Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 16327 times)

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #116 on: May 28, 2014, 06:19:55 PM »
Yes, you could say this. And it would be another false analogy fallacy since you have not shown that "math" or "numbers" exist outside the human brain.
It is not mine to show.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #117 on: May 28, 2014, 06:21:16 PM »
Yet when pressed on this point, he jumps right back into mental concepts again. Odd, isn't it? That should tell us something significant about his position.
Yes please tell me more how I am the one jumping, not you guys... quotes please :)
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Offline Emily

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #118 on: May 28, 2014, 06:31:43 PM »
I you can imagine a god greater than mine you'll face an impossibility. Please tell me how your god could be greater than mine. For now my god has the following definition.
God : the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.

This is also the definition of my god, and everyone else's god also. What makes your so much more powerful than the rest? For example: my god, would do so much more awesome shit than your god, for example, heal amputees. But to be honest, my god doesn't exist and neither does yours.

My god beat up your god. So there.  :P
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #119 on: May 28, 2014, 06:34:12 PM »
His argument for god, if you can call it that, is that:
1) lots of other people think there is a god;
2) he is happier if he thinks there is a god;
3) other people told him they also think there is a god; and
4) he doesn't stub his toes if he thinks there is a god.
Plus 5) gravity, math and love are sort of invisible, like god.
Oh yeah, there is also the part about him picking the Catholic version because they allow him to eat bacon. Note to Lukvance: atheists also allow you to eat bacon.[pornographic reference to other things atheists would allow him to eat removed in deference to younger or more sensitive viewers.]
Did I cover the salient points of the past couple hundred posts?
Not at all. These are my answer to questions people asked me. My arguments are quite different. For the existence of God I proved that God is as real as Love. And for the existence of God outside your brain...well you can read the first post of this thread. I think it is clear. If there are parts that you don't understand or disagree with. Just ask me more question/precision about it, i might be able to help you understand it.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #120 on: May 28, 2014, 06:43:49 PM »
God won't answer prayers on behalf of other people.
You forgot a tremendously important part. GOD WONT FORCE HIS WILL UNTO OTHERS and certainly not mine (or yours). All what you say afterward is your twisted interpretation of that fact.

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Where are these "specific rules for correct prayer" written out for all to see? God seems more strict, and more erratic, than the TSA.
Here : This might help you on your quest.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #121 on: May 28, 2014, 07:47:48 PM »
I'm listening closely.

I think we've identified the problem!

lukvance, this is a text based forum - you need to READ closely, not listen. Try reading closely and you should finally understand what everyone has been saying to you. I bet your comprehension improves dramatically once you start READING instead of listening to the posts.

If we had recognized your reading/listening confusion sooner, we could have wrapped up all these rambling threads weeks ago.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #122 on: May 28, 2014, 08:43:32 PM »
Oh! I just read a new proof. I didn't have time to go through it yet but it might be interesting.
If the resurrection of Christ can be shown as a real event in history, then the existence of God is demanded as an explanation for the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ is and can be shown as a fact of history. Therefore, God exists.
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Offline Emily

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #123 on: May 28, 2014, 08:49:33 PM »
Oh! I just read a new proof. I didn't have time to go through it yet but it might be interesting.
If the resurrection of Christ can be shown as a real event in history, then the existence of God is demanded as an explanation for the resurrection. The resurrection of Christ is and can be shown as a fact of history. Therefore, God exists.

The bold is the key word. Can it be shown as a real event in history? If not, then it's not proof that God exists.

Based on your own logic there is proof that a scary clown exists in Derry, Maine because Stephen King wrote about said clown in a book called It. It does exist in the book. But until it can be proven to actually exist in reality then it's safe to conclude it's probably fictional.

See how that circular reasoning works?!?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2014, 08:51:24 PM by Emily »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #124 on: May 28, 2014, 09:25:52 PM »
Lukvance, I read your article on prayer.

Basically, it is a page of nice-sounding words, psychobabble, contradictions and double think. Firstly, you have to already believe in a god, because god won't pay any attention to you otherwise. Secondly, you have to think that everything that happens is already up to god, because god will not pay any attention to you anyway. Thirdly, you have to realize that prayer is not communicating with god, because god does not listen to human prayers and then change the world to suit our needs. God has better things to do, like imposing his will on everyone. (More about that later.)

Which makes prayer as useful (or as useless) as meditation, listening to music, getting high, having sex, watching a movie, going for a run, playing a video game or anything else that people do to forget their problems for a while. Prayer just makes us humans more able to accept the world that god has made. Apparently, the job of human beings is to adjust our minds to accept the world as it is, and make our peace with that. How very Buddhist. How very Hindu. How Islamic.

Because prayer has absolutely no measurable effect on the well-being of people-- prayer does not do anything. Prayers to god will not keep the tsunami from sweeping away your family. Prayers to god will not keep the tsunami from sweeping away your neighbor's family. Prayers to god will not heal anybody of anything, unless the prayer happens to randomly coincide with one of god's capricious miracles.

