Author Topic: Big Bang - Black Holes  (Read 266 times)

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Online YRM_DM

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Big Bang - Black Holes
« on: July 18, 2014, 09:14:35 AM »
If I understand the theories correctly, everything "began" at the Big Bang, including time and space.

There was "nothing" before this.

---

On the flip side, if I understand the theories of Black Holes correctly, Einstein's law breaks down at the center of a black hole.

Time and space cease to exist at the center of a black hole.   It's "nothing" mathematically.

It's a singularity... a singular point of infinite gravity, etc.

(forgive me for not fully grasping the math of this but, I think I'm not far off here)

---

Could it be possible that the math calculating the origin of our universe traces it back to the point of a super massive black hole that finally "exploded"?   Maybe exploded isn't the right word but is it possible that a black hole can have a breaking point that is much longer than it takes for a star to reach it's breaking point?

We know that stars can explode after huge amounts of time when their reaction starts to create iron.

Why couldn't there be places in the universe where black holes are "exploding" all the time?   They're just so few and far between based on what we can observe that we can only see "ours"

At one point, we thought our sun was the only sun.
At one point, we thought our galaxy was the only galaxy.
Right now, we think our universe is the only universe.

I don't get the math of it exactly but it seems like there's no top or bottom level for size... there's just a level that we can't see past.  (sub atomic particles in one direction, the big bang in the other)

Obviously this is speculation but, is there any reason why it wouldn't be possible?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2014, 09:21:54 AM »
A singularity (infinity) is just math's way of telling us "You fucked up somewhere". Infinity is not a physical possibility; it's just a mathematical concept. Scientists are trying to step away from the singularities and find theories that don't break down when we go into the "singularity" of a black hole. In addition, black holes dissipate. They emit energy, just like everything else in the Universe. Search for "Hawking radiation", as well as angular momentum (I think that's the one). If a black hole spins "indefinitely" at varying speeds, it must be using energy to speed up and releasing energy to slow down. Either that or it just converts matter into energy and vice-versa "at will". Which do you think is more likely?
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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2014, 09:30:06 AM »
A singularity (infinity) is just math's way of telling us "You fucked up somewhere". Infinity is not a physical possibility; it's just a mathematical concept. Scientists are trying to step away from the singularities and find theories that don't break down when we go into the "singularity" of a black hole. In addition, black holes dissipate. They emit energy, just like everything else in the Universe. Search for "Hawking radiation", as well as angular momentum (I think that's the one). If a black hole spins "indefinitely" at varying speeds, it must be using energy to speed up and releasing energy to slow down. Either that or it just converts matter into energy and vice-versa "at will". Which do you think is more likely?

Then there is Super massive black holes vs black holes.   If a super massive black hole has more gravity than a black hole isn't  that then an indication that a plain old black hole does not have infinte gravity?

Offline One Above All

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2014, 09:32:43 AM »
Then there is Super massive black holes vs black holes.   If a super massive black hole has more gravity than a black hole isn't  that then an indication that a plain old black hole does not have infinte gravity?

I'll assume that by "has more gravity" you mean that it has more mass, since particles don't have gravity.
Anyway, the "singularity" is the deepest part of the black hole. It refers to a point where space-time distortions are infinite due to infinite density. Basically it's an infinitesimal spot that has some mass.[1] The fact that a super massive black hole has more mass is meaningless. Saturn has about 95 times the Earth's mass, yet it will/would still float in water, whereas Earth will/would sink to the bottom.
 1. Density=Mass/Volume. Any number divided by zero spits out an infinity.
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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2014, 11:31:25 AM »
Then there is Super massive black holes vs black holes.   If a super massive black hole has more gravity than a black hole isn't  that then an indication that a plain old black hole does not have infinte gravity?

I'll assume that by "has more gravity" you mean that it has more mass, since particles don't have gravity.
Anyway, the "singularity" is the deepest part of the black hole. It refers to a point where space-time distortions are infinite due to infinite density. Basically it's an infinitesimal spot that has some mass.[1] The fact that a super massive black hole has more mass is meaningless. Saturn has about 95 times the Earth's mass, yet it will/would still float in water, whereas Earth will/would sink to the bottom.
 1. Density=Mass/Volume. Any number divided by zero spits out an infinity.

I guess the question the force of gravity in a small black hole is infinite, I would think that there would be no such thing as a large black hole.  How do you have greater than infinite.  Adding mass to a black hole to increase the already infinite pull of gravity would appear to be impossible.  Shouldn't this make all black holes effectively the same size?  Every time I have heard of super massive black holes it seems as if they are described to be different from ordinary black holes.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2014, 11:34:00 AM »
D = M/V.

For D to be infinite, V would be an infinitely small number (or zero, correct?)

How can something have mass but take up zero volume?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2014, 11:40:59 AM »
I guess the question the force of gravity in a small black hole is infinite, I would think that there would be no such thing as a large black hole.

