Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 13808 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #174 on: June 17, 2014, 08:59:29 AM »
I agree with you, existence in the mind does not automatically equate to existence outside of the mind. But it is a special case here. We are talking about the greatest possible being. When we talk about that being and because he is the greatest, this rule does not apply.

This is called "special pleading".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading

No. Is saying that a plastic chair is made of plastic, special pleading?
No, it would not. You are not claiming anything for the chair other than it is made of plastic, and you have defined a plastic chair as one made of plastic – it is a definition, it is not an argument. We are in agreement that plastic chairs exist and are plastic.

However, you are claiming that, unlike all other things that exist only in the mind and nowhere else, the greatest possible being, if it exists in the mind, must also exist in reality.

This is "special pleading" as you have no evidence to make an exception to the rule.

I don’t know how you missed that.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 09:04:27 AM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #175 on: June 17, 2014, 10:12:33 AM »

This is "special pleading" as you have no evidence to make an exception to the rule.

I don’t know how you missed that.

Tolling or sheer stupidity...I can't think of another option.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #176 on: June 17, 2014, 10:38:17 AM »
Here we were at the point where I asked someone to present me with the scientific method used for Gravity so that I could apply it to God's doing in this world.
To help us "The Scientific Method":

Are you claiming that the scientific method is a valid tool to use in proving the existence of your concept of "God" (as a separate entity - separate from human brains)?

Yes or no.

The reason I would like to have you clarify this for us is due to this comment you had previously made:

Beside testimony and logic there are no other evidence for the existence of something immaterial outside your brain.
I gave you testimony.
I gave you logic proof.
What more do you want? The impossible? The thing that even yourself cannot conceive?
You want me to respond to what? I don't see any question.

Your answer?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #177 on: June 17, 2014, 11:25:22 AM »
Maybe.  Define "gravity", and define "god", and I may take you up on it.
Hmm How about those? Can you work with that?
God : An impersonal and universal spiritual presence or force; immaterial being that exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
Gravity : Force exercised by two bodies onto each other;  immaterial thing that exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #178 on: June 17, 2014, 11:31:08 AM »
However, you are claiming that, unlike all other things that exist only in the mind and nowhere else, the greatest possible being, if it exists in the mind, must also exist in reality.

This is "special pleading" as you have no evidence to make an exception to the rule.

Here is how I see you "counter argument", for a plastic chair :
"However, I am claiming that, unlike all other chairs and nothing else, the plastic chair, if it's a chair, must also be in plastic."
I don't see how this could be considered as a counter argument or special pleading.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #179 on: June 17, 2014, 11:32:22 AM »
Tolling or sheer stupidity...I can't think of another option.

Simple bias
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/10/politics-bad-math-study_n_4060350.html

delusion
compartmentalization
mental illness/ brain damage
posting under the influence of drugs

there may be others.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #180 on: June 17, 2014, 11:34:23 AM »
Lukvance, smiting people for insults isn't going to help the discussion either.  Jetson said insults were against the rules now; you can report them to a moderator instead of smiting the person.  And to be honest, smiting someone for behavior you don't like generally gives them an incentive to do it again.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #181 on: June 17, 2014, 11:36:03 AM »
Here we were at the point where I asked someone to present me with the scientific method used for Gravity so that I could apply it to God's doing in this world.
To help us "The Scientific Method":
Are you claiming that the scientific method is a valid tool to use in proving the existence of your concept of "God" (as a separate entity - separate from human brains)?
Yes or no.
The reason I would like to have you clarify this for us is due to this comment you had previously made:
Beside testimony and logic there are no other evidence for the existence of something immaterial outside your brain.
I gave you testimony.
I gave you logic proof.
What more do you want? The impossible? The thing that even yourself cannot conceive?
You want me to respond to what? I don't see any question.
Your answer?
No.
I think that it would be a good exercise to do it as a scientific experiment. Plus you seem to consider it as a good tool to prove the existence of something immaterial so it would go a long way to prove my point that God is indeed real.
Nevertheless it was not the scientific experiment that convinced me that God was real.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #182 on: June 17, 2014, 11:38:09 AM »
Lukvance, smiting people for insults isn't going to help the discussion either.  Jetson said insults were against the rules now; you can report them to a moderator instead of smiting the person.  And to be honest, smiting someone for behavior you don't like generally gives them an incentive to do it again.
Thank you. I did both :)
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #183 on: June 17, 2014, 12:11:51 PM »
No.
I think that it would be a good exercise to do it as a scientific experiment.

So, you think it would be a good exercise to do a scientific experiment using a hypothesis (Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains) that according to your own words a conclusion cannot be reached using the scientific method? Ok.

Quote
Plus you seem to consider it as a good tool to prove the existence of something immaterial so it would go a long way to prove my point that God is indeed real.

Really? Is that how you see this working? You appear to be operating under the false assumption that proving the existence of a specific example of "something immaterial" equates to help proving the existence of a different, specific example of "something immaterial". The validity of each and every separate hypothesis you plug in to the equation must be tested on its own merits.

i.e. Proving the existence of "ghosts" does not equate to proving the existence of "souls".

Continuing with the mention of gravity, are you claiming that "God" and "gravity" are on equal footing where the same conclusion (they exist as separate entities - separate from human brains) can be reached for both by proving the existence of one or the other?

Quote
Nevertheless it was not the scientific experiment that convinced me that God was real.

