Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 60904 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #261 on: June 20, 2014, 08:19:13 AM »
Oh I see. Doctors use many equipment to learn the source of a disease. (microscopes, x-rays...etc) are you talking about those equipment. There is not one equipment but a multitude that are used to determine if the event is a miracle. They even use chaplets, holly water, tuniques, shoes... I mean every element involved in the finding is a "tool" that is used to find out if it's a miracle or not. Granted, the scientific tools as we know it stops when it comes to the Bishop to decide if it's from God or not but some other tools, spiritual ones, take place. Sometime the event is not granted the miracle status even if there is no other scientific explanation for it. That is why I include the bishop/prayer and his peers in the discovering of the action of God on earth.
Typically if someone is going to re-run an experiment, they will want to have, ideally, an exact list of the equipment used - manufacturers, part number, standards compliance traceability, time of purchase, a record of any service that has been done to the equipment, etc.

Obviously it would be silly to ask you for such detail - I would not expect you to have access to that kind of information easily.  But some degree of detail would be nice - you imply that there is a medical diagnostics facility there, which is a great start.  That's at least kind of descriptive and I can start to envision how some of this testing goes.

But then I get stuck with the use of things like holy water, prayer...basically, you kind of just hand waved and said 'spiritual tools'.  How is prayer used to measure the miracle?  Is there a specific expected response from a patient with an immobile hand due to recitation of the Hail Mary over the Glory Be or something?

Try to get as specific as you can get.

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For example the person who couldn't move her hand could move it after the miracle happened. The cure was "instantaneous". They use a "clock" to measure the time.
When you say cure, did you mean the observation of the disease disappearing?  What kind of a clock?  When was it last calibrated?

In what way were other possible explanations for the restoration of movement of the hand restored?

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The hand cannot move "the process not started yet"
The hand can move "the process started"
What other ways can a hand 'not move'?  Due to muscle paralysis?  Ingesting of a toxic chemical?  Patient not desiring to move his/her hand?

How is movement defined?  Is shaking with 10 micrometer amplitude considered 'not moving' or 'moving'?  Were these observations done in the same room?  At the same time?  Maybe same time of day?  How many observers were there?  Did they all agree?  If they disagreed, what was the source of that discrepancy?  Can that discrepancy be accounted for?

Was this patient's diet controlled throughout this whole process?  What environments was this patient exposed to during the time of the experiment?

Have there been other, similar patients that have been observed in a similar way, and did they have the same outcome?

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For example the hand of the woman. It's the element that God "touched" and healed and that is proof of his action in this world. Proving by the same act, that he exist outside our mind :)
How does one identify that it is indeed god interacting with the element, and not any other mystical, powerful, unnatural entity, or some mundane, natural entity?

And how is that different from claiming that a dead baby is the element that god 'touched' and murdered being proof of his action in the world?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #262 on: June 20, 2014, 11:11:26 AM »
jaimehlers I know you addressed all my answers but I am having trouble finding what is your counter argument this time. Could you simplify it? I will use your last reply post as arguments supporting this counter argument. Meanwhile let me answer your questions :
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Have you ever participated in an actual investigation relating to these healings? [...] Have you ever participated in running an actual scientific experiment?
My answer to both is "no but I have testimonies"

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Do you simply not get the concept that you need a scientific explanation of what a miracle is before you can investigate something in order to see if it is a miracle?
I understand that we nee a theory before investigating if that theory is true.
The theory for gravity was "It is something to do with relative masses."
The theory for miraculous event was "It is something to do with God."
There are books written on the theory of gravity.
There are books written on the theory of miracles.
In conclusion there is as much scientific explanation of what a miracle is than there is scientific explanation of what gravity is.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #263 on: June 20, 2014, 11:12:14 AM »
You STILL haven't answered my question.
I'm sorry I am having trouble finding it. Can you please single it out?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #264 on: June 20, 2014, 11:31:20 AM »
The theory for gravity was "It is something to do with relative masses."

