Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 60860 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #319 on: June 25, 2014, 05:37:44 PM »
What's next for this clown....exorcisms?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #320 on: June 25, 2014, 05:40:06 PM »
Hmm.. Perhaps you might want to rethink the latter?
http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1113177094/higgs-boson-discovery-new-evidence-062414/
What? you mean that you never heard of miracles still occurring today? That some more "proof" of the existence of miracles are discovered everyday!?
I am saying in analogy : Miracle = Higgs Boson.
Proof of Higgs Boson = Proof of miracles. (I don't know how to properly say that in English, I want to make sure that there is no ambiguity miracles and higgs bosons are 2 completely different things who share similar attributes.)
you have yet to provide a single piece of evidence for your "miracles"
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #321 on: June 25, 2014, 05:40:44 PM »
I don't think an argument is lost when someone ask the opposite party about their view on the subject.
The problem is, what you're actually asking is what it would take for me to accept that it was a miracle.  That's why I said you've effectively lost the argument; you have no criteria which would actually convince a skeptic such as myself that your 'miracles' are any such things.

Quote from: Lukvance
I believe that nothing will convince you that a miracle is God's action as long as you are not involved in one.
With all due respect, even if I was directly involved, I still would not be convinced, for the simple reason that "I don't know how it happened" does not translate to "God did it".  Which is what your argument boils down to.  Don't get me wrong, I'm happy for the people who do heal at Lourdes or elsewhere, but I'm not willing to simply assume that those are divine healings when the criteria that you've stated and restated simply boils down to "scientists don't know, so we asked a priest, who said it was God".  I'm not Catholic, so I don't accept the authority of your priests to declare such a thing, and therefore your method can never satisfy me.  Frankly, I don't believe any human can identify whether something was a divine miracle simply by praying, because there's no way to tell if the god that granted it is actually answering or not.

Quote from: Lukvance
I know of things that will convince me that miracles are not God's actions in this world. (like if the consequences of said miracle are "bad")
Why do you think that a being opposed to your god would do obviously bad things?  Frankly, if it were sneaky enough, it would do good things as a lure, such as by making people think that if they traveled to a certain place, they might get healed, and then making the rate of healings so low that for the vast majority of people who go there, it's largely a waste of time and resources.  There would be no hook, no 'evil' involved; simply tricking people into wasting their time and money going there would be more than sufficient.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Emily

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #322 on: June 25, 2014, 05:41:05 PM »
It will simply not be a miracle anymore. Until then, it is. This is how the scientific method works too. It proves something is true until proven otherwise.

SO, you are saying a "miracle" wont be considered a miracle anymore when it's proven to be caused through more realistic means? That is a very odd way to look at miracles. What is a miracle now wont be a miracle in 10 years once it's proven otherwise. That's a bit of a cop-out answer for explaining what is and what is not a miracle, IMO. Very, very dishonest.

So, then. In your view everything was at one point a miracle, because it wasn't proven any other way. That includes childbirth, why the Earth orbits the Sun, why Earth is able to have liquid water and is protected by the atmosphere.

Science seeks answers. Your POV seeks "proof" to God's existence in what cannot currently be explained in any other way through science, but in time and as science advances that "proof" for God's existence, through a "miracle", is no longer "proof" because it's no longer a "miracle", and is only an example of how the universe operates as if there is no God involved.

Where does it end, Luk? Where will you simply stop attributing something as a miracle to something that just cannot be explained yet?
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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #323 on: June 25, 2014, 05:47:29 PM »
Then (as I've noted before) you are drawing a false analogy. We have lots of examples of people moving trees. And we can demonstrate them now. WE DO NOT have any examples of alleged deities doing things.
We have miracles. Lots of them.

Your saying it is so doesn't make it so. Prove it. In the exact same way as I can demonstrate someone moving a true - demonstrate a "miracle". Otherwise, you are drawing a false analogy and your argument is invalid.

Quote
What you have is conjecture (i.e. claims) and those are not the same. So please correct the fallacy. You cannot compare the two since (as I noted before) you do not have a "god" to present right now to anyone.
Alright you think it is conjecture. Tell me how this is conjecture and how the finding of the Higgs Boson isn't conjecture?