Good thing for you, then, because it cannot and has not.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #184 on: June 17, 2014, 01:00:57 PM »

This is "special pleading" as you have no evidence to make an exception to the rule.

I don’t know how you missed that.

Tolling or sheer stupidity...I can't think of another option.

I mean "trolling" or sheer stupidity...though in this case they don't seem to be exclusive from each other.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #185 on: June 17, 2014, 02:11:33 PM »
Continuing with the mention of gravity, are you claiming that "God" and "gravity" are on equal footing where the same conclusion (they exist as separate entities - separate from human brains) can be reached for both by proving the existence of one or the other?
No. I just want an example of a "good" scientific method so mine would be as good. I chose Gravity because of it's immaterial status.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #186 on: June 17, 2014, 02:13:46 PM »
Could we stop postponing the proof of Gravity? It's been already 13 posts since I asked. No wonder these discussion are so long...
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Offline Don_Quixote

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #187 on: June 17, 2014, 02:15:54 PM »
Could we stop postponing the proof of Gravity? It's been already 13 posts since I asked. No wonder these discussion are so long...

Throw a ball from your hand to the floor. There, you just tested gravity.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #188 on: June 17, 2014, 02:21:25 PM »
Continuing with the mention of gravity, are you claiming that "God" and "gravity" are on equal footing where the same conclusion (they exist as separate entities - separate from human brains) can be reached for both by proving the existence of one or the other?
No. I just want an example of a "good" scientific method so mine would be as good. I chose Gravity because of it's immaterial status.

This is what I find perplexing. Whether or not anyone here provides you with a "good scientific method" in regards to gravity should have no bearing one way or the other to you since, as you have already stated, your "immaterial being" by it's very nature/definition cannot be proven through the use of the scientific method.

You would be, in essence, using the example of gravity to build a hypothesis for "God" that cannot possibly reach it's own conclusion due to the very argument you yourself have already stated.

I wonder, though... is it your intent to show that ultimately gravity cannot be proven through the use of the scientific method?
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #189 on: June 17, 2014, 04:05:56 PM »
I wonder, though... is it your intent to show that ultimately gravity cannot be proven through the use of the scientific method?
I think I told you what was my intent already.
I just want an example of a "good" scientific method so mine would be as good. I chose Gravity because of it's immaterial status.
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Online SevenPatch

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #190 on: June 17, 2014, 06:25:56 PM »
It is also irrelevant. Whether an object or being is "greatest" in the mind does not automatically equate to existence outside of the mind.

Yes it does! That's the proof we are talking about. This comment is as if you just wrote "I's also irrelevant. Your proof is wrong because I said so". This is not an argument. It looks like one but is not.

Actually it is a solid argument.  You, Lukvance, have offered no supporting evidence that an object or being must exist in reality because it exists in the mind which would be “greater”.  Your “proof” is nothing more than an empty assertion.  Just because you assert something, doesn’t mean it is true, you must demonstrate that it is true or provide examples.  In fact, if your logic were true then pretty much anything and everything we can imagine would exist in reality.

For example:

“If the greatest possible flat Earth exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality.  If it only exists in the mind, a greater flat Earth is possible – one which exists in the mind and in reality.  Of course this flat Earth would exist as separate from human brains”.

“If the greatest possible round Earth exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality.  If it only exists in the mind, a greater round Earth is possible – one which exists in the mind and in reality.  Of course this round Earth would exist as separate from human brains”.

“if the greatest possible donut Earth exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality.  If it only exists in the mind, a greater donut Earth is possible – one which exists in the mind and in reality.  Of course this donut Earth would exist as separate from human brains”.

Even if something existing in reality can be considered greater than if it only existed in the mind, there is nothing which guarantees that it actually exists in reality.  Your use of the word “must” is not accepted because you’ve not proven that it “must” exist in reality.  If you were to prove that “it must exist in reality”, then you would prove that the Earth is flat, round and donut shaped, all at the same time.

You would prove that flying horses, flying pigs, unicorns, leprechauns, Freddy Krueger, Santa Clause, The Hulk, fairies and everything imaginable exists in reality all simply because they “must” exist in reality as that would be “greater” than only existing in our minds.
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline Defiance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #191 on: June 17, 2014, 06:36:48 PM »
Why must it exist out of mind, Luk?
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #192 on: June 17, 2014, 06:48:17 PM »
Here is how I see you "counter argument", for a plastic chair :
"However, I am claiming that, unlike all other chairs and nothing else, the plastic chair, if it's a chair, must also be in plastic."
I don't see how this could be considered as a counter argument or special pleading.
You really do not see, do you?

You create a rule that says that things that exist in the mind do not have to exist in reality.
You then say that there is an exception to this rule, and that exception is the GPB

Why is the GBP an exception?

In the case of the plastic chair there is no rule and therefore the plastic chair cannot be an exception to a rule that does not exist.

Your argument is not parallel to the question in the thread's title.

If I were to say,
"Every chair that was ever made has a seat." then we have a rule.

If I then say, "But this rule does not apply to the mysterious plastic chair of Rheims which does not  have a seat and that is why the world goes round." I have used "special pleading" for the chair. I have made it an exception to the rule and granted it magical powers, which is unlike all other chairs and I have not explained why this is so.

Essentially, special pleading involves someone attempting to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception.

Once again: your "plastic chair" analogy has no rules, so it is not a relevant example. But your "if the GPB exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality." has rules for other imaginary beings but why this rule does not apply to the GPB is unexplained.

