Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 60876 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #232 on: June 19, 2014, 07:40:12 AM »
Test with experiment: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/downloads/how_lourdes_cures_recognized.pdf

That is neither a test nor an experiment.  An experiment produces data.  This has none.  You need to have a control group, which this does not have.  You need to show your results are statistically significant.  This does no statistics.  It is a collection of anecdotes. 

This is the problem.  You are completely ignorant.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  And you are too ignorant to recognize your ignorance.

Does it work? Yes

You have no idea.  It may, or it may not.  Nothing you linked even begins to address it.

Analyse data and draw conclusions: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html

Incorrect.  There is no data and no analysis.  It is just a collection of stories from the mid19th century.  There is no way to even corroborate that the information is correct.

 


What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #233 on: June 19, 2014, 07:43:07 AM »
I wish ton return on the subject at hand, meaning the existence of God "proved" by the scientific method.

Your analogy doesn't "prove" god by the scientific method.
The only reason why we won't find a higgs boson in any given location is purely economic. Now we know how to do it we can repeat the experiment at will.

Why can these "miracles" only be detected at lourdes? Does god have a finite supply of " lourdes type miracles"? If not then why not replicate them else where?

Offline eh!

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some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #235 on: June 19, 2014, 08:17:50 AM »
Go figure, waste a freakin money.

http://www.nbcnews.com/id/12082681/ns/health-heart_health/t/power-prayer-flunks-unusual-test/

I liked this bit

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Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who didn't take part in the study, said the results didn't surprise him.There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said. "There is no god in either the Christian, Jewish or Moslem scriptures that can be constrained to the point that they can be predicted."

I read that as god is not just. Anyone else get that?

Online Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #236 on: June 19, 2014, 08:22:54 AM »
So why is all the miracle measuring equipment there?
I'm sorry, they are not all there. I hope I don't have to explain to you why all the measuring equipment of miracles of Lourdes are at Lourdes.
That's not what I was asking but nice try at diverting.

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I don't think miracles should be classified in types.
Why are you trying so hard to avoid answering my very clear question abut miraculous healing? I don't particularly care if you object to the specific word "type", pick whatever synonym you prefer, but answer the question: Are you claiming that you've been miraculously healed, or are you refering to a different type of miraculous event?

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Are there types of Higgs Bosons?
Does not equate.

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If you want to talk about the miracle I lived I will gladly talk about it with you in another thread.

Or you could quit dodging all over the place and just answer my very clear and direct question. Right here, where Lourdes has been under discussion and I've asked you repeatedly, while you have tied yourself up in knots trying to avoid answering me while still posting in response to my posts.

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I wish ton return on the subject at hand, meaning the existence of God "proved" by the scientific method.

And I wish you to answer my very clear and direct question.

Once you have, let's get back to my other question that you HAVE provided an answer (of sorts) to. If the location of Lourdes is not important  (other than as a storage location for miracle measuring equipment), I can only conclude by your reply that you are saying that all the people who have traveled to Lourdes to get a shot a miraculous healing had no actual need to go to Lourdes to get the miraculous healing they were seeking. Am I interpreting your posts correctly?

You're in luck again luk - I'm going to be offline for a while, so take your time.
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #237 on: June 19, 2014, 08:32:09 AM »
You need to explain in what way Lourdes serves as a way to measure miracles.
It is where the equipment is.
There is no way you can honestly think that this would qualify as an explanation.  There is no way you can honestly think that you would not need to provide at least a high level description of what this equipment is.

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What are the measurement units of a 'miracle'?
Same as the measurement unit of an Higgs Boson. One? I'm not sure if its apply.
Some of the measurements that apply to the Higgs boson are quantifiable properties like mass, charge, spin, and parity.  So I'm pretty sure they are not the same as the measurement units applicable to a 'miracle'.  You're random guess of a dimensionless number 'one' indicates that you are content to simply making sh*t up to support your views.  Very dishonest Lukvance.  Very.

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Percentage of individuals who received some detectable manner of healing at Lourdes vs. percentage of individuals who received some detectable manner of healing in the general populace of the globe? I dunno but that seems reasonable, doesn't it?
No.
Well, why not?  Seems like there is are a larger percentage of people seeking miracles in Lourdes compared to not Lourdes.  Is that incorrect?

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what is the process for making a measurement?
Reply #203
As you seem to have no clue what it is you're measuring in the first place, I'm pretty sure that you have no process for making a measurement.  Looking at reply #203 again, that still appears to be the case.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #238 on: June 19, 2014, 08:50:27 AM »
Communicate results to Lukvance who will give us the formula for proving mathematically that God exists outside our minds.
Ask question: “Why do people get magically healed?”
Do background research: “Most people who get sick go the the hospital and get cured by following medical assistance, but some of them just pray and get cures without medical assistance.
What is that force that cure them?"

