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Offline John 3 16

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The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« on: June 17, 2014, 08:37:52 AM »
Now, shall we turn the table and talk about the origin of the universe and atheism?

What do you say about the origin of the universe?

a)the big bang?
b)has always existed?
c)don't know?
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Online One Above All

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2014, 08:39:49 AM »
What does the origin of the universe have to do with atheism, assuming the cause to be natural (which is what your three answers imply)?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2014, 08:50:08 AM »
What does the origin of the universe have to do with atheism
Certain type of atheism (strong atheism) asserts that there is no creator God, hence the universe was not created by the creator.

In order for them to assert/claim that, they would have to have objective and observable evidence for the origin of the universe otherwise I believe "strong atheism" is another type of ideology based on faith.

Quote
assuming the cause to be natural (which is what your three answers imply)?
Those two answers[1] surely aren't natural phenomenas.
 1. a and b
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2014, 08:54:05 AM »
Certain type of atheism (strong atheism) asserts that there is no creator God, hence the universe was not created by the creator.

In order for them to assert/claim that, they would have to have objective and observable evidence for the origin of the universe otherwise I believe "strong atheism" is another type of ideology based on faith.

Wrong. For a gnostic atheist to be a gnostic atheist, all he/she has to do is prove the non-existence of "God (sic)". He/She does not need to explain the origin of the Universe, or anything else, in fact.

Those two answers[1] surely aren't natural phenomenas.
 1. a and b

Not if you don't have the remotest inkling of what that means. Hellfire rained down- Wait, I took the quote too far. Ignore everything other than the first sentence of this paragraph.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2014, 09:01:24 AM »
Wrong. For a gnostic atheist to be a gnostic atheist, all he/she has to do is prove the non-existence of "God (sic)".
You can't prove a negative, remember?

Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of atheism that asserts that no deities exist.

Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2014, 09:07:35 AM »
You can't prove a negative, remember?

Says who? You can't prove with evidence, but you can prove the impossibility of a concept with logic (since there wouldn't be any evidence to be found, nor do we know what would constitute "evidence of non-existence" for ill/loosely-defined terms).
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2014, 09:20:19 AM »
You can't prove a negative, remember?

Says who? You can't prove with evidence, but you can prove the impossibility of a concept with logic (since there wouldn't be any evidence to be found, nor do we know what would constitute "evidence of non-existence" for ill/loosely-defined terms).
Then can you prove that there is no God.?

I believe there is the universe and it has to be created by the creator by simple logic (cause and effect).
What is your logical explanation if you believe otherwise ?
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2014, 09:38:18 AM »
Then can you prove that there is no God.?

I have done so countless, countless times.

I believe there is the universe and it has to be created by the creator by simple logic (cause and effect).
What is your logical explanation if you believe otherwise ?

Again, I don't need to prove how the Universe came to be, or anything other than the fact that there is no god.

Here's my proof.
What makes a god a god is left up to the individual to decide. There isn't one single definition of the term. Some gods are/were believed to have created the Universe (the deist god, monotheistic gods), while others (most, in fact) were not believed to have created the Universe (Norse gods, Egyptian gods). Therefore, I have defined what a god is to me with this simple sentence. A god is an omnipotent and omniscient being. For a god to be worthy of worship, it[1] also needs to have a third property - benevolence - but we'll get to that later.

Now, omnipotence has paradoxes associated with it. Indeed, the very definition is paradoxical: some things are simply impossible by definition, such as calculating the last digit of any irrational number and slamming a revolving door, yet an omnipotent being should be able to do these things. The impossible is called "impossible" for a reason: it cannot be done. If the impossible is possible, then there is something an omnipotent being cannot do: the impossible, because there's no such thing. However, an omnipotent being should be able to create impossible things, starting the cycle all over again.
Omniscience also has paradoxes associated with it. Can an omniscient being conceive of information that it does not know? If so, it didn't know everything. If not, it does not know everything.
These two together create paradoxes of multiversal proportions. Can an omnipotent and omniscient being make itself know more?