For a lot of people, even those who want to believe in god, prayer is probably less effective than just sitting quietly and daydreaming for a few minutes. Like someone on this board suggested, there are probably a number of people bowing their heads in church and not feeling anything happening at all, and thinking they are the only ones. But they could be the majority!

Seriously, if prayers will not make god do something people want (and I agree that prayers have no effect on god's behavior) I am not sure what prayers to god are supposed to accomplish. Maybe praying is just to convince people that they are doing something religious when they are not in church.  :-\

BTW, I did not see anything on the page about how god will not impose his will on anyone. Since god made the universe and is in control of it all, everything bad or good that happens in the universe is god imposing his will on you. That makes prayer even more a moot point, right? Devoutly believing people plead and beg in prayer for god to save their dying children, and yet the children die anyway. Meanwhile god stands there not imposing his will, except that he is imposing it, by creating the poverty, disease, drought and famine in the first place.

Doesn't he impose his will on people all over the world, unbeliever and believer alike, all the time?
 
God sent that hurricane, wildfire, tsunami or landslide to destroy your town, so, he imposed his will on you. Most people whose homes got destroyed did not want it to happen, but god did it anyway. Most women who have miscarriages late in pregnancy did not want that to happen, but god killed their babies anyway. Most people who lose their jobs did not want it to happen, but there is god yanking their chains.

It was god who had you select that winning lotto ticket or get that promotion at work, or have that successful childbirth. So, clearly, he imposed his will on you. Certainly, there have to be a few people who did not want to win the lottery, or get a promotion or have a baby. But there is god, sticking his big honker in people's business again.

Obviously, I don't think that there is a god in charge of the universe. But for people who do, yeah, he is definitely imposing his will.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #125 on: May 28, 2014, 11:14:07 PM »
If the resurrection of Christ can be shown as a real event in history, then the existence of God is demanded as an explanation for the resurrection.
No, a god is not demanded.  I can think of alternate explanations, such as Jesus not quite dying and being taken off the cross alive.

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The resurrection of Christ is and can be shown as a fact of history. Therefore, God exists.
The evidence for a historical Jesus is amazingly weak, especially in light of all the miracles documented in the Gospels -- No one living in Jerusalem at the time seems to have noticed and written about it, including the many Romans stationed there at the time, and it took literally decades for the stories to start popping up in the early Christian community.

Furthermore, it's rather common for characters in religious stories to come back from the dead:  Inanna, Persephone, Orpheus, Osiris, Dionysus ... 'eck, even a few members of My own family make the list.

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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #126 on: May 28, 2014, 11:46:33 PM »
Based on your own logic there is proof that a scary clown exists in Derry, Maine because Stephen King wrote about said clown in a book called It. It does exist in the book. But until it can be proven to actually exist in reality then it's safe to conclude it's probably fictional.
See how that circular reasoning works?!?
Did the clown resurrected? It is the "resurrected" part that make God exist in that proof.
Did the clown killed someone? If so, based on my logic (I am trying to explain my logic to you here, using your example since you seem to have not understand it) If we find someone murdered exactly the same way the clown depicted in the book did and no one else could murder this person exactly that way. Then yes, the clown exist.
See how logic works?
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #127 on: May 29, 2014, 12:20:38 AM »
This is a long, overdue, one
Lukvance, I read your article on prayer.
Great!
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Basically, it is a page of nice-sounding words, psychobabble, contradictions and double think. Firstly, you have to already believe in a god, because god won't pay any attention to you otherwise.
That's not true. Proof?
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Secondly, you have to think that everything that happens is already up to god, because god will not pay any attention to you anyway.
That's not true either. Proof?
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Thirdly, you have to realize that prayer is not communicating with god, because god does not listen to human prayers and then change the world to suit our needs.
That's certainly not true either. Proof?
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Which makes prayer as useful (or as useless) as meditation, listening to music, getting high, having sex, watching a movie, going for a run, playing a video game or anything else that people do to forget their problems for a while.
No. Prayer is way more useful than all of that combined! You are concluding on bases that are not ye been proved.

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Prayer just makes us humans more able to accept the world that god has made. Apparently, the job of human beings is to adjust our minds to accept the world as it is, and make our peace with that. How very Buddhist. How very Hindu. How Islamic.
This is just you spitting words without backing them with proof.

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Because prayer has absolutely no measurable effect on the well-being of people-- prayer does not do anything. Prayers to god will not keep the tsunami from sweeping away your family. Prayers to god will not keep the tsunami from sweeping away your neighbor's family. Prayers to god will not heal anybody of anything, unless the prayer happens to randomly coincide with one of god's capricious miracles.
Again this is just you spitting words without backing them with proof. You seem to do that a lot.

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For a lot of people,
Because you know them all?
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even those who want to believe in god, prayer is probably less effective than just sitting quietly and daydreaming for a few minutes. Like someone on this board suggested, there are probably a number of people bowing their heads in church and not feeling anything happening at all, and thinking they are the only ones. But they could be the majority!
Or they could not exist at all. Speculation?