Can I recommend that you do a bit of independent study on this gravity thing?  You may wish to start at Wikipedia for the sake of convenience, hopefully drilling down to more thorough sources thereafter.  Start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_gravitational_theory

Saying "it is something to do with relative masses" is an exceptionally poor way to view gravity.  The most glaring problem with that statement is that the word 'something' actually represents a whole slew of objectively verifiable predictions.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #265 on: June 20, 2014, 12:09:19 PM »
How is prayer used to measure the miracle?  Is there a specific expected response from a patient with an immobile hand due to recitation of the Hail Mary over the Glory Be or something?
Try to get as specific as you can get.
In prayer you have the answer of your question from God. If you ask him "was it your doing?" you will get the answer. Most people like you believe that it is only one person who prays before giving the characteristic of miracle to an event when in fact there are many. It doesn't matter how you pray God, as long as most prayers have the same answer.
The miracle must not have "evil" consequences. For example : A healed hand must not commit murder right after if it wants to be recognize as a miracle.

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When you say cure, did you mean the observation of the disease disappearing?  What kind of a clock?  When was it last calibrated? In what way were other possible explanations for the restoration of movement of the hand restored?
Yes the disease disappear. When I said clock I meant time. If the disease takes too much time to disappear it might not be a miracle. The hand could have been restored by Vodou or things of that order, in this case there are no miracles.

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What other ways can a hand 'not move'? Due to muscle paralysis?  Ingesting of a toxic chemical?  Patient not desiring to move his/her hand?
  Yes. In this example : "she was left with an ulnar type of paralysis. She could not use the last two fingers of her right hand, which were held in typical palmar flexion."

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How is movement defined?  Is shaking with 10 micrometer amplitude considered 'not moving' or 'moving'?
I don't know I'm not a doctor.
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Were these observations done in the same room?  At the same time?  Maybe same time of day?  How many observers were there?  Did they all agree?  If they disagreed, what was the source of that discrepancy?  Can that discrepancy be accounted for? Was this patient's diet controlled throughout this whole process?  What environments was this patient exposed to during the time of the experiment?
All of that information is in the medical files of the desired miracle. But I know for a fact that miracles takes time and many people, so not only one observer and not only one room or one day.
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Have there been other, similar patients that have been observed in a similar way, and did they have the same outcome?[/b]
This information is in the files of the desired miracle. I believe that 2 miracles can be similar. If there was another case of healing similar than the event studied, it might not be considered as a miracle.

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How does one identify that it is indeed god interacting with the element, and not any other mystical, powerful, unnatural entity, or some mundane, natural entity?
It's in prayer. The event is presented to the closest priest[1] who then contact his peers and together they pray to identify that it is indeed god interacting with the element, and not any other mystical, powerful, unnatural entity.

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And how is that different from claiming that a dead baby is the element that god 'touched' and murdered being proof of his action in the world?
Do you mean that the bey died in an extraordinary way? I think it would depend on that "dead baby" case you are talking about.
But let's say it's a miscarriage. Then it's a miscarriage, not a miracle.
 1. http://en.lourdes-france.org/deepen/cures-and-miracles/recognition-of-a-miracle
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Offline Lukvance

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« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 12:15:24 PM by Lukvance »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #267 on: June 20, 2014, 12:11:40 PM »
Saying "it is something to do with relative masses" is an exceptionally poor way to view gravity.  The most glaring problem with that statement is that the word 'something' actually represents a whole slew of objectively verifiable predictions.
Take it up with Graybeard :
Construct hypothesis: It is something to do with relative masses.
This would explain planetary motion and why Australians do not fall off the earth!
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #268 on: June 20, 2014, 12:19:34 PM »
Lukvance,

I believe I read somewhere that there has been alot of testing and experimentation with gravity, for instance an asteroid of x mass exerts a predictable amout of attraction. 

