Author Topic: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?  (Read 12193 times)

0 Members and 6 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1854
  • Darwins +13/-241
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Hello all,
There is this question that comes really often during the course of my other discussion and it is beginning to seriously impede the evolution of the discussion.
So does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains? Yes
How can you prove it?
The same way you prove the existence of something immaterial as a separate entity - separate from human brains. Through it's definition.
Or using the ontological argument.
If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
Or using the start of everything.
Everything have a beginning but one. This one is called God and is the beginning of everything he must exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains since they were not created yet.
Or using the "bad" in the world.
Nothing can be made without consequences. What would happen to a child rapist who committed suicide right after raping the child? God (an entity external to our brain) must exist to execute his judgement.
Or using the design argument.
There is more order than chaos in what you see everyday. There must be something that thought about the laws of everything. That "thing" is God and is outside your mind (he made it)
You're worth more than my time

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2014, 10:49:18 AM »
Hello all,
There is this question that comes really often during the course of my other discussion and it is beginning to seriously impede the evolution of the discussion.
So does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains? Yes
How can you prove it?
The same way you prove the existence of something immaterial as a separate entity - separate from human brains. Through it's definition.


Circular reasoning.


Or using the ontological argument.



Circular reasoning.



If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality.



Circular reasoning.





Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
Or using the start of everything.



Circular reasoning.


Everything have a beginning but one.

Special Pleading


This one is called God and is the beginning of everything he must exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains since they were not created yet.


Circular Reasoning

Or using the "bad" in the world.
Nothing can be made without consequences. What would happen to a child rapist who committed suicide right after raping the child? God (an entity external to our brain) must exist to execute his judgement.

Ignoring the definition of Omnicience



Or using the design argument.
There is more order than chaos in what you see everyday. There must be something that thought about the laws of everything. That "thing" is God and is outside your mind (he made it)


Circular Argument, Ignoring the Counter evidence, Appeal to your own credulity, Equivocation(Deist God does not equal Interventionist God)


I still am puzzled, are you really this stupid, or a troll?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11908
  • Darwins +298/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2014, 11:02:49 AM »
I think he's a troll. Has he ever really answered anyone's questions?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2014, 11:36:25 AM »
I think he's a troll. Has he ever really answered anyone's questions?

-Nam

He does, but waffles and weasels out when the obvious conclusion is that God has no more substance than the dragons of Skyrim.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Darwins +54/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2014, 11:42:39 AM »
The same way you prove the existence of something immaterial as a separate entity - separate from human brains. Through it's definition.

Here is where your argument falters right from the very start. Applying "definitions" are nothing more than a method developed by human beings to describe material or immaterial objects or concepts in order to prevent said objects and or concepts to be confused with some other object and or concept. For a "definition" to be useful, it should (needs to) be broadly if not universally agreed upon to prevent confusion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/definition

A "definition" does not in of itself provide "something immaterial" the ability to be an actual entity separate from a human brain.

And in regards to "God", you can't even get past the problem of providing a definition for said entity that is universally agreed upon. So, my advice is to get cracking getting the rest of humanity to accept your personal definition of this "God" before you even attempt to prove the existence of said personal "God".

Quote
Or using the ontological argument.
If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

I just envisioned a God (I call her Lucy) that can beat up your God, take his lunch money and give him a wet willie for good measure. She therefore must also exist in reality, right? Hey, these are your rules, not mine.

See "Gaunilo" under the "Criticisms and objections":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontological_argument

Your ontological argument is nothing more than a philosophical exercise that fails to provide tangible evidence to back up your claims.

Quote
Or using the start of everything.
Everything have a beginning but one. This one is called God and is the beginning of everything he must exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains since they were not created yet.

All this according to your personal definition of your God, which I have already explained does not impart this immaterial concept with an existence separate from the human brain.

Quote
Or using the "bad" in the world.
Nothing can be made without consequences. What would happen to a child rapist who committed suicide right after raping the child? God (an entity external to our brain) must exist to execute his judgement.

Wash, rinse, repeat. All this according to your personal definition of your God, which I have already explained does not impart this immaterial concept with an existence separate from the human brain.

Quote
Or using the design argument.
There is more order than chaos in what you see everyday. There must be something that thought about the laws of everything. That "thing" is God and is outside your mind (he made it)

Personal opinion and nothing more.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 11:44:45 AM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2014, 02:17:52 PM »
Hello all,
There is this question that comes really often during the course of my other discussion and it is beginning to seriously impede the evolution of the discussion.
So does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains? Yes
How can you prove it?
The same way you prove the existence of something immaterial as a separate entity - separate from human brains. Through it's definition.

Yeah.  Forget that pesky "evidence" that you're repeatedly asked for, just go for some more word-play.  THAT'LL convince us.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2443
  • Darwins +106/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2014, 03:07:03 PM »
Well, tell us, Luk, tell us of something immaterial that you can prove exists outwith the human mind. Any example will do so don't worry what it is, It just has to be something immaterial.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2014, 03:16:40 PM »
This is the work of a troll.
Signature goes here...