Construct hypothesis: It is something to do with God.
This would explain why God is living outside our head.

Test with experiment: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/downloads/how_lourdes_cures_recognized.pdf

Does it work? Yes

Analyse data and draw conclusions: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html

Results align with hypothesis

Communicate results to you : There is a force curing people from illness. This force is God.

Can you please provide the mathematical formula?

That is what I asked for, why are you avoiding answering?

And how do you know it is Yahweh and not Satan or Baal Hadad or Isis?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 08:53:10 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #239 on: June 19, 2014, 11:00:58 AM »
I found this. I have actually seen a Kumari... she was looking out of a window and chewing gum in a bored sort of way:

OK Luk, here is a goddess that does exist outside your mind... that is, if you believe in your mind that she is a goddess:


Your god does not actually appear anywhere as a separate entity though, does he? So do you mean this goddess?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #240 on: June 19, 2014, 01:05:10 PM »
Or, at least, that's a convenient way to dismiss it without reading (or possibly even understanding it).  That is the problem here; every time someone says anything that contradicts your belief that miracles somehow 'prove' God's existence, you ignore it or claim it's not relevant without explaining why.  And when they explain why it was actually relevant, you either disregard it the same way or attempt to copy it for your own beliefs without really understanding it.
This response has been deleted as it contradicts my instructions to Lukvance. Readers may assume that Lukvance has no argument to counter with.

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Quote from: Lukvance
Your counter argument supposes that miracle works only a small percentage of the time when in fact it works every time!
No, miracles don't work all the time.  Otherwise they would always happen to everyone wherever they happened to be and would not be particularly special.  Your problem here is that you're only counting the hits and ignoring the far greater proportion of misses.  It's like crowing about hitting the bullseye on a dartboard when you had to throw a million darts at it just to get that one bullseye, and actually hit the dartboard a thousand times or so in total.  It's a lot less impressive when you actually look at the number of negatives it took to reach the handful of positives, isn't it?
I understand that you want to think a miracle to be something that can fail. But the truth is that "failed miracles" are simply not miracles. Just like "failed Higgs Boson" are simply not Higgs bosons.

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Quote from: Lukvance
I think you misunderstand the procedure that you have to follow to get the miracle.
No, I understood it just fine.  I also understood that in a hundred fifty years, with visitors probably numbering well over a hundred million by now, there have been a total of 67 healings that the Catholic Church has claimed were miracles.  67 out of a hundred million isn't even a rounding error, and trying to excuse it by saying that a person doesn't understand the procedure or whatever else you come up with won't change that.
Again you are counting the number of "non miracle" it's like counting the number of "non Higgs Boson" Here is my question, if I were to tell you that each and everyone of the little lines seen on the screen that are not the Higgs Boson are "failed Higgs Boson"  will the Higgs Boson be less existent?

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Quote from: Lukvance
Could you give us an example of when a miracle doesn't work?
Every single person who visits Lourdes hoping for miraculous healing and doesn't get it.  Those are all miracles that didn't happen - people who went there hoping and praying for a miraculous cure and were disappointed.  Instead, you point to the 67 "confirmed miracles" (less than one every two years, I might add) and claim that they're proof of God, and ignore the millions of people who go there yearly and get nothing for their efforts, even though every single one of them falsifies your claim about miracles happening at Lourdes.  All that does is sabotage your claim and leave you open to criticism of your methods.
I understand the mistake you made. It comes from the fact that you think a "failed miracle" is any experiment in detecting a miracle that has failed. Isn't that like you telling me that every "failed Higgs Boson" is a failed experiment in detecting the "Higgs Boson"? It doesn't make sense.

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Quote from: Lukvance
You should be able to understand that the miracle is just the observable effect that shows you that God exist.
Repeating something over and over won't change whether it's actually true or not.  And the fact is that your 'experiment' is only designed to catch the positives while discarding all the negatives.  You don't even have a control set up to test the proportion of "miraculous cures" in some other heavily-visited place, which is absolutely critical for any experiment.
Is the experiment in the LHC designed to catch the positives while discarding all the negatives? Do you have a control set up to test the proportion of "Higgs Boson" in some other place in the world?

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Quote from: Lukvance
It is just like this little line in the LHC[1] result screen that shows you that Higgs Boson exist.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
Not the same thing at all, Lukvance.  You see, the salient point that you just keep missing is that scientists can actually perform controlled experiments using the LHC.  Yet the only thing that scientists do at Lourdes is say whether there's a known explanation or not
What kind of experiment performed at Lourdes is not controlled? Isn't the only thing that scientists do at LHC is say whether there's a known explanation or not for that line on the screen?