Where have I, at any time, made ANY claims about the Higgs-Boson? I haven't! So stop trying to change the subject. I haven't claimed to know anything about that subject and don't pretend to (like you are trying to pretend to 'know' when a "miracle" has occurred). But what you seem to be implying is that if science discovers something that you cannot readily see right now then it must be just the same thing as proclaiming a miracle has occurred. But that is another false analogy (a logical fallacy) because scientific explanations have explanatory power, predictive power, the capability of being falsified, and independent verification. You do not have this with your alleged "miracles". You have CLAIMS, by people with a vested interest in confirmation bias. The two methods are nothing alike.

Once again, I have challenged you to provide a reliable method for us to independently determine the difference between an alleged "miracle" and a non-miracle. And so far you have not done it. All you've done is make yet another claim saying, "Well, if science can't explain it then it must be a miracle." But that doesn't fly as a sufficient answer because it is an argument from ignorance fallacy. Just because science may or may not have an explanation (currently) does not in any way mean that YOUR theological ASSUMPTION wins by default. Anyone from any religion can try that. It fails for them just as it fails for you. The ancients tried your tactic with Zeus, saying that lightening and thunder must be from the gods. But now we have science that explains (in detail) how and why there is lightening and thunder, and it explains the mechanisms of weather and how those things come about (i.e. - the ancients were wrong in their arguments from ignorance just as you are). Again, when you don't know something you should admit it, instead of arrogantly ASSERTING that your alleged "god" did it.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 05:52:23 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #324 on: June 25, 2014, 05:50:19 PM »
Lukvance, you did not address how you (or anyone) can tell if a hand was healed by your god, or by a shy but powerful alien being who secretly heals one person of every 10 million who visit Lourdes.

Remember, the SBPA wants to remain secret because she is shy. She can do healings of paralyzed hands because she is powerful. The SBPA tells the investigating priest that it was his god who healed the hand, but it is really her. Any court proceeding or devil's advocate involved would also be controlled by her. She can make people feel like it was their god and not her who healed the hand. (But it was really her.)

How could anyone rule out the SBPA in favor of their god? What steps would they take?  How would anyone tell the difference? Why would you, Lukvance, assume that it was your god and not an SBPA?

My main point here is that if you do not know how the hand was healed, you cannot then assume you know how or who or what healed the hand! All you can say in truth is what the scientists say: The hand was healed and we do not know how it happened.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #325 on: June 25, 2014, 05:58:48 PM »
Now you're just being dishonest because YOU DO in fact believe these cases are "miracles". Yet you are immediately switching to using fallacious arguments (in this case the fallacy of Argument from Authority) when you have not demonstrated that these people are "authorities" on "miracles". It is just hear-say all the way down. If you think one (or more) of these alleged cases as "a miracle" then please demonstrate the actual evidence and argument that was presented to these alleged "judges" by which they somehow determined an actual "miracle" occurred. I will address your false analogy in the next post.
I don't understand.
Maybe the following video will help you in your quest of knowledge :

You can also buy this scientist book to further know about miracles and science.
You're worth more than my time

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #326 on: June 25, 2014, 06:15:29 PM »
There are scientists and doctors who ARE theists believe it or not Luk. If a scientist is also a theists,they have their mind already leaning to the side of miracle and away from any science that exists. This video is clearly nothing more than propaganda.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2014, 06:20:11 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #327 on: June 25, 2014, 06:19:39 PM »
Lukvance, you did not address how you (or anyone) can tell if a hand was healed by your god, or by a shy but powerful alien being who secretly heals one person of every 10 million who visit Lourdes.

Remember, the SBPA wants to remain secret because she is shy. She can do healings of paralyzed hands because she is powerful. The SBPA tells the investigating priest that it was his god who healed the hand, but it is really her. Any court proceeding or devil's advocate involved would also be controlled by her. She can make people feel like it was their god and not her who healed the hand. (But it was really her.)

How could anyone rule out the SBPA in favor of their god? What steps would they take?  How would anyone tell the difference? Why would you, Lukvance, assume that it was your god and not an SBPA?

My main point here is that if you do not know how the hand was healed, you cannot then assume you know how or who or what healed the hand! All you can say in truth is what the scientists say: The hand was healed and we do not know how it happened.
It's like looking at a picture of two crashed cars that are utterly destroyed and claiming its a miracle everybody survived,without having any other knowledge of the accident scene
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #328 on: June 25, 2014, 06:22:04 PM »
*I* know how. "My" answers to these question are the one you are trying to argue with.
Your belief is not the same thing as actual knowledge, and you need to stop pretending otherwise, especially when its so evident that you really don't know.  If you had information that could give you actual knowledge rather than feeding your belief, you wouldn't have had to waste time arguing in favor of testimony and semantics.  You could simply have presented the information, explained where you got it from, and other people could have verified it on their own.