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6406
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2014, 05:26:25 PM »
I just imagined a god who killed Lukvance's god using a special imaginary martial arts technique I also made up. We are done here.  ;D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Darwins +54/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2014, 05:43:18 PM »
I just imagined a god who killed Lukvance's god using a special imaginary martial arts technique I also made up. We are done here.  ;D

Jew jitsu?  :angel:
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2014, 06:50:45 PM »
Jew jitsu BWAHA
Signature goes here...

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Darwins +54/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 06:54:32 PM »
Thankyew! Thankyew! I'll be here all week! Don't forget to tip your waitress server! 8)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2014, 07:42:39 PM by Disciple of Sagan »
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11908
  • Darwins +298/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 07:38:12 PM »
Thankyew! Thankyew! I'll be here all week! Don't forget to tip your waitress! 8)

Ummm...they're called "servers". Don't be sexist.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Darwins +54/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2014, 07:43:05 PM »
Ummm...they're called "servers". Don't be sexist.

Fixed. :)
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11908
  • Darwins +298/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2014, 07:58:15 PM »
Ummm...they're called "servers". Don't be sexist.

Fixed. :)

Sexist!

I keed, I keed

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2014, 09:07:24 PM »
Hello all,
There is this question that comes really often during the course of my other discussion and it is beginning to seriously impede the evolution of the discussion.
So does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains? Yes
How can you prove it?
The same way you prove the existence of something immaterial as a separate entity - separate from human brains. Through it's definition.
Or using the ontological argument.
If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.
Or using the start of everything.
Everything have a beginning but one. This one is called God and is the beginning of everything he must exist as a separate entity - separate from human brains since they were not created yet.
Or using the "bad" in the world.
Nothing can be made without consequences. What would happen to a child rapist who committed suicide right after raping the child? God (an entity external to our brain) must exist to execute his judgement.
Or using the design argument.
There is more order than chaos in what you see everyday. There must be something that thought about the laws of everything. That "thing" is God and is outside your mind (he made it)

So you can prove, then, that Santa Claus exists merely by defining him as existing? No, sorry. FAIL. Things are not demonstrated to independently exist merely by "saying so". This is your bullshit belief and it has no basis in fact, since anyone can merely SAY (define) whatever mythical thing they want to. It does not logically follow that such things exist independently of human conception. So once again, you are using irrational arguments (and you know better).

Second, you have raised (but not presented or defended) the ontological argument, the cosmological argument, the moral argument, and the design argument. And ever single one of these arguments fails.


Ontological Argument - This argument fails for the same reason your "because I say so" argument about miracles or a god fails. You cannot merely define something into actual independent existence. Merely engaging in linguistic construction does not make something real or actual. So merely CLAIMING that because you can think of a specific "great" being doesn't prove that there is such a thing. This argument is ad hoc at best.


Cosmological Argument - You say, "Everything have a beginning but one" but you didn't prove it. Again, this is just more of your "because I say so" bullshit. The Cosmological Argument fails miserably at demonstrating a God for many reasons. 1) The term "God" is not coherently define and has been consistently shown to be vacuous and meaningless in it's application. 2) Even if our local universe had a beginning that does not mean that there are not other universes in existence or that a magic "God" is a sufficient explanation. There are numerous possibilities. Merely asserting "because I say it must be God" is childish. You don't win by default.

The "Bad in the World" Moral Argument - Just because harm happens in the world, it does not follow that there must be some father "judge". But you didn't even attempt to defend this argument. All you did (as is so common with you) is ASSERT IT with out evidence. Again, "because I say so" = FAIL. The fact that actions have consequences (such as a rapist being sent to jail) says nothing about a deity god "thing".

Design Argument - "There must be a thinking god. Therefore there is one" is your argument? Really? That's pathetic dude. This is just more "because I say so" fallacy. Again, your saying it is so doesn't make it so. You need to actually DEMONSTRATE your claims - not just claim them as fact a priori. The design argument fails because you haven't demonstrated that anything IS designed. All you've done is said that they look designed to you. But science is not about your personal opinions of what "looks" like design. Our planet is the only one that we know of that is even remotely OK for life. Everywhere else (including most of our planet btw) is hostile to life (like outer space, black holes, other galaxies, etc). If anything, the universe is good for death and killing life (or at least not permitting it). This argument is not sound because it doesn't present a designer. It merely asserts what it needs to prove.

It's really too bad that you can't come up with anything better than just words to demonstrate your alleged invisible God. Could that be because your God is imaginary fiction?


Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2014, 09:15:26 PM »
Oh shoot, there is one Jewish guy at my work and i made a crack about jew jitsu...... he did not see the funny side while i was lmao in front of a bunch of people who were not laughing.


THANKS DOS or should it be disciple of fuking evil !!!
Signature goes here...