I hope I have helped.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 06:49:55 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #193 on: June 17, 2014, 08:16:23 PM »
In the case of the plastic chair there is no rule and therefore the plastic chair cannot be an exception to a rule that does not exist.
There is a rule : "all chairs are not automatically made in plastic." But in the particular case of the plastic chair...etc
I hope I have helped too
But before we get back to that point could we move forward with the discussion? I was asking for a proof of Gravity in the form of scientific method.
Do you have one?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 08:23:10 PM by Lukvance »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #194 on: June 17, 2014, 08:22:42 PM »
Actually it is a solid argument.  You, Lukvance, have offered no supporting evidence that an object or being must exist in reality because it exists in the mind which would be “greater”.  Your “proof” is nothing more than an empty assertion.  Just because you assert something, doesn’t mean it is true, you must demonstrate that it is true or provide examples.  In fact, if your logic were true then pretty much anything and everything we can imagine would exist in reality.

For example:

“If the greatest possible flat Earth exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality.  If it only exists in the mind, a greater flat Earth is possible – one which exists in the mind and in reality.  Of course this flat Earth would exist as separate from human brains”.

“If the greatest possible round Earth exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality.  If it only exists in the mind, a greater round Earth is possible – one which exists in the mind and in reality.  Of course this round Earth would exist as separate from human brains”.

“if the greatest possible donut Earth exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality.  If it only exists in the mind, a greater donut Earth is possible – one which exists in the mind and in reality.  Of course this donut Earth would exist as separate from human brains”.

Even if something existing in reality can be considered greater than if it only existed in the mind, there is nothing which guarantees that it actually exists in reality.  Your use of the word “must” is not accepted because you’ve not proven that it “must” exist in reality.  If you were to prove that “it must exist in reality”, then you would prove that the Earth is flat, round and donut shaped, all at the same time.

You would prove that flying horses, flying pigs, unicorns, leprechauns, Freddy Krueger, Santa Clause, The Hulk, fairies and everything imaginable exists in reality all simply because they “must” exist in reality as that would be “greater” than only existing in our minds.
Thank you your examples made it easier to understand where DoS was coming from. I now have material to discuss.
But before we get back to that point could we move forward with the discussion? I was asking for a proof of Gravity in the form of scientific method.
Do you have one?
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Offline Defiance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #195 on: June 17, 2014, 08:35:42 PM »
Newton was pretty smart. Here's the Law of Newtonian Gravity.

Interesting read:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_law_of_universal_gravitation

Notice how it even has a formula to be applied that works every single time.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.

Offline eh!

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #196 on: June 17, 2014, 09:25:02 PM »
oh luk wants scientific method for proof of gravity, please refute these luk, this is just one small aprt of one experiment. please read every detail and refute them. luk has me on ignore so can someone re-post these, more in a follow up post:

Data Analysis
?Ultra High Resolution Science Data Extraction for the Gravity Probe B Gyro and Telescope
Richard Van Patten, Ray DiEsposti, John V. Breakwell, SPIE Proceedings Vol. 619, 23-24, January 1986.
?The Gravity Probe B 'Niobium Bird' Experiment Verifying the Data Reduction Scheme for Estimating the Relativistic Precession of Earth-Orbiting Gyroscopes
H. Uematsu, B. W. Parkinson, J. M. Lockhart, B. Muhlfelder,Spaceflight Mechanics 1993, Vol. 82, Advances in the Astronautical Sciences.
?The Stanford Relativity Mission, Niobium Bird. Verification of the Science Mission by Experimental Application of a New Nonlinear Estimation Algorithm
G. T. Haupt, G.Gutt, J. M. Lockhart, N. J. Kasdin, G. M. Keiser, B. W. Parkinson, 18th Annual AAS Guidance and Control Conference, Keystone, Colorado, February 1-5, 1995.
?An Optimal Recursive Iterative Algorithm for Discrete Nonlinear Least-Squares Estimation
G. Haupt, N. Kasdin, G. Keiser, and B. Parkinson, AIAA Guidance, Navigation, andControl Conference, August 7-10, 1995 AIAA-95-3218.
?Data Reduction, Error and Analysis and Identification of Systemic Errors in the Gravity Probe B Experiment
M. I. Heifetz. C.W. F. Everitt, G. M. Keiser, A. S. Silbergleit, Proceedings of the Eighth Marcel Grossman Meeting on General Relativity. Ed: Tsvi Piran, World Scientific, Singapore, Part A, pp 259-268, 1999.
?Data Analysis in the Gravity Probe B Relativity Experiment
M. I. Heifetz, G. M. Keiser, Proceedings of the Second International Conference on Information Fusion, Volume II, FUSION-99.
Back to Top