I can not think of any predictions that have been able to be tested with respect to god with anything more than random results. 

Theory god can perform miracles if one says the magic words,  Test say the magic words, God please heal my baby who has a horrible disease parents A,B,C,D,E,F,G ... CA,CB,CC... through XY all watch their kids die horrible deaths, but parent XZ sees his kid improve a little and attributes it to a miracle.

Watching for gods miracles is actually almost always measured after the fact that a supposed miracle happened.  It ignores the tremendous number (Vast majority)of failures and is measured on the rare success. It is like making a video of me throwing pebbles at a beer bottle 90 feet away and over a period of years splicing together all the lucky shots that made it into the neck of the bottle and showing it to someone.  They would be amazed that anyone could nail that bottle over and over at such a great distance.  But when you show them the un-edited version you can see it was nothing more than dumb random luck.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #269 on: June 20, 2014, 12:41:36 PM »
Lukvance,
I believe I read somewhere that there has been alot of testing and experimentation with gravity, for instance an asteroid of x mass exerts a predictable amout of attraction. 
I can not think of any predictions that have been able to be tested with respect to god with anything more than random results.
 
I can not think of any predictions that have been able to be tested with respect to my actions with anything more than random results. 
For example : Will I turn left or right?

Quote
 
Theory god can perform miracles if one says the magic words,  Test say the magic words, God please heal my baby who has a horrible disease parents A,B,C,D,E,F,G ... CA,CB,CC... through XY all watch their kids die horrible deaths, but parent XZ sees his kid improve a little and attributes it to a miracle.
Watching for gods miracles is actually almost always measured after the fact that a supposed miracle happened.  It ignores the tremendous number (Vast majority)of failures and is measured on the rare success. It is like making a video of me throwing pebbles at a beer bottle 90 feet away and over a period of years splicing together all the lucky shots that made it into the neck of the bottle and showing it to someone.  They would be amazed that anyone could nail that bottle over and over at such a great distance.  But when you show them the un-edited version you can see it was nothing more than dumb random luck.
So your counter argument is that God doesn't exist because... random luck?
You cannot know what I will chose to do tomorrow, it is unpredictable. Why would you know what God will do tomorrow?
"Theory god can perform miracles if one says the magic words" I believe there are mistakes here. It's like you have not been reading the posts where I explain how Miracles are the actions of God, they are not God "performing" and they don't need "magic words" to happen.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #270 on: June 20, 2014, 12:47:35 PM »
Lukvance,
I believe I read somewhere that there has been alot of testing and experimentation with gravity, for instance an asteroid of x mass exerts a predictable amout of attraction. 
I can not think of any predictions that have been able to be tested with respect to god with anything more than random results.
 
I can not think of any predictions that have been able to be tested with respect to my actions with anything more than random results. 
For example : Will I turn left or right?
Right

Quote
 
Theory god can perform miracles if one says the magic words,  Test say the magic words, God please heal my baby who has a horrible disease parents A,B,C,D,E,F,G ... CA,CB,CC... through XY all watch their kids die horrible deaths, but parent XZ sees his kid improve a little and attributes it to a miracle.
Watching for gods miracles is actually almost always measured after the fact that a supposed miracle happened.  It ignores the tremendous number (Vast majority)of failures and is measured on the rare success. It is like making a video of me throwing pebbles at a beer bottle 90 feet away and over a period of years splicing together all the lucky shots that made it into the neck of the bottle and showing it to someone.  They would be amazed that anyone could nail that bottle over and over at such a great distance.  But when you show them the un-edited version you can see it was nothing more than dumb random luck.
So your counter argument is that God doesn't exist because... random luck?[/quote]
No

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You cannot know what I will chose to do tomorrow, it is unpredictable. Why would you know what God will do tomorrow?
"Theory god can perform miracles if one says the magic words" I believe there are mistakes here. It's like you have not been reading the posts where I explain how Miracles are the actions of God, they are not God "performing" and they don't need "magic words" to happen.