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Seriously, if prayers will not make god do something people want (and I agree that prayers have no effect on god's behavior) I am not sure what prayers to god are supposed to accomplish. Maybe praying is just to convince people that they are doing something religious when they are not in church.  :-\
Maybe you are wrong and prayer have effect on the world around you.

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Since god made the universe and is in control of it all, everything bad or good that happens in the universe is god imposing his will on you.
No it is not. Again one of your many conclusions without proof.

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That makes prayer even more a moot point, right?
That would if you were right. But you are not.

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Devoutly believing people plead and beg in prayer for god to save their dying children, and yet the children die anyway.
Prove it, back it up with numbers. You might be surprised by the numbers.

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Meanwhile god stands there not imposing his will, except that he is imposing it, by creating the poverty, disease, drought and famine in the first place.
God only allowed those to exist because he does not want to impose his will. Poverty, disease, drought and famine are consequences of sin. Then again, you should prove that God created poverty before using it as an argument.

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Doesn't he impose his will on people all over the world, unbeliever and believer alike, all the time?
No. I love those yes or no questions! :)
 
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God sent that hurricane, wildfire, tsunami or landslide to destroy your town, so, he imposed his will on you.
Prove that it was God who sent it and maybe you could use it as an argument.

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It was god who had you select that winning lotto ticket or get that promotion at work, or have that successful childbirth. So, clearly, he imposed his will on you.
Of course not! They asked him! It was their will to win the lotto ticket or get a promotion or have a successful childbirth.

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Certainly, there have to be a few people who did not want to win the lottery, or get a promotion or have a baby. But there is god, sticking his big honker in people's business again.
They did not want it? They did not get it.

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Obviously, I don't think that there is a god in charge of the universe. But for people who do, yeah, he is definitely imposing his will.
Let people who do believe in God make their own conclusion, do not impose to them the twisted type of conclusion that you parade here.

Usually I let go of all those claims you bring up and don't comment on them. But they are starting to steer the conversation away from the real question people have. You give your own answers to question that you ask yourself and pose them as truth. You know that refuting all of them like I just did, take a lot of time and you count on that to let your twisted ideas in the mind of others.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #128 on: May 29, 2014, 12:27:00 AM »
No, a god is not demanded.  I can think of alternate explanations, such as Jesus not quite dying and being taken off the cross alive.
Then it will not show as a resurrection in the history books. It would show as a guy being taken off the cross alive and hidden for 3 days and whatever alternate explanations that you can "think of". Historians are scientists too, many people forget that. You telling them "hey I have an alternate explanation" is like you telling Einstein "hey I have an alternate explanation!"

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The evidence for a historical Jesus is amazingly weak, especially in light of all the miracles documented in the Gospels -- No one living in Jerusalem at the time seems to have noticed and written about it, including the many Romans stationed there at the time, and it took literally decades for the stories to start popping up in the early Christian community.
"amazingly weak"...are you an historian? Did you study historical Jesus?
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #129 on: May 29, 2014, 12:53:39 AM »
No, a god is not demanded.  I can think of alternate explanations, such as Jesus not quite dying and being taken off the cross alive.

Then it will not show as a resurrection in the history books. It would show as a guy being taken off the cross alive and hidden for 3 days and whatever alternate explanations that you can "think of".
I doubt that very much.  The history books would record the apparent death of Jesus, not a half-dead man being taken away, for one simple reason:

The Romans didn't generally allow bodies to be taken off the crosses, let alone people who were still alive.

For that reason alone, the disciples of Jesus would have pretended he was dead for the benefit of the crowd and the soldiers guarding the site.  Historians aren't generally omniscient, and would have reported what they thought they saw.

However, the whole business about the body of Jesus being taken off the cross and permitted private burial goes completely against standard Roman operating procedure at the time.  In general, rotting bodies hung from the crosses until even the crows and carrion hounds had given up on them, whereupon what was left was thrown into a pit along with other bodies.  The nails were reused in another execution, as iron was a valuable commodity, and if the cross was still serviceable it too was reused.

I am 99.999...% convinced of the following:
  • If there ever was a historical Jesus, he was just a dime-a-dozen itinerant rabbi born to a normal family through non-supernatural means.
  • If this Jesus was in fact arrested and executed by the Romans, he died and did not come back to life.  If he wasn't actually rescued by his disciples and his execution proceeded as normal for such events, his bones are probably somewhere under modern-day Jerusalem, and the "many mansions" he alluded to turned out to be a pricey downtown condominium marking his final resting place.
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"amazingly weak"...are you an historian? Did you study historical Jesus?
*sigh*  Let's just say that I know a few things about history and know how to winnow wheat from chaff in several languages.  Kindly show Me primary documents, preferably written before 40 CE, that describe events similar to those in the Gospels.  I will accept writings from Jewish scholars, from Roman military personnel, or from people of other nations (e.g. Greece, Persia, Egypt) who actually saw someone named Jesus involved in events described in the Gospels.  Absolutely no hearsay accounts, and nothing from the Gospel authors or early Christians either.  I want to see a replica of an actual document (or sizable fragment thereof), written no more than a decade after the events in question.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 12:56:08 AM by Astreja »
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #130 on: May 29, 2014, 01:41:16 AM »
Cue special pleading interlude from Lukvance.