Gyroscope
?Gravity Probe B: III. The Precision Gyroscope
Y. M. Xiao, et al., Proceedings of the Sixth Marcel Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity, Kyoto, Japan, eds. H. Sato and T. Nakamura, World Scientific, pp. 394-398, 1991
?Estimation of Gyroscope Polhode Motion Using Trapped Magnetic Flux
C. E. Cohen, G. M. Keiser, B. W. Parkinson, Reprinted from Journal of Guidance, Control and Dynamics, Vol. 15, Number 1 pp. 152-158, January-February 1992.
?Observation of the London Moment and Trapped Flux in Precision Gyroscopes
Y. M. Xiao, W. Felson, C. H. Wu, G. M. Keiser, J. P. Turneaure, Proceedings of the Applied Superconductivity Conference, Chicago, Illinois, August, 1992.
?Magnetic Flux Distribution on a Spherical Superconducting Shell
Y. Xiao, S. Buchman, G. M. Keiser, B. Muhlfelder, J. P. Turneaure, C.H. Wu, Physica B, 194-196, 65-66, North-Holland, 1994.
?Trapped Flux Reduction in a Spherical Niobium Shell at 1 mG
R. W. Brumley, S. Buchman, Y. M. Xiao, Physica B 194-196, 1793-1794, 1994.
?A Low Temperature Gyroscope Clock for Gravitational Redshift Experiment
S. Buchman, et al.
?An Ultra High Vacuum Low Temperature Gyroscope Clock
T. Walter, J. P. Turneaure, S. Buchman, C. W. F. Everitt, G. M. Keiser, Physica B, Proceedings of the 19th International Conference on Low Temperature Physics LT-19, ed. David S. Betts, Brighton, Sussex, p. 155 August 1990.
?Critical States in 2D Disk-shaped Type-II Superconductors in Periodic External Magnetic Field
J. Zhu, J. Mester, J. Lockhart, J. P. Turneaure, Physica (C212). pp. 216-222, 1993.
?Field-dependent Critical Currents in Thin Nb Superconducting Disks
J. Zhu, J. Lockhart, J. P. Turneaure, Physica C, Vol. 241, pp. 17-24, 1995.
?Multilayer Films of TiC, Ti and Cu for the Gravity Probe B Relativity Mission Gyroscopes
P. Zhou et al., presented at ICMCTF-95, San Diego, California, April 24-28, 1995, Surface & Coatings Technology 76-77 516-520 (1995).
?Gravity Gradient Gyroscope Drifts in the NASA Relativity Mission/Gravity Probe A Experiment
N. Jeremy Kasdin, Christian Gauthier, The Journal of the Astronautical Sciences, Vol. 44, pp. 129-147,No. 2, April-June 1996
?The Design and Testing of the Gravity Probe B Suspension and Charge Control Systems
Saps Buchman, William Bencze, Robert Brumley, Bruce Clarke, G. M. Keiser, W. W. Hansen Experimental Physics Laboratory, Stanford University, 1998 The American Institute of Physics 1-56396-848-7/98
?The Expected Performance of the Gravity Probe B Electrically Suspended Gyroscopes as Differential Accelerometers
G. M. Keiser, W. Bencze, D. Debra, Second International LISA Symposium on the Detection and Observation of Gravitational Waves in Space, AIP Conference 1998, Proceedings 456, p 188.
?Cryogenic Gyroscopes for the Relativity Mission
S. Buchman, C. W. F. Everitt, Brad Parkinson, J. P. Turneaure, G. M. Keiser, to be published in Physica B (LT 22, 1999).
Back to Top