No

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #271 on: June 20, 2014, 01:19:44 PM »
My answer to both is "no but I have testimonies"
It doesn't sound like you understand them very well at all.  Perhaps that should be your first order of business - get a better understanding of the 'testimonies' that you're referring to.

Quote from: jaimehlers
Do you simply not get the concept that you need a scientific explanation of what a miracle is before you can investigate something in order to see if it is a miracle?
Quote from: Lukvance
I understand that we nee a theory before investigating if that theory is true.
I don't really think you do understand that at this point, explanation below.

Quote from: Lukvance
The theory for gravity was "It is something to do with relative masses."
This is not a theory.  A theory must be specific so that it can be tested and falsified.  I think the original theory for gravity was along the lines of "two masses will attract each other based on how much mass they have and how far apart they are".  This is specific, so it can be tested, and since it can be tested, it can be falsified.

Quote from: Lukvance
The theory for miraculous event was "It is something to do with God."
This is not a theory.  How do we test "something to do with God"?  How do we tell if God is actually doing anything?  How do we tell if what God did had an effect?  There's nothing to get a hold of, nothing to actually test, no way to falsify it.

Quote from: Lukvance
There are books written on the theory of gravity.
There are books written on the theory of miracles.
Since there is no "theory of miracles", how can there be books written on it?  What you mean is that there's books written about miracles, but there's no scientific explanation for them, so there's no theory to work with.

Quote from: Lukvance
In conclusion there is as much scientific explanation of what a miracle is than there is scientific explanation of what gravity is.
Incorrect; there is no scientific explanation of a miracle, because science is concerned with how something happens (note that this is simplified).  For example, the scientific explanation for why blood clots is that small cells called platelets anchor themselves to tissues and to other platelets, preventing red blood cells from flowing past them.  It's an explanation for how it happens.  Your statements about miracles are not explanations, because there is no 'how' involved.  You simply say that God does it, and make no effort to explain how the miracle actually happens - how God actually performs it.

You need to explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed, and how it causes the person to be healed.  And you need to have evidence which supports the explanation.  And that's a bare minimum to get anywhere.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #272 on: June 20, 2014, 01:46:29 PM »
You STILL haven't answered my question.
I'm sorry I am having trouble finding it. Can you please single it out?

No, I'm just reporting you to the mods when I notice you dodging a question. You can ether follow the rules you agreed to when you signed up or deal with the consequences - unlike with your idea of a deity, these consequences WILL eventually catch up with you.

I wish I could say that it's been fun, but unlike you, I actually value honesty. Nice job representing Catholicism.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #273 on: June 20, 2014, 02:08:41 PM »
lukvance, per your spite smite: "It wasn't an important question then   "

You twisted yourself in knots to avoid answering the question I repeated for you at least three times and now you are claiming that you don't know what question I'm referring to and smiting me for not spelling it out for you yet again.

Do you honestly not recognize how petty and childish you look? 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 02:16:34 PM by Jag »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #274 on: June 20, 2014, 02:08:59 PM »
You need to explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed, and how it causes the person to be healed.  And you need to have evidence which supports the explanation.  And that's a bare minimum to get anywhere.
Explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed is like saying explain how god's affect the person being healed. And he affect her by curing her, each miracle is different. No more handicap. I don't understand what you are missing here.
You see a tree blocking the road
You ask me to push the tree away and close your eyes
I push the tree away
You don't see the tree blocking the road anymore. Is there a need for an explanation on how I affected the tree? I could have used another car or my hands but how does it matter? The manner I used doesn't make me less real.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #275 on: June 20, 2014, 02:11:05 PM »
Do you honestly not recognize how petty and childish you look?
No.
Insulting me won't help the discussion to move on.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #276 on: June 20, 2014, 02:36:53 PM »
In this example : "she was left with an ulnar type of paralysis. She could not use the last two fingers of her right hand, which were held in typical palmar flexion."

