Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 13700 times)

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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #145 on: May 29, 2014, 07:42:38 PM »
I don't understand how that is even considered an argument. You could plug in anything for "god" and make it magically exist-- Brahma, Shango, Thor, Durga, Batman.  Why would anyone ever use that as evidence or proof? All you have "proved" is that you can play with words.

Magical zero calorie apple pie is the dessert so delicious that nothing better can be conceived......etc. so, where is my magical apple pie?

There is nothing whose real existence has been proven. That has been Lukvance's problem from the beginning. He is so desperate to make his invisible, immaterial, non-physical, do-nothing god exist in reality that he has to re-define "real" to include the imaginary. He has to justify why this god seems to have no effect on the world by bending free will into a logical pretzel. And then he has the nerve to try to argue! &)
All I read here are accusations without nothing to support them.
Try my first proof : "If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains." with your pie. Build from that. Then after we discuss, prove your point by pointing my mistakes instead of inventing some that are not there.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #146 on: May 29, 2014, 08:32:48 PM »
All I read here are accusations without nothing to support them.
Try my first proof : "If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains." with your pie.
That you think this constitutes anything remotely close to almost maybe being within the same vicinity as a 'proof' is simply flabbergasting.

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Build from that. Then after we discuss, prove your point by pointing my mistakes instead of inventing some that are not there.
Your mistake - just saying that something must exist in reality doesn't actually mean that it exists.  If the greatest possible Loc-Nar 5s exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater Loc-Nar 5s is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course it would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains. <---- under no circumstance do those syntactically correct sentences make manifest a Loc-Nar 5s into realityReality is under no obligation to heed to those words.

So you need to back up the claim:
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Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
with more than just your incantations.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Nam

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #147 on: May 29, 2014, 08:56:04 PM »
Hey Lukvance, how are you relevant period? You're a joke.

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A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2014, 04:40:22 AM »
Noah story is not factual.... how did you reach that conclusion. can i post your response on answers in genesis site and send a copy to ken hams and the executive of the creation museum....they seem to be mislead by satan perhaps or perhaps you are satan.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #149 on: May 30, 2014, 05:41:43 AM »
I don't understand how that is even considered an argument. You could plug in anything for "god" and make it magically exist-- Brahma, Shango, Thor, Durga, Batman.  Why would anyone ever use that as evidence or proof? All you have "proved" is that you can play with words.

Magical zero calorie apple pie is the dessert so delicious that nothing better can be conceived......etc. so, where is my magical apple pie?

There is nothing whose real existence has been proven. That has been Lukvance's problem from the beginning. He is so desperate to make his invisible, immaterial, non-physical, do-nothing god exist in reality that he has to re-define "real" to include the imaginary. He has to justify why this god seems to have no effect on the world by bending free will into a logical pretzel. And then he has the nerve to try to argue! &)
All I read here are accusations without nothing to support them.
Try my first proof : "If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains." with your pie. Build from that. Then after we discuss, prove your point by pointing my mistakes instead of inventing some that are not there.

No, Luk, your attempt at a proof is exactly the same as Anselm's. You start from a 'god-in-the-head' and then say that a greater being would have existence as well, so it must exist. Your problem is that jump for idea to existence. You might like the logic but it is a step too far.

Probably the main fault in your and Anselm's logic is the first statement. You start by defining your god but from where do you get that definition? I presume you get it from your holy book, the bible, and from your church's teachings but the problem with the definition is that it can be used of any god a person might choose. That's why you saw us having fun with a 'my god's better than yours' gags. The fact is that there are various gods describing in holy books and some of these have become, for their followers a 'god-in-the-head' but that's as far as the evidence will go. To get any further, to show that a god exists in reality, we need direct evidence of that existing god together with a way to know if it is YHVH, Allah, Odin or whoever. Remember, all of these gods are well supported in their own literature so there's not jumping to 'oh, it has to be my god because the other are fakes' style argument.

So, a 'yes - no' question for you. Does there exist an direct evidence that shows that your god, be careful, that's YHVH, exists independently? Please give reasons and the evidence. If you answer 'no', then the discussion is over because you will have shown there is no existing god.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #150 on: May 30, 2014, 10:34:49 AM »
Remember when I said "I am stopping you right there" in my previous post? Until you acknowledge the flaw in your logic with your sole reliance on Anselm's ontological argument as your only "proof" of your concept of "God's" existence, our conversation will not proceed past this point.