Why not? Size by itself has nothing to do with density, as I attempted to exemplify with the Saturn-Earth comparison.

How do you have greater than infinite.

How many numbers are there between 0 and 1? Infinite. There's 0.1, 0.01, 0.001, and so on. Now how many numbers are there between 0 and 2? Also infinite, yet twice as many as between 0 and 1.
There are many types of infinity. Infinite types, actually. Regardless, adding mass doesn't mean something will become denser.

Adding mass to a black hole to increase the already infinite pull of gravity would appear to be impossible.  Shouldn't this make all black holes effectively the same size?  Every time I have heard of super massive black holes it seems as if they are described to be different from ordinary black holes.

From my understanding, super massive black holes are named such because they're "super massive"; as in: bigger than "regular" black holes. Their density may or may not be higher. Think of something like wood. Wood floats, correct? It doesn't matter if you have one kilo of wood or one billion kilos; wood will always float because it is less dense than water. Likewise, you could pump an air bubble equal to the mass of Jupiter into our oceans (if it were possible), and all the air would still burst out of the water, due to its density.

D = M/V.

For D to be infinite, V would be an infinitely small number (or zero, correct?)

How can something have mass but take up zero volume?

Therein lies the problem with infinities in physics (or any branch of anything, really, that doesn't use infinity conceptually). Such a thing is not possible.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2014, 11:45:54 AM »
If I understand the theories correctly, everything "began" at the Big Bang, including time and space.

There was "nothing" before this.

---

On the flip side, if I understand the theories of Black Holes correctly, Einstein's law breaks down at the center of a black hole.

Time and space cease to exist at the center of a black hole.   It's "nothing" mathematically.

It's a singularity... a singular point of infinite gravity, etc.

(forgive me for not fully grasping the math of this but, I think I'm not far off here)

---

Could it be possible that the math calculating the origin of our universe traces it back to the point of a super massive black hole that finally "exploded"?   Maybe exploded isn't the right word but is it possible that a black hole can have a breaking point that is much longer than it takes for a star to reach it's breaking point?

We know that stars can explode after huge amounts of time when their reaction starts to create iron.

Why couldn't there be places in the universe where black holes are "exploding" all the time?   They're just so few and far between based on what we can observe that we can only see "ours"

At one point, we thought our sun was the only sun.
At one point, we thought our galaxy was the only galaxy.
Right now, we think our universe is the only universe.

I don't get the math of it exactly but it seems like there's no top or bottom level for size... there's just a level that we can't see past.  (sub atomic particles in one direction, the big bang in the other)

Obviously this is speculation but, is there any reason why it wouldn't be possible?

The short answer is no, our universe is not a black hole which exploded.

The problem is entropy, as with other ideas which try to find a cause for the universe.
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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2014, 11:54:35 AM »
I guess the question the force of gravity in a small black hole is infinite, I would think that there would be no such thing as a large black hole.  How do you have greater than infinite.  Adding mass to a black hole to increase the already infinite pull of gravity would appear to be impossible.  Shouldn't this make all black holes effectively the same size?  Every time I have heard of super massive black holes it seems as if they are described to be different from ordinary black holes.

A simple way to understand black holes which will clear up this misconception about infinite gravity.

A black hole has the same gravity as any other object with the same mass. The difference is it is more concentrated at the center, so don't get too close.
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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2014, 12:36:58 PM »
The center of black holes is described by scientists on TV shows for dumb people like me as a place where our understanding of physics breaks down.

The beginning of the universe is sort of the same... prior to the big bang, there was what?  Infinite nothing?

Of all the theories I can sort of begin to understand, the ones that make most sense to me are that in some sense or other the universe "bubbles" collide/collapse and create new "big bangs".    It makes more sense to think that there "always has been something" in some form and that big bangs are just a larger, rarer event like supernovas or black holes, but bigger/different.

Here's what I mean:
Quote
Brian Greene's nine types

American theoretical physicist and string theorist Brian Greene discussed nine types of parallel universes:[29]

Quilted
    The quilted multiverse works only in an infinite universe. With an infinite amount of space, every possible event will occur an infinite number of times. However, the speed of light prevents us from being aware of these other identical areas.
Inflationary
    The inflationary multiverse is composed of various pockets where inflation fields collapse and form new universes.
Brane
    The brane multiverse follows from M-theory and states that each universe is a 3-dimensional brane that exists with many others. Particles are bound to their respective branes except for gravity.
Cyclic
    The cyclic multiverse has multiple branes (each a universe) that collided, causing Big Bangs. The universes bounce back and pass through time, until they are pulled back together and again collide, destroying the old contents and creating them anew.
Landscape
    The landscape multiverse relies on string theory's Calabi–Yau shapes. Quantum fluctuations drop the shapes to a lower energy level, creating a pocket with a different set of laws from the surrounding space.
Quantum
    The quantum multiverse creates a new universe when a diversion in events occurs, as in the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics.
Holographic
    The holographic multiverse is derived from the theory that the surface area of a space can simulate the volume of the region.
Simulated
    The simulated multiverse exists on complex computer systems that simulate entire universes.
Ultimate
    The ultimate multiverse contains every mathematically possible universe under different laws of physics.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2014, 02:02:55 PM »
No, YRM, it is extremely unlikely that a black hole was before our universe.