If fingers 4 and 5 are involved, it is indeed the ulnar nerve ... which can be irritated or damaged as it passes over the elbow joint.

If the fingers are in flexion, it might be spasticity due to disuse.

Anything that relieves the entrapment of the nerve at the elbow could cause spontaneous recovery; in fact, ulnar nerve transposition is an example of surgery that can relieve this.  Keeping the elbow less bent, and/or wearing something to keep the arm straight at night, can relieve milder cases of ulnar nerve problems.

Finally, if the injury is of fairly recent origin, peripheral nerves can regrow.  There are also various electrodiagnostic tests that can be done to find out what's happening with the nerves and muscles.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #277 on: June 20, 2014, 03:02:21 PM »
You need to explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed, and how it causes the person to be healed.  And you need to have evidence which supports the explanation.  And that's a bare minimum to get anywhere.

Explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed is like saying explain how god's affect the person being healed. And he affect her by curing her, each miracle is different.
Therefore, since you cannot explain how it happens, you have no scientific explanation and thus no hypothesis (never mind a theory). 

Quote from: Lukvance
No more handicap. I don't understand what you are missing here.
I am not missing anything.  I understand what you're trying to do, but it isn't science, and you can't make it science as long as you're content to just say "God causes miracles".

Quote from: Lukvance
You see a tree blocking the road
You ask me to push the tree away and close your eyes
I push the tree away
You don't see the tree blocking the road anymore.
This is a bad analogy; allow me to correct it.

I see a tree blocking the road.  I try to move it and can't; the tree is too big and heavy for me to move even using my car, so I have to move on.  Later, I tell you about the tree blocking the road, and you tell me that you'll pray to God for the tree to be removed.  Later on, I go back, and the tree is off to the side of the road, so cars can get through.  I don't see any tire tracks or drag marks indicating that someone came along and moved it.  Should I simply assume that your prayer worked and God moved the tree?  That's what you're telling me to do; that because I can't explain it, and because you prayed to God, the "scientific explanation" is that God moved the tree.

The thing is, you're just taking it on faith that God answered your prayer; you don't actually know if he moved it or not.  You and I are both ignorant of what moved the tree and how it was moved.  I, however, am not willing to accept that God did it simply because of the coincidence that you happened to pray beforehand.

Quote from: Lukvance
Is there a need for an explanation on how I affected the tree? I could have used another car or my hands but how does it matter? The manner I used doesn't make me less real.
Actually, that's the point, I do need the explanation.  It isn't enough for you to just say that you moved the tree on your own because I couldn't see what actually moved the tree.  I am not willing to remain ignorant of what actually happened simply because you think it's enough to just tell me that you did it.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #278 on: June 20, 2014, 10:43:37 PM »
Lukvance, do you understand that you cannot say with certainty that your god moved the tree?

Yes, the tree was moved after you prayed, but that is all you can say about it. You do not have any evidence connecting the tree moving and your prayer.  There could be a different way for that tree to get moved that are not related to prayer and not supernatural. For example, a helicopter could have lifted the tree out. Someone else could have prayed to a different god to move the tree. How do you know it was not their god who did it?

Even if the tree was moved magically or supernaturally, with no evidence showing who did it and how, it could have been Satan trying to fool you. Or Shango. Or Thor. Or some shy god nobody has heard of. Or maybe it was aliens using a tree lifting ray.

You cannot conclude that it was your god who moved the tree without any evidence that shows that it had to be your god, and only your god. You have no way to rule out all the other possibilities. You jump to the conclusion that it was your god, but you have no explanation for doing that.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #279 on: June 21, 2014, 07:58:04 AM »
You cannot conclude that it was your god who moved the tree without any evidence that shows that it had to be your god, and only your god. You have no way to rule out all the other possibilities. You jump to the conclusion that it was your god, but you have no explanation for doing that.
Unfortunately, no.  What he'll say is that a high-ranking priest in the Catholic church's hierarchy consulted and prayed in order to determine if it was a miracle from God or if Satan did it instead, and if the priest says that God did it after that, well, that's the end of the story as far as Lukvance is concerned.

