what is just especially by the impartial adjustment of conflicting claims or the assignment of merited rewards or punishments

b:  judge

c:  the administration of law; especially:  the establishment or determination of rights according to the rules of law or equity

2
 a:  the quality of being just, impartial, or fair

b (1):  the principle or ideal of just dealing or right action (2):  conformity to this principle or ideal :  righteousness

c:  the quality of conforming to law

3
:  conformity to truth, fact, or reason :  correctness


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2014, 12:55:31 PM »
Why are gods a go-to answer for explaining the universe's origin?
Why not?  I am not talking about certain god/s or the bible god I am talking about the creator and its creation.

If you don't know how the universe and we came to exist, how do you assert the universe and we aren't made by the creator?  Isn't it most natural thing to do to assume that when there is an object "a" one would assume that the object "a" is made by someone or something?

We have several posts back and forth but no one has yet answered this:

Now, shall we turn the table and talk about the origin of the universe and atheism?

What do you say about the origin of the universe?

a)the big bang?
b)has always existed?
c)don't know?
Come on guys.  It's a basic manner to answer a question before asking a new question.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2014, 01:02:02 PM »
I did clearly define it.  Wisdom is doing something in the most optimal way.  That is a clear definition.

Clear and meaningful. As in, clear, and not left to personal interpretation, among other things.
I'm honestly beginning to think you're either illiterate, have seizures while reading, or just stop reading posts halfway through.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2014, 01:08:11 PM »
What do you say about the origin of the universe?

a)the big bang?
b)has always existed?
c)don't know?

At this moment in time, ultimately c) don't know. That is in my opinion and an intellectually honest answer.

Based on what we humans have learned so far, however, my opinion is that current version of what we call "the universe" originated in the Big Bang. However, it is also my opinion that the matter that comprises what we call the universe has always existed in one form or the other.

Note: these are my opinions based on our current (limited) understanding of the subject at hand and can be changed upon new evidence being discovered and verified.

Now, if I may ask you a question (to satisfy my curiosity as we have never conversed before):

What do you say about the origin of "God"?

a) had himself been created at some point?
b) has always existed?
c) cannot definitively say one way or the other?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online Azdgari

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2014, 01:11:14 PM »
Why not?  I am not talking about certain god/s or the bible god I am talking about the creator and its creation.

Because gods have not yet been demonstrated to be a real thing, let alone a real thing that creates other things.  Positing creator-gods makes as much logical sense as creator-coke-cans.

If you don't know how the universe and we came to exist, how do you assert the universe and we aren't made by the creator?

The creator-coke-can?  What creator?

Isn't it most natural thing to do to assume that when there is an object "a" one would assume that the object "a" is made by someone or something?

Sure, but that has nothing to do with gods.

We have several posts back and forth but no one has yet answered this:

Now, shall we turn the table and talk about the origin of the universe and atheism?

What do you say about the origin of the universe?

a)the big bang?
b)has always existed?
c)don't know?
Come on guys.  It's a basic manner to answer a question before asking a new question.

A and C.  Big Bang happened, as for whether it's the origin of the universe, that's impossible to say.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Emily

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2014, 01:14:19 PM »
Now, shall we turn the table and talk about the origin of the universe and atheism?

What do you say about the origin of the universe?

a)the big bang?
b)has always existed?
c)don't know?
Come on guys.  It's a basic manner to answer a question before asking a new question.

I pick a little bit of A, B and C.

A: because I accept the big bang as the best possible explanation for the origin of the universe. Reason being because it makes more sense than what religious text have to say about the origin of the universe. However, regarding atheism: There could have been some deity behind the big bang. Maybe he made the universe out of bordom while he was waiting for his coffee to brew. I don't know. I wasn't there. I do hold a .01 percent chance of there being a god, just to be safe. But when it comes to certain god's, like YHWH, Zeus, Allah, etc. I sincerely doubt they exist. But then again, an acceptance of the big bang has got nothing to do with atheism.

B: It could have always existed. IDK. I'm not qualified to confirm or deny that the universe has always existed in one form or another.

C: There must have been some kind of origin for whatever expanded. Just don't know what it is yet, how it got there, etc.