I summarized his prayer article and he denies that is what it said. He also thinks that hurricanes and drought are caused by sin. Like the Katrina flood was caused by the sinful gays in New Orleans.....

Face it, Lukvance your god is either evil and causes babies to die of starvation, or he is useless and can't do anything about babies dying of starvation. Or is it the free will of the baby to starve and die -- of course god cannot violate that?

I have sat and comforted Catholic women weeping and praying to god to save their dying babies. And the babies died. So don't tell me I don't know what I am talking about.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #131 on: May 29, 2014, 03:51:53 AM »
1. I am still puzzled about this prayer thing. Luk seems to suggest that praying for other people won't have any effect. yet why, then, do ministers in church services have intercessions when prayers are said for sick people and people with problems. Why would anyone bother doing that if they didn't think god would do something?

2. I am happy to talk about the historical Jesus and the accounts of his death if you want to, Luk. Would you like to do do here or in a new thread just for that?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #132 on: May 29, 2014, 10:45:24 AM »
2. I am happy to talk about the historical Jesus and the accounts of his death if you want to, Luk. Would you like to do do here or in a new thread just for that?

And if it was actually jesus that was crucified

This dude - Daniel Unterbrink -  recons judas was the inspiration for the jesus crucifixion story[1] Quite a good read I think there may be something to it...

The abstract from amazon:

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In his history of the Jewish nation, Josephus wrote only of the death of Jesus, not mentioning one detail of his life. In contrast, the life of Judas the Galilean was chronicled from his temple cleansing to his grandson's suicide at Masada. Yet, Josephus did not tell us how Judas died. Is it possible that Judas and Jesus are the same person? Just a few of the similarities are listed below.

Both Judas and Jesus cleansed the Temple in Jerusalem.

Like Jesus, Judas was anointed King or Messiah by his followers in Galilee.

The organizations of the teachers were identical. The second-in-command to Jesus was nicknamed Cephas. Josephus called Judas' second, Sadduc.

Barabbas was released in the trial of Jesus during the reign of Pilate. Judas was arrested by Herod the Great and later released to the Jewish crowd.

Jesus was interrogated by Annas and later crucified because of his stand against Roman taxation. Judas led the tax revolt against Roman taxation in 6 AD. Annas became High Priest in 7 AD.
 1. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Judas-Galilean-flesh-blood-Jesus/dp/0595321976

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #133 on: May 29, 2014, 10:57:18 AM »
Luk, I am going to start with this comment before getting back to the discussion at hand:

We are already on a good path with our other comments. Let's stay on that one. I feel like this reply is just out of the way coming from you.

I will freely admit that my patience with you has been wearing exceeding thin lately. For the sake of civility, I will try and keep it in check.

From post #113

You had asked me to refute your use of Anselm's ontological argument. I provided you with an example and an explanation of how the logic he used to come to his conclusion was flawed. You responded with:

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I don't see how this is like what I'm saying. He is using proof that I am not. (even if he is using some that I am)

He is using the same, exact argument as you are. I believe he has clearly shown through his example (only substituting in God 1 and God 2 to make it easier to follow). So what "proof" are you referring to? Anselm's argument is flawed. That was his sole purpose of his explanation.

Even if the argument was sound (which was just shown to be not the case), as I and other have repeatedly stated, it serves the same purpose no matter what concept of "God" you plug in to the equation. A Muslim can insert "Allah" (which to their faith is also defined as "the greatest possible being") and come to the same, exact conclusion: an entity that exists separate from the human brain.

This now leaves those such as yourself who rely upon the ontological argument with a paradox. You now have two equally valid candidates for the title of "the greatest possible being that exists separate from the human brain" (the actual number is as large as the number of multiple differing, individual definitions as to whom said individuals believe is their own candidate for "the greatest possible being").

Since it is a logical impossibility to have more than one "greatest possible being: an entity separate from the human brain", you are then presented with two options:

1) One, and only one personal definition of "God" is correct, which then leads to the seemingly insurmountable problem of proving which one it is, since each and every individual is using Anselm's ontological argument to prove their claim. If you continue to insist that this argument is valid, then we insist you prove that your personal definition of "God" is valid over everyone else's. This is now your task. Start with Allah and go from there.

or

2) All personal definitions of "God" are incorrect, whether it be due to said "Gods" being nothing more than imaginary constructs created by the human mind with no actual basis in reality, or this "God"... if such an entity actually exists... has not been discovered yet. This is the option I adhere to.

Next point (also from post #113):

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I do agree with you...but you cut right before the good part. Immaterial beings, you can't cut my phrase like that and conclude something so much out of context.