If I resume. Your counter argument is based on "non miracle". This make as much sense as a "non Higgs Boson" (meaning all the others fundamental particles)
You say that "non miracle" are too many for miracle to even be considered.
The other counter argument that you put forward was that the scientist just say it is not anything else than a miracle so miracles don't exist.
It makes as much sense as if you were saying that the scientist just say it is not anything else than a Higgs Boson so Higgs Boson don't exist.
Finally you say that the experience does not have a control group when you know that these experiences are conducted regularly in the Vatican.

Now could you formulate solid counter arguments? or do you accept the proof I gave you? <-this is arrogant, provocative and wrong.

Lukvance,
you can provide far better arguments than the ones you have, and when you do, you should not provoke other posters.

Some people who debate take a malicious joy in causing anger in others with the intention of later reporting them. Please do not be amongst those people.
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« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 01:37:10 PM by Graybeard »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #241 on: June 19, 2014, 01:31:38 PM »
Test with experiment: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/downloads/how_lourdes_cures_recognized.pdf
That is neither a test nor an experiment.  An experiment produces data.  This has none.  You need to have a control group, which this does not have.  You need to show your results are statistically significant.  This does no statistics.  It is a collection of anecdotes. 
Of course there is data produces by that experiments. Did you watch the video I posted about the science behind the miracles. I'll post it again later just in case it was deleted.
Of course there is a control group (in the case of the woman healing her hand the control group was other women that had their hand crushed and did not pray God to heal them) and the results are statistically significant (meaning that there are more people instantly healed after praying God than people instantly healed after not praying God)
All of those are on paper. And you can reproduce the experiment as many times as you want to have the same result.

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This is the problem.  You are completely ignorant.  You have no idea what you are talking about.  And you are too ignorant to recognize your ignorance. [...] You have no idea.  It may, or it may not.  Nothing you linked even begins to address it.
That is your personal opinion. You should keep it to yourself as it doesn't help the conversation at all.

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There is no way to even corroborate that the information is correct.
Yes there are records. They are there or a reason. You are not the first one trying to discredit the miracles of Lourdes you know?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #242 on: June 19, 2014, 01:45:24 PM »
If the location of Lourdes is not important  (other than as a storage location for miracle measuring equipment), I can only conclude by your reply that you are saying that all the people who have traveled to Lourdes to get a shot a miraculous healing had no actual need to go to Lourdes to get the miraculous healing they were seeking. Am I interpreting your posts correctly?
Yes.

Are there types of Higgs Bosons?
Does not equate.
Why? What is the difference between miracles and Higgs boson when it comes to having different types? Why one must have different types and not the other?
You are having the same trouble than jaimelhers. Thinking as miracle as something that it is not. The way I present miracle in my scientific method proof is the same way we present Higgs boson or gravity in their scientific method proof.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #243 on: June 19, 2014, 01:47:09 PM »
No, miracles don't work all the time. 
You spend a lot of time pointlessly speaking of the Higgs Boson, as if this gives your belief in magic some scientific credibility.

The difference lies in the Higgs boson existing in reality, and your god lacking all evidence.

The word "miracle" is used when those who investigate cannot find a reason. If they cannot find a reason, we atheists say,

"That is their ignorance and they should simply say, 'I do not know' but they do not say this. Instead they say that it is the Judeo-Christian god, Yahweh. They say this without any proof at all when it could have been any other god or, more likely, a natural cause that they simply do not understand."

Again, and as always, "God did it!" is used blindly and without any connection or reason, proving that religion is the worship of pure ignorance.

“Wandering in a vast forest at night, I have only a faint light to guide me. A stranger appears and says to me: 'My friend, you should blow out your candle in order to find your way more clearly.' This stranger is a theologian.”
-- Diderot, c1762

The French says it better:
Égaré dans la forêt immense pendant la nuit, je n’ai plus qu’une petite lumière pour me conduire. Survient un inconnu qui me dit : "Mon ami, souffle la chandelle pour mieux trouver ton chemin". Cet inconnu est un théologien."

and that is as true then as it is now - real wisdom.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2014, 01:49:25 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #244 on: June 19, 2014, 02:25:31 PM »
You need to explain in what way Lourdes serves as a way to measure miracles.
It is where the equipment is.
There is no way you can honestly think that this would qualify as an explanation.  There is no way you can honestly think that you would not need to provide at least a high level description of what this equipment is.
What is high level description? I gave you the link in the post #203. If you need more information about one of these "instruments" please ask away. But I think they are very explicit.

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Some of the measurements that apply to the Higgs boson are quantifiable properties like mass, charge, spin, and parity.  So I'm pretty sure they are not the same as the measurement units applicable to a 'miracle'.  You're random guess of a dimensionless number 'one' indicates that you are content to simply making sh*t up to support your views.  Very dishonest Lukvance.  Very.
Apparently I did not understand the question (hence the "i'm not sure it applies") With your example at hand I can give you more precisely the information you are seeking. No need to insult.
To the question "What are the measurement units of a 'higgs Boson'? you answer "Some of the measurements that apply to the Higgs boson are quantifiable properties"
To the question "What are the measurement units of a 'miracle'? I answer "some of the measurements that apply to the miracle are quantifiable properties like the time it took to happen, people it happen to, how was the element before the miracle (size, weight, lenght texture...etc), how long the miracle last"

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Well, why not?  Seems like there is are a larger percentage of people seeking miracles in Lourdes compared to not Lourdes.  Is that incorrect?
That is, indeed, incorrect. Most of the miracle does not happen at Lourdes. They happen all around the world. Consequently most people that are seeking miracles are outside of Lourdes.

