Author Topic: Homosexuality is a choice?  (Read 821 times)

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Homosexuality is a choice?
« on: May 27, 2014, 08:23:14 PM »
Below is an exchange with Skeptic regarding homosexuality.  Per my promise, I am starting a new thread.  I ask that everyone behave in a civil way. 


Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
Quote from: OldChurchGuy on May 23, 2014, 12:14:25 PM

OY! (as my Jewish cousin says).  I am laughing with the banter and do not wish it to stop.  Still, it would be nice to get back on topic if possible. 

Note to Skeptic54768:  Good to see you posting.  Going back to a question directed to you on another thread, do you think homosexuality is a choice?

Contradicting myself with a question to Skeptic54768 which, when answered, will definitely derail this discussion (I promise to make it a separate thread when answered) I remain,

OldChurchGuy

Yes, homosexuality is a choice. They have never found a "gay gene" in the same way they know what makes people have different skin colors. So when people say "being gay is like being white" it is dishonest. We know what causes skin colors. There is nothing found in the human body that causes gayness.

So, it is a choice. Some people (such as myself) just choose not to do it because it is a sin. Just as some people choose to rob or murder, some choose to be sexually immoral.

Now here is where people will shout "You're a bigot!" but this is simply wrong. For example, it is also a sin to have heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Does this mean I am now bigoted towards men and women having sex? No, it does not.

It's a sin to have hetero sex outside of marriage and it is a sin to have homosexual sex. Both must be repented of and are equally disgusting.



Quote from: OldChurchGuy
Fair enough. 

As near as I can tell, homosexuals seem to be able to explain at what age they made this choice.  Presuming choice, and not genetics is the only answer, do you recall at what age you chose to be heterosexual? 

Ever curious,

OldChurchGuy

edit: spruced up quotes
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 08:04:37 AM by screwtape »
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2014, 08:40:58 PM »
That surprises me you would say it is a choice.  But I haven't heard there is a gay gene either.  I believe science leads towards hormonal - as in the balance between estrogen, testosterone and other things.   I don't have any kind of expertise to decide.  Either way I enjoy people enjoying who they are. The issue is tearing the Christian church apart though.
 This from wiki:
Quote
Cause
General
Main articles: Biology and sexual orientation and Environment and sexual orientation
Science has looked at the causes of homosexuality, and more generically the causes of human sexual orientation, with the general conclusions being related to biological and environmental factors. The biological factors that have been researched are genetic and hormonal, particularly during the fetal developmental period, that influence the resulting brain structure, and other characteristics such as handedness.[3][4] There are a wide range of environmental factors (sociological, psychological, or early uterine environment), and various biological factors, that may influence sexual orientation; though many researchers believe that it is caused by a complex interplay between nature and nurture, they favor biological models for the cause.[1][3]
The American Academy of Pediatrics stated in Pediatrics in 2004:
“   Sexual orientation probably is not determined by any one factor but by a combination of genetic, hormonal, and environmental influences. In recent decades, biologically based theories have been favored by experts. [...] Although there continues to be controversy and uncertainty as to the genesis of the variety of human sexual orientations, there is no scientific evidence that abnormal parenting, sexual abuse, or other adverse life events influence sexual orientation. Current knowledge suggests that sexual orientation is usually established during early childhood.[3][145]

The American Psychological Association, American Psychiatric Association, and National Association of Social Workers stated in 2006:
“   Currently, there is no scientific consensus about the specific factors that cause an individual to become heterosexual, homosexual, or bisexual—including possible biological, psychological, or social effects of the parents' sexual orientation. However, the available evidence indicates that the vast majority of lesbian and gay adults were raised by heterosexual parents and the vast majority of children raised by lesbian and gay parents eventually grow up to be heterosexual.[2]

The Royal College of Psychiatrists stated in 2007:
“   Despite almost a century of psychoanalytic and psychological speculation, there is no substantive evidence to support the suggestion that the nature of parenting or early childhood experiences play any role in the formation of a person's fundamental heterosexual or homosexual orientation. It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice.[4]

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Offline Nam

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2014, 08:43:27 PM »
^you don't read very well, do you?

-Nam
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2014, 09:03:40 PM »
I think there's a logical problem with being able to choose one's preferences. Without pre-existing preferences, on what basis does one choose? There pretty much has to be unchosen, pre-existing, imposed preferences to begin making choices at all. And if you're forced to make choices based on imposed preferences you had nothing to do with, how can you be held responsible for those choices?
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2014, 10:35:01 PM »
So, skep wants deny genetic research as it related to evolution, but wants to rely on genetic research to support his attitude about homosexuality.