Again, point by point, here is your flaws:

Try my first proof : "If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality

As worded, this is a blanantly false premise if you are claiming "reality" is referring to an existence outside of the human brain (which is exactly what you are claiming). Existence in the mind does not automatically ("must") equate to existence outside of the mind.



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If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality.

"And in reality" has not by any stretch of the imagination been determined as has already been shown in your premise. Your argument is stopped dead in it's track here.

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Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains."

An erroneous conclusion based upon a flawed premise.

As has been repeatedly stated by multiple posters, you cannot think an entity in to existence separate from the brain it was conceptualized in, "greatest possible" or otherwise. You have provided zero evidence to prove otherwise.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #151 on: May 30, 2014, 10:41:53 AM »
By that supposed "proof" you can argue anything you want into existence: the greatest chair possible, the greatest superhero ever thought of, the greatest princess in the universe, the greatest puppy ever, etc.

If all you have to do to make something exist in reality is to run it through that "proof" than we should be living in a perfect world full of the greatest, ie, best possible things. All the chairs should be the most comfortable possible, including the crappy one I am sitting in now at work. We don't live in that perfect world, most chairs are pretty crappy, and we don't live in a perfect world where that perfect, all powerful, wonderful god is in charge, either.[1]

Unless Lukvance is now going to re-define "all powerful", "perfect" and "in charge" to mean their opposite. Which he might try to do, just because.

Many Christians who post here end up saying the most absurd things, things that they cannot possibly really believe, in order to try to show that their impossible god is real and runs everything in the universe. If I was trying to prove the existence of magical invisible all powerful fairies that hold airplanes up, I would have to say absurd things, too.
 1. I can already hear Lukvance responding, "How do you know we don't live in a perfect world? Have you been to any other worlds to compare?" Remember, If I can imagine the most perfect world in my mind, it must exist in reality, right? And if it exists, than we must be in it. QED. Sort of.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #152 on: May 30, 2014, 11:17:24 AM »
A few more things that you need to be corrected on:

Err, no. Continue to one up and at one point you will get to the true greatest being. You know that you can't "one up" perfection right?

You continuously miss the point. Every other individual will continue to claim their "God" concept is the greatest being. You are under the false (and dare I say arrogant) assumption that eventually, each and every individual will conclude that your definition of "God" must be the greatest being. You will all be locked in a stalemate stating to one another, "No, MY God is greater than yours" unless you can somehow manage to convert each and every one them to your concept of "God" (which they are at the same time attempting to do to you). Do you comprehend this now?

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I am the one imagining the perfect God. A greater God than the Islamic one what else than my opinion do you want?

From the Muslim's viewpoint: "I am the one imagining the perfect God. A greater God than the Islamic Christian one". Your claim is no more or no less valid than the Muslim's (or anyone else's). Go ahead and attempt to use your ontological argument in real life against a devout Muslim and see what happens if you don't believe me.

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NO. I will argue with him that my God did not kill anyone. (Noah's story is not factual)

And the Muslim would then correctly point out that not only is this speculation on your part, the fact that your Holy Book contains so many "not factual" stories would lead one to wonder if anything in the Bible can be trusted at all.

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The point again is you and everyone else who throws their hat in to the ring must defend your candidate for which "God" is "the greatest". You have not satisfied this requirement.

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Yes I did :)

No you did not.

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I should have start with "Do you know any other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion)?" Then I would've stated "Since no one seems to find/know any other evidence, could we agree that Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings?"


Poltergeists. If you remember, I made this point that you never addressed back in post #59.

Nothing? You sure? Poltergeists by their definition are also immaterial, yet can manipulate objects and interact with their environment which can most definitely be tested and verified (evidence) using equipment such as EMF Meters, Full Spectrum Cams, EVP Recorders, etc.

Mind you, I do not believe in poltergeists, but then again I am not the one "defining" them in to existence.

"Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings" continues to be a fallacious argument.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #153 on: May 30, 2014, 11:40:53 AM »
Yep, dreaming things up in the mind cannot and never will produce a real existing thing, Well, that's not quite right - people think up things in their heads and then go of to the kitchen, the workshop, the laboratory etc. and make the thing. However that is not the case here.