I provided my reason my follow up response. In retrospect, out of politeness I should have given you the opportunity to defend this statement of yours:

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Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings

According to who? Where is this stated? I must strongly insist on your providing a source to back up this claim, otherwise it will be continued to be ignored as being nothing more than personal opinion with my rebuttal continuing to stand as is:

"Nowhere in these definitions suggests that conjecture (philosophical or otherwise) and opinion (personal or otherwise) equals evidence (immaterial beings or otherwise)."

Next point:

On your statement that "God" will only answer prayers directed at oneself due to his not wishing to violate another individual's free will:

From post #120
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GOD WONT FORCE HIS WILL UNTO OTHERS

You then provided a link. I have read it. Nowhere does it state that "God" will not answer prayers that are directed at others. In fact, it gives an example of the exact opposite:

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With even the smallest initial faith, you'll find it easy to turn to God and ask him for help. A wonderful prayer here is to use the words of the sick child's father in the Gospel of Mark:

From Mark 9:14-29
14 When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them. 15 As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him.

16 “What are you arguing with them about?” he asked.

17 A man in the crowd answered, “Teacher, I brought you my son, who is possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth, gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive out the spirit, but they could not.”

19 “You unbelieving generation,” Jesus replied, “how long shall I stay with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me.”

20 So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled around, foaming at the mouth.

21 Jesus asked the boy’s father, “How long has he been like this?”

“From childhood,” he answered. 22 “It has often thrown him into fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us and help us.”

23 “‘If you can’?” said Jesus. “Everything is possible for one who believes.”

24 Immediately the boy’s father exclaimed, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!”

25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked the impure spirit. “You deaf and mute spirit,” he said, “I command you, come out of him and never enter him again.”

26 The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy looked so much like a corpse that many said, “He’s dead.” 27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

28 After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

29 He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer".

Now, I am going to guess that your initial response will be that the father was actually praying for himself "help me overcome my unbelief".

However, two "facts" remain. The first is that the father was pleading on his son's behalf. The second is that the boy did not pray for Jesus to help him. Your savior, by your own statements, violated the boy's free will.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 10:59:18 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #134 on: May 29, 2014, 12:03:39 PM »
1. I am still puzzled about this prayer thing. Luk seems to suggest that praying for other people won't have any effect. yet why, then, do ministers in church services have intercessions when prayers are said for sick people and people with problems. Why would anyone bother doing that if they didn't think god would do something?
If you are asking "does praying have an effect"? The answer is Yes.(yes or no question yay!) It will have an effect. Maybe not the effect you think it would have.
It is because prayer is a good thing for you and for the others. It's like the chip you receive after x days in AA meetings. It doesn't stop you physically to stop drinking. It is a reminder that we are lucky to have what we have. By praying we are making ourselves more aware of the ones who needs our help.
I was in bed one day, sick. Once I knew there was a group of people praying for me, I felt better. It is a good feeling to not be forgotten in our time of suffering.

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2. I am happy to talk about the historical Jesus and the accounts of his death if you want to, Luk. Would you like to do do here or in a new thread just for that?
Not here, thank you. However, I'm not sure I have enough information about it. I never encountered an historian who's specialty was the history of Jesus. But I'm ready to look it up on the internet. I'm sure there is plenty info about it there :)
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #135 on: May 29, 2014, 12:55:39 PM »
I will freely admit that my patience with you has been wearing exceeding thin lately. For the sake of civility, I will try and keep it in check.
This makes me really happy. Reading the rest of your comment I feel like we are on track again. Thank you.

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He [Anselm] is using the same, exact argument as you are. I believe he has clearly shown through his example (only substituting in God 1 and God 2 to make it easier to follow). So what "proof" are you referring to? Anselm's argument is flawed. That was his sole purpose of his explanation.
Just to make sure we are talking about the following : "If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains."
I don't see how god1 and god2 comes in context. He defined god 1 as what we are trying to prove and used it in the proof. I don't use what I am trying to prove the existence of in my proof.

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Even if the argument was sound (which was just shown to be not the case), as I and other have repeatedly stated, it serves the same purpose no matter what concept of "God" you plug in to the equation. A Muslim can insert "Allah" (which to their faith is also defined as "the greatest possible being") and come to the same, exact conclusion: an entity that exists separate from the human brain.
Yes! And he would be almost right. I can think of a being greater than his Allah. If the being I think of is also named Allah by this person then we will agree that Allah and God are just 2 names for the same being that exist.

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1) One, and only one personal definition of "God" is correct, which then leads to the seemingly insurmountable problem of proving which one it is, since each and every individual is using Anselm's ontological argument to prove their claim. If you continue to insist that this argument is valid, then we insist you prove that your personal definition of "God" is valid over everyone else's. This is now your task. Start with Allah and go from there.
Allah, as I understand, physically punish you when you sin. (He is responsible to making you fall down the stairs) God is all loving and won't ever do that to you. My god is greater than Allah.