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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2014, 10:56:51 PM »
If there is no homo gene which gene is the hetero gene ......choice?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2014, 12:20:23 AM »
OCG, do you also hold that genuine phobias are a choice?  After all, there is no known "arachnophobia gene" either.

Also, since homosexuality is purely a choice, does that mean that prior to your choice to be heterosexual, you were equally attracted to both men and women?
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2014, 03:29:04 AM »
Everyone, hold your horses for a moment.

The following:

Quote
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. They have never found a "gay gene" in the same way they know what makes people have different skin colors. So when people say "being gay is like being white" it is dishonest. We know what causes skin colors. There is nothing found in the human body that causes gayness.

So, it is a choice. Some people (such as myself) just choose not to do it because it is a sin. Just as some people choose to rob or murder, some choose to be sexually immoral.

Now here is where people will shout "You're a bigot!" but this is simply wrong. For example, it is also a sin to have heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Does this mean I am now bigoted towards men and women having sex? No, it does not.

It's a sin to have hetero sex outside of marriage and it is a sin to have homosexual sex. Both must be repented of and are equally disgusting.


...is a quote from Skeptic, not OCG's opinion. He simply misplaced the quote function.

Also, I agree with schnozzola in that prenatal hormonal levels do appear to play a part in determining sexual orientation.

eh! is also correct in that there is no "straight" gene.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 03:32:58 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2014, 03:47:35 AM »
The straight gene is just down and to the left of. the Ghandi neuron.



seriously who gives a shit who fuks who amongst consenting adults and why should they give a shit maybe someone from bend over baptist can say.
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2014, 05:49:22 AM »
Dutch neurologist Dick Swaab found a correlation between hypothalamus size and sexual orientation ... The larger the hypothalamus, the more likely one is to be gay. Whether this difference in size is due to genetics or environment makes little difference. People are born with brains already preprogrammed for a certain sexual preference. As such, gays are no more making a choice than straights are.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2014, 09:05:31 AM »
Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. They have never found a "gay gene" in the same way they know what makes people have different skin colors.

Allergies are not genetic, but not a choice.  Much of your personality is not genetic and is not something under your control.  And they have "never" found a "cake gene" that makes people love cake, yet that is also not a choice.[1]  So there are plenty of other possible causes that are not genetic, but are also not choices.

What we know is that people have preferences which they cannot change.  How they got them is besides the point.  The only thing they seem to have a choice about is whether to indulge in their preferences.  But sexuality is not like eating cake.  It is a much bigger part of our humanity. Telling someone to eschew their sexuality is like telling them to eschew breathing. 


Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
So when people say "being gay is like being white" it is dishonest.

I think it could be argued that by only looking at genetics as a cause you are being dishonest.  Or did you honestly overlook other possibilities?  I doubt it.  You need homosexuality to be a choice.  Because if it is not, then your religious beliefs are unfair and unjust. 

You could prove me wrong by saying something like, "oh wow, I didn't even think about that.  I guess teh gey might not be a choice afterall."  But if I were a betting man...


Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
There is nothing found in the human body that causes gayness.

Something causes it.  And since we are biological things, it is reasonable to think that the cause is found somewhere in the body, whether it is the DNA or something else.  Where else would the cause be found?  Our souls?  If so, then it's god's problem.

Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
Some people (such as myself) just choose not to do it because it is a sin.

You are saying you are attracted to other men, yes?  And that the only thing holding you back from having sex (and an amorous relationship) with another man is your religious belief, yes?  Pardon me for saying so, but I do not buy it. 

I do not have gay relationships because I am not attracted to men.  I could choose to have sex with a man, but I would not want to.  And if I tried, I believe it would not be a happy or fulfilling experience for me.  Consideration for sin plays no part in it. 

So when I hear people like you say things like that, I can only come to two conclusions.  You are either talking out of your ass or you are a self-loathing closet homosexual.  If it is the former, you should stop doing that.  You know, "thou shalt not bear false witness" and all.  If it is the latter, I truly feel bad for you.  I hope you can break free from your oppressive religious beliefs and finally experience the love you want.


Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
Just as some people choose to rob or murder, some choose to be sexually immoral.

Now here is where people will shout "You're a bigot!" but this is simply wrong.

No.  It's not wrong.  You hold bigoted views.  You say bigoted things.  However you attemot justify them, it does not change the fact that you are still a bigot.


Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM
It's a sin to have hetero sex outside of marriage and it is a sin to have homosexual sex.