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As you seem to have no clue what it is you're measuring in the first place, I'm pretty sure that you have no process for making a measurement.  Looking at reply #203 again, that still appears to be the case.
People at Lourdes are measuring if it's the hand of God or not. People in the LHC are measuring if it's the Higgs Boson or not.
There are rules (synonym of steps or processes) that one event must follow before being called Higgs Boson.
There are rules (synonym of steps or processes) that one event must follow before being called miracle. Those rules are described in the link I provided in reply #203.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #245 on: June 19, 2014, 02:45:01 PM »
Can you please provide the mathematical formula?
I'm not sure that there is a mathematical formula for miracles but the only way to get one is to ask God and wait for his answer.

You can know that I exist because I have an influence on my environment, you can prove my existence by using the scientific method but I don't think you could have a mathematical formula for my actions in the world. You can have the process used to prove my existence (tools used, experiences made...etc)

Can you provide the mathematical formula for my actions in the world? is basically what you are asking (but about God). If you can, I might understand your question. Until then, for me, it doesn't make sense. Maybe I misunderstood?

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That is what I asked for, why are you avoiding answering?
I am not avoiding. You did not ask for mathematical formula until now.

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And how do you know it is Yahweh and not Satan or Baal Hadad or Isis?
There are test available to theists to know if something is from God or not. Theses test must be "passed" before an event is called "miracle" from the Vatican.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #246 on: June 19, 2014, 02:51:40 PM »
Or, at least, that's a convenient way to dismiss it without reading (or possibly even understanding it).  That is the problem here; every time someone says anything that contradicts your belief that miracles somehow 'prove' God's existence, you ignore it or claim it's not relevant without explaining why.  And when they explain why it was actually relevant, you either disregard it the same way or attempt to copy it for your own beliefs without really understanding it.
This response has been deleted as it contradicts my instructions to Lukvance. Readers may assume that Lukvance has no argument to counter with.
An argument to counter what exactly in this case Graybeard?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #247 on: June 19, 2014, 04:14:43 PM »
I understand that you want to think a miracle to be something that can fail.
It isn't about what I want to think, or what I don't want to think.  It's about whether you get to say, "well, all those times when nothing happened, they weren't miracles.  I'm only counting the times when science couldn't figure it out and a priest said that God told him it was a miracle."  That's the argument from ignorance fallacy and the argument from authority fallacy; two fallacies for the price of one.

Quote from: Lukvance
But the truth is that "failed miracles" are simply not miracles. Just like "failed Higgs Boson" are simply not Higgs bosons.
Nope, that isn't it at all.  There is no such thing as a 'failed' Higgs boson.  There can be a failure to find a Higgs boson, but it has specific characteristics which make identifiable by scientists.  This is not the case with the Lourdes 'miracles'.  There are no characteristics of a miracle which make it identifiable by scientists.  In fact, the whole point of the investigation process the Catholic church uses is to make sure that scientists can't identify it.

Quote from: Lukvance
Again you are counting the number of "non miracle"
Of course I'm counting them.  In science, you have to record the results of all the experiments you did, not just the times when you found what you wanted to find.  This is in large part to prevent [wiki]selection bias[/wiki], such as someone only counting the successes and discarding everything else.  The millions upon millions of cases where no miracle happened should not be disregarded, at least not if you want people to take you seriously.  What if there's elements to those cases that would have ended up being relevant?  As far as you and your church are concerned, those don't matter because they aren't miracles, but in science, they can potentially matter very much.

Quote from: Lukvance
it's like counting the number of "non Higgs Boson"
It isn't even the slightest bit like that.  The details of every experiment scientists did to try to find the Higgs boson were recorded, whether or not one was actually found.  That included all the particles that they did observe, because they couldn't be sure what, if any, of them would end up being relevant after all, or a worthwhile discovery in its own right.

Quote from: Lukvance
Here is my question, if I were to tell you that each and everyone of the little lines seen on the screen that are not the Higgs Boson are "failed Higgs Boson"  will the Higgs Boson be less existent?
All this question shows is that you don't understand science very well.  Every particle observed during the experiments to find the Higgs boson was potentially relevant and was not ignored.  And even finding the Higgs boson doesn't make them irrelevant.  If nothing else, they're further confirmation of previous experimental results, and potentially a lot more than that.