Quote from: Lukvance
Miracle are not unnatural.
I want a straight answer from you.  Are these miracles of yours natural events, or are they not natural events?

If your miracles are natural events, then the criteria that the Catholic church uses for determining whether a healing at Lourdes is a miracle is just plain wrong, because it excludes things that scientists can explain.  And if your miracles are not natural events, then they are by definition unnatural (meaning, something that wouldn't happen naturally).

Quote from: Lukvance
HOW exactly do you expect him to MAKE IT KNOWN? Will it change your belief?
Since you refrained from accepting my challenge to pray to your god to find out what my criteria for something being a true miracle was, I am under no obligation to tell you anything.  If you want to know what my criteria for considering something a miracle is, or how I expect your god to make it known that he's the cause of something, you can pray to him to find out.

Quote from: Lukvance
There is a jury and a trial for each miracle. When the verdict is out the priest of the place where the miracle occurred make the verdict public.
So humans get to decide whether something is a miracle or not?  Alright, then I am stating that every single event declared a 'miracle' by the Catholic church is in fact an unexplained natural event with no known cause, which said church believes is a miracle with nothing in the way of actual evidence.  This will of course not change the opinions of yourself or other Catholics, nor do I expect it to, but that is my position, and you will need actual evidence to move me from it.

Quote from: Lukvance
It will simply not be a miracle anymore. Until then, it is. This is how the scientific method works too. It proves something is true until proven otherwise.
No, science doesn't prove that things are true.  Science isn't about proving things true in the first place; it's about showing that they aren't false.  For example, the conclusion that the sun revolved around Earth was not proved false until Copernicus was able to connect all the observations that had been made since and connected the dots.  Yet geocentrism was a properly scientific conclusion for its time.  The conclusion that the body was regulated by four 'humors' was not proved false until scientists such as William Harvey and Otto Loewi showed that it was actually chemicals in the blood called hormones that did this, and that the four colored 'humors' were actually components of the blood.  Yet the theory of humors was also a properly scientific conclusion for its time.

That is the problem with these 'miracles' of yours.  They are not based on showing what actually causes them; they are based on arbitrarily deciding that they must be caused by your god because we don't know for sure what caused them.  Are you finally starting to see the reason why, for all their pretensions of being scientific, these investigations that the Catholic church undertakes fundamentally don't prove anything?  The most they can prove is that we don't know what caused those healings.

I mean, do you really want to use a discipline which is fundamentally about showing that the latest and greatest attempt to explain something is in fact wrong to show that your beliefs about your god are in fact right?
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #329 on: June 25, 2014, 06:29:46 PM »
The problem is, what you're actually asking is what it would take for me to accept that it was a miracle.  That's why I said you've effectively lost the argument; you have no criteria which would actually convince a skeptic such as myself that your 'miracles' are any such things.
I have arguments. I agree with you that someone who do not want to be convinced won't ever be convinced. Heck there are people who think that they have super powers and even if you put them to the test and they fail, they still think that they have super powers.
I could even tell you that there is no way you could convince me that the Higgs Boson exist. Or that we walked on the moon. I just have to say "your proof is not enough"

Quote
With all due respect, even if I was directly involved, I still would not be convinced
Most miracles (actions of God in the world) are spiritual ones.
Quote
  the criteria that you've stated and restated simply boils down to "scientists don't know, so we asked a priest, who said it was God"
That is not what I stated. Only what you guys want me to state so you can prove me wrong.
Listen, the Higgs boson was theorized and it is when and only when every other possibilities where excluded that they declared that what they measured was the higgs boson.