 
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2014, 01:15:25 PM »
At this moment in time, ultimately c) don't know. That is in my opinion and an intellectually honest answer.

Based on what we humans have learned so far, however, my opinion is that current version of what we call "the universe" originated in the Big Bang. However, it is also my opinion that the matter that comprises what we call the universe has always existed in one form or the other.

Note: these are my opinions based on our current (limited) understanding of the subject at hand and can be changed upon new evidence being discovered and verified.
Thank you for your thoughtful and honest answer.  I would love to give you +1 if I could.

Quote
Now, if I may ask you a question (to satisfy my curiosity as we have never conversed before):
Probably anther thread?

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2014, 01:21:21 PM »
Maybe God wants to help us. (hint John 3:16) but he doesn't want to interfere with our free will.  After all who would want a "shotgun marriage"?

I *really* depsise this answer.  It seems to say that, if a diety actively helped someone in a non-ambiguous way, the helped individual would be somehow forced to love/obey/worship said diety.

Is an organ recipient forced to love the person who donated the organ?  Is a crime victim forced to love the cop who saved him/her from injury/death?

Where does anyone come off thinking that a non-abmiguous display would deprive anyone of free will??

What you mean like something like parting the red sea? Because there would be evidence that from that day forward everyone in Egypt immediate and irrevocably became Jewish...except they didn't.

Or any of the times God actually supposedly talks to people through the Bible and the disobey him. The central book of fables of the Christian faith disproves this as a rational.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 01:28:53 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2014, 01:23:45 PM »
The creator-coke-can?  What creator?
It is intellectually dishonest to bring up many imaginary gods when we are strictly talking about the creations and the creator God.  (cause and effect).
 
Quote
A and C.  Big Bang happened
Now you are making a positive claim.  Positive claim requires evidence.  This case the Big bang is an extraordinary one hence, extra ordinary claim.

Quote
as for whether it's the origin of the universe, that's impossible to say.
Did the Big Bang created the universe? or it just created some thing big and loud sound "bang"?
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2014, 01:28:13 PM »
What you mean like something like parting the red sea? Because there would be evidence that from that day forward everyone in Egypt immediate and irrevocably became Jewish...except they didn't.

Now you are irrevocably Dynamo's disciple.  ;D
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2014, 01:30:25 PM »
A couple of them are unlimited wisdom and justice.  These traits direct Jehovah's benevolence and strength.

What about unlimited mercy?

That would be under the quality of love.  The four primary traits of Jehovah are love, justice, power, and wisdom.  These are the traits of a perfect God.  All other qualites are derived from these traits.  These traits work in perfect harmony with one another.  None of them operate in isolation from the others. 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2014, 01:36:09 PM »
I did clearly define it.  Wisdom is doing something in the most optimal way.  That is a clear definition.

Clear and meaningful. As in, clear, and not left to personal interpretation, among other things.
I'm honestly beginning to think you're either illiterate, have seizures while reading, or just stop reading posts halfway through.

My twelve year old boy understands it.

You are saying you don't know what wisdom and justice are nor can you understand the definitions of the words.  You should keep that in mind before you try to ridicule others.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2014, 01:44:07 PM »
My twelve year old boy understands it.

A: I doubt you ever got laid.
B: I doubt you ever had a son.
C: I doubt your son is 12 years old.

Regardless, it is not that I don't understand it. It is that the definition is vague and depends on personal opinion, which your son, due to having been brainwashed into being a Jehovah's Witness by a Jehovah's Witness who himself was brainwashed, would share with you.

You are saying you don't know what wisdom and justice are nor can you understand the definitions of the words.  You should keep that in mind before you try to ridicule others.

I don't try. I succeed. You try. And you fail.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2014, 01:52:44 PM »
My twelve year old boy understands it.