They are categorically different.



 1. you say "never" as if it will never be found either.  It may be that it is not genetic, but that does not mean we won't be surprised and find out it is.
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2014, 09:11:07 AM »
Everyone, hold your horses for a moment.

The following:

Quote
Yes, homosexuality is a choice. They have never found a "gay gene" in the same way they know what makes people have different skin colors. So when people say "being gay is like being white" it is dishonest. We know what causes skin colors. There is nothing found in the human body that causes gayness.

So, it is a choice. Some people (such as myself) just choose not to do it because it is a sin. Just as some people choose to rob or murder, some choose to be sexually immoral.

Now here is where people will shout "You're a bigot!" but this is simply wrong. For example, it is also a sin to have heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Does this mean I am now bigoted towards men and women having sex? No, it does not.

It's a sin to have hetero sex outside of marriage and it is a sin to have homosexual sex. Both must be repented of and are equally disgusting.


...is a quote from Skeptic, not OCG's opinion. He simply misplaced the quote function.

Also, I agree with schnozzola in that prenatal hormonal levels do appear to play a part in determining sexual orientation.

eh! is also correct in that there is no "straight" gene.

Why do you think I asked if schnozzola could read? OCG messed up the quoting but I understood him because I understand OCG.

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2014, 09:19:42 AM »
Is homosexual sex within a marriage (performed at a church) sinful?

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2014, 09:30:04 AM »
Is homosexual sex within a marriage (performed at a church) sinful?

If it's gay, it's a sin.

Also, kudos to Nam and Disciple of Sagan for noticing that it was not OldChurchGuy who said the retardedness expressed by apparent homosexual skeptic54768.

skeptic54768, I dated a homosexual theist once. I loved (and still love) him very much. He was suicidal when I met him, but then I showered him with affection. He realized that he had no reason to be depressed. He didn't reject the Bible, as we didn't discuss it (as our religious views differ, we agreed to not talk about it) aside from one occasion where I asked him about having sex (eventually), but he did find a small (large) loophole. The Bible does not condemn homosexual relationships. It only condemns homosexual intercourse. And, as all psychologically grown-up people know, a relationship doesn't necessarily need to involve sex at any given point. Sure, it's fun (or so I hear), but that doesn't mean you have to do it. Think about that.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2014, 10:09:48 AM »
^most heterosexual marriages are like that, or so I hear.

;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #15 on: May 28, 2014, 10:10:38 AM »
^most heterosexual marriages are like that, or so I hear.

;)

That was quick. :P

-Nam

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2014, 10:37:47 AM »
Quote from: skeptic54768 on May 24, 2014, 11:25:07 AM

Yes, homosexuality is a choice. They have never found a "gay gene" in the same way they know what makes people have different skin colors. So when people say "being gay is like being white" it is dishonest. We know what causes skin colors. There is nothing found in the human body that causes gayness.

So, it is a choice. Some people (such as myself) just choose not to do it because it is a sin. Just as some people choose to rob or murder, some choose to be sexually immoral.

Now here is where people will shout "You're a bigot!" but this is simply wrong. For example, it is also a sin to have heterosexual sex outside of marriage. Does this mean I am now bigoted towards men and women having sex? No, it does not.

It's a sin to have hetero sex outside of marriage and it is a sin to have homosexual sex. Both must be repented of and are equally disgusting.

I am asking God for patience right now.  You sow seeds of hate.  Don't tell me God is Love and then tell me God hates.  The two statements zero each other out and God is nothing, according to you.  Don't tell me God loves me but will send me to hell.

I am living breathing proof that God accepts gays just the way we are.  Pardon me if I trust my blessings over your prejudice and Moses's.  Jesus says that God loves us more than our earthly fathers.  My father loved me despite my gayness.  You are calling Jesus a liar.

Your belief in a cruel God makes you a cruel man and part of the problem.  For the love of God man, please check your heart.  Spread the "good news" of love and leave the hate in 6000 BC.

Religion is sooooooooooooooooo BAD.



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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2014, 10:54:30 AM »
Why do you think I asked if schnozzola could read? OCG messed up the quoting but I understood him because I understand OCG.

I know, but then Azdgari made the same mistake after you had posted, so I thought it needed to be said again.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2014, 11:10:02 AM »
The only part of sexual attraction that is any kind of a choice is whether we act on it or not.  However, that does not itself justify the condemnation of those who do act on it, because so much of who we are is bound up in sexuality (if it were otherwise, our species would have died out long ago).  And while it's true that we do have social rules that govern what sexual attractions it's okay to act on as well as how we pursue them, that also does not necessarily justify the condemnation of those who break those rules, because that does not take into account why those rules are in place.