Quote
Why do you think that a being opposed to your god would do obviously bad things?
It is because God is good and to be opposed to good cannot be something else than bad.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #330 on: June 25, 2014, 06:36:59 PM »
Some miracles that are still miracles even after 2000 years :
http://carm.org/questions/about-jesus/cant-all-jesus-miracles-be-explained-naturally

The nature of miracles :
"The term contrary to nature does not mean "unnatural" in the sense of producing discord and confusion. The forces of nature differ in power and are in constant interaction. This produces interferences and counteractions of forces. This is true of mechanical, chemical, and biological forces. So, also, at every moment of the day I interfere with and counteract natural forces about me. I study the properties of natural forces with a view to obtain conscious control by intelligent counteractions of one force against another. Intelligent counteraction marks progress in chemistry, in physics — e.g., steam locomotion, aviation — and in the prescriptions of the physician. Man controls nature, nay, can live only by the counteraction of natural forces. Though all this goes on around us, we never speak of natural forces violated. These forces are still working after their kind, and no force is destroyed, nor is any law broken, nor does confusion result. The introduction of human will may bring about a displacement of the physical forces, but no infraction of physical processes." More on: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #331 on: June 25, 2014, 06:52:09 PM »
We do not need your definition,we ask for proof,please provide proof.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #332 on: June 25, 2014, 06:56:33 PM »
First off you need to prove Jesus is real.....All we have are religions hijacking each others deities  with their own messiahs. Each evolution trying to out-do the last.  My prophet and my messiah are BETTER than yours.
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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #333 on: June 25, 2014, 07:19:46 PM »
Luk, I watched the video you posted in it's entirety. The only thing it "helped" me with was to reinforce the knowledge that superstitious people (such as yourself) attempt to use the logical fallacy of The Argument from Ignorance in order to justify your belief that unexplained things are "miracles" (when you haven't demonstrated that). Your mere claim that something is a miracle, or anyone else's for that matter, doesn't mean that it is. Correlation does not equal causation!! I really don't care how many times you try to just ASSERT that a miracle occurred. That is just your "Because I say so" fallacy of question begging. It is ad hoc and arbitrary. Again, when there is no sufficient explanation for something you should admit it - not just ASSERT that your personal theological assumption is the answer. Anyone (from any belief system) can do that and it fails for them just as it fails for you. When science doesn't have an answer for something you don't win by default! Just like Muslims, Mormons, or Hindus don't win when they try it. It's bullshit for all of you!


MY NOTES FROM THE VIDEO:


• "either everything or nothing is a miracle"


• incarnation of Jesus was a miracle


• there is a supernatural plain


• claims of being "enriched by holy spirit and miracles"


• people come to find "the deep sense of their lives" at St. Padre Pio church


• "There is a desert in our soul"


• "god always answers prayer"


• "a miracle is just a sign of the presence of god"


• a grandmother had a ruptured disk...prayed...and she was 'healed'. We deemed it a miracle.


• "we are called to be more faithful to him [God] like he is faithful to us"


• Dr. Jackalyn Duffin (studied 1400 miracle cases) "miracle researcher" for the Vatican  (she grew up Christian)


• cancer goes to remission, comes back in relapse, then goes to remission (possible miracle)


• she then goes from "possible miracle" to "miracle" in her work


• "It's not explicable by science" so god must have done it (its a miracle)


• "I believe there are lots of things we can't explain scientifically and I have no problem whatsoever calling them miracles..." Jackalyn Duffin


• "the church sees everything as a creation of god" (so everything is a 'miracle')


• At St. Padre Pio church (a father had colon cancer, people prayed, cancer went away and they deemed it a miracle) - they attributed it to "God"


• St Padre Pio is a "modern Saint"
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #334 on: June 25, 2014, 07:45:29 PM »
Hey, I just realized that we are way off the point, afuera del tema, can't remember how to say it in French, and we know how much it annoys Lukvance when we stray off the subject at hand.

The issue: is there a god that exists outside of human brains. Lukvance has gotten us all distracted with his miracles. But miracles are in no way evidence that a god exists outside of human brains! Miracles could be the result of actions performed by the god that exists inside of every human brain (well, every brain except Sarah Palin's).

This is due to the fact that in every possible miracle healing we have discussed here, there is no evidence of any external force whatsoever. There no reported sound, no increased measurement of temperature or excess of radiation detected, nothing visible emanates towards the part that is later found to be healed. The healing must therefore be coming from an internal healing force, an internal god. This internal god does not want to be detected because it might end up being exorcised, so it tells the priest inside his brain that it was the external Christian god that did the healing.