The same questions arise; what made the black hole if nothing existed? Would the same laws apply to that black hole as the ones we observe today (indirectly, of course)?

And as far as I know, black holes don't "explode"; they simply evaporate, as One already pointed it, through Hawkings Radiation.
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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 05:57:57 PM »
I guess I'm saying that I don't believe "nothing existed"... I think one of those theories that I posted make more sense than "nothing".

Like the cyclic or inflationary theory?
Quote
The inflationary multiverse is composed of various pockets where inflation fields collapse and form new universes.

The cyclic multiverse has multiple branes (each a universe) that collided, causing Big Bangs. The universes bounce back and pass through time, until they are pulled back together and again collide, destroying the old contents and creating them anew.

It isn't that there was "nothing" before the big bang but rather the event destroyed whatever evidence there was for anything else.   To our math, it would look like nothing, but, we simply "can't see past it".

When you look into the universe, there's not just one of "anything" so why would there just be one big bang?   I agree that we can't test this or see past it.   The points about black holes are well taken, I was trying to illustrate that there are things which cause our equations to break down and appear to be "nothing".

If Einstein is correct and a black hole is pushing so far into space time as to possibly cause a tear in space time... does something happen to what moves through that tear?  Is it just gone or compressed?

Is it correct to say that we're in conjecture territory or is there an answer to the above that the scientific community agree on?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 06:31:41 PM »
But why should we assume something happens inside a blackhole?

All it is, is a huge concentration of gravity, where once something lands, it becomes a part of the black hole and adds to its mass. It's mass slowly evaporates through Hawkings Radiation. That's it. Lots of gravity. Why should it "tear" space and be a doorway to something else? That makes zero sense.

If Space itself is where everything resides, what is this "lack of space"-the tear- made of? Think of it like this:

I have a slice of cheese. The cheese is where everything exists; on its surface, and inside it, in little cracks and what nots.

Now, imagine Swiss cheese, the one with holes, if everything exists on the cheese itself, what "exists" in the hole? How could something exist where existence can't happen?

Now the Blackhole. if there is spot where the cheese is "infinity" compressed, how could that even lead to something other than a surface where nothing leaves? (except Hawkings Radiation.)
Now of course I'm speculating, but I don't see a reason to believe that tearing space time would lead to a random occurance.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 06:33:27 PM by Defiance »
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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 06:35:49 PM »
I know what you're saying.  It's interesting stuff.   There are scientists who think that there are multiple universes or dimensions, and, are arguing about what does go on in the center of a black hole.  As you said, maybe it's just super dense and that's it.

I don't really understand the complexities of the theories I listed there, so, I won't pretend like I have the answers, just discussing it.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 06:41:00 PM »
I know what you're saying.  It's interesting stuff.   There are scientists who think that there are multiple universes or dimensions, and, are arguing about what does go on in the center of a black hole.  As you said, maybe it's just super dense and that's it.

I don't really understand the complexities of the theories I listed there, so, I won't pretend like I have the answers, just discussing it.
Nah, some know what they're talking about, just that I, a 16 year old high schooler, isn't quite on par with PhD Physicists.

And if anyone can correct my above points, that'd be great, too.
"God is just and fair"
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*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Big Bang - Black Holes
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2014, 07:23:23 PM »
I guess I'm saying that I don't believe "nothing existed"... I think one of those theories that I posted make more sense than "nothing".

Like the cyclic or inflationary theory?
Quote
The inflationary multiverse is composed of various pockets where inflation fields collapse and form new universes.

The cyclic multiverse has multiple branes (each a universe) that collided, causing Big Bangs. The universes bounce back and pass through time, until they are pulled back together and again collide, destroying the old contents and creating them anew.

It isn't that there was "nothing" before the big bang but rather the event destroyed whatever evidence there was for anything else.   To our math, it would look like nothing, but, we simply "can't see past it".

When you look into the universe, there's not just one of "anything" so why would there just be one big bang?   I agree that we can't test this or see past it.   The points about black holes are well taken, I was trying to illustrate that there are things which cause our equations to break down and appear to be "nothing".

If Einstein is correct and a black hole is pushing so far into space time as to possibly cause a tear in space time... does something happen to what moves through that tear?  Is it just gone or compressed?

Is it correct to say that we're in conjecture territory or is there an answer to the above that the scientific community agree on?

The universe always works the way you least expect.

The idea that our universe began from nothing actually produces a multiverse from nothing.

The cyclic universe has a lot of problems, which more or less rule it out. Some of the other multiverse ideas actually contradict each other about the way our known universe works with black holes.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 07:28:39 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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