Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 60878 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #203 on: June 18, 2014, 04:09:36 PM »
Ask question: “Why do things fall downwards?”
Do background research: “Hmmm, most things fall down to earth, but some go up!
Things that go up do so because the displacement buoyancy is greater than the force pulling them down.
What is that force that pulls things down? 

Construct hypothesis: It is something to do with relative masses.
This would explain planetary motion and why Australians do not fall off the earth!

Test with experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimetry#How_gravity_is_measured

Does it work? Yes

Analyse data and draw conclusions: http://www.universetoday.com/57713/gravity-formula/

Results align with hypothesis

Communicate results to Lukvance who will give us the formula for proving mathematically that God exists outside our minds.
Ask question: “Why do people get magically healed?”
Do background research: “Most people who get sick go the the hospital and get cured by following medical assistance, but some of them just pray and get cures without medical assistance.
What is that force that cure them?"

Construct hypothesis: It is something to do with God.
This would explain why God is living outside our head.

Test with experiment: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/downloads/how_lourdes_cures_recognized.pdf

Does it work? Yes

Analyse data and draw conclusions: http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_apparitions/approved_apparitions/lourdes/miracles1.html

Results align with hypothesis

Communicate results to you : There is a force curing people from illness. This force is God.
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Offline eh!

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #204 on: June 18, 2014, 04:18:05 PM »
Will get link when next on a PC.

not stonewalling luk has requested scientific method to prove gravity ....i provided many someone please show him.


you guys are either enjoying mocking his seeming lack of intelligence by arguing the same empty arguments ad naseum i or you are being trolled.
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #205 on: June 18, 2014, 05:12:15 PM »
First, Lukvance's initial question is still begging the question by assuming that people do heal through "magic", whatever that is.  So it should be "healed through unknown means".  Second, he apparently makes no effort to tell whether prayer has an actual effect or not; instead, he simply assumes that prayer allows some unknown force to enact healings, even though we have no means whatsoever of actually detecting this presumed force, let alone linking it to the act of prayer.  In fact, his whole case appears to be based on a non-statistical (and very possibly incorrect) correlation; that there are some people who scientists do not believe would naturally be able to heal who do in fact heal (after praying/visiting Lourdes/physically touching the water there/other things not considered/some combination thereof), and therefore this proves that his god exists.

This ignores the fact that even today, medical diagnoses are far from foolproof.  Doctors are often right, but there is plenty of room for error in their diagnoses.  Even accounting for that, there is much we don't fully understand about the human body and its healing processes, let alone the effects of belief and will on them.  Therefore, we cannot simply assume that some outside force which we can't even detect and is apparently quite picky in what it presumably affects, how it affects it, and how much of a difference it makes is worth consideration.

Imagine if gravity only worked a small percentage of the time, under certain conditions, and wasn't consistent even then.  It would not then be reasonable to consider the theory of gravity to be an acceptable scientific explanation.  The reason we can is because gravity is consistent; it always works, and its effects can be precisely measured.  Any variances can be specifically attributed to something that is related to that variance.

By comparison, his 'explanation' for the 'miraculous' healings at Lourdes doesn't even make an effort to explain why only a tiny fraction of the people who visit there are healed, let alone why the healings are so wildly inconsistent (in how they happen, in when they happen, in why they happen, and so on).  He can certainly point to his god as the reason, but by so doing, he is making his explanation non-scientific no matter how much he tries to make it look like one, because the scientific method only works when you can isolate the variable being tested for.  If that variable can change itself - say, by deciding whether or not to do something - then no test can possibly be conclusive.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Online Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #206 on: June 18, 2014, 05:16:42 PM »
"you are being trolled"

Well, duh.

Qualify the above and it will make more sense, like so: "you are being trolled, but the members of this board are largely intelligent people who like to argue, and luk keeps coming back for more, so he is being tolerated."

I frequently learn new things or make better sense of a difficult concept in these conversations. It's not really for luk's benefit that this is continuing - no one actually expects him to suddenly leap to new and improved conclusions.