Yet, to you, the only thing that matters is finding the miracles.  Nothing else matters at all.  This would be bad enough if we were just talking about subatomic particles, but you're talking about human lives here; people who go to Lourdes and come away empty-handed, if not worse off than when they came.

Quote from: Lukvance
I understand the mistake you made.
Every time you say "I understand the mistake you made", you end up being wrong.  This is no exception.  How much longer do you intend to keep saying you understand when you clearly don't?

Quote from: Lukvance
It comes from the fact that you think a "failed miracle" is any experiment in detecting a miracle that has failed. Isn't that like you telling me that every "failed Higgs Boson" is a failed experiment in detecting the "Higgs Boson"? It doesn't make sense.
It doesn't make sense because that's not what I'm thinking in the first place.  I'm thinking about the fact that as far as you and your church are concerned, the only results that matter are the ones which, to you, indicate a miracle.  In an actual experiment, there are no failures - every experiment matters, and you don't disregard anything regardless of how trivial or failed it might seem.

The discovery of pen.icillin[1] came from one of those "failed experiments" you keep saying don't matter.[/i]  Alexander Fleming, the scientist who discovered it did so totally by mistake because he left a petri dish open overnight and found it contaminated by mold.  He investigated it and found that the mold was inhibiting the growth of bacteria in the petri dish.  If he had your attitude towards science, he would have chucked it in the trash because it was contaminated and spoiled for whatever experiment he was actually planning with it.

Are you maybe starting to understand why your approach to this is so flawed?

Quote from: Lukvance
Is the experiment in the LHC designed to catch the positives while discarding all the negatives?
No, it's designed to analyze all the data that comes out of the test.

Quote from: Lukvance
Do you have a control set up to test the proportion of "Higgs Boson" in some other place in the world?
Considering how expensive it was to build the LHC, probably not yet.  They had to make sure that it existed at all before worrying about other considerations.  There are plans in place to make even larger particle colliders elsewhere in the world than the LHC, and I'm sure someone will run the same experiments that found the Higgs boson once they're built, because that's how scientists are.

Quote from: Lukvance
What kind of experiment performed at Lourdes is not controlled? Isn't the only thing that scientists do at LHC is say whether there's a known explanation or not for that line on the screen?
Nothing at Lourdes is done in the kind of a controlled manner needed for science.  The process the Catholic church uses is nothing more than a weeding-out process; only the healings which have no known explanation are even put under consideration for being miracles.  And the final decision is made by a priest who 'consults' and 'prays', which is pretty much the antithesis of science since there's no way to reproduce the results.  If some other priest simultaneously did the consulting and praying, they might come up with a different answer.

And as for the scientists who actually did the work to find the Higgs boson, depicting their work as "reading a line on the screen" is deeply insulting.  For one thing, they had to formulate the experiments they ran in the LHC, and then they had to run them, which is very meticulous, exacting work, since it involves isolating variable after variable and tweaking the experiment slightly every time.  And then they had to interpret the results, which considering that they're dealing with, is way more than "reading a line on the screen".  It involves particles that decay within 10-22 seconds.  To put this in perspective, computers generally operate at 2-3 instructions every 10-9 seconds (basically, 2-3 billion instructions per second, depending on the processor), which we can't even perceive, yet the Higgs boson decays a trillion times faster than that.

Quote from: Lukvance
If I resume. Your counter argument is based on "non miracle". This make as much sense as a "non Higgs Boson" (meaning all the others fundamental particles)
No, my counter-argument is that you don't even bother to check any of the times when healings didn't happen, and you disregard any time when a healing has a scientific explanation (and that's just for starters - there's not much point in going into the other flaws if you don't understand why this one is so important).  That's an incredibly shoddy approach for something you're claiming is scientific.  To use a very crude analogy, it's about like a child making a 'pie' out of mud and then expecting it to compare with a dish cooked by a world-class chef.

Quote from: Lukvance
You say that "non miracle" are too many for miracle to even be considered.
Nope.  I'm saying that the process used by your church to confirm miracles doesn't pay any attention to anything that isn't a clear healing and dismisses any healings that appear to have scientific explanations.  This is a serious problem, especially since the resulting 'miraculous' healings are so few in number.  It means that your results are suspect, because most of them were discarded without even being considered and the majority by far of the ones that were examined were discarded for not being 'miraculous' enough, or rather, having an actual scientific explanation.  Can you explain why having a scientific explanation rules it out from being a miracle, or is this just another thing you take for granted?

Quote from: Lukvance
The other counter argument that you put forward was that the scientist just say it is not anything else than a miracle so miracles don't exist.
I didn't say this at all.  If I had to guess, this sounds like you misunderstood me saying "just because scientists don't have an explanation for something doesn't make that something into a miracle".  Note that this is a paraphrase, as I don't remember the exact wording I used.

