Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 15426 times)

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2014, 03:35:11 AM »
Ah but god gives you the choice to believe in him. if he provided evidence of his existence you would no longer have free will to believe something there is no proof for ....i think that's how it works, search me???
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2014, 03:49:22 AM »
Well, I'm sure that's the excuse that will be used but it remains the case that if the supposed god cannot interact with the material world we

a. cannot know of his existence

b. it would not be the god Christians claim to know as they say their god interacts with the world via prayer and actual changes to the material world like healing people for example.

No, if anyone claims a god that ineracts with the world, then it should not be much of a job to prove it. Of course, if this god is only an idea in the brains of believers......
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline median

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2014, 03:51:34 AM »
Can one of you prove that something immaterial can exists outside the human mind?

This question has no meaning because I have no idea what you are talking about when you use the term "immaterial". It has never been demonstrated to me that such a term is even logically coherent (let alone that it could be demonstrated as actual).
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2014, 03:55:26 AM »
Ah but god gives you the choice to believe in him. if he provided evidence of his existence you would no longer have free will to believe something there is no proof for ....i think that's how it works, search me???

So Satan had no freewill?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2014, 04:03:12 AM »
^ Well god created satan and sin for a reason. if satan did not choose sin the whole fukin book would be pointless... what then huh, if satan did not choose sin he prolly did it out of a sense of duty to god so god would have a book to sell and start his religion with.
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2014, 04:43:43 AM »
Hello all,
There is this question that comes really often during the course of my other discussion and it is beginning to seriously impede the evolution of the discussion.
So does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains? Yes
How can you prove it?
The same way you prove the existence of something immaterial as a separate entity - separate from human brains. Through it's definition.
Or using the ontological argument.

No.

When we look at a real thing, reports of it tend to narrow towards a single story as the picture gets clearer. Is that what happens when we examine reports about gods?

No. When we examine reports about gods, the stories tend to diverge to the point where just about every believer has their own personal version different from all the others.

Where else do we see this same divergence effect? In the examination of subjective phenomenon where people are free to make up anything they like.
Denis Loubet

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2014, 08:13:13 AM »
Does anybody else find it... "strange" that Luk appears hesitant to participate in a thread he himself created? There have been multiple, well-thought out responses to his OP, and yet his only response so far was to basically ask us to answer his own question:

Can one of you prove that something immaterial can exists outside the human mind?

I suggest we stop attempting to address this. Let him dig himself out of the hole he dug for himself.

Perhaps we should ask Lucy to materialize and show us the lunch money She took from Yahweh.   ;D

While in a coffee-induced state of oneness with the universe, my Goddess, Lucy Intheskywithdiamonds, had told me that besides the $5.75 and a book he borrowed from the library ("Creation for Dummies"), he also had on his possession a glossy 4x6 signed photograph of himself he apparently was just about to miracle down to Earth. It reads: "To my #1 fan, Lukvance. Thanks for thinking me in to existence! You're the best! God.".
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2014, 09:03:32 AM »
Agreed. let's leave this one for Luk to reply to. He has been doing the same stuff on the 'cloak and dagger' thread but it won't hurt him to post here.

Note to Luk.

If you don't respond soon, we are all going to assume you have nothing to say and no evidence to present and you accept that your god resides in your head only as one of your thoughts. That leaves your religion pointless of course...
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2014, 01:56:46 PM »
Beside testimony and logic there are no other evidence for the existence of something immaterial outside your brain.
I gave you testimony.
I gave you logic proof.
What more do you want? The impossible? The thing that even yourself cannot conceive?
You want me to respond to what? I don't see any question.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2014, 02:20:30 PM »
Beside testimony and logic there are no other evidence for the existence of something immaterial outside your brain.
I gave you testimony.
I gave you logic proof.
What more do you want? The impossible? The thing that even yourself cannot conceive?
You want me to respond to what? I don't see any question.

You were the one who felt compelled to create this thread. You were the one attempting to provide an answer in the affirmative to your question "Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?". You were the one who, in your OP, said "How can you prove it?", followed by examples that you believed backed up your claim.

Those examples were then soundly shown to be nothing more than philosophical conjecture on your part by multiple posters who had independently arrived at the same conclusions.

So, either defend your original statements or admit that there are no testable and verifiable means to prove your assertation that your God does indeed exist as a separate entity separate from human brains.