Never mind that, first off, it's only one priest asking to begin with, second, there's no way to tell if they're actually getting an answer from God as opposed to their own subconscious, third, it assumes that anything unexplained was caused by the supernatural even though things in the past were unexplained before we figured them out with science, and other things on top of those.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #280 on: June 21, 2014, 10:29:08 AM »
Do you honestly not recognize how petty and childish you look?
No.

I rest my case.

Quote
Insulting me

I haven't even remotely begun to insulted you.

Quote
won't help the discussion to move on.

Nor will your repeated dodging of my clear and direct question. It's a familiar tactic here, we see theist pull this silly stunt all the time.

Feel free to continue smiting me, that does nothing to change the fact that you STILL haven't addressed my question.
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Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #281 on: June 21, 2014, 12:04:04 PM »
You need to explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed, and how it causes the person to be healed.  And you need to have evidence which supports the explanation.  And that's a bare minimum to get anywhere.
Explain how the miracle goes from God to the person being healed is like saying explain how god's affect the person being healed. And he affect her by curing her, each miracle is different. No more handicap. I don't understand what you are missing here.
You see a tree blocking the road
You ask me to push the tree away and close your eyes
I push the tree away
You don't see the tree blocking the road anymore. Is there a need for an explanation on how I affected the tree? I could have used another car or my hands but how does it matter? The manner I used doesn't make me less real.

Except this is a false analogy because in your scenario there is a "YOU" that is demonstrable. We can present youand ask questions, ask for a demonstration, and we have lots of examples of people moving trees. We do not have any examples of an alleged "god" doing anything that can be demonstrated in the same fashion. As others have noted there could be MANY explanations for why a tree was moved when other people were not around. An appeal to magic explains nothing. It is just a placeholder for your ignorance. So this comparison fails. What you are essentially always falling back on is, "God did it because I say so." Sorry, that isn't sufficient. Are you expecting everyone to just take your word for it, like you did with those who got you to believe your theology in the first place? Since you have no reliable method for separating an alleged "miracle" from a natural occurring event (a non-miracle) then your argument is invalid and should be corrected.

I've been away for a month and still you are arguing irrationally. Go figure.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 12:12:18 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #282 on: June 21, 2014, 12:46:12 PM »
I've been away for a month and still you are arguing irrationally. Go figure.

This is nothing. I'm disappointed that you didn't get to read the two weeks worth of illogical hysterics that got lost when the site went down earlier this week. You'd have had a blast shredding the nonsense.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #283 on: June 22, 2014, 11:43:49 PM »
Actually, that's the point, I do need the explanation.  It isn't enough for you to just say that you moved the tree on your own because I couldn't see what actually moved the tree.  I am not willing to remain ignorant of what actually happened simply because you think it's enough to just tell me that you did it.
So, are you saying that not knowing how I moved the tree makes me nonexistent? Because that is the question asked here and answered by miracle, the existence of God.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #284 on: June 22, 2014, 11:45:21 PM »
Lukvance, do you understand that you cannot say with certainty that your god moved the tree?

Yes, the tree was moved after you prayed, but that is all you can say about it. You do not have any evidence connecting the tree moving and your prayer.  There could be a different way for that tree to get moved that are not related to prayer and not supernatural. For example, a helicopter could have lifted the tree out. Someone else could have prayed to a different god to move the tree. How do you know it was not their god who did it?

Even if the tree was moved magically or supernaturally, with no evidence showing who did it and how, it could have been Satan trying to fool you. Or Shango. Or Thor. Or some shy god nobody has heard of. Or maybe it was aliens using a tree lifting ray.