Isolation of the Science Unit
?On Eddy Currents from Moving Point Sources of Magnetic Field in the Gravity Probe B Experiment
S.Silbergleit, G.M.Keiser, Integral methods in Science and Engineering, Volume One: Analytical Methods, Eds. C.Costanda, J.Saranen, S.Seikala, Longman, 1997, 169 Ð 173.
?Phase-Lock Roll Control for Inertially-Pointing Spacecraft by Correlations of Star Intensity Profiles with a Stored Reference
B. W. Parkinson, J. R. Crerie, 13th Annual AAS Guidance and Control Conference, Keystone, Colorado, February 3-7, 1990.
?Support Dependent Torques in the Relativity Gyroscope Experiment
G. M. Keiser, Proceedings of the Fourth Marcel Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity, ed. R. Ruffini, North-Holland, Amsterdam, pp. 465-475, Elsevier Science Publishers 1986.
?Gravity Probe B Gyroscope Charge Control Using Field-Emission Cathodes
S. Buchman, T. Quinn, G. M. Keiser, D. Gill, J. Vac. Sci. Technol. B11 (2), March/April, 1993.
?Cosmic Radiation Issues for Gravitational Experiments in Space
S. Buchman, Y. Jafry, Proceedings of the XXXIInd Rencontres de Moriond,Very High Energy Phenomena in the Universe, Series: Moriond Workshop,
?Gyroscopes and Charge Control for the Relativity Mission Gravity Probe B
Saps Buchman, C. W. F. Everitt, B. Parkinson, J. P. Turneaure, R. Brumley, D.Gill, G. M. Keiser, Y. Xiao, Proceedings of the 32nd COSPAR, Scientific Assembly in Nagoya, Japan, July 12-19 July, 1998. To be published in Advances inSpace Research. Published Adv, Space Res. 25(6) 1181, Year 2000.
?General Treatment of Geodetic and Lense - Thirring effects on an Orbiting Gyroscope
R.J.Adler, A.S.Silbergleit, Nonlinear Gravitodynamics. The Lense - Thirring Effect, Eds. R. Ruffini, C. Sigizmondi, World Scientific, New Jersey-London-Singapore-Hong-Kong, 2003, 145 Ð 154.
?Classical Torque Errors in Gravity Probe B Experiment
A.S.Silbergleit, M.I. Heifetz, G.M. Keiser, Nonlinear Gravitodynamics. The Lense Ð Thirring Effect, Eds. R. Ruffini, C. Sigizmondi, World Scientific, New Jersey-London-Singapore-Hong-Kong, 2003, 155 Ð 171.
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Navigation
?Twenty Milliarcsec Pointing System for the Rolling GP-B Spacecraft
B. W. Parkinson, N. J. Kasdin, Aerospace Century XXI, Vol. 66, Advances in the Astronautical Sciences, AAS88-005, 1988.
?GP-B Orbit Modeling and Injection Requirements
P. Axelrad, R. H.Vassar, B. W. Parkinson, AAS91-164, Winter of 1990
?Flight Tests of Attitude Determination Using GPS Compared Against an Inertial Navigation Unit
C. E. Cohen, B. D. McNally, B. W. Parkinson, ION National Technical Meeting, San Francisco, California, January 1993.
?GPS Receiver Satellite/Antenna Selection Algorithm for the Stanford Gravity Probe B Relativity Mission
J. Li, A. Ndili, L. Ward, S. Buchman, The Institute of Navigation conference held in San Diego, CA, January 25-27, 1999. Proceedings of 1999 National Technical Meeting, pp.541-550.
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Optics
?Optical Homogeneity of Gyroscope Blanks for the Gravity Probe B Experiment
J. M. De Freitas, M. A. Player, presented at the Applied Optics and Opto-electronic Conference, University of York, UK, September 5-8, 1994.
?Ultrahigh Precision Measurements of Optical Heterogeneity of High Quality Fused Silica
J. M. DeFreitas, M. A. Player, Applied Physics Letter 66 (26) June 26, 1995.
?Polarization Effects in Heterodyne Interferometry
J. M. DeFretias, M. A. Player, Journal of Modern Optics, Vol. 42, No. 9, 1875-1899, 1995.
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Project Management Papers
?Gradiometry Coexperiments on the Gravity Probe B and STEP Missions
M. Tapley, J. V. Breakwell, C. W. F. Everitt, R. Van Patten, P. Worden, Jr., Adv. Space Res. Vol. II, No. 6, p. (6) 182, 1991.
?The Gravity Probe-B Relativity Gyroscope Experiment: Approach to a Flight Mission
J. P. Turneaure, C. W. F. Everitt, B. W. Parkinson, Proceedings of the Fourth Marcel Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity, ed. R.ÊRuffini, North-Holland, Amsterdam, pp. 411-464, Elsevier Science Publishers 1986.
?Stanford Relativity Gyro Experiment-Preface
C. W. F. Everitt, Preface, Stanford Relativity Gyro Experiment, (NASA Gravity Probe B SPIE Proceedings, Vol. 619, 23-24, January 1986.
?The Gravity Probe B Relativity Mission
Sasha Buchman. C. W. F. Everitt, B. Parkinson, J. P. turneaure, D. DeBra, D. Bardas, W. Bencze, R. Brumley, D. Gill, G. Gutt, D. H. Gwo, G. M. Keiser, J. Lipa, J. Lockhart, J. Mester, B. Muhlfelder, M. Taber, S. Wang, Y. Xiao, and P. Zhou , Proceedings of the 32nd COSPAR Scientific Assembly in Nagoya, Japan, July 12- 19 July, 1998. To be published in Advances in Space Research. Published Adv. Space Res. 25(6), 1177, Year 2000.
?Co-Co-Experiments in Gravitational Physics with GP-B and STEP
M. B. Tapley, C. W. F. Everitt, Adv. Space Res. Vol. 13, No. 7, pp. (7) 77-(7) 80, Great Britain 1993.
?Development of the Gravity Probe B Flight Mission
J. P. Turneare, C. W. F. Everitt, et al, (submitted to Adv. In Space Research) (Unpublished as at May 17, 2000) COSPAR 1996
?Hardware Development for Gravity Probe
D. Bardas, W.S. Cheung, D. Gill, R. Hacker, G. M. Keiser, J. A. Lipa, M. Macgirvin, T. Saldinger, J. P. Turneaure,M. S. Wooding, Stanford Unviversity, J. M. Lockhart Stanford and San Francisco University, SPIE Proceedings, Vol. 619, 23-24, Los Angeles, California, January 1986.
?Gravity Probe B Payload Verification and Test Program
M. A. Taber, D. Bardas, et. al, .Adv. Cryo. Eng. 47 (AIP Conf. Proc. 613), 1241 (2002).