Benevolence is another issue. By itself, benevolence is possible on some level. However, when you toss in infinite power and knowledge, there's no conceivable way in which a benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient being would allow suffering to exist, even as a concept. Due to its unlimited power, all it would have to do is want to make suffering non-existent, while fully preserving free will, and it would be so.

Satisfied?

EDIT: Completely unrelated to this: John 3 16, do you always use a spell checker?[2]
 1. A supreme being in monotheism can't have a gender, or at least not one we understand. To claim that, not only does it have a gender, but it is a male, is misogynistic and shows who made up religion in the first place: (stupid) men.
 2. Not saying or thinking that your spelling is bad.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 09:43:58 AM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline bgb

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 09:59:10 AM »
If god created the universe then who created the god?
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline Astreja

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 10:09:15 AM »
Then can you prove that there is no God?

Personally, I take an apatheist/ignostic POV on this.  I don't see any credible evidence and haven't heard any consistent answer as to the identity and nature of the alleged god, so I simply don't bother worrying about "proof" at this time.  It's like being asked to disprove an octarine snorglefrop -- I have no idea what I'm actually trying to disprove, so the problem goes far beyond "You can't disprove a negative."

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I believe there is the universe and it has to be {emphasis Mine} created by the creator by simple logic (cause and effect).  What is your logical explanation if you believe otherwise ?

Not seeing the rationale behind the "has to be."  We need a lot more information about the universe before jumping to the conclusion that it was created by a sentient being.  For the moment, I'd have to answer "I don't know yet; I'm waiting for more data."


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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 10:13:21 AM »
It's like being asked to disprove an octarine snorglefrop -- I have no idea what I'm actually trying to disprove, so the problem goes far beyond "You can't disprove a negative."

Obviously an octarine snorglefrop can't exist because ripe bananas are yellow.
Boom! Disproved.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 10:19:35 AM »
Here's my proof.
Thanks for you explanation but IMO, if it is a simple deity/s we are talking about then the deity/s doesn't have to be Omni anything or deserving to be worshiped.

Therefore, "strong atheism" (asserting that no deities exist) is still illogical.

Quote
Benevolence is another issue. By itself, benevolence is possible on some level. However, when you toss in infinite power and knowledge, there's no conceivable way in which a benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient being would allow suffering to exist, even as a concept. Due to its unlimited power, all it would have to do is want to make suffering non-existent, while fully preserving free will, and it would be so.
I agree with you at certain degree but just because the concept is inconceivable that doesn't mean a benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient being cannot exist only because there is suffering[1], right?  Considering the universe is full of non-omni beings such as us.

Quote
EDIT: Completely unrelated to this: John 3 16, do you always use a spell checker?[2]
 2. Not saying or thinking that your spelling is bad.
Most of times but not always, why?
 1. According to that logic, if there were no suffering, then God must exist.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2014, 10:24:21 AM »
Thanks for you explanation but IMO, if it is a simple deity/s we are talking about then the deity/s doesn't have to be Omni anything or deserving to be worshiped.

Therefore, "strong atheism" (asserting that no deities exist) is still illogical.

All gods are deities (but not all deities are gods). However, since I don't consider anything less than a perfect being to be a god, I consider all deities to be candidates for gods, and I wouldn't call myself a theist unless a god (by my definition of the term) were proven to exist, I remain a gnostic (the space is not a typo) atheist.

I agree with you at certain degree but just because the concept is inconceivable that doesn't mean a benevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient being cannot exist only because there is suffering, right?  Considering the universe is full of non-omni beings such as us.

Wrong. Omnimax benevolent deity=no suffering.

According to that logic, if there were no suffering, then God must exist.

No. A may imply B, but B does not necessarily imply A. For example, all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares, and not all non-squares are rectangles.

Most of times but not always, why?