You cannot conclude that it was your god who moved the tree without any evidence that shows that it had to be your god, and only your god. You have no way to rule out all the other possibilities. You jump to the conclusion that it was your god, but you have no explanation for doing that.
I agree with you. I didn't talk about God moving the tree. It was someone else's idea. So ask him, not me.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #285 on: June 22, 2014, 11:48:55 PM »
I've been away for a month and still you are arguing irrationally. Go figure.
That is not my argument. I'm arguing my existence, not the fact that the tree was pushed naturally or not.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #286 on: June 23, 2014, 12:19:15 AM »
So, are you saying that not knowing how I moved the tree makes me nonexistent? Because that is the question asked here and answered by miracle, the existence of God.
How typical of you to completely miss the point, as usual.

First, if you actually did move the tree, I want to know how.  Not because it will make the slightest bit of difference as to whether you exist (because I have PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that you exist - your presence in front of me, that I can confirm with my senses), but because I'm not willing to accept your claim that you moved it without additional evidence.  Now, if you had a truck parked nearby, and I saw tire tracks in the road that showed a vehicle pushing the tree out of the way, I would consider that sufficient evidence to substantiate your claim.  But if you're just standing there smiling, and there's a tree by the side of the road which you claimed to have moved, I'm going to expect you to show me how you moved it rather than just assuming you have magic superpowers that allow you to.  And if you refuse, I'm going to not believe that you actually did move it.  This isn't a book or a play, where you can expect me to suspend my disbelief.  This is reality, where if you claim to be able to do something, someone is eventually going to expect you to follow through with it.

Second, and much more important, we are not talking about a human being physically moving a tree.  We are talking about some immaterial being presumably doing things to physical matter without leaving the slightest sign behind it to show that it did.  You cannot simply say, "God healed that woman's hand" simply because her hand healed.  You have to show that God exists in the first place - because it could simply be some freak coincidence of factors that caused her hand to heal - and then you have to show how God performed the healing.  If you can't, then you're arguing from ignorance (basically, you don't know how it happened, therefore God), and there's no reason whatsoever to accept what you say, even if you have a million people (or a billion) who agree that your god did it without knowing how.  Because that's an argument from popularity (if lots of people believe, it must be true).

If you have a million sick and injured people all going to Lourdes every year, even if there is only a one in a million chance that they would have healed due to natural causes during the time they were present, that still means you have a pretty good chance that one of them will heal while they're there.  That's why I don't accept your claim that your god is doing the healings; when you consider the number of people who go there hoping against hope that they'll be healed, it stands to reason that, occasionally, one of them will get healed due to something that seems miraculous.  But that doesn't mean that it's supernatural, even with the procedures the Catholic Church has set up.  The most they can say is that we don't know how they healed.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #287 on: June 23, 2014, 12:18:52 PM »
Lukvance, do you understand that you cannot say with certainty that your god moved the tree?

Yes, the tree was moved after you prayed, but that is all you can say about it. You do not have any evidence connecting the tree moving and your prayer.  There could be a different way for that tree to get moved that are not related to prayer and not supernatural. For example, a helicopter could have lifted the tree out. Someone else could have prayed to a different god to move the tree. How do you know it was not their god who did it?

Even if the tree was moved magically or supernaturally, with no evidence showing who did it and how, it could have been Satan trying to fool you. Or Shango. Or Thor. Or some shy god nobody has heard of. Or maybe it was aliens using a tree lifting ray.

You cannot conclude that it was your god who moved the tree without any evidence that shows that it had to be your god, and only your god. You have no way to rule out all the other possibilities. You jump to the conclusion that it was your god, but you have no explanation for doing that.
I agree with you. I didn't talk about God moving the tree. It was someone else's idea. So ask him, not me.