Since we do not know what healed the hand, the healed hand has to have been healed by the invisible secret god that lives only inside of the human brain. I have just proved it.[1]

Lukvance, over to you.
 1. has Lukvance figured out what falsification means yet? We will see if he gets it, or if his invisible secret god is still fooling him the way it fools the priest.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #335 on: June 25, 2014, 09:37:23 PM »
I have arguments. I agree with you that someone who do not want to be convinced won't ever be convinced. Heck there are people who think that they have super powers and even if you put them to the test and they fail, they still think that they have super powers.
That's the problem; your approach depends on people wanting to be convinced, not on providing sufficient evidence to demonstrate something beyond a reasonable doubt.

Quote from: Lukvance
I could even tell you that there is no way you could convince me that the Higgs Boson exist. Or that we walked on the moon. I just have to say "your proof is not enough"
However, that is not skepticism.  Skepticism is "I don't believe you just because you say so.  Show me the evidence."  What you're saying here is, "I don't believe you and I'll never believe you."

Quote from: Lukvance
Most miracles (actions of God in the world) are spiritual ones.
Which means what, precisely?  Right now it sounds like you're using that as an excuse to explain why scientists can't detect them, but that isn't a good excuse by any means.

Quote from: Lukvance
That is not what I stated. Only what you guys want me to state so you can prove me wrong.
It's a summary of what you said.  Furthermore, it is an accurate one.  To demonstrate this, let me pull a quote from one of your previous posts.

It's in prayer. The event is presented to the closest priest[1] who then contact his peers and together they pray to identify that it is indeed god interacting with the element, and not any other mystical, powerful, unnatural entity.
 1. http://en.lourdes-france.org/deepen/cures-and-miracles/recognition-of-a-miracle

Unfortunately, due to the forum deleting two weeks worth of posts, I cannot directly quote any of your statements about scientists being consulted to find out whether they have a scientific explanation or not, but you said it quite often.  In addition, as another page on that website states, "the committee decides by way of a vote whether to declare or refuse to confirm that this cure is inexplicable according to present scientific knowledge."  And as indicated by your statement just above, it is only after this confirmation is declared that it is considered as possibly miraculous and transmitted to a priest for 'identification' as a miracle granted by God.

I paraphrased your statement as "scientists don't know, so we asked a priest, who said it was God".  This is, in fact, an accurate summation; a committee of doctors/scientists confirms whether the cure is inexplicable (or unexplainable, more accurately) according to present scientific knowledge, and then it is passed to a priest who, with his peers, prays to see if it is actually God.

Quote from: Lukvance
Listen, the Higgs boson was theorized and it is when and only when every other possibilities where excluded that they declared that what they measured was the higgs boson.
No, that is not the case.  Scientists who were trying to find the Higgs boson were trying to match the observed properties of the particles generated by the LHC with the theorized Higgs boson.  It was categorically not a matter of comparing them to everything known and then concluding that if it didn't match any of them, it had to be a Higgs boson; that approach is pretty much the antithesis of science.  Science has never done that; it's been about observing and formulating explanations for phenomena, then testing the explanations to see if we can't find some way to disprove them.

Quote from: Lukvance
It is because God is good and to be opposed to good cannot be something else than bad.
This is a false dichotomy.  It is possible to be opposed to one person's idea of what good is without being evil.  Just so, it is possible to be opposed to what a god thinks of as good without being evil.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #336 on: June 25, 2014, 11:17:43 PM »
Quote from: Lukvance
It is because God is good and to be opposed to good cannot be something else than bad.
This is a false dichotomy.  It is possible to be opposed to one person's idea of what good is without being evil.  Just so, it is possible to be opposed to what a god thinks of as good without being evil.

Just this last part. Here is one example where two people can be opposed without either being evil: Many people think that corporal punishment is fine, and even give biblical reasons why it is actually a good thing to hit your kids. I am opposed to people hitting their kids as punishment. Both sides think they are right and are doing what is good. So, who is evil in this scenario?[1]
 1. I have written op-eds on it in response the idea that black people beating their children is just cultural and not abusive. No. It's abusive, harmful and unnecessary.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #337 on: June 28, 2014, 01:17:44 AM »
Hey, I just realized that we are way off the point, afuera del tema, can't remember how to say it in French, and we know how much it annoys Lukvance when we stray off the subject at hand.

The issue: is there a god that exists outside of human brains. Lukvance has gotten us all distracted with his miracles. But miracles are in no way evidence that a god exists outside of human brains! Miracles could be the result of actions performed by the god that exists inside of every human brain (well, every brain except Sarah Palin's).