Well, if you keep making somewhat acceptable arguments (for a theist), I may give you your first +1 (for that account; dunno about your other ones) for making them without seeming like an illiterate idiot and taking the time not to seem like an illiterate idiot.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 10:28:10 AM by One Above All »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 10:26:27 AM »
For the moment, I'd have to answer "I don't know yet; I'm waiting for more data."
Completely understand.  Thank you for your answer.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2014, 10:27:24 AM »
What do you say about the origin of the universe?
As we understand it, the origin of the current universe - the event that ultimately resulted in the universe we see today - is the Big Bang.  Beyond that, who can say?  When everything that exists is packed inside an extremely tiny and extremely hot space, it tends to wipe out any signs of what might have preceded it.

That, however, doesn't justify whatever belief you want to use to fill in the blanks.  Such as imagining an intelligent creator who somehow always existed.  You claim that your belief, that the universe must have been created by the creator, is simple logic.  Yet, if this creator of yours did not need to be created by something, then your proposition that the universe must have been is not valid.  To propose that the universe must have been created, and at the same time claim that the creator of that universe did not also need to be created, is a contradiction and negates your 'simple' logic.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2014, 10:28:40 AM »
It's like being asked to disprove an octarine snorglefrop -- I have no idea what I'm actually trying to disprove, so the problem goes far beyond "You can't disprove a negative."

Obviously an octarine snorglefrop can't exist because ripe bananas are yellow.
Boom! Disproved.
I believe there is an invisible pink unicorn in my garage.....
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #16 on: June 17, 2014, 10:38:15 AM »
All gods are deities (but not all deities are gods). However, since I don't consider anything less than a perfect being to be a god
Are you asserting that "perfection" cannot exist?

Quote
I remain a gnostic (the space is not a typo) atheist.
You are saying you know something that is inconceivable.  Is it logical?

Quote
Wrong. Omnimax benevolent deity=no suffering.
IMO it's a SPAG.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #17 on: June 17, 2014, 10:46:01 AM »
That, however, doesn't justify whatever belief you want to use to fill in the blanks.  Such as imagining an intelligent creator who somehow always existed.
In this thread, I would like to talk about gnostic/strong/positive atheism.  Not the bible God.  Therefore, I am not making any claim.  I am asking questions here.

Quote
When everything that exists is packed inside an extremely tiny and extremely hot space, it tends to wipe out any signs of what might have preceded it.
Then you believe there was something before the universe existed?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2014, 10:52:55 AM »
n this thread, I would like to talk about gnostic/strong/positive atheism.  Not the bible God.  Therefore, I am not making any claim.  I am asking questions here.
The fact remains that you've made the claim in the past.  Given your conduct, it's a little hard to forget.

Quote from: John 3 16
Then you believe there was something before the universe existed?
Did I say that?  Read what I wrote a bit more carefully.

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2014, 10:54:05 AM »
Are you asserting that "perfection" cannot exist?

Yes. To be perfect, one would need infinite characteristics to be just right. This is mathematically and physically impossible.

You are saying you know something that is inconceivable.  Is it logical?

Who said it's inconceivable? I've conceived of it, which is why I know it can't exist.

IMO it's a SPAG.

What are the properties of a benevolent person? Do they sit by and watch as others are tortured, raped, murdered, and so on? Or do they help to the limit of their abilities? When it comes to an omnimax being, this limit does not exist; their power is, quite literally, limitless. If they wanted to make it so, it would be so, just because they wanted it.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2014, 10:59:01 AM »
n this thread, I would like to talk about gnostic/strong/positive atheism.  Not the bible God.  Therefore, I am not making any claim.  I am asking questions here.
The fact remains that you've made the claim in the past.  Given your conduct, it's a little hard to forget.
Well you should try harder otherwise why even bother making a new thread?
Aren't you open minded enough to talk about different subjects in each different threads?  :)
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2014, 11:41:15 AM »
Yes. To be perfect, one would need infinite characteristics to be just right. This is mathematically and physically impossible.
Another SPAG.  What you think impossible doesn't automatically become impossible.