Don't worry about it, one way or another, he'll eventually go away. He ought to be grateful that the site had a failure - it wiped out all the corners he had painted himself into. Given enough time, he'll back into them again.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #207 on: June 18, 2014, 05:36:10 PM »
By comparison, his 'explanation' for the 'miraculous' healings at Lourdes doesn't even make an effort to explain why only a tiny fraction of the people who visit there are healed, let alone why the healings are so wildly inconsistent (in how they happen, in when they happen, in why they happen, and so on).  He can certainly point to his god as the reason, but by so doing, he is making his explanation non-scientific no matter how much he tries to make it look like one, because the scientific method only works when you can isolate the variable being tested for.  If that variable can change itself - say, by deciding whether or not to do something - then no test can possibly be conclusive.

That reminds me..... I recall a question (I'm almost certain it came from nogodsforme) about why people had to travel to Lourdes specifically, as luk was quite insistent that the water was NOT changed in any way, and was NOT the actual source/cause (??? whatever he claimed, I can't recall the exact wording) of the miraculous healing.

Did that ever get addressed? Was there any explanation, and if so, what was it?
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #208 on: June 18, 2014, 06:16:34 PM »
Imagine if gravity only worked a small percentage of the time, under certain conditions, and wasn't consistent even then.  It would not then be reasonable to consider the theory of gravity to be an acceptable scientific explanation.  The reason we can is because gravity is consistent; it always works, and its effects can be precisely measured.  Any variances can be specifically attributed to something that is related to that variance.
Here is your counter argument. The rest of what you said was (for me) just you showing of.
You counter argument suppose that miracle works only a small percentage of the time when in fact it works every time!
I think you misunderstand the procedure that you have to follow to get the miracle.
Could you give us an example of when a miracle doesn't work?

You should be able to understand that the miracle is just the observable effect that shows you that God exist.
It is just like this little line in the LHC[1] result screen that shows you that Higgs Boson exist.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 06:23:14 PM by Lukvance »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #209 on: June 18, 2014, 06:21:32 PM »
That reminds me..... I recall a question (I'm almost certain it came from nogodsforme) about why people had to travel to Lourdes specifically, as luk was quite insistent that the water was NOT changed in any way, and was NOT the actual source/cause (??? whatever he claimed, I can't recall the exact wording) of the miraculous healing.

Did that ever get addressed? Was there any explanation, and if so, what was it?
Yes. People don't have to go to Lourdes to live a miracle. I personally lived one.
Lourdes is to miracle what the LHC is to the higgs boson.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #210 on: June 18, 2014, 06:30:59 PM »
That reminds me..... I recall a question (I'm almost certain it came from nogodsforme) about why people had to travel to Lourdes specifically, as luk was quite insistent that the water was NOT changed in any way, and was NOT the actual source/cause (??? whatever he claimed, I can't recall the exact wording) of the miraculous healing.

Did that ever get addressed? Was there any explanation, and if so, what was it?
Yes. People don't have to go to Lourdes to live a miracle. I personally lived one.
Lourdes is to miracle what the LHC is to the higgs boson.

No analogies luk. Just explain the connection between the location "Lourdes' and the occurrence of "miracles". I recall you were insistent that the water was unchanged, so what is the connection?
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #211 on: June 18, 2014, 06:35:26 PM »
No analogies luk. Just explain the connection between the location "Lourdes' and the occurrence of "miracles". I recall you were insistent that the water was unchanged, so what is the connection?
Seriously? You still asking that question. My analogy wasn't clear enough? Why did you dismiss it?
Lourdes is a place where you can measure miracles (it has all the instruments needed there). Is that clear enough for you?
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #212 on: June 18, 2014, 06:39:23 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #213 on: June 18, 2014, 06:43:43 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
Grrr. What was the scientific method I showed for!?
Of course there is!
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #214 on: June 18, 2014, 06:49:22 PM »
No analogies luk. Just explain the connection between the location "Lourdes' and the occurrence of "miracles". I recall you were insistent that the water was unchanged, so what is the connection?
Seriously? You still asking that question.

Yes, Captain Obvious, I am.

Quote
My analogy wasn't clear enough? Why did you dismiss it?

It's clarity TO ME is not relevant in this case - I'm skeptical of it's clarity to YOU. Thus far, you've not demonstrated a firm grasp of science and I'm not willing to go down whatever rabbit hole you leap into just because you went there. Just answer the question.

Quote
Lourdes is a place where you can measure miracles
??? This is meaningless.

Quote

(it has all the instruments needed there).
As is this.