Quote from: Lukvance
It makes as much sense as if you were saying that the scientist just say it is not anything else than a Higgs Boson so Higgs Boson don't exist.
Leaving aside the fact that the grammar you used makes it very difficult to parse what you said, it took the scientists a year of additional testing and analysis before they were able to confirm that the unknown boson they detected in 2012 matched enough of the predicted properties of the Higgs boson to actually be one.

Quote from: Lukvance
Finally you say that the experience does not have a control group when you know that these experiences are conducted regularly in the Vatican.
Do you know what a control group actually is?  When you're running experiments on human beings, or other things where you can't count on a predictable reactions, you have to run tests on some of them where they think that the something is happening to them even though it really isn't.  The usual example is when you're testing medicine, and you give one group the medicine and another group inactive pills (placebos) which look and taste like the medicine.  That way you can get a fairly good idea of which reactions are actually due to the medicine and which ones aren't.

Based on the source you've given, I don't think the Vatican could make use of a control group even if they actually had one, because there's no way for them to determine whether a person is actually getting a miraculous healing or not until well after it's actually happened (which as its own problems, as I've described before.
 1. the forum apparently hates this word
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #248 on: June 19, 2014, 04:32:30 PM »
Of course there is a control group (in the case of the woman healing her hand the control group was other women that had their hand crushed and did not pray God to heal them)
As I suspected, you still don't understand the concept.  In a scientific experiment involving humans, you have one or more experimental groups who are actually being tested, and a control group to provide a baseline.  However, the control group cannot be aware of any differences between them and the experimental group(s), or else it spoils their usefulness as a control group.  Furthermore, you have to take the placebo effect into account - the expectation of some course of action having an effect which is then generated by the body.

In short, you cannot have an experimental group of people who prayed to YHWH (expecting it to make a difference) and a control group of people who did not pray to YHWH, because the latter group is not actually a control group (as nobody can actually control whether the prayers have an effect or not) and it disregards the placebo effect.

Quote from: Lukvance
and the results are statistically significant (meaning that there are more people instantly healed after praying God than people instantly healed after not praying God)
Oh, really?  Let's see the studies which actually show this, instead of just taking your word for it or a youtube video which claims that it's the case.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #249 on: June 19, 2014, 04:41:16 PM »
What is high level description? I gave you the link in the post #203. If you need more information about one of these "instruments" please ask away. But I think they are very explicit.
They're not terribly explicit.  At no point do they ever describe a piece of equipment used in this miracle detection process.  They do not list a part number; they do not list any kind of description at all that would allow another sentient entity to point at a piece of equipment and make a determination of 'that is a piece of equipment that can be utilized to detect a miracle' vs. 'that is not a piece of equipment that can be utilized to detect a miracle'.

It's sort of like someone asking you what planet you live on, and you responding by saying 'a planet'.

Quote
Apparently I did not understand the question (hence the "i'm not sure it applies") With your example at hand I can give you more precisely the information you are seeking. No need to insult.
To the question "What are the measurement units of a 'higgs Boson'? you answer "Some of the measurements that apply to the Higgs boson are quantifiable properties"
To the question "What are the measurement units of a 'miracle'? I answer "some of the measurements that apply to the miracle are quantifiable properties like the time it took to happen, people it happen to, how was the element before the miracle (size, weight, lenght texture...etc), how long the miracle last"
Then you shouldn't have ventured an arbitrary guess like 'one'.  You really shouldn't have.

So how do they measure the time it took for a 'miracle' to happen?  How do they know that the miracle process 'started' vs. the miracle process 'not started yet'?

And what element are you referring to exactly?

Quote
That is, indeed, incorrect. Most of the miracle does not happen at Lourdes. They happen all around the world. Consequently most people that are seeking miracles are outside of Lourdes.
Okay.

Quote
People at Lourdes are measuring if it's the hand of God or not. People in the LHC are measuring if it's the Higgs Boson or not.
There are rules (synonym of steps or processes) that one event must follow before being called Higgs Boson.
There are rules (synonym of steps or processes) that one event must follow before being called miracle. Those rules are described in the link I provided in reply #203.
Those rules you keep referring to in reply #203 are insufficient.  jaimehlers has done a much better job than I ever could of explaining why that is the case.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #250 on: June 19, 2014, 05:20:01 PM »
my counter-argument is that you don't even bother to check any of the times when healings didn't happen, and you disregard any time when a healing has a scientific explanation (and that's just for starters - there's not much point in going into the other flaws if you don't understand why this one is so important).  That's an incredibly shoddy approach for something you're claiming is scientific.  To use a very crude analogy, it's about like a child making a 'pie' out of mud and then expecting it to compare with a dish cooked by a world-class chef.
Alright I have your counter argument properly stated. Let me ask you something are there records of events that were not miraculous? Do you bother to check the times in the LHC that the "collision" never occurred (you did not started the LHC)? Are there records of times when the experience took place without the Boson Showing up? are there records of the events even if he was not miraculous?
We do not "bother to check any of the times when healings didn't happen"
We do not "bother to check any of the times when the experience didn't start"
We do not disregard any time when an event has a scientific explanation. We catalog it and study it later.
We do not disregard any time when a test didn't show the Higgs Boson. We catalog it ans study it later.