Maybe the Higgs Bosun is appropriate though. Peter Higgs and others worked through the maths and thought it showed there should be a bosun that gave mass to all the other fundamental particles. In the 1960s. Now, Luk, you know the end of this story - the CERN experiment detected the bosun and Nobel Prizes were awarded to Peter Higgs and others for the discovery. Let's see if the method used could be used by you, Luk

1. Work out (by whatever means) something that ought to exist

2. Devise and experiment that might detect it

3. Run the experiment and see what happens. Get others to do the same

4. Compare results with other researchers and publish in a peer-reviewed journal

There you are, Luk. That's how you get from idea to proof. Notice Higgs wasn't allowed to go from stage 1 to Nobel Prize - you can't skip the middle bit. So devise and experiment and you could even recruit people here to take part, but it must have an objective way to confirm you have found a god.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #154 on: May 30, 2014, 12:40:30 PM »
That you think this constitutes anything remotely close to almost maybe being within the same vicinity as a 'proof' is simply flabbergasting.

Thank you for sharing your opinion?
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Your mistake - just saying that something must exist in reality doesn't actually mean that it exists.  If the greatest possible Loc-Nar 5s exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater Loc-Nar 5s is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course it would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains. <---- under no circumstance do those syntactically correct sentences make manifest a Loc-Nar 5s into realityReality is under no obligation to heed to those words.

I'm sorry but I agree with the logic "Loc-Nar 5s" exist in reality. According to the definition you gave him. it's one of the many names of God. (one you just gave him)
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So you need to back up the claim:
Quote from: Lukvance
"Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
with more than just your incantations.

You are wrong they are not incantations. Again, thank you for your opinion? Now, take a deep breath and back it up with proof?
You're worth more than my time

Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #155 on: May 30, 2014, 12:56:58 PM »
I know I might seem a little harsh in here. I apologize in advance. I'm getting tired, this is nothing against you, I feel like in this post you really wanted to help me. Sorry :(
No, Luk, your attempt at a proof is exactly the same as Anselm's. You start from a 'god-in-the-head' and then say that a greater being would have existence as well, so it must exist. Your problem is that jump for idea to existence. You might like the logic but it is a step too far.

I don't start with god in the head. Could you stop inventing words and keep to the facts? Could you think of something that does not jump from idea to existence?
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Probably the main fault in your and Anselm's logic is the first statement. You start by defining your god but from where do you get that definition?

You are wrong I am not defining God in my first statement. Your invented words again.
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I presume you get it from your holy book, the bible, and from your church's teachings but the problem with the definition is that it can be used of any god a person might choose. That's why you saw us having fun with a 'my god's better than yours' gags. The fact is that there are various gods describing in holy books and some of these have become, for their followers a 'god-in-the-head' but that's as far as the evidence will go.

You are having fun, great ! Have fun reading your gags. But you know that gags aren't proofs, right? Or even arguments.
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To get any further, to show that a god exists in reality, we need direct evidence of that existing god together with a way to know if it is YHVH, Allah, Odin or whoever. Remember, all of these gods are well supported in their own literature so there's not jumping to 'oh, it has to be my god because the other are fakes' style argument.

Bold mine. No, you don't need direct evidence. You don't need it to know what you are feeling(love,hate...etc). You don't need it to know which God to choose.
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So, a 'yes - no' question for you.
Yay!
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Does there exist an direct evidence that shows that your god, be careful, that's YHVH, exists independently?
Other. I can provide you with evidence of his independent existence (cf my first post) but I don't understand what is "direct evidence" you are talking about. Do you have direct evidence that you love someone?
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #156 on: May 30, 2014, 01:01:36 PM »
That you think this constitutes anything remotely close to almost maybe being within the same vicinity as a 'proof' is simply flabbergasting.

Thank you for sharing your opinion?
You're welcome?

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Your mistake - just saying that something must exist in reality doesn't actually mean that it exists.  If the greatest possible Loc-Nar 5s exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater Loc-Nar 5s is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course it would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains. <---- under no circumstance do those syntactically correct sentences make manifest a Loc-Nar 5s into realityReality is under no obligation to heed to those words.

I'm sorry but I agree with the logic "Loc-Nar 5s" exist in reality. According to the definition you gave him. it's one of the many names of God. (one you just gave him)
Him?  Did I say anything about a Loc-Nar 5s being an entity that is appropriately referenced with a pronoun typically reserved for sentient entities of the male persuasion?