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Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings

According to who? Where is this stated?
According to me and examples found around the globe. There are no other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion) If you can find one case where some different kind of evidence is reported I am ready to change my statement.


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Nowhere does it state that "God" will not answer prayers that are directed at others. In fact, it gives an example of the exact opposite:

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With even the smallest initial faith, you'll find it easy to turn to God and ask him for help. A wonderful prayer here is to use the words of the sick child's father in the Gospel of Mark:

From Mark 9:14-29
14 When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them. 15 As soon as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran to greet him.
[...]
29 He replied, “This kind can come out only by prayer".
Now, I am going to guess that your initial response will be that the father was actually praying for himself "help me overcome my unbelief".
Yes that was his prayer. But most importantly this was an exorcism it's a very special case were the devil take away the will from the boy.

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However, two "facts" remain. The first is that the father was pleading on his son's behalf. The second is that the boy did not pray for Jesus to help him. Your savior, by your own statements, violated the boy's free will.
Not quite. We don't know if the boy prayed for Jesus or not.
There are cases of exorcism where even after the demon is expelled from the body, he comes back because the person does not want it out.

Let's say I pray to get better. And my mother next to me pray for me to get better. I get better. Who's prayer do you think was answered?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #136 on: May 29, 2014, 01:29:23 PM »
1. I am still puzzled about this prayer thing. Luk seems to suggest that praying for other people won't have any effect. yet why, then, do ministers in church services have intercessions when prayers are said for sick people and people with problems. Why would anyone bother doing that if they didn't think god would do something?
If you are asking "does praying have an effect"? The answer is Yes.(yes or no question yay!) It will have an effect. Maybe not the effect you think it would have.
It is because prayer is a good thing for you and for the others. It's like the chip you receive after x days in AA meetings. It doesn't stop you physically to stop drinking. It is a reminder that we are lucky to have what we have. By praying we are making ourselves more aware of the ones who needs our help.
I was in bed one day, sick. Once I knew there was a group of people praying for me, I felt better. It is a good feeling to not be forgotten in our time of suffering.

Well I'm glad you like straight questions but I would like some clarification here. Are you saying that 

a. the benefits of prayer are for the person praying (maybe concentrating on other's problems and not their own) and for the person prayed for (so they feel that they are part of a sort of family and loved)
OR
b. That the above benefits apply but that god throws in his help to to start and fix problems? If so, what does he actually do. If not, then why pray at all - why not just ring up and sick person or go and visit them and tell them how much you care?
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2. I am happy to talk about the historical Jesus and the accounts of his death if you want to, Luk. Would you like to do do here or in a new thread just for that?
Not here, thank you. However, I'm not sure I have enough information about it. I never encountered an historian who's specialty was the history of Jesus. But I'm ready to look it up on the internet. I'm sure there is plenty info about it there :)
[/quote]

I'm happy to discuss that any time. Start a thread when you are ready. It's a subject that is pretty key to Christianity of course so ought to be of interest to any Christian.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #137 on: May 29, 2014, 02:23:02 PM »
I don't see how god1 and god2 comes in context. He defined god 1 as what we are trying to prove and used it in the proof.
I don't know how to make what he was saying in his example any clearer, Luk. I really can't. Here's what we can do, however:

Anyone else care to read http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2009/08/ontological-argument-for-god-rebuttal.html and give their input as to whether or not the author's argument makes sense?

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I don't use what I am trying to prove the existence of in my proof.

Yes, you do I'm afraid. Here is one example from your OP:

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Everything have a beginning but one

Your stance is that "one" is synonymous with "God". You then continue:

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he (God)must exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains since they were not created yet.

You attempted to prove the existence of a "God" separate from human brains using "proof" that "God" always existed prior to human brains.


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Yes! And he would be almost right. I can think of a being greater than his Allah. If the being I think of is also named Allah by this person then we will agree that Allah and God are just 2 names for the same being that exist.

I am stopping you right here. Your comment "he would almost be right" is your personal opinion, just as the Muslim's claim that you "would be almost right" is also nothing more than personal opinion. You are completely missing the point that anyone at anytime can "one up" you (and vice-versa) with a definition of a "God" greater than yours. You are also being intellectually dishonest to suggest that your personal definition of "God" (the Christian version) is synonymous with a Muslim's personal definition of "Allah" (the Islamic version). They are not the same being by any stretch of the imagination.

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Allah, as I understand, physically punish you when you sin. (He is responsible to making you fall down the stairs) God is all loving and won't ever do that to you. My god is greater than Allah.

One: your opinion is subjective. Who are you to question the motives and means of "God" (Islamic or otherwise)?

Two: a Muslim can turn around and point to the Christian God wiping out all of humanity except for 8 people during the Noah's Flood story, whereas in the Quran the Flood punishment only applied to certain, select communities who did not follow the Scriptures. Therefore Allah is greater in this example.