Quote
Is that clear enough for you?

Not remotely. Try again please. If the water is not the source of the miracle, why do people in need of miraculous healing have to go to the water?
"Tell people that there's an invisible man in the sky that created the entire universe and the majority believe you. Tell them the paint is wet, and they have to touch it to be sure." ~George Carlin

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #215 on: June 18, 2014, 06:51:57 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
Grrr. What was the scientific method I showed for!?
Of course there is!

Oh, do tell.

(Aside to WWGHA members who are not lukvance - Am I the only one hearing Miracle Max and his lovely wife right abut now?)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #216 on: June 18, 2014, 07:00:36 PM »
If the water is not the source of the miracle, why do people in need of miraculous healing have to go to the water?
Definitively, you are having trouble with simple words.
THEY DON'T NEED TO GO!
We know of those who went because we "measured" them there.
People don't have to go to Lourdes to live a miracle. I personally lived one.
Lourdes is to miracle what the LHC is to the higgs boson.
Is that clear enough? (I said it twice and made it bigger so you might see it this time if you missed it the first time)
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #217 on: June 18, 2014, 07:14:13 PM »
If the water is not the source of the miracle, why do people in need of miraculous healing have to go to the water?
Definitively, you are having trouble with simple words.
THEY DON'T NEED TO GO!
We know of those who went because we "measured" them there.
People don't have to go to Lourdes to live a miracle. I personally lived one.
Lourdes is to miracle what the LHC is to the higgs boson.
Is that clear enough? (I said it twice and made it bigger so you might see it this time if you missed it the first time)

So why is all the miracle measuring equipment there?

What are you attempting to convey luk? Repeating yourself is not going to make your response more clear.

Are you claiming to have been miraculously healed? Or are you speaking of some other type of miracle? I've been VERY CLEAR that I'm speaking of miraculous healing, but your reply  BOTH TIMES (<--- is this really as helpful as you seem to think? I don't see it, but you seem convinced that it's effective, so I'll give it a whirl) didn't say anything about healing, you replace that with "live a miracle" which is also ambiguous and meaningless with no context as to what you think qualifies s "living a miracle".

So no, it's still not clear enough as you haven't actually answered my question yet.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #218 on: June 18, 2014, 07:16:57 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
Grrr. What was the scientific method I showed for!?
Of course there is!

Oh, do tell.



I'm going to want some follow up from you on this post too luk. In case my words are not clear, I'm asking you to tell us more about this miracle measuring equipment.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #219 on: June 18, 2014, 07:17:21 PM »
If the water is not the source of the miracle, why do people in need of miraculous healing have to go to the water?
Definitively, you are having trouble with simple words.
THEY DON'T NEED TO GO!
We know of those who went because we "measured" them there.
People don't have to go to Lourdes to live a miracle. I personally lived one.
Lourdes is to miracle what the LHC is to the higgs boson.
Is that clear enough? (I said it twice and made it bigger so you might see it this time if you missed it the first time)

You need to explain in what way Lourdes serves as a way to measure miracles.

What are the measurement units of a 'miracle'?  Percentage of individuals who received some detectable manner of healing at Lourdes vs. percentage of individuals who received some detectable manner of healing in the general populace of the globe?  I dunno but that seems reasonable, doesn't it?

But perhaps no.  Perhaps it is not a function of a greater number of miracles that occur at the location of Lourdes over locations that are not Lourdes.  Ok, fine, but then what is it, and what is the process for making a measurement?  You are making the claim that Lourdes provides some manner of detecting the presence or occurrence of miracles, so now it's time to pony up an explanation of why that is the case.

Perhaps you can try it like this:
<You insert something here> is to Lourdes as 'the fact that the energy levels of the predictions made by the existence of the Higgs boson (e.g. the curve of the path of other particles that are generated at such high energies gets affected in a way that objectively either coincides or does not coincide with the predictions made by the existence of the Higgs boson) can only be done at the LHC' is to the Higgs boson.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #220 on: June 18, 2014, 08:33:20 PM »
So why is all the miracle measuring equipment there?
I'm sorry, they are not all there. I hope I don't have to explain to you why all the measuring equipment of miracles of Lourdes are at Lourdes.