This is due to the fact that in every possible miracle healing we have discussed here, there is no evidence of any external force whatsoever. There no reported sound, no increased measurement of temperature or excess of radiation detected, nothing visible emanates towards the part that is later found to be healed. The healing must therefore be coming from an internal healing force, an internal god. This internal god does not want to be detected because it might end up being exorcised, so it tells the priest inside his brain that it was the external Christian god that did the healing.

Since we do not know what healed the hand, the healed hand has to have been healed by the invisible secret god that lives only inside of the human brain. I have just proved it.[1]

Lukvance, over to you.
 1. has Lukvance figured out what falsification means yet? We will see if he gets it, or if his invisible secret god is still fooling him the way it fools the priest.
How would you think it would happen if it was really God who did it?
An external force? Coming from where?
A sound, a light? Coming from where?
Higher temperature or excess of radiation? Caused by what?
How would you think it would happen if it was really God who did it?
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #338 on: June 28, 2014, 01:49:34 AM »
That's the problem; your approach depends on people wanting to be convinced, not on providing sufficient evidence to demonstrate something beyond a reasonable doubt.
What if you are being unreasonable? What if every people who really looked into miracles tells you that you are unreasonable? Will you stop? I think not, I think you will still believe having super powers because it makes you stronger and without them you feel useless and alone.

Quote from: Lukvance
I could even tell you that there is no way you could convince me that the Higgs Boson exist. Or that we walked on the moon. I just have to say "your proof is not enough"
or I just have to say "your proof is not enough, show me real evidence!" again and again. No matter how much evidence you bring.

Quote
Quote from: Lukvance
Most miracles (actions of God in the world) are spiritual ones.
Which means what, precisely? 
Means that most people get spiritually healed/touched by God. Nothing in relation to scientists. Scientist got spiritually healed/touched by God too! (Albert Einstein, Max Planck, William Thomson Kelvin to only quote a few)

Quote
Quote from: Lukvance
Listen, the Higgs boson was theorized and it is when and only when every other possibilities where excluded that they declared that what they measured was the higgs boson.
No, that is not the case. Scientists who were trying to find the Higgs boson were trying to match the observed properties of the particles generated by the LHC with the theorized Higgs boson. 
People who were trying to find the "touch of God" were trying to match the observed properties of the events in Lourdes with the theorized "touch of God".
You see? Same thing than the Higgs. There is no way around it.

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It was categorically not a matter of comparing them to everything known and then concluding that if it didn't match any of them, it had to be a Higgs boson;
Really? How did you know it was not something else if you didn't compare it with everything known?

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it's been about observing and formulating explanations for phenomena, then testing the explanations to see if we can't find some way to disprove them.
It is just another way to say "compare it with everything known"

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It is possible to be opposed to one person's idea of what good is without being evil.  Just so, it is possible to be opposed to what a god thinks of as good without being evil.
Are you comparing yourself to God? if not, you cannot use yourself or any human for that matter to "prove" your point.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #339 on: June 28, 2014, 01:51:27 AM »
Why us luk asking us to explain how his imagined god works. how the fuk would an atheist know. luk should be explaining not asking. good deflection luk. will buy you some more pages here.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #340 on: June 28, 2014, 01:51:43 AM »
So, who is evil in this scenario?[1]
 1. I have written op-eds on it in response the idea that black people beating their children is just cultural and not abusive. No. It's abusive, harmful and unnecessary.
I don't know who's choice is evil in your scenario but IT IS CERTAINLY NOT GOD! :)
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #341 on: June 28, 2014, 01:55:49 AM »
Yep touching water at lourdes is the same standard of rigour as building the ATLpAS detector at CERN. luk is mentally ill.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #342 on: June 28, 2014, 09:01:20 AM »
What if you are being unreasonable? What if every people who really looked into miracles tells you that you are unreasonable? Will you stop? I think not, I think you will still believe having super powers because it makes you stronger and without them you feel useless and alone.
This is exactly how most of the people on this site feel about you.  No matter what anyone says, you basically come back with your opinion totally unchanged.  What you already believe is true no matter how unlikely people show it to be.  Most people are like that, though.  Even I tend to instinctively reject the conclusions of others.  The difference is, I've learned that other people might just know what they're talking about.  If what they say goes along with the available evidence, and what I say doesn't, then I don't keep holding to what I say just because I said it.