Quote
Who said it's inconceivable? I've conceived of it, which is why I know it can't exist.
I have a red Coke can in my hand I know it is made by the company called Coca Cola.  We have the universe, at this point no one seems to know how it came to exist.  Except OAA in WWGHA, he knows.... ;)  no wonder his name is one above all.

Quote
What are the properties of a benevolent person? Do they sit by and watch as others are tortured, raped, murdered, and so on? Or do they help to the limit of their abilities? When it comes to an omnimax being, this limit does not exist; their power is, quite literally, limitless. If they wanted to make it so, it would be so, just because they wanted it.
Maybe God wants to help us. (hint John 3:16) but he doesn't want to interfere with our free will.  After all who would want a "shotgun marriage"?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2014, 11:44:04 AM »
Why are gods a go-to answer for explaining the universe's origin?  Seems awfully arrogant for a person to think that the origin of the universe was something like a super-person.
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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2014, 11:47:19 AM »
Another SPAG.  What you think impossible doesn't automatically become impossible.

It's not that I think it's impossible, it's the fact that it is impossible. An infinitely perfect being needs infinite properties. Infinity cannot exist (it's not even a number; it's just a concept), so an infinitely perfect being cannot exist.

We have the universe, at this point no one seems to know how it came to exist.  Except OAA in WWGHA, he knows.... ;)  no wonder his name is one above all.

And you've just ruined your chances of getting a +1 from me. Strawmen turn me off, especially when I've already debunked them. Twice.

Maybe God wants to help us. (hint John 3:16) but he doesn't want to interfere with our free will.  After all who would want a "shotgun marriage"?

An omnipotent being could help without interfering with free will.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2014, 11:53:22 AM »
Why are gods a go-to answer for explaining the universe's origin?  Seems awfully arrogant for a person to think that the origin of the universe was something like a super-person.
I have a red Coke can in my hand and I know it was made by the company Coca cola.
It seems awfully arrogant for a person to think the universe was something like supernatural.[1]
 1. a)self existence or b)has always existed.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2014, 11:56:15 AM »
I have a red Coke can in my hand and I know it was made by the company Coca cola.

Actually, people with machines make Coke cans for Coca Cola.  This is observable.  Now, will you answer my question?

It seems awfully arrogant for a person to think the universe was something like supernatural.[1]
 1. a)self existence or b)has always existed.

"Something like supernatural"?  The hell are you even saying?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2014, 11:56:36 AM »
Well you should try harder otherwise why even bother making a new thread?
The problem is, atheism isn't really based on "the origin of the universe" to begin with.  I don't think atheists, even gnostic atheists, disbelieve in gods because of the Big Bang being a natural event.  If you want to find out why people are gnostic atheists, you'd do much better to just ask them and focus on the reasons they give for it.

Quote from: John 3 16
Aren't you open minded enough to talk about different subjects in each different threads?  :)
The problem is, this is looking all too much like you're leading up to "if you don't know for certain, how can you be an atheist?"  Honestly, I don't think gnostic atheists even look at it that way.  OAA's response is not based on the origins of the universe, but because the universe pretty clearly precludes the existence of gods (beings with omni/infinite properties).

Offline John 3 16

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2014, 12:17:33 PM »
It's not that I think it's impossible, it's the fact that it is impossible. An infinitely perfect being needs infinite properties. Infinity cannot exist (it's not even a number; it's just a concept), so an infinitely perfect being cannot exist.
You are still asserting that what you think is what it is.

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And you've just ruined your chances of getting a +1 from me.
Thanks but no thanks I prefer keeping my record impeccable as it is.

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when I've already debunked them. Twice.
Look!! One above all just debunked Christianity and God.  BTW that is all the rest ones below him doing? holding onto a belief that OAA had debunked already?silly theists.

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An omnipotent being could help without interfering with free will.
What I just said.  He could but didn't want to.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

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Re: The origin of the Universe and atheism.
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2014, 12:19:10 PM »
Seeing as how John 3 16 doesn't want to have or is incapable of having an honest discussion, consider this my last post replying to him in this thread.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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