For example, if a rule is only because someone powerful disapproves of acting on a particular kind of sexual attraction, then it is not justified, because personal dislike of something is not sufficient reason to forbid it for everyone.  Whereas if a rule is to prevent someone from being harmed as a result, then it is justified, because unnecessary harm should always be minimized.  Note that the latter does not include imagined harm.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2014, 11:14:27 AM »
It only condemns homosexual intercourse.

Dr X used to argue that it just condemns a particular position.  "As with a woman".
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2014, 11:18:35 AM »
It only condemns homosexual intercourse.

Dr X used to argue that it just condemns a particular position.  "As with a woman".

That too, I guess. I didn't think about that at the time, but I doubt he'd accept it.
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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2014, 06:05:50 PM »
People are blowing this way out of proportion.

Allow me to clarify my position:

If you are attracted then men, then just don't have sex with them. God will not punish you if you admit you are attracted to the same sex. He will punish you if you  engage in the act of same-sex sex. Homosexuality is a way of lashing out at God because you view yourself as unworthy of God, so you engage in acts that make Him mad.
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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #22 on: May 29, 2014, 07:03:00 AM »
Why do you think I asked if schnozzola could read? OCG messed up the quoting but I understood him because I understand OCG.

I know, but then Azdgari made the same mistake after you had posted, so I thought it needed to be said again.

For the record, had I not specifically remembered who said what from the original posts, it might have thrown me a little bit as well. Or I might have worked it out. But it's always good to clarify where there might be confusion in any case.

As far as the actual question, I'd tend to give some people the benefit if the doubt. I guess, when they claim it is a choice, only because I do believe that sexual attraction can vary over a wide continuum between straight and gay. And the person who claims they made the "choice" to be straight may not actually be a gay homophobe in denial, but rather just a person who has experienced twinges of attraction to the same sex and found them reasonably easy to shrug off in favor of following the "norm", especially when steeped in their religion's stance on the matter.

Others, of course, may just be spouting rhetoric based in fear and bigotry. But it could be hard to tell who is who just on the face of it.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #23 on: May 29, 2014, 07:58:40 AM »
People are blowing this way out of proportion.

I really don't think anyone is.

Allow me to clarify my position:

If you are attracted then men, then just don't have sex with them.

Easy for you to say.

Homosexuality is a way of lashing out at God because you view yourself as unworthy of God, so you engage in acts that make Him mad.

?  wtf?  You know this...how?  Why is it that and not an expression of human sexuality and personal preferences? 

Your argument is bizarre.
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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #24 on: May 29, 2014, 08:03:10 AM »
Homosexuality is a way of lashing out at God because you view yourself as unworthy of God, so you engage in acts that make Him mad.

?  wtf?  You know this...how?  Why is it that and not an expression of human sexuality and personal preferences? 

Your argument is bizarre.


screwtape, homophobes, according to studies, tend to be homosexual themselves, so I believe skeptic54768 is speaking from personal experience.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #25 on: May 29, 2014, 11:15:13 AM »
screwtape, homophobes, according to studies, tend to be homosexual themselves, so I believe skeptic54768 is speaking from personal experience.

oh, yeah, I know.  He's totally gay.  I'm just trying to get him to fess up about it.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #26 on: May 29, 2014, 11:17:33 AM »
screwtape, homophobes, according to studies, tend to be homosexual themselves, so I believe skeptic54768 is speaking from personal experience.
I'm just trying to get him to fess up about it.

Good luck with that, he's so far in the closet he's in Narnia

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #27 on: May 29, 2014, 11:44:13 AM »
. Homosexuality is a way of lashing out at God because you view yourself as unworthy of God, so you engage in acts that make Him mad.

It's not often I find myself in a state of full-blown bitch mode, but HOW THE FUCK DARE YOU??

Not only is your premise completely uneducated and asinine, you have no fucking clue as to what my motives are when I make love... that's right, MAKE LOVE to my girlfriend. Does that one remaining functional brain cell in your head really think that when I make love to my girlfriend of 16 years that what is going through my head is "Boy, I'm really flipping the finger at God!"??

Go ahead and try to explain, Brainiac, how I can be "mad" at a myth?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Nam

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Re: Homosexuality is a choice?
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2014, 04:03:18 PM »
Um...nevermind. Pervy thought. Go back to yelling...

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.