A line from one of my favorite songs goes, "the closer you get to something, the tougher it is to see it".  You are much too close to your belief to be able to look at it clearly, and you naturally assume that your belief is correct.  I am not close to it, and I don't go in assuming that it's correct, or not correct, so while that doesn't make my conclusions right, it does make them worth considering.

Quote from: Lukvance
or I just have to say "your proof is not enough, show me real evidence!" again and again. No matter how much evidence you bring.
You haven't brought any evidence that your god is responsible for the happenings at Lourdes, or that your god even exists, aside from the opinions of people who also believe in your god.  And those, to be blunt, are as suspect as yours is.  That's why I keep pushing for real evidence that unambiguously shows that your god exists.  I am not willing to take the word of a priest and his peers, especially when one of the criteria for being a priest is that they must believe in your god, and doubly so when their only 'evidence' to say that it is your god is what amounts to a group prayer session.

Quote from: Lukvance
Means that most people get spiritually healed/touched by God. Nothing in relation to scientists. Scientist got spiritually healed/touched by God too! (Albert Einstein, Max Planck, William Thomson Kelvin to only quote a few)
This isn't evidence of anything and it contradicts things like the 'miracles' at Lourdes; indeed, if I am reading you right, and the reason he does the miracles at Lourdes is so he can "spiritually heal/touch" people, that is a problem for your position here.  If he can do it in some cases, he can do it in all.

In any case, it still isn't clear just what you mean by this; please define precisely what you mean by 'spirit'.

Quote from: Lukvance
People who were trying to find the "touch of God" were trying to match the observed properties of the events in Lourdes with the theorized "touch of God".
You see? Same thing than the Higgs. There is no way around it.
There is no theory of "the touch of God", though.  This is nothing that anyone can actually confirm in any way - it is simply a belief held by some people which is amorphous enough that it can fit just about anything.  Like it or not, you cannot get around the fact that you have no scientific evidence to support your assertions here.  No amount of attempted equivocation by you will change that; in fact, every time you try, you are showing us that you are very much like that person who believes he has superpowers no matter what anyone tells him.  And equivocation is a form of lying.  Is lying to make your belief seem reasonable really the route you want to go?  I don't care particularly that you hold your belief, and I don't have any issues with you trying to use science to prove it, but I will not tolerate you attempting to change the standards of science, especially science that's already been established, so you can pretend that your beliefs are just as good as science.

Quote from: Lukvance
Really? How did you know it was not something else if you didn't compare it with everything known?
Science doesn't need to compare a result to everything known - the fact that you're still trying to harp on this is a pretty good indication that you don't have any clue of how science really works.  What matters in an experiment is whether the results match what you hypothesized or not, and whether your experiment used good enough procedures to exclude other possible causes.  How many times do I have to say this before it sinks in?  What that means is that you set the experiment up so that only the thing you're actually testing can cause the change you're looking for.

Quote from: Lukvance
It is just another way to say "compare it with everything known"
No, it is not.  Repeating something that isn't true won't make it true no matter how much you believe that it is.  It just makes you ignorant.

The only reason you're saying this is so that you can claim that there's no difference between the nonsensical 'theories' you come up with to justify your belief in your god and what scientists use to actually do their work.  That's insulting, ignorant, and stupid of you, the same attitude you've held ever since you came onto this forum, and I'm getting tired of dealing with it.

Quote from: Lukvance
Are you comparing yourself to God? if not, you cannot use yourself or any human for that matter to "prove" your point.
I really couldn't care less about your attempt to put your god on a pedestal.  That's all you and other theists ever do - try raise your god up high so you can pretend that you've got the biggest power in the universe in your corner.  But you can't demonstrate it when it really counts, and that defeats the whole purpose.

If it's impossible to compare a human to your god, then all that means is that your god is incomprehensible.  Did you realize that?  How we understand things is by comparing them to other things.  You're trying to get around that by comparing your god to idealistic concepts, but it really hasn't accomplished much, has it?  How many people did you actually sway with that "greatest possible being" argument of yours?  How many people have you actually swayed by trying to argue that people at Lourdes have "scientifically demonstrated miracles"...by ruling out all known explanations and then handing the question off to priests who then go and pray to find out whether it is your god or not.