As for giving us "logic proof", all you gave us was though excercises that make sense only to yourself.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2014, 02:35:20 PM »
Not quite. I gave you logical proof that need to be refuted if you want me to accept they are not proof of the existence of God.
Your "philosophical conjecture" doesn't mean it is not proof.
I am ready to debate their veracity if you want but as you might know these do not have a definite answer because you are asking for proof of something immaterial to exist outside of our brain. And you know that only one thing answer this definition. God.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2014, 02:40:03 PM »
Not quite. I gave you logical proof that need to be refuted if you want me to accept they are not proof of the existence of God.
Your "philosophical conjecture" doesn't mean it is not proof.
I am ready to debate their veracity if you want but as you might know these do not have a definite answer because you are asking for proof of something immaterial to exist outside of our brain. And you know that only one thing answer this definition. God.

So you have ignored my post which would help us all with this question. Could you answer the points below now so we know where things are going, please?

Quote
Well, I'm sure that's the excuse that will be used but it remains the case that if the supposed god cannot interact with the material world we

a. cannot know of his existence

b. it would not be the god Christians claim to know as they say their god interacts with the world via prayer and actual changes to the material world like healing people for example.

No, if anyone claims a god that interacts with the world, then it should not be much of a job to prove it. Of course, if this god is only an idea in the brains of believers......

Thanks
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2014, 02:48:18 PM »
I did not ignore any post. I don't see any questions asked in the quote you gave us.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2014, 02:58:56 PM »
Not quite. I gave you logical proof that need to be refuted if you want me to accept they are not proof of the existence of God.
Your "philosophical conjecture" doesn't mean it is not proof.
I am ready to debate their veracity if you want but as you might know these do not have a definite answer because you are asking for proof of something immaterial to exist outside of our brain. .

Your philosophical conjecture does not equate to proof. I have already refuted each and every point you had made in your OP. If you disagree with my rebuttal, you will have to explain why, point by point. Get cracking.

The ball is now once again in your court.

Quote
And you know that only one thing answer this definition. God

That's quite a bold statement on your part. It's also completely erroneous.

Here's one of my own: You have presented no proof God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2014, 03:09:22 PM »
You did not refute anything. You expressed your disagreement with what I said. Oh wait, that wasn't you. Sorry.
You didn't give me enough proof to debunk my proofs.
Call it Lucy, I'll call it God. The name "god" is slapped on whatever fits the definition.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2014, 03:16:16 PM »
You did not refute anything. You expressed your disagreement with what I said. Oh wait, that wasn't you. Sorry.
You didn't give me enough proof to debunk my proofs.

Not good enough. Explain why I failed to debunk your proofs. Point by point.

Quote
Call it Lucy, I'll call it God. The name "god" is slapped on whatever fits the definition.

And this explains "Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?" how again? It doesn't.

Try again.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2014, 04:02:58 PM »
I can try as much as I want. As long a you don't know what you want I will try in vain.
What kind of evidence will you prove you the existence of something immaterial existing outside your brain?
If you say none, then you should accept the evidence that I brought you as enough.
You're worth more than my time

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2014, 04:08:57 PM »
I can try as much as I want. As long a you don't know what you want I will try in vain.
What kind of evidence will you prove you the existence of something immaterial existing outside your brain?
If you say none, then you should accept the evidence that I brought you as enough.

Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence. The same standards we hold our scientists to when presenting any claim.

The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2014, 04:12:43 PM »
I can try as much as I want. As long a you don't know what you want I will try in vain.
What kind of evidence will you prove you the existence of something immaterial existing outside your brain?
If you say none, then you should accept the evidence that I brought you as enough.

As I have pointed out -

This immaterial thing can either

a. Interact with the material world - like you say your god can

OR

b. Cannot interact with the material world.

To prove your god comes into a. which I presume you do, simply demonstrate that your god can interact with the material world. You could do this lots of ways, for example

1. Show how a person supposedly healed by god was actually healed, in other words, what actual actions did god make that changed the body to heal it. (for this one it is no use saying that we don't know as that could be the body healing itself without outside intervention).

2. In regards to prayer, lots of people claim to hear god reply in some way to their prayers and, presumably, god must be able to hear the payers too. Show by what means messages - either in the brain as chemical / electrical signals or words spoken get to an immaterial god or, slightly simpler, show how  a person 'hears' a reply which must interact with the brain tissue in some way.

I'm sure you could think of other ideas but there's a couple to start on.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2014, 04:29:04 PM »
I can try as much as I want. As long a you don't know what you want I will try in vain.
What kind of evidence will you prove you the existence of something immaterial existing outside your brain?
If you say none, then you should accept the evidence that I brought you as enough.