Quote
Can you explain why having a scientific explanation rules it out from being a miracle, or is this just another thing you take for granted?
I can explain. When we don't find the Higgs Boson isn't that because all the other lines showing on the screen has already a scientific explanation?
Let's say scientific A find that line X is the Higgs Boson.
Scientific B comes and say no, no, that is not it, there is another scientific explanation for that line X.
Scientific C confirm the findings of scientific B.
Line X is concluded to not be the Higgs Boson, having a scientific explanation rules it out from being a Higgs Boson
Now let's scientific A find that this event was miraculous.
Scientific B comes and say no no that is not it, there is another scientific explanation for that event.
Scientific C confirm the findings of scientific B.
The event is concluded to not be a miracle, "having a scientific explanation rules it out from being a miracle"

Quote
Do you know what a control group actually is?  When you're running experiments on human beings, or other things where you can't count on a predictable reactions, you have to run tests on some of them where they think that the something is happening to them even though it really isn't.  The usual example is when you're testing medicine, and you give one group the medicine and another group inactive pills (placebos) which look and taste like the medicine.  That way you can get a fairly good idea of which reactions are actually due to the medicine and which ones aren't.
What was the control group in the case of the Higgs boson?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #251 on: June 19, 2014, 05:28:44 PM »
Funny.

Makes an analogy between miracles and Higgs Boson


Doesn't even know what it's control group was.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #252 on: June 19, 2014, 05:33:17 PM »
What is high level description? I gave you the link in the post #203. If you need more information about one of these "instruments" please ask away. But I think they are very explicit.
They're not terribly explicit.  At no point do they ever describe a piece of equipment used in this miracle detection process.  They do not list a part number; they do not list any kind of description at all that would allow another sentient entity to point at a piece of equipment and make a determination of 'that is a piece of equipment that can be utilized to detect a miracle' vs. 'that is not a piece of equipment that can be utilized to detect a miracle'.

It's sort of like someone asking you what planet you live on, and you responding by saying 'a planet'.
Oh I see. Doctors use many equipment to learn the source of a disease. (microscopes, x-rays...etc) are you talking about those equipment. There is not one equipment but a multitude that are used to determine if the event is a miracle. They even use chaplets, holly water, tuniques, shoes... I mean every element involved in the finding is a "tool" that is used to find out if it's a miracle or not. Granted, the scientific tools as we know it stops when it comes to the Bishop to decide if it's from God or not but some other tools, spiritual ones, take place. Sometime the event is not granted the miracle status even if there is no other scientific explanation for it. That is why I include the bishop/prayer and his peers in the discovering of the action of God on earth.

Quote
So how do they measure the time it took for a 'miracle' to happen?  How do they know that the miracle process 'started' vs. the miracle process 'not started yet'?
For example the person who couldn't move her hand could move it after the miracle happened. The cure was "instantaneous". They use a "clock" to measure the time.
The hand cannot move "the process not started yet"
The hand can move "the process started"

Quote
And what element are you referring to exactly?
For example the hand of the woman. It's the element that God "touched" and healed and that is proof of his action in this world. Proving by the same act, that he exist outside our mind :)
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Offline eh!

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #253 on: June 19, 2014, 05:42:34 PM »
What is the mass, spin and parity of a "not higgs particle"???
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #254 on: June 19, 2014, 05:46:11 PM »
How do you establish a moving hand and gods presence. you actually need to detect the presence of god. god simultaneously with the presence of god.

there is no link between a moving hand and god without detection of god anymore than a falling rock and an invisible pink unicorn .
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #255 on: June 19, 2014, 07:12:36 PM »
Alright I have your counter argument properly stated. Let me ask you something are there records of events that were not miraculous?
Given that you and your church apparently have no interest in investigating the millions of people who go to Lourdes and don't have a miracle happen to them, I figure there are not.

Quote from: Lukvance
Do you bother to check the times in the LHC that the "collision" never occurred (you did not started the LHC)? Are there records of times when the experience experiment took place without the Boson Showing up?
I don't have access to their records, but I'm quite sure that they have them, because that's how scientists work.  I've done scientific experiments as well as statistical analysis, and so I know from firsthand experience just how important it is to keep full and complete records, because you never know if something that seems trivial might actually be meaningful; you also need large sample sets - the larger the better - to analyze, and you need to control the variables, so that you have as little variance as you can manage.