Could you explain the logic of saying that the property of 'existence' is greater than 'non-existence'?  What, exactly, is the metric that you use to determine whether some...feature...is 'greater' or 'not greater'?  'Greater' or 'not greater' how?

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So you need to back up the claim:
Quote from: Lukvance
"Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
with more than just your incantations.

You are wrong they are not incantations. Again, thank you for your opinion? Now, take a deep breath and back it up with proof?
The number of deep breaths I have to take in responding to your posts is rather high already.  My use of the word 'incantation' is something of hyperbole, but the main point is that you keep trying to assert the real existence of something based on words alone, and frankly, that sh*t ain't gonna fly.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2014, 01:12:42 PM »
Again, point by point, here is your flaws:

Thank you!
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Try my first proof : "If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality
As worded, this is a blanantly false premise if you are claiming "reality" is referring to an existence outside of the human brain (which is exactly what you are claiming). Existence in the mind does not automatically ("must") equate to existence outside of the mind.
I agree with you, existence in the mind does not automatically equate to existence outside of the mind. But it is a special case here. We are talking about the greatest possible being. When we talk about that being and because he is the greatest, this rule does not apply.
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Quote from: Lukvance
If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality.
"And in reality" has not by any stretch of the imagination been determined as has already been shown in your premise. Your argument is stopped dead in it's track here.
I don't get that comment. Are you saying "go read my previous comment before I can start to comment on this part of your proof"?
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Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains."
An erroneous conclusion based upon a flawed premise.

I don't get that comment. Are you saying "go read my first comment so I can get to this conclusion"?
There seems to be only ONE "flaw" that you underlined (and I debunked). And you make it look like there are 3. Not cool man, not cool.
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As has been repeatedly stated by multiple posters, you cannot think an entity in to existence separate from the brain it was conceptualized in, "greatest possible" or otherwise. You have provided zero evidence to prove otherwise.
Why can't you? I just did!
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #158 on: May 30, 2014, 01:20:13 PM »
By that supposed "proof" you can argue anything you want into existence: the greatest chair possible, the greatest superhero ever thought of, the greatest princess in the universe, the greatest puppy ever, etc.
Pick one! Let's see where it leads you.

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If all you have to do to make something exist in reality is to run it through that "proof" than we should be living in a perfect world full of the greatest, ie, best possible things. All the chairs should be the most comfortable possible, including the crappy one I am sitting in now at work.
There can only be one greatest.
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We don't live in that perfect world, most chairs are pretty crappy, and we don't live in a perfect world where that perfect, all powerful, wonderful god is in charge, either.
You are wrong. We live in a world where God exist. He even exist outside of your brain. Could we stick to the subject and try not to have to read phrases like the one you just wrote? You invent an situation (perfect world) then you say it does not exist. Waste of time.

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Unless Lukvance is now going to re-define "all powerful", "perfect" and "in charge" to mean their opposite. Which he might try to do, just because.
Nope, no need for all that. It's your fantasy world you killed.

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Many Christians who post here end up saying the most absurd things, things that they cannot possibly really believe, in order to try to show that their impossible god is real and runs everything in the universe. If I was trying to prove the existence of magical invisible all powerful fairies that hold airplanes up, I would have to say absurd things, too.
Good thing I am not one of those! :) Thank you for your opinion on Christians, but we really don't need it here, it's irrelevant.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #159 on: May 30, 2014, 01:29:58 PM »
You are wrong. We live in a world where God exist. He even exist outside of your brain. Could we stick to the subject and try not to have to read phrases like the one you just wrote? You invent an situation (perfect world) then you say it does not exist. Waste of time.

Oh well hell, why didn't you just say so?

That settles the thread.  Lukvance says that god exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.  Must be f*cking true.  Lukvance typed those words.  Must make it f*cking true.

How could I have been so blind?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #160 on: May 30, 2014, 01:33:43 PM »
You continuously miss the point. Every other individual will continue to claim their "God" concept is the greatest being. You are under the false (and dare I say arrogant) assumption that eventually, each and every individual will conclude that your definition of "God" must be the greatest being. You will all be locked in a stalemate stating to one another, "No, MY God is greater than yours" unless you can somehow manage to convert each and every one them to your concept of "God" (which they are at the same time attempting to do to you). Do you comprehend this now?
I am not missing the point. You have an idea which is "we won't agree" and I have one opposite which is "we will agree". I know the result of this because I already tried it with a Muslim.
Nevertheless, since neither you nor me can predict the future, let's leave it at that and try something we can control.