?Multisensor Data Integration in the NASA/Stanford Gravity Probe B Relativity Mission
M. I. Heifetz, G. M. Keiser, A. S. Krechetov, and A. S. Silbergleit, Proceedings of the Third International Conference on Information Fusion, July 10-13, 2000, Paris, France.
?Systems Engineering for the Gravity Probe B Program
Lou S. Young, (NASA Gravity Probe B) SPIE Proceedings Vol. 619, 23-24, January 1986.
?Credibility of GP-B's Gyroscope Test of General Relativity
D. Debra, B. Parkinson, G. Keiser, C. W. F. Everitt, S. Buchman,(0.2milliarcseconds per year), Gravity Probe B Stanford University. Presentation at the 25th Annual AAS Guidance and Control Conference, February 6-10 2002, Breckenridge, Colorado, Sponsored by Rocky Mountain Section.
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Readout System Papers
?An Ultralow Noise Amplifier for Superconductive Detectors
G. M. Gutt, J. S. Kim , M. R. Condron II, J. M. Lockhart, B. Muhlfelder, Third International Superconductive Electronics Conference, University of Strathclyde, Glasgow, Scotland, June 25-27, 1991.
?Noise Measurements on DC-SQUIDs with Varied Design
M. R. Condron II, G. M. Gutt, B. Muhlfelder, J. M. Lockhart, J. P. Turneaure, M. E. Huber, M. W. Cromar, E. K. Houseman, H. Koch and H. LYbbig, Springer-Verlag, Berlin, pp. 312-6, 1992.
?Evaluation of GaAs FETs for Cryogenic Readout
R. K. Kirschmann, S. V. Lemoff, J. A. Lipa, Proceedings from Conference on Infrared Readout Electronics, Orlando, Florida, SPIE Vol. 1684 April, 1992.
?A Method for Simulating a Flux-Locked dc SQUID
G. M. Gutt, N. J. Kasdin, M. R. Condron II, B. Muhlfelder, J. M. Lockhart, M. W. Cromar, Paper EBC-2, 1992, Applied Superconductivity Conference, Chicago, Illinois, August, 1992. Being considered for publication in the IEEE Transactions on Applied Superconductivity.
?Production of Ultralow Magnetic Fields for Gravity Probe B (GP-B)
M. A. Taber, D. O. Murray, J. M. Lockhart, D. J. Frank, D. Donegan, 1993 Cryogenic Engineering Conference. To be published in Advances in Cryogenic Engineering, Vol. 39, 77, 1993.
?Further Evaluation of GaAsFETs for Cryogenic Readout
R. K. Kirschman, J. A. Lipa, Proceedings from Conference on Infrared Detectors and Instrumentation, SPIE Vol. 1946, pp. 350-364, April, 1993.
?Charge Measurement
Saps Buchman, Stanford University, John Mester, Stanford University, T. J. Sumner, Imperial College, by CRC Press LLC, 1999. The Measurement, Instrumentation, and Sensors Handbook.
?Testing the GP-B Telescope Readout Electronics on a Flight Quality Telescope
S. Wang, D-H Gwo, K. A. Bower, L. W. Huff, R. K. Kirschman, J. A. Lipa, M. Jhabvala, S. Babu, N. Das, J. Phys. IV France 8 (1998)
?SQUID Readout and Ultra-Low Magnetic Fields for Gravity Probe B (GP-B)
J. M. Lockhart, (NASA Gravity Probe B) SPIE Proceedings Vol. 619, 23-24, January 1986.
?A Robust SQUID System for Space Use
B. Muhlfelder, J. M. Lockhart, M. Luo, T. McGinnis, Proceedings of the Eighth Marcel Grossman Meeting on General Relativity. Ed: Tsvi Piran, World Scientific, Singapore, Part A, pp 1154-1159, 1999.
?Precise Trapped Flux Signal Analysis in Gravity Probe B Experiment
Elliot Mandel, Physics Undergraduate Honors Thesis, supervised by Alexander S. Silbergleit, June 2000.
?The Gravity Probe B Gyroscope Readout System
B. Muhlfelder, J. M. Lockhart and G. M. Gutt, 2003 COSPAR Adv. Space Res. Vol. 32, No. 7, pp. 1397-1400, 2003.
?Fabrication and characterization of low-Noise Cryogenic Si JFETs
R. T. Goldberg, M. D. Jhabvala, Solid State Device Development Branch, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center Greenbelt, Maryland 20771, R. K. Kirschman, Suwen Wang, D.-H Gwo, J. A. Lipa, Hansen
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Program Status
?The Gravity Probe B Relativity Gyroscope Experiment: An Update on Progress
B. W. Parkinson, C. W. F. Everitt, J. P. Turneaure, Aerospace Century XXI, Vol. 64, Advances in Astronautical Sciences, AAS 86-319, San Diego, California, 1987.
?Results from the First Integrated System Tests of the Gravity Probe B Experiment
M. Taber, et al., Proceedings of the First William Fairbank Meeting on Relativistic Gravitational Experiments in Space, Rome, Italy, eds. M. Demianski and C. W. F. Everitt, Advanced Series in Astrophysics and Cosmology, Vol. 7, World Scientific, pp. 211-226, 1990.
?Gravity Probe: II Hardware Development; Progress Towards the Flight Instrument
D. Bardas, et al., ÒGravity Probe: II Hardware Development; Progress Towards the Flight Instrument,Ó Proceedings of the Sixth Marcel Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity, Kyoto, Japan, eds. H. Sato and T. Nakamura, World Scientific, pp. 382-393, 1991.
?Status of the Cryogenic Inertial Reference System for the Gravity Probe B Mission
J. A. Lipa, D.H. Gwo, R. K. Kirschman, SPIE Vol. 1765 Cryogenic Optical Systems and Instruments V, 1992.
?Gravity Probe B: Status and Flight Plans
J. C. Mester, C. W. F. Everitt, B. W. Parkinson, J. P. Turneaure, Proceedings of the Symposium on the Early Universe, Madras, India (Dec. 1994).
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Telescope
?Cryogenic Star-Tracking Telescope for Gravity Probe-B
C. W. F. Everitt, D. E. Davidson, R. A. Van Patten, SPIE Proceedings, Vol. 619, Los Angeles, California, 23-24 January, 1986.
?Status of the Cryogenic Telescope and Guide Star for Gravity Probe B
Suwen Wang, D.-H Gwo, K. A. Bower, L. W. Huff, J. A. Lipa, Proceedings of the 32nd COSPAR Scientific Assembly in Nagoya,Japan, July 12-19, 1998.
?Optical and Pneumatic Vibration Isolation for Optimal Performance of an Artificial Star