Quote
Are you claiming to have been miraculously healed? Or are you speaking of some other type of miracle?
I don't think miracles should be classified in types. Are there types of Higgs Bosons? If you want to talk about the miracle I lived I will gladly talk about it with you in another thread.
I wish ton return on the subject at hand, meaning the existence of God "proved" by the scientific method.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #221 on: June 18, 2014, 08:35:31 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
Grrr. What was the scientific method I showed for!?
Of course there is!
Oh, do tell.
I'm going to want some follow up from you on this post too luk. In case my words are not clear, I'm asking you to tell us more about this miracle measuring equipment.
Sorry, did you read Reply #203? You should find a link there with all the "tools" used to find a miracle under the "test the experiment" part.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #222 on: June 18, 2014, 08:36:41 PM »
In other words, you have no answer and do not wish to discuss miracles and Lourdes any further, lest you be forced to admit that you are making it up as you go along.

Got it. Have a nice night.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #223 on: June 18, 2014, 08:38:44 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
Grrr. What was the scientific method I showed for!?
Of course there is!
Oh, do tell.
I'm going to want some follow up from you on this post too luk. In case my words are not clear, I'm asking you to tell us more about this miracle measuring equipment.
Sorry, did you read Reply #203? You should find a link there with all the "tools" used to find a miracle under the "test the experiment" part.

No I didn't. I'm asking you to explain it. But I'm bored with you now and am going to find something else to do, so no rush. I'll check back tomorrow.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #224 on: June 18, 2014, 08:54:53 PM »
You need to explain in what way Lourdes serves as a way to measure miracles.
It is where the equipment is.

Quote
What are the measurement units of a 'miracle'?
Same as the measurement unit of an Higgs Boson. One? I'm not sure if its apply.

Quote
Percentage of individuals who received some detectable manner of healing at Lourdes vs. percentage of individuals who received some detectable manner of healing in the general populace of the globe? I dunno but that seems reasonable, doesn't it?
No.

Quote
what is the process for making a measurement?
Reply #203

Quote
Perhaps you can try it like this:
<You insert something here> is to Lourdes as 'the fact that the energy levels of the predictions made by the existence of the Higgs boson (e.g. the curve of the path of other particles that are generated at such high energies gets affected in a way that objectively either coincides or does not coincide with the predictions made by the existence of the Higgs boson) can only be done at the LHC' is to the Higgs boson.
The fact that God's action can be surely detected by using all the "tools" present in Lourdes is to miracles as 'the fact that the energy levels of the predictions made by the existence of the Higgs boson (e.g. the curve of the path of other particles that are generated at such high energies gets affected in a way that objectively either coincides or does not coincide with the predictions made by the existence of the Higgs boson) can only be done at the LHC' is to the Higgs boson.[/i]
We could detect God's action in the world (the proof of his existence) anywhere but would need to move all this equipment.
There are other places than Lourdes (ex : the Vatican) who has the necessary equipment to detect it.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #225 on: June 18, 2014, 09:02:25 PM »
"We could detect God's action in the world (the proof of his existence)"

Nope. You have not proved him to be existent. I said from the start, you are already pre supposing that god exists, in order to answer questions about his actions.

You cannot therefore, say that his actions, (which are based on the unproven assumption) prove he is real.

You take a conclusion drawn from an unsubstantiated premises, and then use it to try and proof the said premises. Try again.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #226 on: June 18, 2014, 09:40:19 PM »
"We could detect God's action in the world (the proof of his existence)"

Nope. You have not proved him to be existent. I said from the start, you are already pre supposing that god exists, in order to answer questions about his actions.

You cannot therefore, say that his actions, (which are based on the unproven assumption) prove he is real.

You take a conclusion drawn from an unsubstantiated premises, and then use it to try and proof the said premises. Try again.
What do you mean? Did we not suppose the existence of the Higgs Boson before looking for it?
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Offline Airyaman

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #227 on: June 18, 2014, 09:41:26 PM »
You mean there's such a thing as "miracle measuring equipment"?  :?
Grrr. What was the scientific method I showed for!?
Of course there is!

Oh, I thought this was the science fiction section. Carry on.
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #228 on: June 18, 2014, 09:54:53 PM »
"We could detect God's action in the world (the proof of his existence)"

Nope. You have not proved him to be existent. I said from the start, you are already pre supposing that god exists, in order to answer questions about his actions.