Then you are agreeing that you do not know how the tree was moved. So cannot say that it was a god. You cannot absolutely rule out a god or a fairy with a magical tree moving ray, but there are a lot of possibilities to rule out before you get to the magical or supernatural.
When all of Cinderella's finery changed back at midnight, why didn't the shoes disappear? What's up with that?

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #288 on: June 23, 2014, 03:31:39 PM »
First, if you actually did move the tree, I want to know how.  Not because it will make the slightest bit of difference as to whether you exist (because I have PHYSICAL EVIDENCE that you exist - your presence in front of me, that I can confirm with my senses), but because I'm not willing to accept your claim that you moved it without additional evidence.  Now, if you had a truck parked nearby, and I saw tire tracks in the road that showed a vehicle pushing the tree out of the way, I would consider that sufficient evidence to substantiate your claim.  But if you're just standing there smiling, and there's a tree by the side of the road which you claimed to have moved, I'm going to expect you to show me how you moved it rather than just assuming you have magic superpowers that allow you to.  And if you refuse, I'm going to not believe that you actually did move it.  This isn't a book or a play, where you can expect me to suspend my disbelief.  This is reality, where if you claim to be able to do something, someone is eventually going to expect you to follow through with it.

What you say make sense, it is right too.
But are you listening to me? I am talking about my existence. I know that you can see me, but I could argue that I was only in your imagination. I cannot be only in your head if I moved the tree that you asked me to move.
Let's say that for this example, I moved the tree simply by pushing it out of the way with my bare hands. You didn't see me push it away because you closed your eyes.  I come back to the car and tell you to go. All the information you have is you are here, in a car and there was a tree blocking the road that is not there anymore. You "know" that I'm here (since your senses can be fooled). Isn't the fact that the tree is not blocking you anymore after you ask me to move it for you proof enough of my existence? Don't you believe in the existence of stuff with less proof than that?

Quote
Second, and much more important, we are not talking about a human being physically moving a tree.  We are talking about some immaterial being presumably doing things to physical matter without leaving the slightest sign behind it to show that it did.  You cannot simply say, "God healed that woman's hand" simply because her hand healed.  You have to show that God exists in the first place - because it could simply be some freak coincidence of factors that caused her hand to heal - and then you have to show how God performed the healing.  If you can't, then you're arguing from ignorance (basically, you don't know how it happened, therefore God), and there's no reason whatsoever to accept what you say, even if you have a million people (or a billion) who agree that your god did it without knowing how.  Because that's an argument from popularity (if lots of people believe, it must be true).
I know, miracles are not simple mater. It is very complicated to recognize one. It takes time and many people. You have to make sure it is not "luck" of "natural healing" or anything that it could be before claiming it is a miracle.

Quote
If you have a million sick and injured people all going to Lourdes every year, even if there is only a one in a million chance that they would have healed due to natural causes during the time they were present, that still means you have a pretty good chance that one of them will heal while they're there.  That's why I don't accept your claim that your god is doing the healings; when you consider the number of people who go there hoping against hope that they'll be healed, it stands to reason that, occasionally, one of them will get healed due to something that seems miraculous.  But that doesn't mean that it's supernatural, even with the procedures the Catholic Church has set up.  The most they can say is that we don't know how they healed.
It comes back to how would YOU do it? You seem to say that the system in place is not good. I can understand how it can be perceived as flawed when it is looked from afar. But then you can take a little time with your conscience and ask her what would make YOU accept the miracle? Can you trust your senses?
How was the way they declared the miracle as such different to the way YOU would find acceptable?
« Last Edit: June 23, 2014, 03:36:29 PM by Lukvance »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #289 on: June 23, 2014, 03:35:04 PM »
Then you are agreeing that you do not know how the tree was moved. So cannot say that it was a god. You cannot absolutely rule out a god or a fairy with a magical tree moving ray, but there are a lot of possibilities to rule out before you get to the magical or supernatural.
Yes I agree with you.
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