E. Acworth, submitted to Precision Engineering: Journal of the American Society for Precision Engineering. (Manuscript has been edited, needs final preparation, per author February 09, 2004).
?The Gravity Probe B Star Tracking Telescope
D. H. Gwo, S. Wang, K. A. Bower, D. E. Davidson, P. Ehrensberger, L. Huff, E. Romero, M. T. Sullivan, K. Triebes and J. A. Lipa, Adv. Space Res. Vol. 32, No. 7, pp. 1401-1405, 2003.
?Science Telescope for Gravity Probe B
S. Wang, R. P. Farley, J. H. Goebel, M. Heietz, J. A. Lipa and J. P. Turneaure, Proceedings of SPIE Vol. 5172 Cryogenic Optical Systems and Instruments X, edited by James B. Heaney, Lawrence G. Burriesci, (SPIE, Bellingham, WA, 2003), page 108.
?A Cryogenic Optical Telescope for Inertial Pointing in the Milli-arc-sec Range
S. Wang, D.-H Gwo, R. K. Kirschman, J. A. Lipa, Proceedings of the 21st International Conference on Low-Temperature Physics Prague, August 8-14, 1996, Czechoslovak Journal of Physics, Vol 46 (1996), Suppl. S5.
?The Telescope Readout Electronics for the Gravity Probe Satellite
H. P. Demroff, et al, J. Phys. IV France 8 (1998)
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Relativity Related Theory
?Proposal for a Satellite Test of the Coriolis Prediction of General Relativity
G. E. Pugh. Reprinted in Nonlinear Gravitodynamics, The Lense Thirring Effect, a documentary introduction to current research. Editors: Remo J. Ruffini, Costantino Sigismondi, 2002, pp. 414-425. Orininally Published as U.S. Department of Defense Weapons Systems Evaluation Group Research Memorandum No. 11, 1959.
?Motion of a Gyroscope According to Einstein's Theory of Gravitation
L. I. Schiff. Reprinted in Nonlinear Gravitodynamics, The Lense Thirring Effect, a documentary introduction to current research. Editors: Remo J. Ruffini, Costantino Sigismondi, 2002, pp. 427-438. Orininally Published in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Vol. 46, 1960.
?Gravitation, Relativity, and Precise Experimentation
C. W. F. Everitt, Proceedings of the First Marcel Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity, pp. 545-615, North Holland, 1977.
?Gravity and Inertia
P. W. Worden, Jr., C. W. F. Everitt, Resource Letter G1-1, American Association of Physics Teachers, pp. 494-500, June 1982.
?Cryogenic Equivalence Principle Experiment
P. W. Worden, Jr., Proceedings of the Third Marcel Grossmann Meeting, 1983.
?Do Cosmic Strings Violate the Equivalence Principle?
D. Kalligas, Proceedings of the First William Fairbank Meeting on Relativistic Gravitational Experiments in Space, Advanced Series in Astrophysics and Cosmology, Vol. 7 Rome, World Scientific, pp. 26-30, 1990.
?Gravity Probe B: I. The Scientific Implications
C. W. F. Everitt, Proceedings of the Sixth Marcel Grossmann Meeting on General Relativity, Kyoto, Japan, eds. H. Sato and T. Nakamura, World Scientific, pp. 1632-1644, 1991.
?Flat FRW Models with Variable G and A
D. Kalligas, P. Wesson, C. W. F. Everitt, General Relativity and Gravitation, Vol. 24, No. 4, 1992.
?The Classical Tests in Kaluza-Klein Gravity
D. Kalligas, P. S. Wesson, C. W. F. Everitt, The Astrophysical Journal, Vol. 439, No. 2, Part 1, February 1, 1995.
?Bianchi Type I Cosmological Models with Variable G and D A Comment
D. Kalligas, P. S. Wesson, C.W. F. Everitt, Reprinted from General Relativity and Gravitation, Vol. 27, No. 6, 1995.
?Analytical Approach to Spherically Symmetric Solutions of the Einstein Scalar Field Equations I
J. E. Berberian, A. S. Silbergleit, "Analytical and Numerical Approaches to Relativity Source of Gravitations Radiation." Proceeding of The Spanish Relativity Meeting, Palma, de Mallorca, September 1997.
?Analytical Approach to Spherically-Symmetric Solutions of the Einstein Scalar Field Equations II
J. E. Berberian, A. S. Silbergleit, Published in Analytical and Numerical Approaches to Relativity Sources of Gravitational Radiation, 1998, p.p. 229-236.
?Explicit green's function of a Boundary Value Problem for a Sphere and Trapped Flux Analysis in Gravity Probe B Experiment
M. Nemenman, A. S. Silbergleit, Jounal of Applied Physics 86 (1) 614-62
?General Treatment of Orbiting Gyroscope Precession
R. J. Adler and A. S. Silbergleit, International Journal of Theoretical Physics, Vol. 39, No. 5, 2000.
?Gravity and the Uncertainty Principle
R. J. Adler and D.I. Santiago, Mod. Phys. Let. A, 1371, 1999.
?Metric for an Oblate Earth
R.J. Adler, General Relativity and Gravitation, 1999.
?On the Detectability of Quantum Spacetime Foam with Gravitational Wave Interferometers
R. J. Adler, I. M. Nemenman, J. M. Overduin, and D. I. Santiago, Phys. Let. B 477, 424, 2000.
?Global Dynamics of Cosmological Expansion with a Minimally Coupled Scalar Field
Santiago and A S. Silbergleit, Physics Letters A, April 3, 2000.
?The Generalized Uncertainty Principle and Black Hole Remnants
R. J. Adler, Pisin chen, and David L. Santiago, General Relativity and Gravitation, Vol. 33, No. 12 December 2001.
?Realtivistic Diskoseismology II. Analytical Results for c-Modes
A. S. Silbergleit, R. V. Wagoner and M. Ortega-Rodriquez, Astrophys, J, 548 (Feb. 10, 2001) 335-347.
?Covariant calculation of general relativistic effects in an orbiting gyroscope experiment
C. Will, Physical Review Letters-D, 67, 2003 (March 23, 2003), 1-7.
?Relativity at the centenary
C. Will, Physics World, January 2005, 27-32.
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #197 on: June 18, 2014, 02:28:09 AM »
I think I told you what was my intent already.
I just want an example of a "good" scientific method so mine would be as good. I chose Gravity because of it's immaterial status.