You cannot therefore, say that his actions, (which are based on the unproven assumption) prove he is real.

You take a conclusion drawn from an unsubstantiated premises, and then use it to try and proof the said premises. Try again.
What do you mean? Did we not suppose the existence of the Higgs Boson before looking for it?
We "theorised" based on observed scientific data. Then bam. We found it.

Now you guys....haven't even gotten past agreeing on what and who god is.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #229 on: June 19, 2014, 12:06:36 AM »
Here is your counter argument. The rest of what you said was (for me) just you showing of.
Or, at least, that's a convenient way to dismiss it without reading (or possibly even understanding it).  That is the problem here; every time someone says anything that contradicts your belief that miracles somehow 'prove' God's existence, you ignore it or claim it's not relevant without explaining why.  And when they explain why it was actually relevant, you either disregard it the same way or attempt to copy it for your own beliefs without really understanding it.

Quote from: Lukvance
You counter argument suppose that miracle works only a small percentage of the time when in fact it works every time!
No, miracles don't work all the time.  Otherwise they would always happen to everyone wherever they happened to be and would not be particularly special.  Your problem here is that you're only counting the hits and ignoring the far greater proportion of misses.  It's like crowing about hitting the bullseye on a dartboard when you had to throw a million darts at it just to get that one bullseye, and actually hit the dartboard a thousand times or so in total.  It's a lot less impressive when you actually look at the number of negatives it took to reach the handful of positives, isn't it?

Quote from: Lukvance
I think you misunderstand the procedure that you have to follow to get the miracle.
No, I understood it just fine.  I also understood that in a hundred fifty years, with visitors probably numbering well over a hundred million by now, there have been a total of 67 healings that the Catholic Church has claimed were miracles.  67 out of a hundred million isn't even a rounding error, and trying to excuse it by saying that a person doesn't understand the procedure or whatever else you come up with won't change that.

Quote from: Lukvance
Could you give us an example of when a miracle doesn't work?
Every single person who visits Lourdes hoping for miraculous healing and doesn't get it.  Those are all miracles that didn't happen - people who went there hoping and praying for a miraculous cure and were disappointed.  Instead, you point to the 67 "confirmed miracles" (less than one every two years, I might add) and claim that they're proof of God, and ignore the millions of people who go there yearly and get nothing for their efforts, even though every single one of them falsifies your claim about miracles happening at Lourdes.  All that does is sabotage your claim and leave you open to criticism of your methods.

Quote from: Lukvance
You should be able to understand that the miracle is just the observable effect that shows you that God exist.
Repeating something over and over won't change whether it's actually true or not.  And the fact is that your 'experiment' is only designed to catch the positives while discarding all the negatives.  You don't even have a control set up to test the proportion of "miraculous cures" in some other heavily-visited place, which is absolutely critical for any experiment.

Quote from: Lukvance
It is just like this little line in the LHC[1] result screen that shows you that Higgs Boson exist.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider
Not the same thing at all, Lukvance.  You see, the salient point that you just keep missing is that scientists can actually perform controlled experiments using the LHC.  Yet the only thing that scientists do at Lourdes is say whether there's a known explanation or not; I'll bet the Catholic Church doesn't even bother to track the numbers of cures that do have some known scientific explanation.  If you limited the roles of scientists at the LHC to saying whether there was a known scientific explanation for the results and had a priest there to pray to God to see what the source of the results were, it wouldn't be scientific either.
Nullus In Verba, aka "Take nobody's word for it!"  If you can't show it, then you don't know it.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #230 on: June 19, 2014, 06:32:03 AM »
The answer to the question here is we do not know.  End of discussion.  Lukvance does not know.  He just thinks he does.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #231 on: June 19, 2014, 06:46:44 AM »
LHC - visible, detailed manuals describing every detail of its functions and purpose. its creations are predicted, repeatable, consistent, falsifiable, can be perfomed by anyone with appropriatte training and will yield same results, can be reproduced anywhere on the planet. and reproduce the same results, actually does something, can be witnessed by anyone anytime ....


miracles at lourdes....?




god....?
some skepisms,
1. "I have not seen God. I have felt the invisible presence"
2. What if there is a rock in the middle of a road, a blind person is speeding towards it, ...they say that they can't see it.   Would you recommend him to keep speeding?