Quote from: Lukvance
are there records of the events even if he was not miraculous?
And you're still trying to conflate the scientific investigation which resulted in finding the Higgs boson and the Catholic church's ruling out of scientific explanations for events that it could then claim were miraculous.  Or at least I assume that's the case; if you're trying to talk about the Higgs boson being miraculous, then this is nonsense.

I modified the order of the following posts slightly, because you keep switching off which you're talking about.

Quote from: Lukvance
We do not "bother to check any of the times when healings didn't happen"
We do not disregard any time when a test didn't show the Higgs Boson. We catalog it ans study it later.
Have you ever participated in an actual investigation relating to these healings?

Quote from: Lukvance
We do not "bother to check any of the times when the experience experiment didn't start"
We do not disregard any time when an event has a scientific explanation. We catalog it and study it later.
Have you ever participated in running an actual scientific experiment?

Quote from: Lukvance
I can explain. When we don't find the Higgs Boson isn't that because all the other lines showing on the screen has already a scientific explanation?
Stop with this inane attempt to depict the results of a scientific experiment as "lines on a screen".  Seriously, stop.  You don't know what you're talking about even well enough to know just how far off you are.

Quote from: Lukvance
Let's say scientific A find that line X is the Higgs Boson.
Scientific B comes and say no, no, that is not it, there is another scientific explanation for that line X.
Scientific C confirm the findings of scientific B.
Line X is concluded to not be the Higgs Boson, having a scientific explanation rules it out from being a Higgs Boson
This.  Is.  Not.  How.  Science.  Works.  You seriously need to stop trying to cast science as this sort of inane parody so you can justify your claims of miracles being "scientifically investigated".  As if any reputable scientist anywhere would simply claim that a line of data was a Higgs boson or anything else without thoroughly investigating it first!

In 2012, when the two separate research teams each independently found an unknown boson, they were very careful not to simply claim that it was a Higgs boson, because they didn't have anywhere near enough data to satisfy their own standard of evidence.  They had to accumulate a lot more data before they felt comfortable with stating that it was a Higgs boson.  At that point, other scientists got in on the act and checked their data.  Since they presumably found no mistakes in it (as the team leaders were awarded the Nobel Prize that year), it's a fairly safe bet that they did find the Higgs boson, although they'll need to do more tests to firm up the data.

Quote from: Lukvance
Now let's scientific A find that this event was miraculous.
Scientific B comes and say no no that is not it, there is another scientific explanation for that event.
Scientific C confirm the findings of scientific B.
The event is concluded to not be a miracle, "having a scientific explanation rules it out from being a miracle"
This is so bad that it's not even funny.  Do you simply not get the concept that you need a scientific explanation of what a miracle is before you can investigate something in order to see if it is a miracle?  Trying to claim that something without a known scientific explanation might be a miracle is just a fancy way of saying that things we don't understand might be miracles.  It's an [wiki]argument from ignorance[/wiki], and repeating it will not change that.

Quote from: Lukvance
What was the control group in the case of the Higgs boson?
As elementary particles never react differently to the same stimuli, there is no need for a control group.  Control groups are only necessary in situations where scientists cannot control all the variables, such as in experiments involving human beings.  This is because human beings can trick themselves (or be tricked) into reacting differently to the same thing.  For example, if you tell someone that a certain pill is bitter, and tell someone else that the same pill is sweet, they will react differently to it even though the pill itself has no taste.
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Online Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #256 on: June 20, 2014, 07:19:59 AM »
If the location of Lourdes is not important  (other than as a storage location for miracle measuring equipment), I can only conclude by your reply that you are saying that all the people who have traveled to Lourdes to get a shot a miraculous healing had no actual need to go to Lourdes to get the miraculous healing they were seeking. Am I interpreting your posts correctly?
Yes.

Are there types of Higgs Bosons?
Does not equate.
Why? What is the difference between miracles and Higgs boson when it comes to having different types? Why one must have different types and not the other?
You are having the same trouble than jaimelhers. Thinking as miracle as something that it is not. The way I present miracle in my scientific method proof is the same way we present Higgs boson or gravity in their scientific method proof.

You STILL haven't answered my question.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #257 on: June 20, 2014, 07:37:37 AM »
Luk actually believes his miracle science is somehow the same level of science as elementary particles .


i feel guilty laughing at someone so ignorant.

do you guys actually think luk even has an arguable position? y'all just doing this for entertainment right?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #258 on: June 20, 2014, 07:53:21 AM »
^I'm trying to correct the gaps in his understanding of science.
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #259 on: June 20, 2014, 07:55:02 AM »
^I'm trying to correct the gaps in his understanding of science.

Like filling up a bucket with the bottom missing, I'd say.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #260 on: June 20, 2014, 07:57:04 AM »
^I'm trying to correct the gaps in his understanding of science.

Like filling up a bucket with the bottom missing, I'd say.

Or trying to fill up a bucket with no bucket.
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