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NO. I will argue with him that my God did not kill anyone. (Noah's story is not factual)
And the Muslim would then correctly point out that not only is this speculation on your part, the fact that your Holy Book contains so many "not factual" stories would lead one to wonder if anything in the Bible can be trusted at all.
I understand what you are trying to do here. Moving the discussion on another subject (the veracity of the bible). Even if he says that, we agree my God is greater...that's the point no?

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I should have start with "Do you know any other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion)?" Then I would've stated "Since no one seems to find/know any other evidence, could we agree that Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings?"

Poltergeists. If you remember, I made this point that you never addressed back in post #59.

Nothing? You sure? Poltergeists by their definition are also immaterial, yet can manipulate objects and interact with their environment which can most definitely be tested and verified (evidence) using equipment such as EMF Meters, Full Spectrum Cams, EVP Recorders, etc.

Mind you, I do not believe in poltergeists, but then again I am not the one "defining" them in to existence.

"Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings" continues to be a fallacious argument.
You said you didn't accept the proofs for poltergeist. (that's what I understand from "i do not believe in poltergeists") Doesn't that mean that they are not to be considered as evidence? If they are, then I won't have trouble changing my statement. But you must believe in poltergeists first since you've see evidence of their existence. :)
I ask again : Do you know any other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion)?
You're worth more than my time

Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #161 on: May 30, 2014, 01:46:45 PM »
Yep, dreaming things up in the mind cannot and never will produce a real existing thing, Well, that's not quite right - people think up things in their heads and then go of to the kitchen, the workshop, the laboratory etc. and make the thing. However that is not the case here.
Thank you, can we stick to the subject at hand?

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Maybe the Higgs Bosun is appropriate though. Peter Higgs and others worked through the maths and thought it showed there should be a bosun that gave mass to all the other fundamental particles. In the 1960s. Now, Luk, you know the end of this story - the CERN experiment detected the bosun and Nobel Prizes were awarded to Peter Higgs and others for the discovery. Let's see if the method used could be used by you, Luk
... you have to be sure.

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1. Work out (by whatever means) something that ought to exist
2. Devise and experiment that might detect it
3. Run the experiment and see what happens. Get others to do the same
4. Compare results with other researchers and publish in a peer-reviewed journal
There you are, Luk. That's how you get from idea to proof. Notice Higgs wasn't allowed to go from stage 1 to Nobel Prize - you can't skip the middle bit. So devise and experiment and you could even recruit people here to take part, but it must have an objective way to confirm you have found a god.

1. Done on this thread
2. Go to the church (a good one) and pray.
3. Done it, I believe. Done it, they believe.
4. Look at that! Done![1] God exist and we have proof!
Thank you.
 1. http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #162 on: May 30, 2014, 01:52:13 PM »
Him?  Did I say anything about a Loc-Nar 5s being an entity that is appropriately referenced with a pronoun typically reserved for sentient entities of the male persuasion?
The entity. Stop trying to divert from the subject.

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Could you explain the logic of saying that the property of 'existence' is greater than 'non-existence'?  What, exactly, is the metric that you use to determine whether some...feature...is 'greater' or 'not greater'?  'Greater' or 'not greater' how
My metric? Happiness. I think everyone has his own metric.

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The number of deep breaths I have to take in responding to your posts is rather high already.  My use of the word 'incantation' is something of hyperbole, but the main point is that you keep trying to assert the real existence of something based on words alone, and frankly, that sh*t ain't gonna fly.
There is logic too, you'll see. :)
Ps : Do you know any other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion)?
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Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #163 on: May 30, 2014, 02:18:46 PM »
I agree with you, existence in the mind does not automatically equate to existence outside of the mind. But it is a special case here. We are talking about the greatest possible being. When we talk about that being and because he is the greatest, this rule does not apply.

This is called "special pleading".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading
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Special pleading (also known as stacking the deck, ignoring the counterevidence, slanting, and one-sided assessment[1]) is a form of spurious argument where a position in a dispute introduces favourable details or excludes unfavourable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception

It is also irrelevant. Whether an object or being is "greatest" in the mind does not automatically equate to existence outside of the mind. You are offering no evidence outside of Anselm's ontological argument to support your claim of "must".