The point again is you and everyone else who throws their hat in to the ring must defend your candidate for which "God" is "the greatest". You have not satisfied this requirement.

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According to me and examples found around the globe. There are no other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion) If you can find one case where some different kind of evidence is reported I am ready to change my statement.

You have it backwards. You made the initial claim:

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Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings.

I have asked you to defend it. Your response "According to me and examples found around the globe" is not an acceptable substitute for backing up your statement as fact. You are positioning yourself as a source of authority. I sincerely doubt you would have accepted such a similar response from myself or anyone else.

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Yes that was his prayer. But most importantly this was an exorcism it's a very special case were the devil take away the will from the boy.

Now you are claiming there are "special cases" where violating one's free will on the behalf of another's prayer is acceptable. This is what is referred to as "shifting the goal posts".

Also, if what you are saying is the case, then Jesus would not have needed the father to relieve himself of his unbelief in the first place before interceding on the boy's behalf. Even more troubling... according to the passages quoted... is where it implies that Jesus would not have interceded had the father not prayed to be relieved of his unbelief.

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Not quite. We don't know if the boy prayed for Jesus or not.

If the boy himself prayed for help, then 1) Jesus would of had no need to have the father pray to relieve himself of his unbelief first, and 2) they had brought to boy to Jesus, who... according to the story... had to ask what was wrong with the boy which can be deduced that he was not previously aware of any prayer from the boy (or the father, for that matter).

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Let's say I pray to get better. And my mother next to me pray for me to get better. I get better. Who's prayer do you think was answered?

Playing Devil's Advocate and assuming prayers work, according to your stance, your prayer and your prayer alone.

But here's another hypothetical: Let's say you didn't pray to get better, and your mother next to you prayed for you to get better. If you got better, was your mother's prayer answered, or... again according to your previous statements... you must have become better through other means due to the fact that your concept of "God" would not violate your free will?

I am not a big fan of hypotheticals, Luk, so I will ask you point blank. Do you pray to get better every time you are sick? Do you then immediately get better, or is there time involved before you do? If the second is true, then you cannot definitively rule out that you got better naturally and on your own.

I get sick and get better all the time. I just had my gall bladder removed back in December. I recovered (quite quickly, too, compared to other people I know who had the same operation) without the aid of prayer.

edited "prove" to "rule out"
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 02:29:46 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #138 on: May 29, 2014, 02:49:52 PM »
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Anselm’s Ontological Argument[1]

(1) God is that than which no greater can be conceived.
(2) If God is that than which no greater can be conceived then there is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
Therefore:
(3) There is nothing greater than God that can be imagined.
(4) If God does not exist then there is something greater than God that can be imagined.
Therefore:
(5) God exists.
 1. from http://www.philosophyofreligion.info/theistic-proofs/the-ontological-argument/st-anselms-ontological-argument/

This is the argument, put into more modern English for the sake of us who find the old language hard.
Here's where it goes wrong in its logic.

1. A definition of what we want to get to starts us off. Really, we ought to arrive at that but still....

2. and 3. Here Anselm imagines god, so this god is in his brain and something imagined.

4. This is puzzling, since we have already defined this god as the greatest thing that can be imagined

5. So we decided in 2 and 3 and 4 that god was the greatest thing that can be imagined - i.e. god imagined in the brain. Without as a breath or a pause, we jump tracks. Suddenly, an idea in the brain exists outside the brain without any explanation, logic, reason. It just jumps.

It is the final stage, which Luk has been trying on us for ages that fails as there is to rhyme or reason to accept the logic of the final step.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #139 on: May 29, 2014, 04:21:48 PM »
I don't understand how that is even considered an argument. You could plug in anything for "god" and make it magically exist-- Brahma, Shango, Thor, Durga, Batman.  Why would anyone ever use that as evidence or proof? All you have "proved" is that you can play with words.

Magical zero calorie apple pie is the dessert so delicious that nothing better can be conceived......etc. so, where is my magical apple pie?

There is nothing whose real existence has been proven. That has been Lukvance's problem from the beginning. He is so desperate to make his invisible, immaterial, non-physical, do-nothing god exist in reality that he has to re-define "real" to include the imaginary. He has to justify why this god seems to have no effect on the world by bending free will into a logical pretzel. And then he has the nerve to try to argue! &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #140 on: May 29, 2014, 04:24:13 PM »
Is the pretzel salty?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #141 on: May 29, 2014, 05:35:54 PM »
Is the pretzel salty?