Yes, I remember you saying that. I am sure you have done some reading in regards to proving gravity beforehand, just as I have. I'm just not convinced that the reason you have given is the sole reason.

The question I have at the moment is why you believe gravity is the "best" example to use with the intent of helping you with your own "God" example? After all, gravity... unlike your "God" entity... is a mindless force with no interest (or even possessing the capability to be interested) in whether or not anyone believes in it's existence.

One point that bears repeating: your "God"... going by your own words... cannot be proven through the scientific method, so your proposal to craft an "as good" experiment is therefore illogical and nonsensical.

Oh, well. It's your prerogative to stick with gravity. Which of the following do you wish for us to discuss in relation to the scientific method: "what" is gravity or "why" gravity works? You do understand the distinction, correct?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2014, 02:45:01 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #198 on: June 18, 2014, 03:03:31 AM »
Maybe.  Define "gravity", and define "god", and I may take you up on it.
Hmm How about those? Can you work with that?
God : An impersonal and universal spiritual presence or force; immaterial being that exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
Gravity : Force exercised by two bodies onto each other;  immaterial thing that exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

Almost.  Define "spiritual", and "immaterial" (in both definitions)."force" (likewise), "presence", and the difference (if any) between "presence" and "force" - are you defining it as one thing, or the other, or both?

The scientific method is one where precision is important, as I'm sure you're aware.  Terms need to be defined first.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #199 on: June 18, 2014, 12:46:17 PM »
However, you are claiming that, unlike all other things that exist only in the mind and nowhere else, the greatest possible being, if it exists in the mind, must also exist in reality.

This is "special pleading" as you have no evidence to make an exception to the rule.

Here is how I see you "counter argument", for a plastic chair :
"However, I am claiming that, unlike all other chairs and nothing else, the plastic chair, if it's a chair, must also be in plastic."
I don't see how this could be considered as a counter argument or special pleading.
There are some concepts that even intelligent sane people cannot seem to understand. I think I have found the one you do not understand.

But first: unless I am reading this wrongly, this sentence does not make sense: Luk: "Here is how I see you "counter argument", for a plastic chair :" Do you mean "This is my (i.e. Luk's) "counter argument", in favour of he example of a plastic chair being a good argument for the existence of God:"?

Special Pleading: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading please try to understand this, because it shows that you simply cannot argue that GPB is an exception to the idea "Just because something exists in your mind, does not mean that it exists in reality."

OK, I'll bite on "Gravity"


Ask question: “Why do things fall downwards?”
Do background research: “Hmmm, most things fall down to earth, but some go up!
Things that go up do so because the displacement buoyancy is greater than the force pulling them down.
What is that force that pulls things down? 

Construct hypothesis: It is something to do with relative masses.
This would explain planetary motion and why Australians do not fall off the earth!

Test with experiment: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimetry#How_gravity_is_measured

Does it work? Yes

Analyse data and draw conclusions: http://www.universetoday.com/57713/gravity-formula/

Results align with hypothesis

Communicate results to Lukvance who will give us the formula for proving mathematically that God exists outside our minds.




Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #200 on: June 18, 2014, 01:25:40 PM »
Oh, well. It's your prerogative to stick with gravity. Which of the following do you wish for us to discuss in relation to the scientific method: "what" is gravity or "why" gravity works? You do understand the distinction, correct?
Yes. I understand. Whatever you think necessary to prove Gravity.
I want proof that Gravity exist outside your mind. I understand that such proof must include the scientific method.
You're worth more than my time

Offline screwtape

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #201 on: June 18, 2014, 01:27:47 PM »
oh luk wants scientific method for proof of gravity, please refute these luk, this is just one small aprt of one experiment. please read every detail and refute them. luk has me on ignore so can someone re-post these, more in a follow up post:

Data Analysis
...

What is with this post?  The formatting?  It looks like you did a copy-paste, but did not include your reference, but I cannot tell.  Please clarify.  If you have a link please provide it.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Defiance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #202 on: June 18, 2014, 02:48:52 PM »
No, eh! I prefer not stonewalling.
"God is just and fair"
*God kills 2.5 million of people he KNEW would turn out like this in the flood*
*Humanity turns bad again, when God knew it would*
We should feel guilty for this.