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I don't get that comment. Are you saying "go read my previous comment before I can start to comment on this part of your proof"

No. I am saying you cannot continue on your conclusion if the premises it is built upon are flawed.

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I don't get that comment. Are you saying "go read my first comment so I can get to this conclusion"?

Not to sound harsh, but these "I don't get that comment" are beginning to appear to be more due to failure on your part to grasp what is being discused than through a fault in communication on my part.

Your conclusion is flawed due to it being built on a premise, followed by an argument that is flawed.

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There seems to be only ONE "flaw" that you underlined (and I debunked).

You must certainly did not. Solely relying on Anselm's argument to defend Anselm's argument (as you have introduced no other evidence to bolster your claims) is circular reasoning.

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And you make it look like there are 3. Not cool man, not cool.

There are three, and there continues to be three. You claim to have refuted my points and I claim that you have not. I would be more than happy to have it put to a vote, but I have a feeling you would feel the deck was stacked in my favor.

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Why can't you? I just did!

No you did not for all the reasons I have already given.

I've stated my case, and see no further benefit of continuing this conversation.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #164 on: May 30, 2014, 02:32:05 PM »
I am not missing the point. You have an idea which is "we won't agree" and I have one opposite which is "we will agree". I know the result of this because I already tried it with a Muslim.

Did the Muslim agree your "God" is greater than his? Yes or no.

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Even if he says that, we agree my God is greater...that's the point no?

You are saying the Muslim agreed that your "God" is greater than his? Yes or no.

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You said you didn't accept the proofs for poltergeist. (that's what I understand from "i do not believe in poltergeists") Doesn't that mean that they are not to be considered as evidence? If they are, then I won't have trouble changing my statement. But you must believe in poltergeists first since you've see evidence of their existence. :)

My beliefs are irrelevant, and I have never stated I have seen evidence of their existence, only that the means exist to verify their existence. You are guilty of using a strawman argument. Not cool, man. Not cool.

What is relevant is the definition of poltergeists as being both immaterial and capable of being proven or disproven through evidence or the lack thereof using the scientific method. This is a valid example.

If you cannot refute the above statement, then you cannot claim evidence of immaterial beings using nothing other than philosophical evidence or testimony.

« Last Edit: May 30, 2014, 02:34:11 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #165 on: May 30, 2014, 03:31:35 PM »
Him?  Did I say anything about a Loc-Nar 5s being an entity that is appropriately referenced with a pronoun typically reserved for sentient entities of the male persuasion?
The entity. Stop trying to divert from the subject.
I'm not diverting the subject.  I'm exposing the vast amount of baggage that you're assuming and not explicitly stating.  Your implicitly sneaking in properties of this 'greatest' thing like gender and sentience.

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Could you explain the logic of saying that the property of 'existence' is greater than 'non-existence'?  What, exactly, is the metric that you use to determine whether some...feature...is 'greater' or 'not greater'?  'Greater' or 'not greater' how
My metric? Happiness. I think everyone has his own metric.
Let me guess - 'happiness' is one of them there other things that somehow exists outside of the minds of sentient entities.  And you're going to do your utmost to avoid backing that shit up to.

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The number of deep breaths I have to take in responding to your posts is rather high already.  My use of the word 'incantation' is something of hyperbole, but the main point is that you keep trying to assert the real existence of something based on words alone, and frankly, that sh*t ain't gonna fly.
There is logic too, you'll see. :)
Ps : Do you know any other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion)?
I do not know of any other evidence of immaterial beings.  That's part of the reason that I don't believe that ghosts, boogie-men, or chicks that pay chump change for teeth are actually real.  That and because I'm a fucking adult.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #166 on: May 30, 2014, 06:36:35 PM »
This is called "special pleading".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_pleading
No. Is saying that a plastic chair is made of plastic, special pleading?
Here is what I say would look like :
"I agree with you, chair does not automatically equate to plastic. But it is a special case here. We are talking about a plastic chair. When we talk about that chair and because it is made of plastic, this rule does not apply."
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It is also irrelevant. Whether an object or being is "greatest" in the mind does not automatically equate to existence outside of the mind.