-Nam

Not as salty as you. :-*
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #142 on: May 29, 2014, 06:46:53 PM »
Are you saying that 
a. the benefits of prayer are for the person praying (maybe concentrating on other's problems and not their own) and for the person prayed for (so they feel that they are part of a sort of family and loved)
OR
b. That the above benefits apply but that god throws in his help to to start and fix problems? If so, what does he actually do. If not, then why pray at all - why not just ring up and sick person or go and visit them and tell them how much you care?
b. Praying help more than not praying and just doing. Knowing that the group was praying for me made me feel better. If they were to visit or ring me I might have used too much energy and felt differently. Plus it is cool to have the benefit of the prayer without having the time it requires me to do it. It's like a free bonus! Of course praying won't prevent you to call or visit. In fact, prayer might encourage you to call or visit more often.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #143 on: May 29, 2014, 07:35:35 PM »
Yes, you do I'm afraid. Here is one example from your OP:
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Everything have a beginning but one
Your stance is that "one" is synonymous with "God".
No, ""one" is synonymous with "God"" is my conclusion. From this conclusion I deduce that God is outside our brain.
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I am stopping you right here. Your comment "he would almost be right" is your personal opinion, just as the Muslim's claim that you "would be almost right" is also nothing more than personal opinion.

Indeed. Why stop me?
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You are completely missing the point that anyone at anytime can "one up" you (and vice-versa) with a definition of a "God" greater than yours.

Err, no. Continue to one up and at one point you will get to the true greatest being. You know that you can't "one up" perfection right?
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You are also being intellectually dishonest to suggest that your personal definition of "God" (the Christian version) is synonymous with a Muslim's personal definition of "Allah" (the Islamic version). They are not the same being by any stretch of the imagination.

They will be at the end of the discussion. (after all the "one ups")
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One: your opinion is subjective. Who are you to question the motives and means of "God" (Islamic or otherwise)?

I am the one imagining the perfect God. A greater God than the Islamic one what else than my opinion do you want?
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Two: a Muslim can turn around and point to the Christian God wiping out all of humanity except for 8 people during the Noah's Flood story, whereas in the Quran the Flood punishment only applied to certain, select communities who did not follow the Scriptures. Therefore Allah is greater in this example.

NO. I will argue with him that my God did not kill anyone. (Noah's story is not factual)
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The point again is you and everyone else who throws their hat in to the ring must defend your candidate for which "God" is "the greatest". You have not satisfied this requirement.

Yes I did :)
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I have asked you to defend it. Your response "According to me and examples found around the globe" is not an acceptable substitute for backing up your statement as fact. You are positioning yourself as a source of authority. I sincerely doubt you would have accepted such a similar response from myself or anyone else.
I should have start with "Do you know any other evidence of immaterial beings than philosophical evidence or testimony (personal opinion)?" Then I would've stated "Since no one seems to find/know any other evidence, could we agree that Philosophical conjecture and personal opinion does equate to evidence when you talk about immaterial beings?" Is that better? (the result is the same but this way I respect more your freedom)
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Now you are claiming there are "special cases" where violating one's free will on the behalf of another's prayer is acceptable. This is what is referred to as "shifting the goal posts".
Read the rest of my comments I clarify why it's a special case, and that in this case God is not violating one's free will.
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If the boy himself prayed for help, then 1) Jesus would of had no need to have the father pray to relieve himself of his unbelief first
Yes, he need to have the father pray. Maybe you never been to an exorcism before but what happen in those cases is that the evil spirit will try to enter whatever unfaithful body he would find. The father with his wavering faith was a target.
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2) they had brought to boy to Jesus, who... according to the story... had to ask what was wrong with the boy which can be deduced that he was not previously aware of any prayer from the boy (or the father, for that matter).
Or that he needed everyone to know what exactly was going on. Remember he was a teacher. Teachers usually knows the problem and the solution and ask the students to discover them "with him".
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But here's another hypothetical: Let's say you didn't pray to get better, and your mother next to you prayed for you to get better. If you got better, was your mother's prayer answered, or... again according to your previous statements... you must have become better through other means due to the fact that your concept of "God" would not violate your free will?
I must have become better through other means.
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I am not a big fan of hypotheticals, Luk, so I will ask you point blank. Do you pray to get better every time you are sick? Do you then immediately get better, or is there time involved before you do? If the second is true, then you cannot definitively rule out that you got better naturally and on your own.
Yes I pray to not get sick. When I am, I pray to get better. Sometime I did immediately get better, other time I didn't. I'm a man of science so usually I pray God to help me get better instead of asking him to cure me. I believe there are a finite amount of miracle he can do in my life, so I keep them for the real deal. I did try to get better "by myself" once (pills and doctors) and quickly realize that it wasn't fun for anyone (not me not the persons around me) I kept at it for a time that seemed long then gave up and prayed. I thought "why would I suffer and make others suffer just to prove God that I don't need him"
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I get sick and get better all the time. I just had my gall bladder removed back in December. I recovered (quite quickly, too, compared to other people I know who had the same operation) without the aid of prayer.

The difference I have from the testimony of my Doctor friends is that people that pray are usually more enjoyable than the others. Even if there are some who pray and are still grumpy they say.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #144 on: May 29, 2014, 07:39:11 PM »
Here's where it goes wrong in its logic.
[...]
It is the final stage, which Luk has been trying on us for ages that fails as there is to rhyme or reason to accept the logic of the final step.
Could you do the same thing with my proof? Since I am claiming that my proof and his are not the same.
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