You are telling us that there is a being or force that is more powerful than anything human beings can create, more powerful than a nuclear bomb, that interacts with humans on a regular basis. However, this force or being does not want people to know about it, so it leaves no physical trace? There is no way to detect this force or being, even as it goes into people's brains and makes them behave better, makes them feel happier, cures dandruff, heals the odd cancer?

If it interacts with people, than it can be detected in some way. It can be measured in some way. It can be tested in some way to show that it was god and not something else.

Lukvance, you are saying that the interactions of god are 1) imaginary, or 2) so small that they cannot be detected, or 3)consisting of normal everyday things that anyone can do--like not bumping into furniture. 

The universe looks kind of the way it would look if there was no god. There is still no reason to think that there is any supernatural powerful god doing anything, anywhere. There is certainly no reason to think that your particular god is doing anything, anywhere.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2014, 04:49:45 PM »
Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence. The same standards we hold our scientists to when presenting any claim.

Alright, how did scientist prove the existence of "1"? using Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence? I'm not so sure.
What about the existence of mathematics?  using Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence? Not so sure either.
They found out that it existed and gave it a name. That's it.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2014, 05:02:11 PM »
No they invented maths in their mind, it just so happens to be used to label real things.  one rabbit is not the number one. .
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2014, 05:03:36 PM »
This immaterial thing can either
a. Interact with the material world - like you say your god can
OR
b. Cannot interact with the material world.
I'm incline to say b) But there is this "God made it all" thing. So, he wrote the code of everything and hit run.
Quote
I'm sure you could think of other ideas but there's a couple to start on.
Thank you.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2014, 05:10:45 PM »
If it interacts with people, than it can be detected in some way. It can be measured in some way. It can be tested in some way
Like what else? I can't think of anything immaterial that could.
Quote
to show that it was god and not something else.
What if the something else was just a consequence of God's will?

Quote
Lukvance, you are saying that the interactions of god are 1) imaginary, or 2) so small that they cannot be detected, or 3)consisting of normal everyday things that anyone can do--like not bumping into furniture.
4) Indirect would be a better word.

Quote
The universe looks kind of the way it would look if there was no god. There is still no reason to think that there is any supernatural powerful god doing anything, anywhere. There is certainly no reason to think that your particular god is doing anything, anywhere.
How do you know that? Can you compare it with another universe? When I look at the Universe and how well balanced (or unbalanced) it is, I think there must be a "code writer" behind the scene.
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2014, 05:10:51 PM »
Alright, how did scientist prove the existence of "1"? using Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence? I'm not so sure.

"I'm not so sure"? Either they did or they didn't. Which one is it? This might help you out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method

Quote
What about the existence of mathematics?  using Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence? Not so sure either.
They found out that it existed and gave it a name. That's it.
I really suggest you become familiar with an example before you chose to use it to make a point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics

You can really save us all a lot of time and frustration by admitting that your concept of "God" cannot be proven through the scientific method (which goes beyond philosophical conjecture) to exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

Go ahead and try it yourself. Run your "God" through the scientific method and see if he meets the same standard that scientists are held to when investigating and testing a new claim.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2014, 05:15:06 PM »
The housework won't do itself, so I'll leave others to carry on the conversation for the time being.

I will state my stance again. Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence is what I am asking for.
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2014, 05:46:28 PM »
Quote
Alright, how did scientist prove the existence of "1"? using Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence? I'm not so sure.
"I'm not so sure"? Either they did or they didn't. Which one is it? This might help you out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method
This is not proof that they did.

Quote
Quote
What about the existence of mathematics?  using Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence? Not so sure either.
They found out that it existed and gave it a name. That's it.
I really suggest you become familiar with an example before you chose to use it to make a point:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics
What do you mean? This link is the Testable. Measurable. Quantifiable. Verifiable evidence?

Quote
You can really save us all a lot of time and frustration by admitting that your concept of "God" cannot be proven through the scientific method (which goes beyond philosophical conjecture) to exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
I could. But I want you to realize first that nothing immaterial can be proven that way.
So, accept that nothing immaterial can be proven using Testable, Measurable, Quantifiable, Verifiable evidence and we can move back to my first statement. The existence of God by it's definition.
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Offline Lukvance

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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2014, 06:00:21 PM »
Oh! Just found that Video. Just on time. Math is everything? :)
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Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2014, 06:38:45 PM »
So, math is god? I thought love was god. God made the universe out of math?

Is everything immaterial god? I am now really confused. What is god, again? And why should we care?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.