Yes it does! That's the proof we are talking about. This comment is as if you just wrote "I's also irrelevant. Your proof is wrong because I said so". This is not an argument. It looks like one but is not.
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You are offering no evidence outside of Anselm's ontological argument to support your claim of "must".
Could you stop with that Anselm thing and stick with my argument? I still don't think they are the same and it confuses me (and anyone else who's reading) more than necessary. I am not offering "Anselm's ontological argument" to support my claim of "must" OK?
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Quote from: Lukvance
I don't get that comment. Are you saying "go read my previous comment before I can start to comment on this part of your proof"
No. I am saying you cannot continue on your conclusion if the premises it is built upon are flawed.

I agree with you. You must determine if the premise is flawed before telling me that I cannot continue. And we did not determine that yet.
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Quote from: Lukvance
There seems to be only ONE "flaw" that you underlined (and I debunked).
You must certainly did not. Solely relying on Anselm's argument to defend Anselm's argument (as you have introduced no other evidence to bolster your claims) is circular reasoning.

Again with that "Anselm's argument" could you please stop that! It makes you look cool and knowledgeable but as much as you wish it was, it is not what I'm using/offering.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #167 on: May 30, 2014, 06:52:49 PM »
Did the Muslim agree your "God" is greater than his? Yes or no.
Hmm Yes and No, we found a definition of God that we agreed was the greatest being. He concluded that his god wasn't the greatest being...for now (he needed time to know his god better)

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You said you didn't accept the proofs for poltergeist. (that's what I understand from "i do not believe in poltergeists") Doesn't that mean that they are not to be considered as evidence? If they are, then I won't have trouble changing my statement. But you must believe in poltergeists first since you've see evidence of their existence. :)
What is relevant is the definition of poltergeists as being both immaterial and capable of being proven or disproven through evidence or the lack thereof using the scientific method. This is a valid example.
If you cannot refute the above statement, then you cannot claim evidence of immaterial beings using nothing other than philosophical evidence or testimony.
Of course I can refute your statement. We are not talking about non existence of something we are talking about proof of existence of something. You say that we can use instruments to prove the existence of poltergeist and that's a lie.
Tell me that "we can use instruments or using the scientific method to prove the existence of poltergeist" and I will change my statement.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #168 on: May 30, 2014, 07:02:27 PM »
Him?  Did I say anything about a Loc-Nar 5s being an entity that is appropriately referenced with a pronoun typically reserved for sentient entities of the male persuasion?
The entity. Stop trying to divert from the subject.
I'm not diverting the subject.  I'm exposing the vast amount of baggage that you're assuming and not explicitly stating.  Your implicitly sneaking in properties of this 'greatest' thing like gender and sentience.
I did no such thing! YOU were the one "implicitly sneaking in properties of this 'greatest' thing like gender and sentience" I used the pronoun "He" because I am talking about the greatest being I know I'm not born English but "greatest being" is masculine, no? Isn't there a rule saying that all "it" are masculine?
Anyway I really don't see how the sex of the being is of such importance that you need to expose it.

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Let me guess - 'happiness' is one of them there other things that somehow exists outside of the minds of sentient entities.  And you're going to do your utmost to avoid backing that shit up to.
Guess how much you want but do it on your time. Stay on the subject. (btw you guessed wrong)
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #169 on: May 30, 2014, 07:03:43 PM »
In luks mind luk is right and that's all the proof that matters to luk.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2014, 12:08:06 AM »
I used the pronoun "He" because I am talking about the greatest being I know I'm not born English but "greatest being" is masculine, no? Isn't there a rule saying that all "it" are masculine?

In English, "greatest being" has no gender; neither does "it," although a gender can be associated indirectly with the word "it" if one is talking about a female kitten or a male horse.

If we're discussing a hypothetical being that may not even have a gender, "it" is fine.
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Online Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #171 on: June 17, 2014, 12:35:18 AM »
Lol only 4 pages. This is fun.
Here we were at the point where I asked someone to present me with the scientific method used for Gravity so that I could apply it to God's doing in this world.
To help us "The Scientific Method":


Anyone?
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #172 on: June 17, 2014, 08:20:43 AM »
Here we were at the point where I asked someone to present me with the scientific method used for Gravity so that I could apply it to God's doing in this world.

Anyone?

Maybe.  Define "gravity", and define "god", and I may take you up on it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #173 on: June 17, 2014, 08:36:52 AM »
Do really want to entertain the troll.
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