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Darwins +54/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2014, 09:19:28 PM »
Oh shoot, there is one Jewish guy at my work and i made a crack about jew jitsu...... he did not see the funny side while i was lmao in front of a bunch of people who were not laughing.


THANKS DOS or should it be disciple of fuking evil !!!

That's "Miss Disciple of Fucking Evil". ;)

Seriously, though. I'm actually surprised that someone would find that offensive. It's not saying anything derogatory about Jewish people. :-\
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2014, 09:27:25 PM »
All good i will say something offensive about Muslims to him and cheer him up.
Signature goes here...

Offline stuffin

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 731
  • Darwins +26/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2014, 09:30:02 PM »
.
If the greatest possible being exists in the mind, it must also exist in reality. If it only exists in the mind, a greater being is possible—one which exists in the mind and in reality. Of course he would exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains.

Ya know, you conflict yourself. You say, because he exists in the mind he exists, but ("of course") he exists separate from that mind.

How can something be and not be at the same time? Shit he's god, I keep forgetting.

Sorry for questioning, you are right again......  :-X
I'd cut him if he stands, and I'd shoot him if he'd run
 Yes I'd kill him with my Bible and my razor and my gun

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle

Offline Disciple of Sagan

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 934
  • Darwins +54/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Current mood: Malcontent
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #20 on: May 25, 2014, 09:32:40 PM »
All good i will say something offensive about Muslims to him and cheer him up.

Out of curiosity, did he say why he found it offensive? I honestly don't see how it could be. :-\
The cosmos is also within us. We are made of star stuff.

The only thing bigger than the universe is humanity's collective sense of self-importance.

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2014, 09:42:20 PM »
I will ask when he cools down. being the only Jew. in redneck country prolly amplifies small things.
Signature goes here...

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2014, 09:44:32 PM »
BTW i will tell him the joke was yr idea, i am. clearly the victim here.  just take one for the team...
Signature goes here...

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1854
  • Darwins +13/-241
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2014, 11:51:02 PM »
Well, tell us, Luk, tell us of something immaterial that you can prove exists outwith the human mind. Any example will do so don't worry what it is, It just has to be something immaterial.
That's a good question. I can't think of any proof but testimonial of other people.
You're worth more than my time

Offline Lukvance

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1854
  • Darwins +13/-241
  • Gender: Male
  • Catholic
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2014, 11:51:56 PM »
Can one of you prove that something immaterial can exists outside the human mind?
You're worth more than my time

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #25 on: May 26, 2014, 12:14:34 AM »
Nope
Signature goes here...

Online eh!

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1272
  • Darwins +40/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • jimmy hendrix is jesus
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #26 on: May 26, 2014, 12:16:51 AM »
Oh wait, i will help you out here luk.... gravity. ....so god is gravity ....and love.


Gravity is omnipresent to and look at all the converts to gravity that are happy so it must be true. to rebel against gravity is futile so it is all powerful and if you defy gravity you will die or just brake bones so hell is rebelling against gravity which puts hurt on you but if you obey graviity you are not hurt si gravity is all loving.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 12:23:34 AM by eh! »
Signature goes here...

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2972
  • Darwins +256/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #27 on: May 26, 2014, 12:47:03 AM »
Can one of you prove that something immaterial can exists outside the human mind?

How does one prove the existence of something that leaves no trace whatsoever in the physical universe, and that can only be "seen" with the imagination?  More importantly, how does one determine that it "exists" but that imaginary things do not?  At this point, I really can't tell the difference.

Perhaps we should ask Lucy to materialize and show us the lunch money She took from Yahweh.   ;D
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline wheels5894

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2443
  • Darwins +106/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Does God exists as a separate entity - separate from human brains?
« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2014, 03:22:54 AM »
Can one of you prove that something immaterial can exists outside the human mind?

How does one prove the existence of something that leaves no trace whatsoever in the physical universe, and that can only be "seen" with the imagination?  More importantly, how does one determine that it "exists" but that imaginary things do not?  At this point, I really can't tell the difference.

Perhaps we should ask Lucy to materialize and show us the lunch money She took from Yahweh.   ;D

Well then, how do we prove something non-material exists? It's a good question and which Luk hasn't really an answer. There are, it seems to me, two possibilities here -

1. Something non-material exists. It cannot interact with the material world in any way. If this is the case for anything from a ghost to a god, then it follows that we cannot know of its existence - since we could never have contact with it - and it follows that any speculation on the existence is just that, speculation without evidence as evidence is not possible. Of course, if the object is a god, then that god is about as much use as the deist god and just about as in need of worship.

2. The non-material object can and does inter-act with the material world. in this case it ought to be simple to show that inter-action takes place and one can, by that means, demonstrate that the object exists. If it is a god, one ought to be able establish something about it. The claims by theists come into this category. They say they pray to their god and that he answers them, either in words or in actions. So, for theists, this should be easy to show.

So, that's how I see the job shaping up. Any happy theist like to show their god exists, that's how to do it.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)