It's time to face facts, Lukvance - your arguments just simply don't work.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #343 on: June 28, 2014, 06:41:21 PM »
Hey, I just realized that we are way off the point, afuera del tema, can't remember how to say it in French, and we know how much it annoys Lukvance when we stray off the subject at hand.

The issue: is there a god that exists outside of human brains. Lukvance has gotten us all distracted with his miracles. But miracles are in no way evidence that a god exists outside of human brains! Miracles could be the result of actions performed by the god that exists inside of every human brain (well, every brain except Sarah Palin's).

This is due to the fact that in every possible miracle healing we have discussed here, there is no evidence of any external force whatsoever. There no reported sound, no increased measurement of temperature or excess of radiation detected, nothing visible emanates towards the part that is later found to be healed. The healing must therefore be coming from an internal healing force, an internal god. This internal god does not want to be detected because it might end up being exorcised, so it tells the priest inside his brain that it was the external Christian god that did the healing.

Since we do not know what healed the hand, the healed hand has to have been healed by the invisible secret god that lives only inside of the human brain. I have just proved it.[1]

Lukvance, over to you.
 1. has Lukvance figured out what falsification means yet? We will see if he gets it, or if his invisible secret god is still fooling him the way it fools the priest.
How would you think it would happen if it was really God who did it?
An external force? Coming from where?
A sound, a light? Coming from where?
Higher temperature or excess of radiation? Caused by what?
How would you think it would happen if it was really God who did it?

If it was a "god who is outside of human beings" who healed the lady's hand, something (kindly god thoughts, godly energy, godly forces, god rays, godly heat, holy spirit molecules, whatever) would have to come from that "god who is outside of human beings" to the hand. And that godly something would have to be different from regular old nothing. You with me so far?

If we cannot see, hear, measure or in any other way detect, anything coming to the hand from anywhere, we have detected nothing. The only thing we can say with any certainty, if we can detect nothing,  is that the hand was healed and we do not know how or why, because we cannot detect anything that might have cured the hand.

If we have detected nothing, we cannot then jump first to the conclusion that there is really something there, and then make a second jump that we know what that something is, and then make a third jump and assume that we can describe it!  Remember, we have detected no sign or evidence of anything being there. How can we assume to describe it?

If you hear a strange noise in your kitchen and go look, but see nothing in there, you cannot jump to the conclusion, based on this feeling you have, that the noise was definitely made by gigantic, invisible, immaterial, odorless, purple people eater--and that you just can't detect him. No matter how many purple people eater experts you bring in to give testimony about how they also have a feeling that it is in your kitchen. No evidence. No people eater. You cannot use the noise you heard as evidence of the people eater, because the noise is the phenomenon you are trying to explain.

You have to first find some evidence of something, and only then can you start to speculate about the nature of that something. The healed hand cannot itself be used as evidence, because that is the phenomenon you are trying to explain. You have detected nothing that could have healed the hand. You have therefore, no evidence to use to figure out what, if anything was the cause of the hand being healed. There might be something there, but since we cannot detect any evidence of it, we have to assume that there is nothing there.[2]

Until we can detect something, we have to assume nothing is there, just like we have to assume no purple people eater in the kitchen. If we want to keep on thinking that the hand is healed by a god, and there is nothing that came from outside the person, the god must by process of elimination, be inside the person herself.

QED
 2. Before people discovered the relationship between germs and illness, it would have been unreasonable to assume that invisible critters made people sick. 
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #344 on: June 28, 2014, 06:48:20 PM »
But if something good happens and we don't know why but we like god why not just assume it was god?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #345 on: June 28, 2014, 06:51:30 PM »
Or this......


some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #346 on: June 28, 2014, 07:17:38 PM »
^^^Especially seeing as Lukvance hasn't even disproved the null hypothesis[1] - that the person naturally recovered on their own.  Unlikely?  Sure.  But not impossible.  If nothing happened to them that we could detect, and yet they still healed, we can't assume that something happened to them just because they healed.
 1. frankly, I doubt he's even considered it
« Last Edit: June 28, 2014, 08:14:09 PM by jaimehlers »
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #347 on: June 28, 2014, 08:08:18 PM »
Oh no!

You had to go an post a picture of the purple people eater. Lukvance will say it exists and has to be  responsible for the noise in his kitchen. Therefore his god also exists and healed the lady's hand! Now you've done it, eh!.

Teeth grinding...

;D
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?