You are saying you don't know what wisdom and justice are nor can you understand the definitions of the words.  You should keep that in mind before you try to ridicule others.
JST.  He is the one that debunked Christianity and God numerous times in the past.
Ones below him like us will never be able to fathom his mind and understanding.
That's why "He" is the one above all, [mod edit: removed unnecessary distortion of past user name].
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 03:33:10 PM by jetson »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2014, 01:54:52 PM »
It is intellectually dishonest to bring up many imaginary gods when we are strictly talking about the creations and the creator God.  (cause and effect).
For you to exclude your god from all those other gods, you must show that he is not imaginary - that is, that he actually exists.  Otherwise, you're engaging in special pleading, which is itself a kind of intellectual dishonesty.
 
Quote from: John 3 16
Now you are making a positive claim.  Positive claim requires evidence.  This case the Big bang is an extraordinary one hence, extra ordinary claim.
We do have evidence showing that the Big Bang happened.  The cosmic microwave background radiation is probably the single strongest piece of evidence supporting the Big Bang.  In any case, it hardly requires 'extraordinary' evidence, because it is not an extraordinary claim.  It simply follows from what we've observed in the universe.

Quote from: John 3 16
Did the Big Bang created the universe? or it just created some thing big and loud sound "bang"?
If you're not even going to try to take your own topic seriously, why should anyone else?

Offline Don_Quixote

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2014, 01:55:18 PM »
Will this thread end up with the "see athiests? You don't know either how did the universe came from. You requirez faith!"?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2014, 01:57:14 PM »
I did clearly define it.  Wisdom is doing something in the most optimal way.  That is a clear definition.

Clear and meaningful. As in, clear, and not left to personal interpretation, among other things.
I'm honestly beginning to think you're either illiterate, have seizures while reading, or just stop reading posts halfway through.

Oh come on. He's just not getting that such concepts are subjective because he hangs his hook that there is an Objective Singular Morality through an invisible intangible entity as described in a book written by people who didn't have a concept that water is not hidden above the clouds and putting striped sticks in from of goats will not make them striped goats.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2014, 02:00:48 PM »
I don't try. I succeed. You try. And you fail.

I don't even try.  There is no wisdom in doing so.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline One Above All

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2014, 02:01:53 PM »
I don't even try.

Which is why you fail. See how that works? ;)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2014, 02:02:06 PM »
It is intellectually dishonest to bring up many imaginary gods when we are strictly talking about the creations and the creator God.  (cause and effect).
For you to exclude your god from all those other gods, you must show that he is not imaginary - that is, that he actually exists.  Otherwise, you're engaging in special pleading, which is itself a kind of intellectual dishonesty.
 

Actually it is not just special pleading, he's engaging in equivocation. Creation is an argument for the Deist God, Creator God...but he uses the ever so common tactic switching it to the favored God that a particular tribe of desert Nomads, after they got rid of El, Trying to hide it, because the English language uses the same word for both.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2014, 02:06:43 PM »
I would love to give you +1 if I could.

You could. The button is right over there.
<-----
 :)

Quote
Probably anther thread?

<shrugs> I have no follow-up questions, so I don't think an entire new thread is warranted. I was just wondering if... assuming you believe in an eternal "God"... you also leave room for the possibility of "God" also having an origin.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2014, 02:07:38 PM »
My twelve year old boy understands it.

You are saying you don't know what wisdom and justice are nor can you understand the definitions of the words.  You should keep that in mind before you try to ridicule others.
JST.  He is the one that debunked Christianity and God numerous times in the past.
Ones below him like us will never be able to fathom his mind and understanding.
That's why "He" is the one above all, formally known as blazingchickenLuciferAllInOne.

Yes I know.  But the only thing OAA has really said to me is, "not only does my definition of God not exist, it CANNOT exist."

I see no need to argue that point.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2014, 02:07:53 PM »
For you to exclude your god from all those other gods, you must show that he is not imaginary - that is, that he actually exists.  Otherwise, you're engaging in special pleading, which is itself a kind of intellectual dishonesty.
I am not talking about the bible god in this thread.
 
Quote
We do have evidence showing that the Big Bang happened.  The cosmic microwave background radiation is probably the single strongest piece of evidence supporting the Big Bang.  In any case, it hardly requires 'extraordinary' evidence, because it is not an extraordinary claim.  It simply follows from what we've observed in the universe.
The same with my claim about the creator God.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.